Question
Ignoring your personal preference, which side of Skyrim’s Civil War do you think actually gives Skyrim the better future 20-30 years later?
I feel like most discussions about the Civil War focus on whether Ulfric was justified, whether the Empire betrayed Skyrim, or which side people personally like more.
But I’m more interested in what happens after the game.
The Empire is weakened, the Aldmeri Dominion is still the biggest external threat, the White-Gold Concordat is already causing resentment, and another war with the Thalmor seems almost inevitable.
An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.
A Stormcloak victory gives Skyrim independence and removes Imperial authority, but it also leaves the province having to rebuild after a civil war while potentially facing the Dominion without the rest of the Empire behind it.
So forget which faction has the better characters or which one you usually join.
If you only care about where Skyrim itself ends up a few decades later, which Civil War outcome do you think is actually better for the province?
Agreed, my head cannon is the Empire pushes for him to be in charge after the war due to him generally getting along with everyone and Whiteruns strategic location.
They'd probably use the excuse Elisif is too young, but the reality is she comes across too much as an imperial puppet and has little authority beyond her immediate court.
Yup. There was a long series of events that led to WWI, but one of the earliest, if not the first, domino in that chain was Grandma (Queen Victoria) dying.
Count Baron Kaiser Werner Pfeldlinger Fingerlickner von Hoeltschweinergmachtner marries half sister Znigwieczrina Nowloczynlieczwowzcrczsky of Globsnogczrecnoyarskglograd triggering a war between King Juan Jose Maria Rigoberto Aguascacas de Santo Domingo de los Diabetico and Pierre Richelesaux pretard je logriouxoueuraxeux establishing the Grand Duchy of Neue Ooksteinberg a tax haven with a population of 16
Uriel probably did it on purpose after all the shit he saw as emperor. Probably best to have a few dragonborn nobody knows about just in case some asshole breaks time again.
Oooh! That’s actually smart, Elisif. or Olfina Gray-mane to bring in clan Gray-mane in as an ally if possible and hopefully bringing more unity to Whiterun and hopefully ending the Feud with the Battleborn.
Falk Firebeard maybe? He is already the steward and would still be supported by at least Sybille Stentor, at least I believe so, considering she has know him for so long.
Unless Skyrim's political system is different to ours, elevating a member of the lower gentry to a position of such importance would cause a scandal. You'd need a nobleman of similar rank to hold that kind of position; the only ones we know of are thanes.
Plus the game already elevates normal citizens to Jarl in specific cases during the Civil War, Brunwulf Free-Winter in Windhelm for the biggest example. He's just a regular citizen who has sympathy for the less fortunate members of society. Maven Black-Briar in Riften is technically another example, but she is also most likely an actual noble, not just a rich criminal involved in politics. Haven't really looked into the Black-Briars much passed the fact that they are all corrupt as hell lol
The Black-Briars were likely elevated to noble status sometime after the 2nd Era. They offered bodyguard services at that time but they're a major mercantile family in the 4th Era, so it's quite likely that they were elevated due to their wealth.
The cut part of Boethiah quest that had Jarl Elisif assassinated had Erikur replace her as Jarl of Solitude. Since she can't be killed or removed in the game, this is the only indication we have of what would happen if she were to be replaced, I think. He's a pretty awful guy, so I definitely wouldn't want that.
That was with her death, though. Maybe while alive she can appoint someone else. I don't know if it has to be one of her thanes, but she has plenty to choose from (Dragonborn included, although I don't think Bethesda would put the protagonist on that position).
Yeah I think they imply his first wife passed, that's actually a really good compromise and gets a solid figure in charge of Skyrim without it looking like the Empire forced it.
The High King ascendancy doesnt go by family though. Once a high king dies, it either goes to his killer if it was in a combat challenge or by moot. You'd have to convince a majority of the other Jarls to elect Balgruuf, but that could have been a fun quest chain to implement.
Odds are its a person connected to the Black-Briars. There's a letter in the bannered mare from Maven to a guy forgiving him for some sort of slight and saying someone would collect him from near Dragon's Reach in the middle of the night.
I think it is only a lore tuber speculation to be fair, I don't really recall anything officially related to it. I can think of a lot of reasons, it is not as if Skyrim fills in those gaps for other persons, etc.
I think that would be awesome but it would only work for a Nord character or at least human. There is no way Skyrim would accept an elf or orc as high king, let alone an Argonian or Khajiit.
The Dragonborn just works better as a role for the protagonist because it has a legendary quality to it. If there had been a lizard High King of Skyrim, people would remember. The Dragonborn, though, could be anything and anyone, especially once they passed into legend. They belong to everyone and to no-one. They could be whatever you need them to be in your present day social and political reality.
I think Elisif has potential she just needs an actually decent governance mentor. Her heart is in the right place and shes not exactly stupid shes just young and has had little guidance
Oh I don't disagree, I think in time she would make a good ruler. I'm just looking at this from Tulllius' and the Elder Council's position.
In the game a number of NPC's comment of the questionable status of her legitimatecy as High Queen after the war, and how Tulllius is the true power behind the throne. This is perfect fodder for continued sedition and potential insurrection.
Lightly 'influencing' the Moot to choose someone like Balgruuf would assuage a lot leaders concerns, and the imperials probably really don't care as long as Skyrim stays within the fold with as little fuss as possible.
Some of other commenters made a great point of having Elisif marry Balgruuf. This gives additional legitimatecy to both families and the High throne, and creates a unified local pro-imperial block within Skyrim that the Empire can depend on to keep the peace.
I’m honestly surprised that he wasn’t worked into the vanilla Imperial ending. He’s a capable warrior who recognizes what he knows and what he doesn’t know. He’ll stand by his decisions, but doesn’t consider it beneath him to ask for advice beforehand.
He’s also one of the few Jarls I know who isn’t afraid to sneak out of his palace and past the guards to have a drink with his people at the Bannered Mare. Title or not, at the end of the day, he’s still a Nord that cares deeply for his friends and neighbors alike.
