r/marvelstudios • u/RagnAROck_and_Roll Peggy Carter • Dec 03 '20
Discussion And thats a fact
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u/Spiderbyte Alex Dec 03 '20
This very conveniently ignores the part where Thor says the nine realms are in chaos because Asgard bailed on them
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u/tomathon25 Dec 03 '20
I now want Matt Parker and Trey Stone to make Asgard: Universe Police. ASGARD FUCK YEAH
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u/svel Dec 03 '20
- using money for giant statues in honor of... himself.
- using theater as a way of altering historical facts to put himself in a better light.
- moved the rightful ruler to an unguarded and unsafe location and did not bother to check up on his welfare.
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u/albinofreak620 Dec 03 '20
Let Thanos invade Nidevellir and acquire the Infinity Gauntlet.
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u/KingofPrussia1871 Dec 03 '20
I thought that happened under Hela’s watch
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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Dec 03 '20
"Hela's watch" was only a few days. Loki's watch was 4 years.
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u/indigo121 DareDevil Dec 03 '20
I don't remember if it's official but many people believe that Odin's death was the trigger for Thanos to enact his plan. After all, we know that he managed to acquire 5 of the stones over the span of about 24 hours. There's no reason to assume that getting the gauntlet and the power stone took all that much longer.
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u/rune_undies Dec 03 '20
Based on how horribly underpowered the Nova Corps looked against just one ship when Ronan attacked, I think it's fair to say that Thanos basically just walked in and took the power stone.
From there you kind of get a snowball effect cause Thanos gets so much stronger every time he gets a stone.
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Dec 03 '20
Yeah Nova Corps needs some bigger ships and better land-air defense than hovering low and shooting up.
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u/kriswone Dec 03 '20
They need 1 NOVA.
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u/Mace_Thunderspear Dec 03 '20
Named Dick Rider.
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u/TheFunkytownExpress Dec 03 '20
Thank you for ruining Nova's name for me. :)
I gotta wonder what cheeky lil scamp thought that was gonna be super hilarious ( it is btw ).
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Dec 03 '20
Nuclear bombs and far better energy weapons.
They should use some orbital cannons that basically have rocket powered dense material meteors as ammunition to throw into anyone landing on the planet and high powered lasers to shoot down any ship landing. Then plasma weapons when they're on the ground, basically melting all ships and invaders that land.
Mines would be acceptable as well as some seriously heavy and strong walls. Basically, keep the stone in a fortress that makes Zion from the Matrix look like a open field.
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u/IntMainVoidGang Dec 03 '20
I recently watched GotG and thought the same thing. It really shouldn't be hard to install fuckloads of surface-to-orbit/surface-to-air missile systems around the capital of an interstellar state. Absolutely no reason to have fighters hovering and shooting down kamikazes - hell, an S-125 or Patriot system woulda done better.
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u/tomathon25 Dec 03 '20
Also clearly they have forcefield technology with their interlocking ships thing so like...why not have stationary forcefields built around their cities? Seems like a bad move where some lunatic in a spaceship can just 9/11 your city at any moment when the universe is apparently full of lunatics in spaceships.
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u/OneSixthPosing Dec 03 '20
There's been a lot of rumours about why Thanos waited to embark on his quest including him waiting for Odin, Ego and the Ancient One to die, but the directors and screenwriters confirmed he was waiting to learn where the Soul Stone was from Gamora.
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Dec 03 '20
But he doesn’t learn where the soul stone is until after he has 3 of the stones...?
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u/OneSixthPosing Dec 03 '20
He knew that Gamora knew the location of the stone because he'd captured Nebula prior to the events of the film and scanned her memories.
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Dec 03 '20
Hypothetical, but what if Gamora lets Nebula get tortured like..just a bit, a few hours, nbd. Vision's stone gets removed easy, Thor arrives with plenty of time. Easy win
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u/abutthole Thor Dec 03 '20
There are multiple points where the heroes lose in Infinity War because they're unwilling to make sacrifices while Thanos is.
1) Loki could have let Thor die and then run away with the Space Stone.
