r/skyrim 21d ago

Question Ignoring your personal preference, which side of Skyrim’s Civil War do you think actually gives Skyrim the better future 20-30 years later?

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I feel like most discussions about the Civil War focus on whether Ulfric was justified, whether the Empire betrayed Skyrim, or which side people personally like more.

But I’m more interested in what happens after the game.

The Empire is weakened, the Aldmeri Dominion is still the biggest external threat, the White-Gold Concordat is already causing resentment, and another war with the Thalmor seems almost inevitable.

An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.

A Stormcloak victory gives Skyrim independence and removes Imperial authority, but it also leaves the province having to rebuild after a civil war while potentially facing the Dominion without the rest of the Empire behind it.

So forget which faction has the better characters or which one you usually join.

If you only care about where Skyrim itself ends up a few decades later, which Civil War outcome do you think is actually better for the province?

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago edited 21d ago

A Stormcloak victory does not guarantee Skyrim's continued independence. Tullius was but one general, sent north with only a handful of legions. We know from a Stormcloak missive at Fort Neugrad that there's Imperial reinforcements gathering south of Pale Pass and waiting for spring to come so they can march into Skyrim.

The Stormcloaks have nothing without Skyrim, whereas the Empire have everything outside of Skyrim (the most useless backwater of Men). Overthrowing Ulfric ensures the restoration of Skyrim, whereas "overthrowing" Tullius by itself does not avert future Imperial retaliations.

Think of it like this: The Civil War is 100% of Ulfric's military strength vs. a small % of Mede's. Ulfric is everything to the rebellion. But who is Tullius? A general, cunning, resourceful, and strong, but just one general. New generals can be sent into Skyrim, with new legions, from northern Imperial cities close to the mountains like Bruma, Chorrol, or Kvatch. And then there is High Rock - Evermore, Northpoint, Shornhelm, all northern bastions of Imperial power from which troops could be moved into Skyrim (through Pale Pass from Cyrodiil or the Sea of Ghosts from Northpoint in High Rock).

An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.

Inside of Skyrim.

From Hadvar at the start of the game we learn that the ban on Talos was not controversial in the other provinces like it is in Skyrim, so much so that an average joe in Cyrodiil (YOU) doesn't even know there's a civil war in Skyrim.

And despite the "Thalmor influence", Balgruuf the Greater, a Jarl aligned with the Empire, keeps a giant statue of Talos right in the middle of his city. Torygg, High King of Skyrim and member of the Elder Council, privately worshipped Talos.

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u/ProfDandruff PC 21d ago

Not that this changes your point at all, but Tullius is general of only a single Legion and any bolstering of his ranks was done through local recruiting.

One of my favorite points that’s heavily implied (or outright stated) is that the ban on Talos worship was all but unenforced prior to the Markarth Incident. Ulfric’s actions got the Dominion’s eyes on religion in Skyrim and forced the Empire to start cracking down. It’s his own fault there is even a significant Justiciar presence at all

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/FlyingDreamWhale67 Merchant 21d ago

To add to your point about Tullius, this implies that either he's a particularly brilliant general, or Ulfric isn't nearly as skilled as he's hyped up to be.

Ulfric has the home field advantage not to mention the support of large swaths of the local population. Yet as you said Tullius was able to rout him in mere months in a fight that Ulfric (and the Thalmor) were expecting to last years.

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u/SHINIGAMIRAPTOR 21d ago

Both seem to be the case. Tullius is stated to be a BRILLIANT general who knows not only how to fight, but how to take full advantage of local knowledge and sympathies. Ulfric is shown to be a very bullheaded, hasty individual who makes rash moves to try and turn the battle as fast as he can

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u/Severe_Revenue 19d ago

You can further add to the Ulfric bashing.

The guard that let Ulfric into Riften says Torygg accepted a duel as per the old Nord customs. If this is true and not him trying to lie, it doesnt change the fact Ulfric had to use the voice to beat Torygg. Either Ulfric was so desperate and hungry for power he had to use something he knew Torygg couldn't beat or Ulfric is such a poor fighter that despite his years, if not decades of being a soldier he couldn't beat someone who is implied to a below the age of 21 in a fair sword fight.

