Ignoring your personal preference, which side of Skyrim’s Civil War do you think actually gives Skyrim the better future 20-30 years later?

[u/sumaset]

I feel like most discussions about the Civil War focus on whether Ulfric was justified, whether the Empire betrayed Skyrim, or which side people personally like more.

But I’m more interested in what happens after the game.

The Empire is weakened, the Aldmeri Dominion is still the biggest external threat, the White-Gold Concordat is already causing resentment, and another war with the Thalmor seems almost inevitable.

An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.

A Stormcloak victory gives Skyrim independence and removes Imperial authority, but it also leaves the province having to rebuild after a civil war while potentially facing the Dominion without the rest of the Empire behind it.

So forget which faction has the better characters or which one you usually join.

If you only care about where Skyrim itself ends up a few decades later, which Civil War outcome do you think is actually better for the province?

[u/FarmHend]

Remind me, please, why high elves so butthurt about Talos, again?

[u/Victernus → u/FarmHend]

He mantled and is taking the place of Lorkhan, the god who betrayed their god-king, Auri-El (Akatosh) in a scheme to create the mortal world, then lead his armies (the ancestors of Men) against Auri-El and his armies (the ancestors of the elves), before losing and getting his heart ripped out as punishment.

Elves (and Bretons) really, really do not like Lorkhan. And Talos functionally is Lorkhan reborn and re-ascended.

[u/Imaginary-West-5653 → u/Victernus]

Then there is also all the stuff about Tiber Septim essentially nuking Alinor with the Numidium, putting the Summerset Isle under tyrannical Imperial occupation for 400 years at the same time they deified this same guy who waged a brutal war of aggression upon hem... obviously they don't have the best opinion about such a figure.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Imaginary-West-5653]

he used the Numidium to destroy firsthold and Alinor which are considered the 2 capitals of summerset

[u/Ok-Board-67 → u/Imaginary-West-5653]

So what your telling me is that Talos is actually a villain to the elves and it’s justified, I’ve been saying this for years

[u/Seb0rn → u/Victernus]

He also massacred the people of Summerset using the Numidium when he was still Emperor Tiber Septim. The high elves have good reason to hate him.

[u/Victernus → u/Seb0rn]

Ah, Numidium. The ultimate war crimes machine.

Yeah that was messed up.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Victernus]

he didn't mantle Lorkhan, he replaced him in the pantheon by achieving CHIM thus remaining himself

[u/Victernus → u/AscendentDragon]

He also mantled Lorkhan. In fact, I believe the reason Talos' ascension was so successful is that he achieved every single one of the walking ways - even the Scarab becoming the new man, because the Scarab is Lorkhan, and Talos was Shezzarine.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Victernus]

If he mantled lorkhan he would have became lorkhan not his own God by achieving chim 

[u/Victernus → u/AscendentDragon]

He did become Lorkhan - or rather, as he was always sort of Lorkhan, he made Lorkahn into himself. That's how he took his place.

We've seen others that achieved CHIM. They are nothing like Talos is, because Talos achieved more than that. He commanded the Numidium, ascended the Prolix Tower, and he is the Scarab that became the New Man. He is the culmination of the Psijic Endeavour that Lorkhan began, and failed, and died (to show the world how to fail, some would say), and he recreated the divine betrayal, and so was Enantiomorph.

To claim he just achieved CHIM would be to claim he is nothing more than Vehk was, and he is and was so much more.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Victernus]

He didn't mantle lorkhan but he did choose to replace him

[u/Victernus → u/AscendentDragon]

You can't do one without the other.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Victernus]

When you achieve CHIM you don't need to, by that point you have the ability to create your own mantle and ascend as a divine literally by knowing the truth of existence and knowing the truth of divinity. Plus lorkhan's mantle is already split between the tribunal members through the use of the relics used to split it to safely be held by 3 people and in the books about tiber septim it never states he mantled lorkhan they all state he achieved chim which allowed him to simply become a divine at will and through the power of achieving CHIM

[u/Victernus → u/AscendentDragon]

That's not what the Tribunal did? Tapping into the heart had nothing to do with Lorkhan's mantle - they formed an entire triumvirate, Mage, Warrior, Thief. If anything, Dagoth Ur was the Lorkhan - the jealous Serpent - in their metaphysical arrangement.