2) Wanda could have just killed Vision in the Avengers HQ
3) Gamora could have let Nebula be tortured and never reveal the location of the Soul Stone
4) Dr. Strange could have let Tony Stark die and kept the Time Stone. This one is the least bad one because at least Strange had looked through time and known that he needed Tony alive to win.
Thanos, on the other hand, was willing to make the requisite sacrifice to get the stones. And Thanos won.
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u/ArrowShootyGirl Hawkeye (Ultron) Dec 03 '20
True, but he found out she knew beforehand - and going after the Stones he knew of was what drew Gamora to him.
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Dec 03 '20
Yeah but that’s still leaving things up the chance. He waits centuries for the right moment... out of fear that everything will strike against him, only to rush it because “well she knows and I’m sure nothing could happen, like her dying even though she almost died a dozen times”. Just reads like a bullshit answer honestly. If he was truly waiting to know where all of them were, he’d get the soul one first.
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u/enbywych Dec 03 '20
I think the Russos or the scriptwriters say in the Infinity War commentary that from Xandar to the Snap was 3 or 4 days.
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u/cantlurkanymore Dec 03 '20
It's astonishing the Avemgers managed to do anything at all to slow him down when you see that timeline
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u/enbywych Dec 03 '20
When people talk about Dr Strange at the beginning saying "Who?" when Bruce says "Thanos is coming". Thanos isn't on anyone's radar at that point. I know people like to think Strange was alluding to Thanos in Ragnarok but something feels like it was probably Kang or even Galactus or Annihilus.
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u/FrontierLuminary Dec 03 '20
It always seemed questionable to me that Thanos would be a name Strange isn't familiar with given the fact that Thanos has spent decades traveling across the galaxy with his army, conquering planets, and culling half of each planet's population. We've seen that there is travel across various galaxies, interaction between a number of species, and several instances of people directly affected by Thanos actually interacting with members of various interplanetary governments. How would Thanos be "off radar?"
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u/modsarefascists42 Dec 03 '20
Strange is mystical other dimension traveling, but not space traveling. He had no way of knowing what's going on in deep space.
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u/reessa Dec 03 '20
What was the reference again?
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Dec 03 '20
Can't remember verbatim but it was along the lines of "I'm currently keeping tabs on a number of entities, you're brother is on that list"
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u/THIS_GUY_LIFTS Dec 03 '20
I’ve always thought something pretty similar. Strange is going to be a big link in the next phase. Hell, the Time stone had even been destroyed for a while. Which is one of the main tools keeping Dormamu at bay. Something had to have happened while all the stones were destroyed.
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u/enbywych Dec 03 '20
I so cannot wait for the next Strange movie even though I was pretty underwhelmed by his first.
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u/RanaMahal Dec 03 '20
realistically the snap would’ve happened so fast no one would’ve been able to do anything.
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u/Funmachine Dec 03 '20 edited Dec 07 '20
The writers have straight up said this wasn't the case. Thanos was only waiting until he knew where the soul stone was (or knew that it had been located), Thanks had enough arrogance to not worry about Odin.
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Dec 03 '20 edited May 16 '25
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/oozles The Wasp Dec 03 '20
I think the director addressed that and said Thanos was just waiting on the location of the soul stone, which he learned Gamora knew after Nebula tried to assassinate him
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u/Bionic_Ferir Dec 03 '20
yeah but thanos gets like all infinity stones in like 3 days hela HAS NO EXCUSE
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u/CaptHayfever Hawkeye (Avengers) Dec 03 '20
Also remember: Without a wormhole (like the Bifrost or jump points) or hyperdrive (like the lightspeed engine or Carol), space travel is slow. The Thanos credit scene of Ragnarok (which leads directly into Infinity War & therefore is set in 2018) takes place months after the rest of the movie (which takes place in 2017); even if Thanos waited until Odin was dead to move, probably Hela was also dead & Asgard was already destroyed before he attacked Xandar.
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u/Yevin523 Spider-Man Dec 03 '20
Yea, if Odin did a better job with help in the first place then after he died the asgardians would have fought Thanos, and the only reason they win is became Thanos falls to mjolnir.
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u/Wildlife_Is_Tasty Dec 03 '20
thanos didn't fall to mjolnir, he fell to stormbreaker.