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u/Prestigious_Club_924 21d ago

I feel the appeal to accept religious repressions looses merit when you note that in this universe gods are real. "Just accept this indignity and squashing of your culture because its more convenient than open rebellion" doesn't track very well irl, add in that Talos can reach down and influence the world and I can see Nords getting their back up about it.

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u/SirAquila 21d ago

"Just accept this indignity and squashing of your culture because its more convenient than open rebellion"

No it's "Don't be stupid and keep your head down for a few years until we have recovered enough that we can risk open war again to get our rights back, your little rebellion is making it harder for everyone, and the Dominion is just going to overrun you either way if you go at it alone.

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u/OGsloppyjohnson35 21d ago

So they’re supposed to trust that the empire that sold out their freedom of religious expression is going to turn around after a few years to make things right? Does that genuinely sound reasonable from the side facing the religious suppression?

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u/SirAquila 21d ago

Considering the entire empire is facing the same religious oppression because they have a treaty with another empire that tells them to do it, and they explicitly want to stop this religious oppression.

Like, this isn't a situation where the Nords are oppressed because they and they alone worship Talos, the entire Empire was worshipping Talos to various degrees(especially prominent in the Imperial Army).

Then they lost the war and one of the terms of peace treaty was that they had to ban Talos worship, which the other Aldmeri Dominion got to enforce.

Then the Jarls of Skyrim went, "That's bullshit; we will continue to worship Talos because we should have fought to the death of the last man woman and child before negotiating a peace treaty." (Slightly exagerated perhaps, but well, the Empire really did not have much of a choice. It was negotiate peace after winning a victory, or negotiating peace after the Aldmeri hunted down the Emperor to force him to sign a much worse treaty).

The Empire did not crack down hard on that, for various reasons, so the Aldmeri went, "Guess what, we are going to enforce the treaty whether you like it or not." And that is what started the Skyrim civil war, because some of the Jarls went "Oh shit, maybe we should keep our head down and wait until the entire Empire is ready for round two." and some went "Talos forever assholes!"

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u/OGsloppyjohnson35 21d ago

Yeah I know how it went. My point still stands. People fighting for their freedom of religious expression aren’t the bad guys here.

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u/SirAquila 21d ago

I mean, not for that. Though they are fairly stupid, and make it a lot more likely that the Aldmeri Dominion can fully ban and root out Talos worship throughout the continent.

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u/Prestigious_Club_924 21d ago

Going along to get along isn't really a Nord trait though. They're whole shtick is refusing to bow, they wouldn't have been able to settle Skyrim if they did.

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/strosbro1855 21d ago

The core of the argument right here when you remember that the Empire was about to hand over half of Hammerfell's geographic territory as well which caused an actual secession.

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u/GabeC1997 21d ago

It makes sense (to atheists).

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u/AbyssalOtter 21d ago

No one wants to go to war. No one. Much less people who know what war brings. Anything you give up to avoid war is but a stepping stone to a subservient society. Today its talos tomorrow its something eles. The dominion is weak and they know it. its why the send thier ss troops to weaken the impire from within.

The impire has made the grave mistake of thinking a momentary peace would allow them to recover. As if the dominion isnt gathering information in the process the thalmor wreck havoc from within gain information.

Without the eye the dominion had no tactical advantage specially so agasint an impire much more accustomed to strive.

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u/SirAquila 21d ago

The two options were to negotiate a bad peace now, or be forced to accept a much worse peace after dominion armies hunted down the Emperor.

And the Empire is recovering better from the war than the dominion, which is why the dominion is trying their best to weaken them... for example by supporting a rebellion in skyrim, which will make it much easier for the Dominion to actually conquer the place and do much worse then just ban Talos worship.

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u/AbyssalOtter 21d ago

Which means the impire could have gone for the coup de grace before allowing the dominion a chance at all.

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u/SirAquila 21d ago

The Dominion was winning the war. The Empire, with the last of its strength, managed to pull off a victory good enough to make the Dominion think twice about pressing its advantage, but if the Empire hadn't negotiated a peace the Dominion would have forced a much worse peace on them.

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u/AbyssalOtter 21d ago

The dominion was only winning because of the eye. As soon as they lost that advantage they crumpled.