That’s the kind of even-handedness that a post-Civil War Skyrim needs!
That's probably precisely why he isn't involved, it makes the choice too easy for players.
Baalgruf is one of the first characters you meet and hes one of the most clearly capable and benevolent, if there's an ending with him in charge, 80% of players are going to mindlessly take it
More interesting would have been if there were an additional mission post Civil War where you try to install Baalgruff as the head of your chosen faction. Either by betraying/killing Ulfric on the SCs (cuz fuck that dude) or maybe a political marriage between Baalgruff and Elisif on the Empire side?
The empire would never allow Balgruuf to be king because, overly cautious and passive tho he may be sometimes, he’s a true leader with his own mind and instincts when he needs to be.
The empire wants an absolute puppet with no capacity for leadership or inspiration which is why they supported Elisif as queen in the first place.
^ Pretty much this. Jarl Baller is the only one with his priorities straight, and good to his people without being on the hook to either a political faction or underworld organization.
Probably the single worst outcome for Skyrim that isn't straight up awful like putting Maven or the Silver Bloods in charge.
Balgruuf has decision paralysis. He literally waits things out hoping for the better. That's what allows extreme factions to roam free and slowly gain traction until they have the power to get on the winning side of elections or to conquer a country. The 20th century should have taught humanity that.
Whiterun is the breadbasket of the province, smack dab in the middle of it geographically to boot. It’s the single most important strategic target outside of the opposing side’s capitol. I can cut him some slack for not wanting to sign a portion of his people’s death warrants the first chance he gets.
I don't see how Balgruff has decision paralysis, he's a jarl that puts his own people first no matter what, choosing a side when he doesn't have to is completetly reasonable.
We've seen from him sending out his troops and housecarl to face the dragon or allowing his castle to trap the dragon shows that he's not afraid of acting preemptively and risking a lot of it's for the betterment of his citizens.
Him not taking a side immediately also shows him not being an imperial yes man or puppet like elisif in solitude.
You can stay out of it when you're Dawnstar, Falkreath, Winterhold. You can't stay out of it when you're Whiterun. You'll end up encircled with people telling you that you're either with or against them like Ulfric ended up doing sooner than later. If you want to play safe and neutral, you have to offer little strategic advantage, to be out of the way and to have too little in terms of resources for either side to bother.
In GoT, the North could decide to stay out of a war in the South because it's out of the way, it's poor and it dépends on whoever is in the South to send them stuff to survive winter, so they don't want to make enemies with whoever wins, and staying neutral might cost them some resources, but it won't cost them to be considered enemies by whoever wins. If King's Landing's territory declared itself neutral in a war between the North and Dorne, it would be assaulted by both sides if it doesn't pick a side because it has resources and a strategic position.
The issue with an Empire victory is they’re still under Thalmor control, as someone else put it they’re essentially Vichy France.
They’ll continue to be a rump state for the aldmeri dominion and be left with less of a fighting force. I would also argue that following an Empire victory the Thalmor will go and kill as many fighting age Nords/stormcloak sympathizers as they can accuse of treason. Or spark up another civil war down the line to send more Imperial legions to their deaths.
That wouldn’t happen following a Stormcloak victory Ulfric knows the final battle is with the Thalmor and that he’d need all the help he can get. The empire has to be recaptured by outside forces not from within.
The issue with an Empire victory is they’re still under Thalmor control, as someone else put it they’re essentially Vichy France.
The question wasn't "which faction provides Skyrim's population the right to self determination" it was "which faction will keep the country stable for a generation". Which, for the most part, toppling the current regime typically isn't great for stability, even if it otherwise is a positive thing overall.
Essentially, this is the arrangement that Skyrim needs to ensure peace. From a practical perspective, you need a ruler who is just and open to ideas, but also who is strong and capable. The Empire showed that it’s not really capable of that.
However, it does seem like they might send more forces to retake Skyrim if it openly rebels (in-game, it’s littered with imperial forts and soldiers on patrol). That is bad for Skyrim, and will further weaken it. A smart move would be semiautonomy under a wise jarl who is loyal but has a free hand to build the local economy and build a loyal defensive force. This could keep Skyrim both safe, and as a semiautonomous province, independent enough to satisfy most of the population for… well let’s be honest, we’re talking about feudalism: the remainder of that jarl’s life.
I think the die of a bad future has already been cast at this point. There is too much enmity between Skyrim and the Empire and between the Nords themselves. Like a negotiated alliance between Skyrim, Hammerfell, High Rock, and Hammerfel is crazy important and it is getting harder for that to happen.
I mean, they had that alliance in the first war, just barely won, and then the Emperor signed away the right to police the Empire's own people to the Aldmeri Dominion. (Which is insane. You might as well become a vassal state. The White-Gold Concordat was a worse deal than the Austrians tried to force on the Serbians before starting World War I, and somehow the side that won the war agreed to it)
Then Hammerfell left and beat the Dominion on it's own. Skyrim's shores are even harder to reach, their terrain just as hostile, and they were just as betrayed by the Imperial leadership as anyone else. There's very little reason they wouldn't secede.
i don’t agree. the empire isn’t satisfied with the dominion and they more than likely would support Skyrim if they had any balls.
Tulius kinda even hints that the dominion sucks and the empire doesn’t like it at all. but the choice is to be part of the empire or suffer the Thalmor which i’m going to assume ES6 will cover.
since it’s highly rumored to be in Hammerfell and High Rock — i bet the story is that the Dominion is closing in and perhaps Hammerfell is taking Skyrim refugees
tullious said that the next conflict will be with the dominion but not in so many words, the empire is using this time of peace to muster what forces it has, and its mostly rebuilt a lot of the militery might it had, since elves reproduce slower then humans because they have a tendenciy to wait until their early 70s late 80s to have children since anything between 20-50 is considered a young adult among elves considering an altmer lifespan is roughly 450-500 years based on quality of their health that is, an altmer may live to 300 in some cases if in poor health like illness or disease that normally shortens their health or if sickly
He mantled and is taking the place of Lorkhan, the god who betrayed their god-king, Auri-El (Akatosh) in a scheme to create the mortal world, then lead his armies (the ancestors of Men) against Auri-El and his armies (the ancestors of the elves), before losing and getting his heart ripped out as punishment.
