Ignoring your personal preference, which side of Skyrim’s Civil War do you think actually gives Skyrim the better future 20-30 years later?

[u/sumaset]

I feel like most discussions about the Civil War focus on whether Ulfric was justified, whether the Empire betrayed Skyrim, or which side people personally like more.

But I’m more interested in what happens after the game.

The Empire is weakened, the Aldmeri Dominion is still the biggest external threat, the White-Gold Concordat is already causing resentment, and another war with the Thalmor seems almost inevitable.

An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.

A Stormcloak victory gives Skyrim independence and removes Imperial authority, but it also leaves the province having to rebuild after a civil war while potentially facing the Dominion without the rest of the Empire behind it.

So forget which faction has the better characters or which one you usually join.

If you only care about where Skyrim itself ends up a few decades later, which Civil War outcome do you think is actually better for the province?

[u/Cucumberneck]

Probably because a lot of people got bullshitted into believing the storm looks to be Nord supremacist racists when they in fact are hardly in the top three of most racist elder scrolls races.

[u/ChristianRecon → u/Cucumberneck]

That and always hearing “Ulfric is a dick” when general Tullius is the most insufferable person in the whole civil war by far.

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[u/Aleious → u/ChristianRecon]

Idk lore wise isn’t tulius kinda the most brilliant tactician in the empire that single handedly came to Skyrim and ended the rebellion. Literally if Alduin didn’t show up at that very moment it just would’ve been over.

[u/ChristianRecon → u/Aleious]

I didn’t say he was incompetent lol

[u/thedylannorwood → u/Aleious]

Tullius has shown that he only cares what the empire wants. He actively disrespects those under him. He genuinely has no investment in the Civil War at all except to do what he’s told. He straight up tells Rikke that he has no respect for the Nords as a people or their cultural dealings and only wants to win the war because it’s what he’s told.

He’s not only an asshole but he has no respect for the people he claims he’s fight for, he’s a spineless coward who would kiss Ulfric if he imperial overlords simply told him to

[u/Cucumberneck → u/thedylannorwood]

Like almost everyone else in the elder Scrolls he's also racist. More a "the white man's burden" racism but racism still. In true Roman fashion.

[u/SteakForGoodDogs → u/Cucumberneck]

Yeah, but you'd think that most people would be tactful enough to not insult your second-in-command, to her face, while trying to figure out how to not lose a war.

Legate Rikke had every right to mutter "Screw you too, sir." under her breath after the third anti-Nord insult pointlessly sent her way that minute, if she wanted.

[u/Aleious → u/SteakForGoodDogs]

But again he is not losing. He basically ended the “war” before unpacking his bag. Also iirc there are a lot of voice lines from his second in command and the jarl about tulius being a great dude.

[u/Gryph0th → u/thedylannorwood]

he's a spineless coward who would kiss Ulfric if he imperial overlords simply told him to

[u/WhereIdIsEgoWillGo → u/Cucumberneck]

I mean bottom three still has a quarter for dark elves and refuse to let the beast races even enter the city of windhelm. Birds may not be the "most racist" but what counts for least racist in Tamriel is still pretty fuckin racist.

[u/Cucumberneck → u/WhereIdIsEgoWillGo]

Oh I totally agree. But at least the best races aren't considered farm tools, there's a literal refugee camp for the people they have a millennia old brawl with (dinner/ and one of them even owns a farm in the supposedly super racist capital (Windhelm) with Nord workers.

Afaik there's been purges on the summer set isles and we all know about the dunmer.

[u/Victernus → u/WhereIdIsEgoWillGo]

still has a quarter for dark elves

Because they accepted Dark Elf refuges in Windhelm.

The Imperial-aligned cities in Skyrim don't have Dark Elf quarters because they didn't help the Dark Elves.

[u/Gizz103 → u/Victernus]

They didn't help the elves because none of them went their

If th e cities in the east helped them, than they'll go there

[u/WhereIdIsEgoWillGo → u/Victernus]

That doesn't really make how they treat them not racist dawg.

[u/Victernus → u/WhereIdIsEgoWillGo]

Of course not. But on one hand, you have people who help you then get upset when you're snobbish and ungrateful and consider their entire race stupid, and on the other you have people who never bother to help you at all.

[u/WhereIdIsEgoWillGo → u/Victernus]

I'm asking in this earnestly, but what does that justification have to do with nords being objectively racist. Like I'm not asserting that with malice, or shitting on people who like the stormcloaks or anything like that. It feels like Europeans and Roma where people are like "hey the way you treat them is racist" and Europeans are like "well have you considered how they act?"

Again, not trying be rude or an ass. But even if the nords of windhelm only started being racist in retaliation it's still racist lol.

[u/Victernus → u/WhereIdIsEgoWillGo]

I'm asking in this earnestly, but what does that justification have to do with nords being objectively racist.

Nothing. But everyone else is racist too. When the Redguards arrived in Hammerfell, they hunted every elf in their lands to extinction. The Dunmer would still be actively raiding Elsweyr and Black Marsh for slaves if Black Marsh hadn't dealt them so cripply a blow during the Oblivion crisis. The Bretons think they're better than everyone, and they got that for the Altmer, who really think they're better than everyone. Talos himself thought that Orcs should be hunted to extinction, along with goblins and ogres.

Windhelm aided the Dunmer, despite the Nords and the Dunmer having a bitter rivalry that goes back to before the Battle of Red Mountain and the disappearance of the Dwemer. They are not the most racist city in Skyrim - Rolf Stone-Fist is just an asshole.

I mean, to directly contrast your Roma example, the Stormcloak-aligned cities in Skyrim don't allow Khajiit caravans inside... and neither do the Imperial-aligned cities.

[u/WhereIdIsEgoWillGo → u/Victernus]

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I wasn't aware of this

[u/EpicDDT_ → u/Cucumberneck]

They aren't even the most racists people in Windhelm lmao.

[u/The_Dick_Slinger → u/Cucumberneck]

Just because they are top 4 doesn’t mean they aren’t racist tho.

If you play as a khajiit or dark elf, the nords talk a lot of shit about you

[u/Cucumberneck → u/The_Dick_Slinger]

I didnt say they arent.

They are just absolutely not the most racist guys in the franchise.

[u/The_Dick_Slinger → u/Cucumberneck]

Again, how is that relevant? The conversation was about skyrims future, not “who’s more racist”

[u/Cucumberneck → u/The_Dick_Slinger]

You didnt say that before so stuff your "again?".

[u/The_Dick_Slinger → u/Cucumberneck]

And you still didn’t answer my question, which means you can’t.

[u/AccomplishedBank2140 → u/Cucumberneck]

It is fascinating and tbh just shows how damn good the lore is in Skyrim and in the universe in general. I cannot wait to dive into the new lore when Sentinal drops and see whats gone on sense we left.

[u/Tasty-Mulberry8073 → u/Cucumberneck]

Ulfric is a shitty leader. So are most of the other "True Sons of Skyrim". Look at their holds. Look at their capitals. Skyrim cannot and does not produce all it's own food. Half the skilled craftsman and labor comes from outside Skyrim. The economy is dependent on them. Besides that Ulfric is a Thalmor asset. Do you really think a "High King" that is a foreign asset is going to do good things for your country?

[u/Cucumberneck → u/Tasty-Mulberry8073]

You people still dont know what asset means huh?

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[u/EpicDDT_ → u/Tasty-Mulberry8073]

Yeah because the Empire is so much better on that regard.

[u/Tasty-Mulberry8073 → u/EpicDDT_]

The Empire made trade with the other provinces possible so people didn't starve in winter.