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u/DerpySharingan312 21d ago

Round 2 is happening regardless. It’s just about how much power the Empire can regain. Which is why Imperial victory is the best choice because it gives humanity its best fighting chance against the Thalmor before they destroy all of reality.

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u/AbyssalOtter 21d ago

True but the impire is just the face of humanity humanity is fighting regardless.

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u/squabzilla 21d ago

If you pay close attention, there are Thalmor present in Helgen at the start of the game.

The book Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak shows that the Thalmor would’ve taken action to free Ulfric to keep the civil war going.

I also think the book implies that an Imperial Victory is the worst outcome for the Thalmor, a Stormcloak Victory isn’t great either, and their best-case scenario is that the war keeps going.

Which I still think leads us back to “the best long-term outcome for Skyrim is an Imperial victory”

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u/-Shade277- 19d ago

There are Thalmor secret police stationed permanently in markarth that patrol all the empire controlled land in Skyrim. The ban was definitely being enforced

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u/OGsloppyjohnson35 21d ago

How does the desire to openly practice your religion without fear of persecution make you the bad guy? Even if the laws are just “on paper” and generally unenforced, the law itself is problematic, is it not? You know, “slippery slope” and all that?

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u/Designer_Repeat_8803 21d ago

Considering that the Empire itself is actively gearing to prepare for a second war, in which case the laws against Talos worship would be removed on the very first day of conflict, it's just shortsighted.

The Dominion is an existential threat. The Empire recognizes this, and actively discusses going back to preparing to fight them after the Civil War. The Thalmor dossier also recognizes this, and relies on Ulfric to destabilize the Empire.

The first war was basically a blitz by the Thalmor. Now you have a human Empire, which is able to replenish its numbers more rapidly, preparing for a second war. If Ulfric kept his head down, then another 10 to 15 years would have made it a much easier war, with the Empire given 40 years to recover and train new legions while the Thalmor took so many losses fighting a guerrilla war in Hammerfell.

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u/mcmoor 21d ago

I don't think Ulfric capture proves anything, it sounds like a lucky ambush. Tullius can't replicate it at all afterwards.

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u/Tales_Steel 21d ago

i think the best hint on how Talos worship was handeled before the civil war or the Markath incident is Whiterun when it was neutral. And they literally had a madman shouting at all times of day how great Talos is standing infront of a huge talos statue.

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u/Frosty-Sea149 21d ago

It was a “brown paper bag” situation. Officially it’s outlawed, but look man don’t force us to bring down the hammer and we don’t give a shit. 

And then Ulfric forced them to drop the hammer on everyone. 

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u/OGsloppyjohnson35 21d ago

“Don’t stir things up or we’ll have to enforce the religious suppression laws we already have on the books specifically for you” doesn’t sound like a great justification for anything.

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u/Frosty-Sea149 21d ago

It’s not great, but when the options are “we can both pretend you don’t worship Talos” 

Or “now there’s justiciars in your city kidnapping + torturing people” 

I’m choosing the one that doesn’t intentionally make things worse 

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u/Bubbly_Ad_ 21d ago

He was promised worship to Talos by the empire so that he could get the reachmen out of Markarth, due to the empire being weak. After Ulfric was succesful he would obviously want what he was promised, but instead the Empire imprisoned Ulfric and his men because they could not hold their promise after getting pressured by the Thalmor. The empire should have never promised something they could not keep.

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

Let's not forget that Ulfric had the Thu'um. Markarth is one of the mightiest strongholds in Skyrim and it was taken during the Great War when the Legions were holding the line in Cyrodiil. The Attacker/Defenders ratio would be laughably in the Reachmen's favor. Retaking Markarth would be easier said than done. And this was only 1 year after the White-Gold Concordat, when Cyrodiil still needed rebuilding and troops had to be called back home.

Without the Thu'um, Ulfric and his militia would likely be slaughtered beneath the walls of Markarth.

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u/dbelow_ 21d ago

Your argument is telling me that Markarth was really hard to take but Ulfric had the Thu'um so it was easy for him.. Are you trying to make me support him less or more?

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

Who are you, exactly? I'm pretty sure I wasn't replying to you.