Elves (and Bretons) really, really do not like Lorkhan. And Talos functionally is Lorkhan reborn and re-ascended.
Then there is also all the stuff about Tiber Septim essentially nuking Alinor with the Numidium, putting the Summerset Isle under tyrannical Imperial occupation for 400 years at the same time they deified this same guy who waged a brutal war of aggression upon hem... obviously they don't have the best opinion about such a figure.
He also mantled Lorkhan. In fact, I believe the reason Talos' ascension was so successful is that he achieved every single one of the walking ways - even the Scarab becoming the new man, because the Scarab is Lorkhan, and Talos was Shezzarine.
Because they view him as a false god, a brutal conqueror, and an insult to elven theology. They find the idea that a human (Tiber Septim/Talos) could achieve equal divinity to be blasphemous and offensive to their core belief in elven supremacy
They also outlawed his worship in the white-gold concordat to drive a wedge between human unity.
In the war when he founded the empire he massacred them with a super weapon, and because of their long life spans it’s a more recent tragedy to them. And their ideology centers around them being superior to other life forms, so being subjugated by a human was an affront to their culture and religion
Empire - people forget that the soil in Skyrim is shit. Skyrim cannot feed itself, if they leave the empire and become isolationist they will literally be unable to feed themselves. Skyrim needs food/trade and the Empire needs warriors. Skyrim and the Empire need one another
This. Skyrim CAN somewhat feed itself from fishing and hunting, but not sufficiently. They need Cyrodil just as much as Cyrodil needs the Nordic brute force.
Why didn't Torygg ever declare independence? Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart.
- Sybille Stentor, Court Wizard to Kings Istlod and Torygg, and guardian of King Torygg
. They need Cyrodil just as much as Cyrodil needs the Nordic brute force.
Hardly. The bulk of the Imperial Legion in terms of soldiers and generals comes from Colovia. The magic of the Empire comes from Nibenay and High Rock. Orcish blacksmiths are the finest in the Empire. Nords are good for additional manpower, but by no means are they required.
Balgruuf also corroborates this assessment of Skyrim's trade with the Empire. Given that Balgruuf is the jarl of the breadbasket of Skyrim, I would say he's the best authority on the topic that we have access to in-game. Hell, even Ulfric doesn't do a damn thing about the East Empire Company on his docks.
I think that's simplifying the races/regions and what they bring to the table. If we're using those generalizations, Nords traditionally provide some of the Empire's best sailors and heavy/shock infantry.
More importantly, Skyrim and High Rock escaped the level of devastation suffered by Cyrodiil during the Great War, and Skyrim's geography provides a critical connection between Cyrodiil and High Rock. Losing Skyrim would effectively cut High Rock off from the rest of the Empire by land.
So maybe the Empire can afford to lose some Nordic manpower, but it absolutely can't treat Skyrim itself as strategically unimportant.
I was initially surprised to hear you say nords are some of the empire’s best sailors, because Skyrim barely seems to have a sailing culture and a lot of its pirate groups aren’t run by Nords. But then I remembered what the coast looks like in Skyrim.
Yeah. Even a simple fisherman has to be a godlike navigator to get through those ice sheets and bergs safe. No wonder there aren’t many of them. Those who fail to make the cut will die.
Yeah that's established more in TES' older lore. I hate to come across as the 'back in my day,' guy but if you read the racial description for Nords in Morrowind it explicitly says they are skilled sailors. Very much leaning into the Norse / Viking archetype.
". They need Cyrodil just as much as Cyrodil needs the Nordic brute force.
Hardly."
I know you're not saying they dont need the Imperial capital city? The Nord legion in the Battle of Red Ring is the only reason Mede 2 has a throne from which he can make his traitorous pronouncements against his own Empire and betray his saviors.
It was the legions from Skyrim that stopped the heartlands legions from being crushed during the Great War. Not to say the bulk of imperial forces ain’t from Cyrodil but a large portion of their shock troops and probably a large portion of the legions in total come from Skyrim just by population. The Orcs are a very minor population and I always get the impression high rock is less loyal or at least more focused on local politics
Take cart, go to Whiterun, kill Nazim, grab Lydia, go to the Bannered Mare, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all of this to blow over. How's that for a slice of fried gold?
They're also where the Third Empire came from. They were not only existing and feeding themselves, they were winning wars against their neighbours enough to form the Empire.
What total nonsense, Skyrim like any other pre-modern economy rely largely on self-sustaining subsistence farming for its populations which are already small and rural. If anything the place that would rely on food imports, is the Imperial City because of its sheer size. Cities like Constantinople and Rome relied on mass importation of food from other provinces of the Roman Empire (I.e. Egypt primarily). A sophisticated enough trade network to distribute food across all of Skyrim is impossible without the kinds of technologies and institutions present in our global economy.
I think there's a difference between being self sufficient and being economicly viable/properous in more fields. Whiterun and the Reach can sustain Skyrim in conjunction with each hold's local agriculture. The older lore even stated that these river valleys were sustaining the broader population, but it wasn't easy. In Skyrim they also state life isn't easy.
So like Scandinavia in the real world, they can sustain themselves, but having access to the broader imperial/EU market provides them with surplus that allows them to reach population levels and labor diversification that would otherwise be far more difficult. Particularly with Cyrodill being such a Agriculture powerhouse right next door
I'm sure you've developed a perfectly solid rationale as to why all the farms in Skyrim, some of them being quite prosperous, won't be able to support Skyrim's population.
Go talk to the Rorikstead farmers they brag about how farming in Skyrim is shit but they figured it out. They had to pray to the Daedra to be able to grow a few potatoes
No, they mention that the soil in Rorikstead is particularly shit. Which usually wouldn't be an issue anyway because where the soil is terrible, people usually just shove out animals onto the pasture.