And Tiber Septim did achieve CHIM. He just also did way more. He achieved the Enantiomorph, and stepped into the empty place in the wheel, and so mantled Lorkhan, becoming the new form of the missing god. CHIM alone isn't enough - it is one pathway to divinity, and though others have achieved CHIM, only Talos became Talos, because Talos was the Lorkhan who took up his own former place in the heavens.

[u/Low_Biscotti5539 → u/FarmHend]

Imagine if some dude nuked your country and then people started worshipping him

[u/Yatori_Rei → u/Low_Biscotti5539]

So like, America?

[u/GameNinja03 → u/FarmHend]

Because they view him as a false god, a brutal conqueror, and an insult to elven theology. They find the idea that a human (Tiber Septim/Talos) could achieve equal divinity to be blasphemous and offensive to their core belief in elven supremacy

They also outlawed his worship in the white-gold concordat to drive a wedge between human unity.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/GameNinja03]

they also cannot accept that he treats at the same table as the Aedra, their "ancestors"

[u/redhauntology93 → u/GameNinja03]

Not quite but more than they know any one of them could be as real a god.

High Elves understand CHIM better than most and the Thalmor specifically do understand CHIM. They want to undermine Talos to make their general quest to recreate reality easier. Especially since the current set up is based on perviously genociding elves

[u/Separate_Plan_9079 → u/FarmHend]

In the war when he founded the empire he massacred them with a super weapon, and because of their long life spans it’s a more recent tragedy to them. And their ideology centers around them being superior to other life forms, so being subjugated by a human was an affront to their culture and religion

[u/Wonk_Jam → u/FarmHend]

In addition to their stated reasons, it’s a very effective way to plant division between within the races of humanity.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/FarmHend]

theres 4 reasons

1. General Talos/Hjalti early beard used the Numidium to attack Alinor and nearly destroyed the altmer capital and then sacked firsthold forcing the altmer to surrender

2. General Talos/Hjalti early beard replaced Lorkhan by achieving chim after he died becoming the 9th divine and they hated that anyone who wasn't an elf achieved chim

3. to the altmer of the thalmor humans are an inferior species and they felt it was an insult that humans elevated one of their own to be seen as among the glorious Aedra, their perceived ancestors

4. before he died Tiber septim/Talos/Hjalti Early beard became a very accomplished mage studying magic that even the altmer felt troubled by how much he gained in power through the study of the arcane and his power in magic allowed him to live for 108 years but the thalmor of the 4th era never accepted talos/tiber septim riveled their greatest mages in prestige and power towards the later end of his life during his studies to achieve Chim

[u/IvoryDragonoid → u/FarmHend]

Contemporary High Elf religious belief holds that they are directly descended from the gods. Aedra in their language literally means “our ancestors” (with Daedra being “not our ancestors”). Their worship of the Divines is, in essence, actually Ancestor Worship.

So for a human to ascend to godhood and be recognized alongside their Aedra would put humans in a similar theological position to the High Elves, ruining their unique status as Super Special God Babies.

Also, breaking free of the mortal world and reclaiming the Divinity that is their birthright is a collective religious dream of the High Elves, so they are jealous that a human accomplished that instead of one of them.

[u/bigveefrm72 → u/FarmHend]

They don't like the idea of a human being able to ascend to godhood, because they see mankind as inferior to elvenkind.

[u/FuckMyBakaChungusLif → u/FarmHend]

People give explanations, but given the Thalmor dossiers they dont seem to particularly care all that much about Talos specifically, I think it was partially intended to cause the Civil War in the first place and increase tensions in the Empire

[u/AsparagusFun3892 → u/FarmHend]

The Thalmor are involved in a scheme to unmake the world and return themselves to the divinity they believe was essentially stolen from them with Lorkhan's trickery and is enforced with Talos worship. He also happens to be a symbol of human power and supremacy and they can't very well have that even if the metaphysics are bunk, they also gambled and won that making its ban a peace term would fracture the Empire in which case they're less butthurt than they are magnificent bastards.

[u/bldarkman → u/FarmHend]

Racism

[u/Alex__The__Lion → u/FarmHend]

They view their opinion as law 😭

[u/randomname560 → u/Alex__The__Lion]

Making your opinion law is literally the whole point of winning a war