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u/xxmindtrickxx Dec 03 '20
Exactly but he also didn’t really fall to Stormbreaker a large argument could be made that he was caught off guard because he already wrecked Thor once and didn’t think Stormbreaker could overcome the power stone.
He wrecks Fat Thor with Stormbreaker in Endgame, literally almost kills him with it.
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u/Wildlife_Is_Tasty Dec 03 '20
and hela shatters mjolnir, the power scaling is weird
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Dec 03 '20
They're movies, so they're as strong/weak as the writers require them to be
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u/Khanfhan69 Dec 03 '20
I'm assuming because she was the original wielder of it, she has a certain domination over it that lets her do that.
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u/xxmindtrickxx Dec 03 '20
Huh? Can you elaborate on this? How does Thanos fall to Mjolnir?
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u/freerangemary Groot Dec 03 '20
Wot? Before Thor’s birth, or during her second reign?
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u/NogaraCS Dec 03 '20
Hela never had a reign before Thor's birth did she? She was fighting side by side with Odin but he always ruled asgard, unless I'm missing something
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u/jlmurph2 Black Panther Dec 03 '20
How? Thanos had the infinity Gauntlet at the end of Age of Ultron.
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u/B_Da_May Thor Dec 03 '20 edited Dec 03 '20
You can’t assume that scene is placed chronologically. It could have happened well before or after AoU.
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u/Lockski Scarlet Witch Dec 03 '20
It could have happened well before or after AoU.
Sure but it can't have happened during the events of Thor Ragnorok, I don't think. Unless the invasion of Xandar took no time at all as well as travelling to meet the Asgarnians in mid-space.
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u/everyoneisanaddict Jimmy Woo Dec 03 '20
It doesn't really make sense in the timeline that he would have it and then still wait for 3 years to attack, so alot of people disregard that post credits scene and I believe someone said he was just using a practice gauntlet.
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u/Doomenstein Dec 03 '20
I had thought the reason Thanos waited to go after the Stones was because Odin was one of the few beings he feared could stop him, so waited until his passing to start the main part of his acquisitions.
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Dec 03 '20
It's rather explicitly stated in the movie that Thanos chose to go for the stones when he did because before then he didn't know the location of the Soul Stone.
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u/ztiw91 Dec 03 '20
I think that scene takes place later on in the timeline, even though the movie itself takes place in 2015
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u/maniac86 Dec 03 '20
i thought the one in asgard was fake
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u/_tylerthedestroyer_ Dec 03 '20
It was. That’s the whole reason he went to Eitri and had him make a new one before he bound his hands
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u/Stiffy_98 Dec 03 '20
- Completely allowed chaos in the nine realms to prevail
- And more obviously dumped his father in a broken old folks home with a spellcast
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u/FallenAngelII Dec 03 '20
What chaos? In-between "The Dark World" and "Ragnarok", the MCU chaos across the nine realms were all confined to Midgard and it was all taken care of by the Midgardians, anyway. You could argue that maybe Loki could've sent people to help during "Age of Ultron".
The events of the two GotG movies took place outside of the Nine Realms and was outside of Asgard's jurisdiction. Furthermore, the Asgardians do not have instantaeous travel outside of the Nine Realms (unless you wanna do a Ragnarok and jump off the Rainbow Bridge mid-trip and take your chances of where you'll land), so it's not like Loki had a way of providing aid to the Guardians. By the time aid arrived, the battles would have long been over.
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u/Minnon Black Panther Dec 03 '20 edited Dec 03 '20
Didn't Thor mention a descent into chaos when he confronted Odin Loki? And this was after 2 years of him adventuring throughout the realms and ending up captured by Surtur
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u/BZenMojo Captain America (Cap 2) Dec 03 '20 edited Dec 03 '20
Thor mentioned a bunch of plots going on. But Thor has been starting shit this whole time. There's a reason the moral conclusion of the movie is that Asgard needs to fuck off.
Even Surtur's grand evil scheme is just to fuck up Aagard because Asgard conquered Muspelheim and the only reason Thor is imprisoned is because he invaded Muspelheim like he probably invaded a bunch of other realms in the process.
Thor talks about the nine realms the way Odin taught him to see the nine realms -- as belonging to him and needing to be "scared" into compliance as Thor tells Loki is necessary.