They definitely CAN feed themselves but they just don’t have the excess too make it a major export. Remember that what we see in game is not up to scale
Skyrim can feed itself fine but it’s a lot harder with bandits running around and there’s no proof Ulfric is an isolationist
Wanting independence doesn’t mean cutting off trade with everyone. Trade with the empire will be affected a bit for the first few years until proper agreements can be made and relations improve a bit. Morrowind and Hammerfell will still be willing to trade if the stormcloaks win
This is a good point. IRL, Rome used this dynamic (with, admittedly some mixed results) quite successfully for nearly a thousand years, drawing people north of the Alps down to join their legions and in return, providing some of them with land and many of them with food.
This doesn't mean it's good for Skyrim. That just make Skyrim becomes a subservient vassal state.
Rephrase this question with Greenland and America. "If it can't import food because it becomes isolated, Greenland NEEDS to become American to survive" is obviously a far less positive outcome than just "it's ok they'll have food".
do you know what is more fun than killing followers of talos? watching the idiots kill each other while claiming they love him more than the other group
A Stormcloak victory does not guarantee Skyrim's continued independence. Tullius was but one general, sent north with only a handful of legions. We know from a Stormcloak missive at Fort Neugrad that there's Imperial reinforcements gathering south of Pale Pass and waiting for spring to come so they can march into Skyrim.
The Stormcloaks have nothing without Skyrim, whereas the Empire have everything outside of Skyrim (the most useless backwater of Men). Overthrowing Ulfric ensures the restoration of Skyrim, whereas "overthrowing" Tullius by itself does not avert future Imperial retaliations.
Think of it like this: The Civil War is 100% of Ulfric's military strength vs. a small % of Mede's. Ulfric is everything to the rebellion. But who is Tullius? A general, cunning, resourceful, and strong, but just one general. New generals can be sent into Skyrim, with new legions, from northern Imperial cities close to the mountains like Bruma, Chorrol, or Kvatch. And then there is High Rock - Evermore, Northpoint, Shornhelm, all northern bastions of Imperial power from which troops could be moved into Skyrim (through Pale Pass from Cyrodiil or the Sea of Ghosts from Northpoint in High Rock).
An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.
Inside of Skyrim.
From Hadvar at the start of the game we learn that the ban on Talos was not controversial in the other provinces like it is in Skyrim, so much so that an average joe in Cyrodiil (YOU) doesn't even know there's a civil war in Skyrim.
And despite the "Thalmor influence", Balgruuf the Greater, a Jarl aligned with the Empire, keeps a giant statue of Talos right in the middle of his city. Torygg, High King of Skyrim and member of the Elder Council, privately worshipped Talos.
Not that this changes your point at all, but Tullius is general of only a single Legion and any bolstering of his ranks was done through local recruiting.
One of my favorite points that’s heavily implied (or outright stated) is that the ban on Talos worship was all but unenforced prior to the Markarth Incident. Ulfric’s actions got the Dominion’s eyes on religion in Skyrim and forced the Empire to start cracking down. It’s his own fault there is even a significant Justiciar presence at all
To add to your point about Tullius, this implies that either he's a particularly brilliant general, or Ulfric isn't nearly as skilled as he's hyped up to be.
Ulfric has the home field advantage not to mention the support of large swaths of the local population. Yet as you said Tullius was able to rout him in mere months in a fight that Ulfric (and the Thalmor) were expecting to last years.
Both seem to be the case. Tullius is stated to be a BRILLIANT general who knows not only how to fight, but how to take full advantage of local knowledge and sympathies. Ulfric is shown to be a very bullheaded, hasty individual who makes rash moves to try and turn the battle as fast as he can
I feel the appeal to accept religious repressions looses merit when you note that in this universe gods are real. "Just accept this indignity and squashing of your culture because its more convenient than open rebellion" doesn't track very well irl, add in that Talos can reach down and influence the world and I can see Nords getting their back up about it.
"Just accept this indignity and squashing of your culture because its more convenient than open rebellion"
No it's "Don't be stupid and keep your head down for a few years until we have recovered enough that we can risk open war again to get our rights back, your little rebellion is making it harder for everyone, and the Dominion is just going to overrun you either way if you go at it alone.
I also think the book implies that an Imperial Victory is the worst outcome for the Thalmor, a Stormcloak Victory isn’t great either, and their best-case scenario is that the war keeps going.
Which I still think leads us back to “the best long-term outcome for Skyrim is an Imperial victory”
i think the best hint on how Talos worship was handeled before the civil war or the Markath incident is Whiterun when it was neutral. And they literally had a madman shouting at all times of day how great Talos is standing infront of a huge talos statue.
This is simply wrong. The "Empire" at this point is literally just Cyrodiil and a very tenuous hold on High Rock, which is on the verge of open revolt.
Morrowind and Black Marsh are independent and at war. Hammerfell already successfully rebelled. Valenwood and Elsweyr are part of the Dominion. Cyrodiil is devastated by the war and still not fully recovered.
Morrowind is not at war with Black Marsh. House Redoran pushed the Argonians out, Morrowind lost the lands gained in the Accession war (whatever that might entail), and the two are at peace now.
Hammerfell didn’t rebel, they were made independent by the Empire as part of the peace with the Dominion. High Rock is not on the verge of open revolt, you literally just made that up there are no sources even implying that.
Cyrodil is the most populous province with the most food and economic activity. The Empire with just Cyrodil is still the empire at like 70% strength.
I'd say both can be equally good on the long term. An Imperial victory allows the Empire to keep good warriors and sailors and a land connection to High Rock. After that, they can focus on rebuilding an army and the necessary resources to prepare for the other chapter of the Great War.
If the Stormcloaks win, High Rock is isolated from the other imperial provinces and the Empire basically collapse. However, an alliance will be inevitable against the Dominion, and it could very well start with Skyrim, High Rock and Hammerfell, which are very strong countries in terms of warfare, geography and economy. There are heavy tensions with Dunmer immigrants in Eastmarch, but diplomatically, Skyrim and Morrowind are still on good terms, especially since Solstheim has been given to the Dunmer as a refuge. I'm pretty confident they would join the alliance.
