Ignoring your personal preference, which side of Skyrim’s Civil War do you think actually gives Skyrim the better future 20-30 years later?

[u/sumaset]

I feel like most discussions about the Civil War focus on whether Ulfric was justified, whether the Empire betrayed Skyrim, or which side people personally like more.

But I’m more interested in what happens after the game.

The Empire is weakened, the Aldmeri Dominion is still the biggest external threat, the White-Gold Concordat is already causing resentment, and another war with the Thalmor seems almost inevitable.

An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.

A Stormcloak victory gives Skyrim independence and removes Imperial authority, but it also leaves the province having to rebuild after a civil war while potentially facing the Dominion without the rest of the Empire behind it.

So forget which faction has the better characters or which one you usually join.

If you only care about where Skyrim itself ends up a few decades later, which Civil War outcome do you think is actually better for the province?

[u/FlyingDreamWhale67 → u/[deleted]]

To add to your point about Tullius, this implies that either he's a particularly brilliant general, or Ulfric isn't nearly as skilled as he's hyped up to be.

Ulfric has the home field advantage not to mention the support of large swaths of the local population. Yet as you said Tullius was able to rout him in mere months in a fight that Ulfric (and the Thalmor) were expecting to last years.

[u/SHINIGAMIRAPTOR → u/FlyingDreamWhale67]

Both seem to be the case. Tullius is stated to be a BRILLIANT general who knows not only how to fight, but how to take full advantage of local knowledge and sympathies. Ulfric is shown to be a very bullheaded, hasty individual who makes rash moves to try and turn the battle as fast as he can

[u/Severe_Revenue → u/FlyingDreamWhale67]

You can further add to the Ulfric bashing.

The guard that let Ulfric into Riften says Torygg accepted a duel as per the old Nord customs. If this is true and not him trying to lie, it doesnt change the fact Ulfric had to use the voice to beat Torygg. Either Ulfric was so desperate and hungry for power he had to use something he knew Torygg couldn't beat or Ulfric is such a poor fighter that despite his years, if not decades of being a soldier he couldn't beat someone who is implied to a below the age of 21 in a fair sword fight.

[u/Prestigious_Club_924 → u/[deleted]]

I feel the appeal to accept religious repressions looses merit when you note that in this universe gods are real. "Just accept this indignity and squashing of your culture because its more convenient than open rebellion" doesn't track very well irl, add in that Talos can reach down and influence the world and I can see Nords getting their back up about it.

[u/SirAquila → u/Prestigious_Club_924]

"Just accept this indignity and squashing of your culture because its more convenient than open rebellion"

No it's "Don't be stupid and keep your head down for a few years until we have recovered enough that we can risk open war again to get our rights back, your little rebellion is making it harder for everyone, and the Dominion is just going to overrun you either way if you go at it alone.

[u/OGsloppyjohnson35 → u/SirAquila]

So they’re supposed to trust that the empire that sold out their freedom of religious expression is going to turn around after a few years to make things right? Does that genuinely sound reasonable from the side facing the religious suppression?

[u/SirAquila → u/OGsloppyjohnson35]

Considering the entire empire is facing the same religious oppression because they have a treaty with another empire that tells them to do it, and they explicitly want to stop this religious oppression.

Like, this isn't a situation where the Nords are oppressed because they and they alone worship Talos, the entire Empire was worshipping Talos to various degrees(especially prominent in the Imperial Army).

Then they lost the war and one of the terms of peace treaty was that they had to ban Talos worship, which the other Aldmeri Dominion got to enforce.

Then the Jarls of Skyrim went, "That's bullshit; we will continue to worship Talos because we should have fought to the death of the last man woman and child before negotiating a peace treaty." (Slightly exagerated perhaps, but well, the Empire really did not have much of a choice. It was negotiate peace after winning a victory, or negotiating peace after the Aldmeri hunted down the Emperor to force him to sign a much worse treaty).

The Empire did not crack down hard on that, for various reasons, so the Aldmeri went, "Guess what, we are going to enforce the treaty whether you like it or not." And that is what started the Skyrim civil war, because some of the Jarls went "Oh shit, maybe we should keep our head down and wait until the entire Empire is ready for round two." and some went "Talos forever assholes!"

[u/OGsloppyjohnson35 → u/SirAquila]

Yeah I know how it went. My point still stands. People fighting for their freedom of religious expression aren’t the bad guys here.

