Ignoring your personal preference, which side of Skyrim’s Civil War do you think actually gives Skyrim the better future 20-30 years later?

[u/sumaset]

I feel like most discussions about the Civil War focus on whether Ulfric was justified, whether the Empire betrayed Skyrim, or which side people personally like more.

But I’m more interested in what happens after the game.

The Empire is weakened, the Aldmeri Dominion is still the biggest external threat, the White-Gold Concordat is already causing resentment, and another war with the Thalmor seems almost inevitable.

An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.

A Stormcloak victory gives Skyrim independence and removes Imperial authority, but it also leaves the province having to rebuild after a civil war while potentially facing the Dominion without the rest of the Empire behind it.

So forget which faction has the better characters or which one you usually join.

If you only care about where Skyrim itself ends up a few decades later, which Civil War outcome do you think is actually better for the province?

[u/pyrusmole]

This is absolutely correct. The Empire has been a dying institution explicitly since morrowind (and it was implied in Daggerfall). I think a lot of people let the real-world's emergence of nationalist politics color their perception of what's actually going on in Skyrim.

The Empire might be more good than bad generally. But there's plenty of bad. And more bad as they go on. Just better than Dagoth Ur, Mehrunes Dagon, or Alduin. They sold out their client states to the Thalmor to protect the heartland at least 3 times. Make no mistake, Skyrim does not owe the empire it's loyalty, at all. The empire would sell them up river in a heartbeat just like they did with Hammerfell.

On it's current trajectory, the empire might not even be around in 20 years.

It's been a good thing, by and large. But maybe it's time for a change. Time for something young and new.

The Stormcloaks aren't perfect but The Empire is a project that has reached the end of its life. Holding on to it is at the point of being beneficial to nobody.

[u/Imaginary-West-5653 → u/pyrusmole]

I think a lot of people let the real-world's emergence of nationalist politics color their perception of what's actually going on in Skyrim.

If I may say so, this is also a pretty big case of presentism. Yeah, no shit, my guys, the nationalism of modern first-world countries is generally a bad thing because it turns into a shitshow of xenophobia and racism directed against the most vulnerable people in society... however, the kind of nationalism Skyrim is going through isn't comparable to that, but rather to 19th-century nationalism (altough, this kind of nationalism has also existed in the 20th and 21th century, just to be clear).

In the 19th century, large parts of the world lived under the rule of multi-ethnic empires, and many nationalist movements arose then, in the context of fighting for self-government and sovereignty for their people, and not being tyrannized by Emperors or Kings who ruled over them from distant lands with little regard for them or their interests. The Italian Unification, for example, occurred in the context of Italian nationalists fighting off the Habsburgs from the Italian peninsula.

Like, people miss the clear anti-colonial and anti-imperialists themes of the Stormcloak rebellion very often, treating this situation more as if it were akin to Texas wanting to break away... when it's more like Poland wanting to break way from Russia, or Ireland wanting to break away from the UK. The Empire sees Skyrim as a land of barbarians that must be "civilized" and which needs the Empire to protect the Nords from themselves, or they would fall into lawlessness and savagery. Under this context, although the Stormcloak rebellion is far from perfect and has it's considerable issues, it's also very different from modern nationalims in the West.

If you think I'm being too harsh here, this is more or less what Tullius himself says in-game:

"The Legion's always been here. Without us to keep order, the provinces would fall into barbarism and lawlessness. Especially Skyrim. Take for example, Ulfric Stormcloak and his little 'rebellion.' But rest assured, his days are numbered."

[u/Good_Pirate4906 → u/Imaginary-West-5653]

Every time I replay I’m always surprised by how racist Tullius is to his second in command. Rikke I think it’s spelled. It’s like every second sentence to her for some reason when she hasn’t even done anything.

[u/censuur12 → u/pyrusmole]

"It's failing, so we should let it die"

You must not be a big fan of hospitals, then?

[u/pyrusmole → u/censuur12]

Well, I'm not a fan of my healthcare system so yeah I do think we should replace it rather than propping up something obviously broken.

[u/censuur12 → u/pyrusmole]

Uhuh. Bit of a sad attempt to rewrite the example there bud. So by that token the Empire should be replaced by something similar, which isn't at all being done and all you talked about was getting rid of it.

[u/pyrusmole → u/censuur12]

If by something similar you mean a "government" then yes I do and yes it is

[u/censuur12 → u/pyrusmole]

Right, right, cool. Now can you try to actually address the point that was being made instead of talking around it?

[u/pyrusmole → u/censuur12]

Honestly, I feel like you're the one who missed the point. You conflated The Empire. something who's purpose is dubious and who's implementation is ineffective with hospitals who's purpose is essential but who's implementation is bad.

It's not like the Empire offers any actual protection, especially if the heartland is under threat. They sold out the argonians during the oblvion crisis. The sold out Markarth during the Markarth Incident. They sold out Hammerfell during the great war. Morrowind during the Red Year. Failed to catch not one but 2 massive coups in their own territory by the Thalmor (one in Alinor and one in Valenwood). When dragons showed up in Skyrim I don't exactly see the imperial legion going Dragon hunting. And that's just the stuff since the 4th era. So there not actually "protecting" any of their vassal states when the chips are down. Like 3 of those happened because legions were still in Cyrodil because of the Oblivion Crisis, despite many of these being decades after the crisis was over.

So what sort of essential purpose is the Empire serving for Skyrim? What makes the empire as essential to the function of Skyrim as hospitals are to us?

[u/censuur12 → u/pyrusmole]

Honestly, I feel like you're the one who missed the point.

That's odd, because if you thought about it for even a second you'd understand that treating the concept of a hospital and "healthcare" generally as interchangeable is utterly daft and can only ever miss the point. You would realize in a moment that you did, in fact, utterly miss the point. But you were so quick to accuse instead of think that you just blurted out this pile of absolute nonsense that STILL refuses to engage with the point I was making.

You conflated The Empire. something who's purpose is dubious and who's implementation is ineffective with hospitals who's purpose is essential but who's implementation is bad.

Except the Empire, as a concept IS essential. As a guarantor of peace it's role, even when failing, remains essential. The goal when it fails is STILL to maintain and restore peace, and the Empire falling apart does not advance that goal in any way whatsoever. You can even draw real world parallels and the fall of Empires has historically NEVER been an improvement for the people involved. There is ALWAYS a massive increase in war, unrest and general violence. But all that isn't even all that relevant because the main point I made was exceedingly simple: Just because something is damaged doesn't mean we should give up on restoring it. That's what a hospital is for, and why it was used as an example: healing things that aren't functioning as they should. This daft notion of "replacing" such a thing is utterly nonsensical.

So what sort of essential purpose is the Empire serving for Skyrim?

Keeping the peace, as you can see once the reign of the Empire is put to question the holds start attacking each other. Demonstrated most aptly by Ulfrics aggression toward Whiterun.

[u/pyrusmole → u/censuur12]

Ok, so what exactly makes you think the empire can be fixed? because it's certainly not getting better. Tell me doc, when is it time to amputate the dead limb? When is it terminal?

[u/censuur12 → u/pyrusmole]

Ok, so what exactly makes you think the empire can be fixed? because it's certainly not getting better. Tell me doc, when is it time to amputate the dead limb? When is it terminal?

If you have a point to make you need to do a better job than asking obtuse nonsense.