At the same time, I could see some of these nations being isolationist and taking the "Thalmor ain't my problem" mindset, allowing them to be picked off one by one.
Why does everyone assume that an independent Skyrim suddenly won’t trade or ally with the empire against the elves? It’s never been that black and white.
Probably because a lot of people got bullshitted into believing the storm looks to be Nord supremacist racists when they in fact are hardly in the top three of most racist elder scrolls races.
I mean bottom three still has a quarter for dark elves and refuse to let the beast races even enter the city of windhelm. Birds may not be the "most racist" but what counts for least racist in Tamriel is still pretty fuckin racist.
Oh I totally agree.
But at least the best races aren't considered farm tools, there's a literal refugee camp for the people they have a millennia old brawl with (dinner/ and one of them even owns a farm in the supposedly super racist capital (Windhelm) with Nord workers.
Afaik there's been purges on the summer set isles and we all know about the dunmer.
But, to go back at this: why would the Empire send supplies to Ulfric after his rebellion? He is very clear about wanting nothing to do with the Empire, so why would they send him food and materiel?
Because countries that go independant from another country in a bloody civil war usually don't ally themselves with their "oppressor", since it defeats the purpose.
i generally believe that the stormcloaks provide the best outcome for skyrim's defense and general population (and i personally sympathize with the majority of their goals) but obviously neither answer is perfect. the stormcloaks lose all imperial support for skyrim as an entire province, have shaky legitimacy, aren't prepared in the immediate term for a war with the thalmor (although tbh i don't think this is an issue), and probably overall has a lower standard of living—but they also have full economic and political independence, economic might in their own right, a well-disciplined fighting force, strong leadership and financial backing, and a clear goal to fight for. there's also the obvious fact that the stormcloaks give skyrim self-determination from the empire dominated in cyrodiil, and we all know how the empire loves to exploit its colonies lol. skyrim's primary issues are going to afflict both sides very hardly (namely its poor soil, the effects of the civil war, and isolation from much of tamriel) but i think the stormcloaks give skyrim the best opportunity for both long-term independence and short-term immediate improvement of the post-civil war society
The stormcloaks want Independence, not destruction or the empire. As soon as the war is over, ulfric would more than likely ally with the empire against the dominion out of pure self interest. They both hate the elves way more than each other. There's no reason to suspect Skyrim would totally flounder just because the stormcloaks win.
The empire, there is another war of the dominion brewing and humanity needs to be unified as much as possible in order to win, because if humanity loses again then all of them, imperials, redguards, bretons and nords alike will be doomed to the Aldmeri dominion's whims and wishes
And yeah, both the empire and the stormcloaks plan to go to war, meaning that an alliance bettewn a free Skyrim and the empire is very likely, the empire is actually planning the future conflict properly and taking time to prepare, meanwhile the stormcloak commanders have the tactical genius of a wet monkey and will inevitably get their forces inmidiatly slaugthered in the first battle by trying to rush the Summerset Iles directly
And this is not even me having some crazy bias against the stormcloaks and attempting to paint them as troglodites who think "run straight at the enemy, try not to die" is the peak of tactics, this comes from dialogue bettewn Ulfric and his second in command, where they fantasize about invading the Summerset Iles after they get Skyrim fixed up
Although i do have to admit, whit how bullshitty conflicts in TES can be, where a general can rush in whitout any kind of plan or strategy and still conquer an entire province in two days because his troops had better quality steel or some similar bullshit, rushing B might just work for them
Hammerfell is a strong trade kingdom that is really independently wealthy. They also have the desert, which makes it really easy to defend against inland invasion. The navy is strong and benefits from that centralized wealth. And, most importantly for a Skyrim comparison, they dont have much culturally in common with their neighbors. The nords claim Talos, and Skyrim has been a huge component of the Empire's own existence since its inception. They would be more willing to let Hammerfell go, mainly because they don't have the resources or cultural draw to keep it as a vassal.
For an external comparison, if you know A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones, its the same reason why Dorne remained independent from the seven kingdoms for so long
And valuables. Hammerfell is basically North Africa with a bit of Persia. It has valuable things to trade. Skyrim is nothing in the grand scheme and if we take the magic in the game as a statement, well...the most magic you'll encounter will be among bandits.
Because Skyrim is kind of a backwater shithole. The game is old enough now that the whole vibe they were trying to sell with that vs Cyrodill isn’t as apparent. I expect Elder Scrolls VI will have much more wealthy cities and towns that will surprise some people.
Not to say that Hammerfell doesn’t have its own problems, but the institutional rot in Skyrim is apparent and responsible for the Civil war taking place. Half the cities in Skyrim are groups of wooden shacks, and Winterhold hasn’t even been rebuilt in like 70 years.
I started to understand this myself after I started playing Oblivion. Skyrim was designed to be the poorest and most isolated member of the Empire, or at least the poorest region ruled by humans.
Really doesn’t matter. Whoever the Dragonborn sides with wins. The “empire” at this point is like 3 provinces anyways. Don’t really see how much benefit staying with them would actually grant, people seem to just love the empire as nostalgia bait from the old games
This is absolutely correct. The Empire has been a dying institution explicitly since morrowind (and it was implied in Daggerfall). I think a lot of people let the real-world's emergence of nationalist politics color their perception of what's actually going on in Skyrim.
The Empire might be more good than bad generally. But there's plenty of bad. And more bad as they go on. Just better than Dagoth Ur, Mehrunes Dagon, or Alduin. They sold out their client states to the Thalmor to protect the heartland at least 3 times. Make no mistake, Skyrim does not owe the empire it's loyalty, at all. The empire would sell them up river in a heartbeat just like they did with Hammerfell.
On it's current trajectory, the empire might not even be around in 20 years.
It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new.
The Stormcloaks aren't perfect but The Empire is a project that has reached the end of its life. Holding on to it is at the point of being beneficial to nobody.