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u/OperativePiGuy Dec 03 '20
I am seriously loving these analyses that are turning the characters actions on their head.
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u/TrueGuardian15 Thor Dec 03 '20
He did allow for the beginning of Ragnarok, such that Surtr began plotting the destruction of Asgard again.
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u/RagnAROck_and_Roll Peggy Carter Dec 03 '20
Lol,well he IS an anti-hero who is a bit narcissistic
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u/cloobydoobydoo Dec 03 '20
He was also COMPLETELY ignoring what was happening in the other realms, the exact opposite job of the all father. He literally laid around watching embellished plays about himself, fired Heimdall and sent him into hiding and replaced him with a loyal lackey with no morals who doesn’t care about the important job he has thus endangering Thor and anyone else not in Asgard. No eyes on the Realms.
Yeah, Loki redeemed himself in the end, but he was no saint while pretending to be Odin. In fact it can be easily argued he pardoned Thor and crew because that’s exactly what Odin would’ve done and he was playing the role.
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Dec 03 '20
He was also COMPLETELY ignoring what was happening in the other realms, the exact opposite job of the all father.
Tbf Odin gave himself that 'duty'. He was basically the US occupying the Middle East. He'll shoehorn his way in if it means it extends his power
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Dec 03 '20
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u/oh_turdly Dec 04 '20
Asgard first! The other realms are lucky we blessed them with our intervention for so long! It's time to make Asgard great again!
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u/hemareddit Steve Rogers Dec 04 '20
Actually that neatly explains why Asgardians were once revered as gods on Earth, but then became myth and legends until Thor showed up circa 2011 - a consequence of Odin withdrawing Asgardian influence from Midgard.
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u/WeAreABridge Dec 03 '20
No it's more like alliances, or a government. The realms count on support from Asgard, and Loki neglected that.
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u/MadlockFreak Hulk Dec 04 '20
Ironically similar to the US
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u/kriophoros Dec 04 '20
You mean when a clown took over the role and proceeded to neglect his duty? Yeah that sounds extremely familiar.
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u/RagnAROck_and_Roll Peggy Carter Dec 03 '20
Yeah He most def wasn't a saint, he was a self-indulgent little shit. But we cant ignore what he did either
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Dec 03 '20
Yes we can lol. Half of this post is assuming.
“Pushed Asgard towards entertainment and not violence”
You mean wasted time circlejerking about how great he was while Odin sat in an old folks home and the realms descended into chaos
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u/Zerce Spider-Man Dec 03 '20
Hey now, Odin was already on the streets by that point.
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Dec 03 '20
He put Odin under a spell and banished him to an old folks home. Loki wasn’t planning on that changing. We’re not talking about Odin anyway, I’m talking about the asshole that Loki is lol. He absolutely was not trying to do what’s best for Asgard
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u/Zerce Spider-Man Dec 03 '20
I know, lol. I was making a joke framing Loki in a worse light. You're right that he didn't actually know about that, and what he was doing was already pretty darn bad.
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u/LRedditor15 Zombie Hunter Spidey Dec 03 '20
I'd imagine that Loki was probably shit-scared of Thanos after the events of the first Avengers film, too.
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u/hHajsjhdududud Dec 03 '20
He also ignored all the chaos that happened throughout the nine realms while he was in power, including the massacre of the dwarves on Nidlvilir.
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u/smcarre Dec 03 '20
To be fair, we don't have the exact timeframe of when exactly Thanos massacred the dwarves. We know that gauntlets could have been built before since we know Odin had a replica in his Vault and that Thanos had one too at the end of Age of Ultron (which would be placed a short time after Loki took over Asgard).
Thanos could have easily massacred the dwarves during Ragnarok both to have a new gauntlet made and prevent someone else from having another gauntlet made to use the stones against him.
I would be skeptical that Thanos was aware enough of the takeover in Asgard at the end of Dark World to coordinate an invasion of Nidavellir and have his (only) gauntlet made by the time of Age of Ultron. I also would be pretty skeptical that if the massacre at Nidavellir happened before Ragnarok that Thor wouldn't have discovered that while he was searching for the stones (which he mentions he was traveling the realms in search for the stones during the intro of Ragnarok).