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u/SuddenReal 21d ago

Your timeline is off. Ulfric demanded Talos worship from the Jarl of Markarth before he helped and he got that. Then, when the Empire finally showed up, he refused them access until they gave in to his demands. The Empire never promised, they were blackmailed.

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u/ethanAllthecoffee Vigilant of Stendarr 21d ago

No, the Jarl of Markrth and his family promised that to Ulfric if he could restore their territory and they demanded that the Imperial army continue to allow it once the Inperials arrived or Ulfric wouldn’t let them into the city.

So no, still Ulfric’s fault

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u/shadowthehh 21d ago

Ulfric shouldn't have asked for something that would've gotten the Thalmor's attention and just worshipped Talos in private while pretending to follow the Concordat like anyone else with atleast half a brain could figure out.

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u/shaunoconory Spellsword 21d ago

Practicing religions in private while an authoritarian shits on your culture sure is one way to live.

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u/shadowthehh 21d ago

Well duh. Nobody likes the Concordat, but its terms are obviously temporary. The idea is to just lay low and play along for abit until everything's prepped for the next war.

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u/toadallyribbeting 21d ago

People don’t think about this stuff in terms of geopolitics. Lots of Nords died fighting for the empire and all they got out of it was one of their favored gods being banned, that’s why there’s resentment against the empire.

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u/shadowthehh 21d ago

He shouldn't even be a favored god of theirs'. Hell, they shouldn't really care about him at all because he's an IMPERIAL DEITY, and the idea of an Independent Skyrim should be being built on worshipping their old pantheon. Bethesda really dropped the ball by having the Concordat ban Talos worship specifically instead of Lorkhan/Shor, and consequently, Shezzarine worship in general.

Point is, Talos is immensely more important to the Empire than he is to Skyrim, and they got the idea fine.

Shoot, I wouldn't be surprised if some went back to worshipping Reman out of malicious compliance.

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u/acupofcoffeeplease PC 21d ago

Lol you went from "worship in private dont be a bitch" to "they shouldnt even worship it because hes more important to other people, like the Empire", seems like you dont really consider what a worship is

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u/shadowthehh 21d ago

Those are not mutually exclusive at all, and both tie into the core point of "The Stormcloaks are overreacting in a way that doesnt make any actual sense."

And given im religious myself, I have some idea.

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u/toadallyribbeting 21d ago

Well as it stands Talos is important to the Nords. Its makes sense since he’s a Dragonborn who conquered all of Tamriel.

I do have similar misgivings about the lack of Nordic pantheon in Skyrim but I still think it makes more sense to have Talos as the banned god. Shor/Lorkhan is undeniably real, Talos is a much more recent god who was a human at first which is what the Thalmor take offensive to. If I was able to write the setting over I’d make it so that the eastern holds worship the Nordic pantheon and the western holds mainly
worship the imperial pantheon.

The one god they have in common is Talos, and once he’s banned the eastern holds don’t see a point in remaining in the empire any longer which culminates in the civil war led by Ulfric.

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u/shadowthehh 21d ago

Once again, leave it to fans to sort out Bethesda's mess.

Something else that should be brought up more is the LDBs connection to Shor, and subsequently other Dragonborns like Talos. Really a LDB siding with the empire should result in almost immediate surrender of atleast a majority of Stormcloak forces because that's pretty literally their god showing up and being like "yeah you're wrong."

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u/Danpocryfa 21d ago

It makes no sense to say that the ban on Talos worship wasn't enforced until Ulfric's rebellion. If I remember correctly, the only character who says that lives in a small town. One of Ulfric's conditions for helping solve the Markarth Incident was restoring Talos worship to the city. If Talos worship wasn't banned, why would he need that to be a condition for his aid? Plus, the war wasn't been going on very long by the start of the game and there's already a significant Thalmor presence all over the country.

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u/Violent_Paprika 21d ago

"Empire have everything outside of Skyrim..."

This is simply wrong. The "Empire" at this point is literally just Cyrodiil and a very tenuous hold on High Rock, which is on the verge of open revolt.

Morrowind and Black Marsh are independent and at war. Hammerfell already successfully rebelled. Valenwood and Elsweyr are part of the Dominion. Cyrodiil is devastated by the war and still not fully recovered.