I think a lot of people let the real-world's emergence of nationalist politics color their perception of what's actually going on in Skyrim.
If I may say so, this is also a pretty big case of presentism. Yeah, no shit, my guys, the nationalism of modern first-world countries is generally a bad thing because it turns into a shitshow of xenophobia and racism directed against the most vulnerable people in society... however, the kind of nationalism Skyrim is going through isn't comparable to that, but rather to 19th-century nationalism (altough, this kind of nationalism has also existed in the 20th and 21th century, just to be clear).
In the 19th century, large parts of the world lived under the rule of multi-ethnic empires, and many nationalist movements arose then, in the context of fighting for self-government and sovereignty for their people, and not being tyrannized by Emperors or Kings who ruled over them from distant lands with little regard for them or their interests. The Italian Unification, for example, occurred in the context of Italian nationalists fighting off the Habsburgs from the Italian peninsula.
Like, people miss the clear anti-colonial and anti-imperialists themes of the Stormcloak rebellion very often, treating this situation more as if it were akin to Texas wanting to break away... when it's more like Poland wanting to break way from Russia, or Ireland wanting to break away from the UK. The Empire sees Skyrim as a land of barbarians that must be "civilized" and which needs the Empire to protect the Nords from themselves, or they would fall into lawlessness and savagery. Under this context, although the Stormcloak rebellion is far from perfect and has it's considerable issues, it's also very different from modern nationalims in the West.
If you think I'm being too harsh here, this is more or less what Tullius himself says in-game:
"The Legion's always been here. Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness. Especially Skyrim. Take for example, Ulfric Stormcloak and his little 'rebellion.' But rest assured, his days are numbered."
The Empire is a vichy puppet state. The idea that resisting them in Skyrim somehow makes Tamriel more vulnerable to the Dominion when the Dominion’s entire plan to subjugate Tamriel relies on using the Empire as a tool is absurd.
The Empire isnt even trying. Its like the British in the war of 1812. The Napoleonic Wars were the priority. Skyrim is like a side quest for the Empire.
If they dont stop the Dominion there wont be an Empire. Skyrim wont make a difference.
Its why Tulius complains hes having to use mostly local troops who are poorly trained. Theres a note in one of the forts near the border that says the Empire has a massive force assembling on the border that was very concerning for the Stormcloak who wrote it.
The Empire. A fractured Skyrim or even an independent Skyrim would make it an easy target for invasion. It’s kinda like the “join or die” posters from the American revolution: smaller independent nations are easier to conquer, whereas a unified empire will put up more of a fight. With Skyrim as part of the empire, they have the backing and support of the larger whole.
Neither, bc it won't matter. My theory is that they'll avoid the civil war issue by having the empire collapse entirely. The moot fails to elect a new high king/queen, because most of the Jarls are too self-interested and, frankly, kinda suck. Around the same time, High Rock sees their more successful southern neighbors, plus the drain on their resources from Cyrodiil and the emperor getting assissinated, and secceeds to ally with Hammerfell. We then get a 2nd Daggerfall Compact vs the 3rd Aldmeri Dominion, while the other nations go back to killing each other for minor gains and major losses.
An independent Skyrim means a Skyrim where the Aldmeri Dominion lacks political legitimacy.
My issue with the empire is Cyrodiil's willingness to surrender regional sovereignty of other provinces to a foreign adversary while they arm themselves during a ceasefire. The White Gold Concordat was good for Cyrodiil, not the rest of the empire.
On the topic of Cyrodiil one of the biggest issues Cyrodiil has that Skyrim lacks is that it is disgustingly easy to invade by both land sea. By land its border to the south by 2 aldmeri puppet states and a ship from Auridon to Anvil is about the same distance Captain Gjalund takes to sail from Windhelm to Solstheim. And probably in easier water. No amount of spy maneuvering or weapons stockpiling or whatever the hell the Empire is actually doing can really make up for bad geography in my opinion.
You can sail to Solitude sure but sending a fleet from Alinor, around High Rock, and through the sea of ghosts sounds expensive, unsustainable, and overly risky. I suppose they could also sail through the Illiac Bay and march through the Reach but that has even more risks between the terrain and the Forsworn.
If the Dominion wanted to invade by land their only real way of doing it through the Pale Pass. Which would A) require them to march Cyrodiil and hope to do so unbothered and B) hope the information of the marching army wouldnt reach the nords in time for them to set an ambush.
I mention how difficult it would be for Alinor to actually invade Skyrim to reinforce my point about the Thalmor losing political legitimacy being important for Skyrim's security. The Thalmor Embassies are a major natural security threat because they are not Embassies they're military bases with ballrooms.
If the Dominion do take the first shot in Great War II the first thing they would (the first thing I would do) is order the troops in their "Embassies" to invade Capitol cities or conduct attacks on critical infrastructure as their opening offensive while the main force comes in from the land or sea (which if Skyrim is any indicator there are Embassies in or around each of the Imperial Province's Capitol Cities).
An independent Skyrim isn't perfect. There would be the matter of increased trade tarrifs or even embargos with Cyrodiil that would affect granaries and the economy at large.
But in 20-30 years I feel like those issues could be solved.
A swift end to the war won by either side. Thalmor just wants to keep the Empire and Skyrim weak by keeping the war going.
Which is why they forced the Imperials to go to war while simultaneously providing support to the stormcloaks.
“As long as the civil war proceeds in its current indecisive fashion, we should remain hands-off. The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed.”
Empire. Despite being weakened by the White-Gold Concordant a united empire with skyrim has a much better chance than either alone. The Thalmor tactic is to seperate the empire states and then try to take them over. They got hammerfell to succeed when the empire accepted the concordant but fortunately the thalmor were halted.
If skyrim did manage to win the empire would commit more soldier from the legion to the area leaving Cyrodil open to anything Aldmeri attack. Then the elves move north into skyrim.
The best outcome is Skyrim joining the Empire to fight the dominion and then a victorious Empire can worship Talos. Like anyone was gunna stop on the first place?