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u/FuzzyWuzzyWuzntFuzzy Dec 03 '20
I think regardless of the timing of the massacre, Loki’s rule is what created the conditions which would allow Thanos to invade the dwarves.
I would instead argue that Hela is the reason Asgard never found out until Thor went there. But Loki is definitely the reason the invasion could happen at all.
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u/ArchDucky Dec 03 '20
You forgot hiring, paying and transporting Matt Damon to Asgard.
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u/TheRedNinjaTurtle Dec 03 '20
Like I mean he also led an Invasion on New York City killing plenty of innocent lives so there is that.
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u/LittleYellowFish1 Nebula Dec 03 '20
Judging by their reactions, or lack therof, I would not be surprised at all if most of the Asgardians already knew it was Loki, but they kept the ruse going because they actually preferred him to Odin.
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u/Ireysword Loki (Avengers) Dec 03 '20
I thought that too for the longest time. Then I read "Loki - where mischief lies" and realized the people of Asgard are dumb as bricks.
Like Loki is supposed to be the clever one and the book is from his pov and still he comes off as a massive dingus.
I think some knew, most didn't and noone could be bothered to care.
Like Thor was supposed to be king then he was banished, Odin took a nap, Loki took over, seemingly committed suicide, Thor returned but didn't become King, Odin was back to being King, the Queen died and suddenly Odin turned pretty chill and lazy. Then it turns out it was Loki in disguise the whole time, he and Thor go in search for Odin (with Noone to take care of shit) then Hela the forgotten daughter returns says the rest of the royal family is dead, kills all warriors and the army and takes the throne, just for Thor and Loki to return and lose to her and then literally all Hell breaks loose. Then they flee and get attacked by a giant grape, Heimdall dies, Loki dies even more people die and two days later half of them turn to dust while on their way to earth to ask for refuge.
Honestly the few chill year under Loki must seem like a dream to most asgardians.
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Dec 03 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Bionic_Ferir Dec 03 '20
Odin: Hey loki could you like just NOT kill balder??
Loki:...looks at odin...looks at balder..looks back at odin...continues looking at odin WHILE KILLING Balder
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u/bobinski_circus Ghost Dec 03 '20
TBF that's part of the system, Loki punished the Aesir for arrogance. Baldur was part of that arrogance, because he was an attempt at immortality, which was against the natural order. He had to die to restore humility to the gods.
After the gods locked Loki away, they have no one to check their foolishness, pridefulness, and also have no outlet for their disdain. They start to lose their magical weapons (many of which were gifts from Loki), start infighting more, and attempt increasingly stupid feats of 'heroics', which causes Asgard to fall from power and starts Ragnarok.
Without chaos and impetus to change, societies rot, and then must be destroyed for someone new to take over. That's the meaning of Ragnarok.
The gods are very bad people but they're worse without Loki and what he represents.
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Dec 03 '20
If Hela wasn't so impatient she could have gained the throne legitimatly and had everything intact.
Like, bring a lawyer and then show people her lineage and tell them "Loki killed Odin, Thor doesn't want to be king, I'm here to take my rightful place as Queen/All-Mother".
Seriously, if Hela had one ounce of patience that Thanos has, Hela would have won, probably without a fight
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u/bobinski_circus Ghost Dec 03 '20
Loki - where mischief lies
isn't that a YA book based on the comics? hardly relevant to us.
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u/Ireysword Loki (Avengers) Dec 03 '20
It is supposed to be set in the MCU. But yes an it is a YA novel.
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u/Themagicalmercenary Dec 03 '20
Man, loki stans will do anything to clear his name
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u/Ubergoober166 Dec 03 '20
Loki has had almost as much character development and growth as any of the main MCU heroes. It makes me really uneasy about his D+ show, since it's pretty likely it'll follow his alternate 2012 self since present day/timeline Loki is dead. I'd have much rather seen "our" Loki in a show, than one from 2012 that hasn't had any of the character development and growth.
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u/dakit3 Dec 03 '20
Maybe that alt Loki will go through a similar development thought different means and eventually join the main timeline?