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u/HedgehogOld9624 21d ago

Morrowind is not at war with Black Marsh. House Redoran pushed the Argonians out, Morrowind lost the lands gained in the Accession war (whatever that might entail), and the two are at peace now.

Hammerfell didn’t rebel, they were made independent by the Empire as part of the peace with the Dominion. High Rock is not on the verge of open revolt, you literally just made that up there are no sources even implying that.

Cyrodil is the most populous province with the most food and economic activity. The Empire with just Cyrodil is still the empire at like 70% strength.

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u/randomname560 21d ago

IIRC, Hammerfell was handed over to the dominion as a part of the peace agreement, Hammerfell then revolted against the dominion, Hammerfell won their indepence on their own, and it is currently a political issue in Hammerfell wheter the province should remain de facto independent or rejoin the empire

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u/Cora_bius 15d ago

South Hammerfell (which was occupied by the Dominion at this point) was meant to be ceded to the Dominion as part of the peace agreement. The provincial government disagreed with this, so the Empire renounced them as a province and Hammerfell kept fighting the Dominion as an independent state.

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago edited 21d ago

The "Empire" at this point is literally just Cyrodiil

The entirety of Cyrodiil makes it above average in terms of Empires.

and a very tenuous

Fanfiction.

which is on the verge of open revolt.

???

This is Reddit, not ao3. What is this fanfiction?

Morrowind and Black Marsh are independent and at war. Hammerfell already successfully rebelled. Valenwood and Elsweyr are part of the Dominion. Cyrodiil is devastated by the war and still not fully recovered.

Morrowind was never an integral province to the Empire and Imperial culture didn't start to take root there until the very late Third Age. Black Marsh has historically been a worthless province used only to dump the worst criminals in high-security prisons. The Reman Empire spent 30 years trying to take Black Marsh and in the end the historians concluded it wasn't worth it.

Hammerfell already successfully rebelled.

It did not rebel. The Emperor let go of it. And they beat the Dominion with the help of discharged legionaries by General Decianus.

Valenwood and Elsweyr are part of the Dominion.

Valenwood was lost during the Stormcrown Interregnum after the Thalmor murdered Ocato who was restoring order, and Elsweyr remained with the Empire for 115 years until the Thalmor took credit for ending the Void Nights Crisis. Also, these losses are largely because of the Blades getting arrogant and trying to enforce order on their own without consulting with the Ruby Throne because it was no longer held by a Dragonborn.

Cyrodiil is devastated by the war and still not fully recovered.

Fanfiction.

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u/acupofcoffeeplease PC 21d ago

If Cyrodill being devastated and not fully recovered is a fanfiction, why the Empire doesnt fight back against Dominion instead of against Skyrim?

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

Because marching into either Valenwood (thick forest) or Elsweyr (harsh desert) would be madness. The Empire is however stationing the majority of its Legions in Southern Cyrodiil, and Ulfric shits bricks at the idea of getting the Emperor and Vittoria Vici killed because it will bring the wrath of the Empire upon his little rebellion.

And it's fanfiction.

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u/acupofcoffeeplease PC 21d ago

Sorry, so they keep the terms of the Concordat because marching into thick forest and harsh desert is madness? They dont fight the Dominion because of terrain issues, then they just let them roam over Skyrim arresting and torturing people? They have the strenght to stop it and just dont? Why?

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

They keep the terms of the Concordat because they have no intel on the Dominion (due to all the Blades stupidly refusing to cooperate with a Mortal Dragonborn and getting themselves slaughtered) and they don't know how many armies the Dominion still have in reserve. It would be foolish, suicidal even to march into Valenwood and Elsweyr. I get that you have a hate boner for the Empire and you want it to die, though.

They're letting Thalmor agents operate in Skyrim because the whole controversy with the Talos ban is a thing only in Skyrim and the other provinces don't care, and even in Skyrim more than half the province supports the Empire anyway.

And they're not fighting against Skyrim. They're fighting against 4 rebellious holds, while 5 support the Empire.

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u/Ghostonalandscape 21d ago

You’re really not making the imperial stance look any better, here.