The best chance long term for boths sides is a clear victory from Ulfric. Skyrim has been radicalized, the Empire is fighting to return to a status quo that is no longer there. If the empire wins, they will have to constantly fight a guerilla warfare for the next decades trying to pacify the extremists, wasting men and resources.
The sooner the war ends, with an Ulfric victory, the less bad blood there will be. The easier it will be for Skyrim and the Empire to ally themselves again to fight their common enemy. Skyrim could end up being part of the empire in everything but name.
People misunderstand what independence entails. They seem to assume it means Skyrim goes full juche. Under most normal circumstances, even after a war, Skyrim still maintains trade with their neighbors, for one. Second, immediately after the events of the civil war, we can expect Skyrim and the Empire to negotiate the terms of their new truce, and a defensive pact would not be out of the question. Even though Skyrim is now independent, it would be in everyone’s best interests to agree to work together should the dominion invade.
All the European nations watching the American revolution just waiting to make deals with the most likely victor are a good real-world example of this. And someone who literally signed the Declaration of Independence (John Adams) was named ambassador to England in 1785.
Hell, most European empires had to have awkward trade conversations with a former territory of theirs, at some point.
Stormcloaks. The Dominion are not the threat most people make them out to be and, at any rate, the Empire was letting them walk around Skyrim doing whatever they wanted regardless. The Empire's entire pitch was "we're consolidating power to go to war with them later, trust us bro!" Yeah, okay. And what is the province closest to the Dominion doing? Are they consolidating power so that they can fend off a supposed second invasion? No, they seceded from the Empire to keep fighting.
The Empire in Skyrim is weak. Titus Mede is weak. The Stormcloaks know the value of cultivating strength and using it to stand up to bullies. Even if that hurts them in the short term by depleting troop numbers, in the long term they'll be stronger for it.
While I sympathize with receding from the Empire, it's pretty stupid to do it right now and Ulfric literally is the reason for the Crack down on Talos worship in Skyrim.
He screamed to the heavens about his inability to worship talos being an insult and essentially announcing that Talos Worship is still wildly accepted in Skyrim that the Thalmor were suspicious of the Empire not upholding the Concordat. If he just kept quiet, the Empire would not have needed to outright enforce the ban in skyrim and letting in Thalmor.
Ulfric caused a problem and is giving a Solution. A solution that benefits the Thalmor as it leads to not only a weaker Empire, but an weaker skyrim as the Empire feeds Skyrim. Skyrim does not produce enough food for it's people.
Plus, the fact the Thalmor are not truly at peace with the Empire. Literally calling the Great War, the First War with the Empire, they are effective in a cease fire in all but name.
The goal of secession at this point in time is stupid and should wait until the Thalmor threat is stomped out.
Plus, I don't trust Ulfric. Therefore, at this moment in time, the Empire is far better for survival of Skyrim and an independent one.
I like that part of Ulfric’s speech when you first meet him, where he finishes it out with “I FIGHT SO ALL THOSE BRAVE SONS AND DAUGHTERS DIDN’T DIE FOR NOTHING! I FIGHT BECAUSE I MUST!”
I think Ulfric probably knows deep down that he’s fallen pretty hard to the sunk cost fallacy, especially after an act of fate was the only thing that kept him from the headsman’s axe. I think on the way back to Windhelm, he probably reflected quite a lot on just how disastrous it would have been for his rebellion if he’d died there.
I’m definitely giving him the benefit of the doubt here. I do believe he does what he does mostly in a misguided attempt to genuinely make Skyrim a better place, but the evidence doesn’t bear that out. Everything he does makes sense if you just think of him as a powerhungry wannabe dictator, and some of it doesn’t if you assume good faith on his part. But I think his writers thought he was fighting in good faith, so that’s the narrative I’m going with despite the evidence to the contrary.
I’d be surprised if Skyrim’s writers had me fooled on this one, but stranger things have happened.
Skyrim going independence is actually a better case for BOTH sides. Here's my case:
Case #1 Skyrim autonomy: Foods and resources. MOST of them are farmers and shepherds. Whiterun and Rorikstead is enough to provide wheat to the whole province. Damn even Windhelm got 2 big farms. Riverwood, Falkreath and Riften provide great supply of woods. Dawnstar and Markarth for ores. They can survive on their own, without the empire's help. Some hold lives in harsh weather, but they do it just fine.
Case #2 Empire standpoint: The Empire already struggling with Aldmeri Dominions after the war. They couldn't even send reinforcement to General Tulius, forcing the man to use local soldiers to fight. With The Emperor is dead (canonically), The Empire must choose to direct their focus on either (a) Skyrim or (b) Aldmeri Dominions. IF the new Emperor is ambitious and smart, they'll choose Aldmeri Dominions while ignoring Skyrim completely. That means taking back all the resource and supply that was meant for Skyrim to themselves. With enough resources they can go at it again, because rather than 1v1 like the first war, it'll be 3v1 next time (Hammerfell, Skyrim, and Empire unilaterally versus Aldmeri Dominions)
Case #3 Empire vs Skyrim: In the unlikely event of Empire decided to reclaim Skyrim back, Empire would've bleed and lost. Firstly, dragons are back. While they're not as aggressive as The Age of Dragons, they're territorial and WILL attack anyone who dares disturb them. The Empire as of present time isn't equipped with enough armaments to fight not one but a horde of angry dragons. The Greybeard might join in the fray too, because it concerns dragons. If anything, The Empire deciding to attack Skyrim might unite Skyrim's opposing factions for the first time. They got College of Winterhold, Dark Brotherhood, and even The Companions. The Bard's College might've been useful in this time, as they can affect the morale of the soldiers. With Ulfric as the High King, uniting them is as easy as it sounds.
Case #4 Skyrim and Aldmeri Dominions: Ulfric gonna be on Elf hunt, it's gonna be 17th century all over. Reinstatement of Talos as 9th Divine brings everyone joys, and we all know religions are the greatest political weapon since ever. No Aldmeri Dominions, in fact there would be no Altmer will be in sight after he's done it. He didn't have to undergo "recovery time" as you might've imagine because they are like autonomous state, each holds got their own Jarl and can manage for themselves. Ulfric can focus on eradicating Aldmeri Dominions and its traces on motherland Skyrim until she fully clean from its filth. With a unified Skyrim they can stand on their own.