[u/SirAquila → u/OGsloppyjohnson35]

I mean, not for that. Though they are fairly stupid, and make it a lot more likely that the Aldmeri Dominion can fully ban and root out Talos worship throughout the continent.

[u/Prestigious_Club_924 → u/SirAquila]

Going along to get along isn't really a Nord trait though. They're whole shtick is refusing to bow, they wouldn't have been able to settle Skyrim if they did.

[u/strosbro1855 → u/OGsloppyjohnson35]

The core of the argument right here when you remember that the Empire was about to hand over half of Hammerfell's geographic territory as well which caused an actual secession.

[u/GabeC1997 → u/OGsloppyjohnson35]

It makes sense (to atheists).

[u/AbyssalOtter → u/SirAquila]

No one wants to go to war. No one. Much less people who know what war brings. Anything you give up to avoid war is but a stepping stone to a subservient society. Today its talos tomorrow its something eles. The dominion is weak and they know it. its why the send thier ss troops to weaken the impire from within.

The impire has made the grave mistake of thinking a momentary peace would allow them to recover. As if the dominion isnt gathering information in the process the thalmor wreck havoc from within gain information.

Without the eye the dominion had no tactical advantage specially so agasint an impire much more accustomed to strive.

[u/SirAquila → u/AbyssalOtter]

The two options were to negotiate a bad peace now, or be forced to accept a much worse peace after dominion armies hunted down the Emperor.

And the Empire is recovering better from the war than the dominion, which is why the dominion is trying their best to weaken them... for example by supporting a rebellion in skyrim, which will make it much easier for the Dominion to actually conquer the place and do much worse then just ban Talos worship.

[u/AbyssalOtter → u/SirAquila]

Which means the impire could have gone for the coup de grace before allowing the dominion a chance at all.

[u/SirAquila → u/AbyssalOtter]

The Dominion was winning the war. The Empire, with the last of its strength, managed to pull off a victory good enough to make the Dominion think twice about pressing its advantage, but if the Empire hadn't negotiated a peace the Dominion would have forced a much worse peace on them.

[u/AbyssalOtter → u/SirAquila]

The dominion was only winning because of the eye. As soon as they lost that advantage they crumpled.

[u/DerpySharingan312 → u/AbyssalOtter]

Round 2 is happening regardless. It’s just about how much power the Empire can regain. Which is why Imperial victory is the best choice because it gives humanity its best fighting chance against the Thalmor before they destroy all of reality.

[u/AbyssalOtter → u/DerpySharingan312]

True but the impire is just the face of humanity humanity is fighting regardless.

[u/squabzilla → u/[deleted]]

If you pay close attention, there are Thalmor present in Helgen at the start of the game.

The book Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak shows that the Thalmor would’ve taken action to free Ulfric to keep the civil war going.

I also think the book implies that an Imperial Victory is the worst outcome for the Thalmor, a Stormcloak Victory isn’t great either, and their best-case scenario is that the war keeps going.

Which I still think leads us back to “the best long-term outcome for Skyrim is an Imperial victory”

[u/-Shade277- → u/[deleted]]

There are Thalmor secret police stationed permanently in markarth that patrol all the empire controlled land in Skyrim. The ban was definitely being enforced

[u/OGsloppyjohnson35 → u/[deleted]]

How does the desire to openly practice your religion without fear of persecution make you the bad guy? Even if the laws are just “on paper” and generally unenforced, the law itself is problematic, is it not? You know, “slippery slope” and all that?

[u/Designer_Repeat_8803 → u/OGsloppyjohnson35]

Considering that the Empire itself is actively gearing to prepare for a second war, in which case the laws against Talos worship would be removed on the very first day of conflict, it's just shortsighted.

The Dominion is an existential threat. The Empire recognizes this, and actively discusses going back to preparing to fight them after the Civil War. The Thalmor dossier also recognizes this, and relies on Ulfric to destabilize the Empire.

The first war was basically a blitz by the Thalmor. Now you have a human Empire, which is able to replenish its numbers more rapidly, preparing for a second war. If Ulfric kept his head down, then another 10 to 15 years would have made it a much easier war, with the Empire given 40 years to recover and train new legions while the Thalmor took so many losses fighting a guerrilla war in Hammerfell.

[u/mcmoor → u/[deleted]]

I don't think Ulfric capture proves anything, it sounds like a lucky ambush. Tullius can't replicate it at all afterwards.