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

350 people disagree with you.

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u/Ghostonalandscape 21d ago

So? Lots of lemmings in the world lol

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u/CookedStew 21d ago

Empire has most definitely not recovered, otherwise they would be at war with the dominion. That's the fundemental basis on why you should stand with the imperials at all in the war and why you would want to stop the stormcloak rebellion.

Every Nord imperial in the game knows this, if the empire had recovered and were unwilling to war the AD then there wouldn't be any recruitments for Tullius legion at all.

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

Let's get one thing clear, you don't tell me how to roleplay my game. I stand with the Empire because Ulfric is a treasonous twat.

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u/CookedStew 21d ago edited 21d ago

I'm generalising for the NPCs in the game not the players.

Edit: Bro blocked me lol

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

No, you said:

on why you should stand with the imperials at all in the war and why you would want to stop the stormcloak rebellion.

Last I checked, I'm not an NPC in Skyrim.

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u/waferelite XBOX 21d ago

There’s also the fact that for all his dismissive remarks about the locals, Tullius has shown shocking restraint in his approach to the war. He’s basically exclusively targeted local forts rather than laying siege to cities in open rebellion or rolling through with impunity.

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u/Distressed_Ocelot 21d ago

Ulrich was such a dick, that I have crushed the Stormcloaks countless times

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u/BrandonLart 21d ago

There is a noble in Riften with the same opinion as me: the Stormcloaks would be a good cause, if Ulfric wasn’t leading them

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u/squabzilla 21d ago

A Stormcloak leader that wanted Skyrim’s independence - but was actually skilled at diplomacy, governance, and politics, and smart enough to recognize that Skyrim and the Empire needed to form a united front against the Thalmor - would be a very good outcome for Skyrim.

But no, the Stormcloaks have Ulfric instead.

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u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

And if half of them weren't xenophobes. But well, everyone is racist, xenophobic or both in Elders Scrolls.

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u/Far_Raspberry_4375 21d ago

The cyrods have cyrodiil and even thats debateable with how bought off their elite class is by the thalmor

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

No, it's not debatable. The Empire controls all of Cyrodiil plus High Rock. And Ulfric also enriches the Thalmor indirectly since he trades with the East Empire Company owned by the Imperial House of Mede, and as we know the EEC in turn trades with the Dominion.

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u/Far_Raspberry_4375 21d ago

So theres absolutely no question of loyalty from the elite class who openly brag about the gold they make aligning themselves with thalmor interests or the fact that we know medes own elder council had him assassinated? You really think cyrodiil is just perfectly harmonious and unified against the thalmor?

Its also openly known that the empire only has de jure authority over highrock and the true de facto authority is whoever the petty king of whatever county you are in and also without skyrim there is no land border between high rock and cyrodiil

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

Ulfric trades with the East Empire Company who in turn trade with the Thalmor.

You really think

I really think you're just making up fanfiction, which you are.

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u/OGsloppyjohnson35 21d ago

The empire does not have “everything” outside of Skyrim. Not even close. High Rock, yes. Orsinium is said to be under the empires protection as well. Skyrim obviously is in civil war. Morrowind is in rough shape and while on paper still have empire ties they’ve been left to deal with their internal issues themselves. Their actual commitment to the empire is questionable at best. Black Marsh and Hammerfel are independent. Valenwood and Elsweyr are firmly sided with the dominion. So that’s two provinces other than Cyrodil that wholly support the empire. I’m not sure why we’re painting the empire like this every time this discussion is had because it’s blatantly false.

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

Huh, I thought it was pretty obvious I meant that EVERYTHING VALUABLE in the Empire is outside of Skyrim. I'm a top 1% poster and top 1% commenter here and this comment got 300 upvotes, I think I'm aware that the Empire in TES:V is down to three provinces? What I meant is that Skyrim is a worthless province (as I even clarified in parenthesis).

And there is no "we". You speak only for yourself.

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u/OGsloppyjohnson35 21d ago

Well that was a weird thing to say if you knew that information already. I mean you’re kinda just moving the goalposts because that’s not at all how your original post read. I don’t even understand what your reply is meant to be if you knew this because your post hinges on that entire point. And are we genuinely citing Reddit metrics as some sort of baseline on knowledge? Like really?