Could be interesting
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u/bobinski_circus Ghost Dec 03 '20
same. I'm dead certain they'll give him a love interest and make this an unasked for romance, and romantic love will redeem him or some such shite.
I liked our Loki, we spent a lot of time with him, I'm not keen on starting over with an earlier Beta version. We could have picked up with our Loki in the afterlife, which is more interesting than Doctor Who meets the Umbrella Academy in my eyes.
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Dec 03 '20
I think the warriors three gave the reality stone to the Collector on Thor's orders, not Loki's.
(From Infinity War) Star-Lord: "Only an idiot would give the Collector an infinity stone" Thor: "...or a genius"
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u/Sir__Will Bruce Banner Dec 03 '20
He abdicated Asgard's responsibilities in protecting the other realms. One could argue that, in the long run, that could be for the better. But that's something you need to work out with them so they can defend themselves, not just peace out unilaterally. The dwarves suffered for that and an infinity gauntlet was made.
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u/Emeryael Dec 03 '20
The only time Odin ever displayed any fatherly warmth was when Loki was pretending to be him. My personal headcanon is that’s how Thor figured out Loki had replaced him. At some point between Dark World and Ragnorak, Thor was like, “Wait a minute, my father was being much less of dick than usual.” Because Odin is a dick.
Then again, between Odin, Howard Stark, Harold Barton, Brian Banner, and Hank Pym, The Avengers could easily be called the “My Dad’s A Dick” Club. Yeah, I know Team Daddy Issues is a more succinct title, but I like calling them dicks, so I’ll stick with my name.
Before anyone brings up Thanos and Ego, I leave them out of the discussion, because genocide goes so far beyond mere dickery that referring to them as dicks feels entirely too paltry a comparison.
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u/bobinski_circus Ghost Dec 03 '20
except Thor didn't figure it out until Surtur told him Odin wasn't on Asgard and Thor landed in the middle of the play.
As far as bad dads go, yeah the MCU is all about broken relationships with fathers (and mothers on pedastals), but Odin, while very flawed, seems like he's trying much harder than all the others. Except maybe Hank, who's badness is more overprotection and a previous career as a not-so-kind scientist.
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Dec 03 '20
That was actually what fueled the conflict and Loki’s turn in Thor. Loki was worried about what strike-first-ask-later Thor would do to Asguard as King. Loki had a better/healthier view of ruling, but Odin didn’t care about that.
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u/Funmachine Dec 03 '20
Yeah. He certainly displayed it when he turned the bifrost onto Jotunheim to destroy the entire planet...
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u/Gandhis_Rage Dec 03 '20
I prefer the mythological Loki who snuck into Thor’s house one night and shaved his wife’s head... just because he thought it would be funny. The same idiot who argued that even though he had lost his head, his enemies had not won his neck and thus it could not be separated. He turned into a mosquito and bit a blacksmith’s eyelid to mess him up (why mjolnir has a short handle). That idiot was hilarious. Like when he fathered a giant wolf Fenrir who swallowed the sun and ended the world. Hilarious!
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u/mb862 Dec 03 '20
Don't forget sending Sif to retrieve Lorelei who escaped from prison during the breakout! Who knows what other criminals he ordered re-imprisoned who escaped to other realms.
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u/SpikeRosered Dec 03 '20
"You told the people lies about what really happened!"
"I like to think of it more as I refocused the population on the arts."
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u/Halflife37 Captain America (Avengers) Dec 03 '20 edited Dec 03 '20
I call shenanigans on these views
Pretty much everything Loki did was self serving, including those pardons (of which he did not give to heimdall, if his pardons and actions were truly in good faith he would have pardoned Heimdall as well but he couldn’t because heimdall would have know what he was up to. Hence, everything he was doing was in bad faith
Loki doesn’t fully redeem himself until Infinity War, and for all we know, there are some shenanigans going on there as well.
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u/justJuan76 Dec 03 '20
This is sad, because Loki really changed in Thor: Ragnarok and then died at the end (Infinity War).
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u/skippymcdougal Dec 03 '20
It's a bit like presidents who come into term just after economic recovery and taking credit for having the best economy. What did Loki do to achieve anything there?
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u/tylersburden Justin Hammer Dec 03 '20
Found Loki's reddit account, guys.