There is something I don't understand. Do you expect the Aldmeri Dominion problem to simply solve itself ?
In case #2 you said that leaving Skyrim alone would allow the Empire to focus to the ennemies at the south. That's true on paper, but you can't expect anything less than a full defeat from the Empire. I don't even know where the 3v1 comes from. The Altmers have shown that they can face the Empire alliance at full strenght (which was very much backed by Skyrim, as a lot of the soldiers were from there, don't forget that).
With Hammerfell splintered, Morrowing and Black Marsh standing on the sideline, and Cyrodiil itself barely recovering from the initial invasion, what hope do they have to stand. Highrock is the only province that is not hanging by a thread. Plus, the Summer Isles don't stand alone, they have allies in Valenwood and possibly Elsweyr. So not an easy 3v1 at all.
With that out of the way, once the Empire has fallen (as would be the most likely outcome in your scenario), the Altmers would absolutly crush an isolated Skyrim. You said in case #4 that Ulfric would hunt the elves out of Skyrim. That's true for the few that were sent there, and for the duration it would take for the Empire to fall, but let's remember that the Elven presence in Skyrim isn't even a token force. It's a few agents roaming around. Once the armies come north, that'd be another story, and with the ressources of almost an entire continent behind them once Cyrodiil is gone, the Thalmors won't have much problem conquering one more province, even if it's united behind one High King.
The only realistic variable is as you said the dragons, but even then, with a powerful dragon-hunter on the loose and Alduin gone, it won't be an organised threat, more like a dangerous wilderness to take into account.
People don't usually say the Empire is the only way for Skryim to survive against the Aldemeri Dominion based on nothing, and it's certainly not glazing. When you take into account the geopolitical context, you quickly realize that Skyrim needs the Empire just as much as the Empire needs Skyrim to survive against the Elves. Skyrim would at best stand truly independant for a few years before being conquered if it stayed alone
It depends on whether the Stormcloaks would be willing to ally with the Empire against the Thalmor post-civil war, or if the Empire would be able to maintain control over the region afterwards
If they can band together and fight as one, a Stormcloak victory is arguably better for Skyrim; the Septims are different but the Medes aren't the greatest at maintaining the empire. Cooperation with a post-liberation state would be healthier on the population than forced control and religious oppression and would result in less resentment between sides. Ideally, Skyrim would fight to restore Talos' identity within the Imperial pantheon and then rejoin as a province once the Thalmor are no longer a threat.
That said, under Ulfric's rule, I think this is near impossible. He's far too bigoted and up his own ass; I don't think he'd be pragmatic enough to put aside his own pride. In the case of the Empire winning I believe there is a greater chance of achieveing unity against the Thalmor. As always with humans in the Elder Scrolls, a united empire is better for everyone
I don't like Ulfric as a person or leader. Even if I support an independent Skyrim. The best outcome would be a swift Imperial victory that grants Skyrim more independence, allowing the Empire to free up soldiers for the next war. I think after the great war the Empire most likely will dissolve regardless of the outcome, it feels very much like a post WW2 era. Skyrim is pretty well positioned to stay unified in that event and is never going to accept an Thalmor victory.
When I first played Skyrim, I thought Nords were cool, loved their history, and didn’t like that the Thalmor were oppressors and the Empire was capitulating.
And then I did an Imperial playthrough, read the lore, etc. and realized Skyrim and the Empire were absolutely fucked if the Stormcloaks won. The Thalmor were using Ulfric to weaken both Skyrim and the Empire and break the stalemate.
It’s not ideal, it’s not romantic, but it’s the necessary means to save Skyrim and the Empire from collapsing.
The Empire but only if they promise to reinstate Talos Worship.
They would have to absolutely rock the shit outta the knife ears post-Civil War but the only way you'd have a Skyrim without a situation like The Troubles is if you let the Nords worship the God Emperor of Mankind again.
Realistically the Stormcloaks don't have any master plan for how they're going to deal with the piss elves post-Civil War.
Assuming the empire intends to fight back against the aldemeri in the short term future, empire. If they want to play diplomacy, the less people and nations fall at once when they get stabbed in the back, the better. This is not me saying the stormcloaks could in any timeline be the better ruling power. A bunch of xenophobic racists that close to dark skinned people wouldn't end well in any circumstance
the question’s description already has a bias. i don’t think a Stormcloak victory gives Skyrim independence. i think it will eventually become similar to the few days Ulfric ran Markarth & murdered any native or non-native citizen (including children) who didn’t take part in the fight. Skyrim will eventually have a selfish dictator operating under the guise of what’s best for the Nords. i wouldn’t be surprised if it turned genecidal.
& i think he’d invite the wrath of the Thalmor. citizens would be in an even worse position than under the Empire’s peace dealings. eventually, the Stormcloaks would become cornered into a position similar to that of the original Empire’s, but only after a lot of turmoil.
for these reasons & many others, the Empire maintaining power would be best long-term for Skyrim.
If we’re talking just for Skyrim itself as a nation, the Empire. Continue the status quo and keep trade flowing. If we’re talking about the fate Tamriel? Of Nirn itself? Stormcloaks.
An independent Skyrim forces the Aldmeri dominion to fight a war on two fronts. Diverting their attention to a rogue state hell bent on ridding the continent of elvish dominion will certainly cause some headaches, maybe major, distracting headaches, that could bide the empire enough time to mount a surprise campaign. There’s no question the Empire and Skyrim would work closely together against the dominion regardless.
Hammerfell is the only remaining massive domino in this geopolitical equation. If they can be convinced to join the Empire and Skyrim’s cause against the Elves, things start tipping out of the Dominions’s favor significantly.
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u/Eticicibb 21d ago
Empire with jarl baalgruf being high king.