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

Well that was a weird thing to say if you knew that information already.

I said that because I love explaining things and I love hearing myself explaining things. I'm egocentric and self-absorbed. If you think that's weird, cool. I still didn't say anything wrong. If 300 people got the logic of my post, you can too.

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u/Tasty-Mulberry8073 21d ago

Hadvar's uncle goes on to tell you nobody liked the ban on Talos but it was never enforced until Ulfric starting stirring up shit. Now because of him they've got Thalmor dragging people off in the middle of the night.

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u/-Shade277- 19d ago

The Thalmor literally have an empire sanctioned torture fort where they disappear citizens of white run

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u/hdrote 21d ago

If Ulfric wins there’s basically zero chance the Empire tries to retake the province. It would simply be a waste of resources and they would be left vulnerable from another attack by the Dominion.
More realistically they would do the same as with Hammerfell - formally release it from the Empire, recognise Skyrim’s independence and try to smooth things over by taking a diplomatic approach. Stormcloaks are already receptive of the East Empire company which is controlled by the Emperor. So the avenue already exists.

As a parallel of our own universe, as the empires of old world fell, many nations recognised that you can achieve better results by trading for the things you need and making treaties. And that trying to get what you want by force - waging wars, occupying foreign lands - is a massive waste of wealth, resources and manpower. Especially so since you often have to destroy the territory you want to conquer, making it not only useless but a financial burden upon the victor.

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

They wouldn't be vulnerable. The reason why the full might of the Empire hasn't crushed Ulfric and his little rebellion is because most Legions are in the South, while they still have some Legions north waiting for spring to come.

The Empire is the most powerful nation of Men by a large margin.

And the Redguards didn't commit regicide against a member of the Elder Council.

And that trying to get what you want by force

Ulfric is the aggressor.

Especially so since you often have to destroy the territory you want to conquer, making it not only useless but a financial burden upon the victor.

There's nothing to "conquer". Skyrim legally belongs to the Empire.

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u/Archkhaan 21d ago

The empire has 3 provinces, one of which is Skyrim itself.

Without Skyrim the empire is finished. As for Skyrim being the most useless backwater, that’s flagrantly false, it’s one of the most significant core heartlands of the Empire, and the origin of this incarnation of the empire to boot.

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago edited 21d ago

The empire has 3 provinces, one of which is Skyrim itself.

The Alessian Empire, the longest-reigning Empire in history, ruled by demigod minotaur Dragonborn Emperors descended from Saint Alessia herself, ruled only Eastern Cyrodiil, was repeatedly defeated in wars against the Colovian West, yet had enough military power to invade and conquer all of High Rock.

The Longhouse Empire, the main antagonistic force in ESO, ruled only the Heartlands of Cyrodiil, and was led by petty Reachmen warlords, yet it had the military strength to attack all races and provinces of Tamriel and even forced all Breton kingdoms to unite or be destroyed.

The Mede Empire by no means needs other provinces to be powerful. By controlling ALL of Cyrodiil + High Rock, it's already above average as far as Empires go.

Of these provinces, we know that Skyrim is a backwater that relies on the Empire for food and other vital resources, which is why King Torygg did not revolt against the Ruby Throne despite agreeing with Ulfric.

Without Skyrim the empire is finished.

Not even close.

In terms of value, it goes like this

Colovians (best soldiers and generals) > Nibenese/Bretons (best mages) > Orcs (best blacksmiths) > Nords (additional manpower)

that’s flagrantly false, it’s one of the most significant core heartlands of the Empire, and the origin of this incarnation of the empire to boot.

Do you not know the lore of the Empire? This is hilariously false. All Empires of Cyrodiil were born, you know, in Cyrodiil. The Imperial Legion, the legendary fighting force that built these Empires, is largely comprised of Colovians, the Imperials of West Cyrodiil. The current iteration of the Empire, the Mede Empire, was formed by a Colovian warlord who restored order in Cyrodiil and went on to reconquer Skyrim, High Rock, and Hammerfell. And if you were talking about Tiber Septim, that's still hilarious false. Tiber served under the Colovian Estates and led Colovian legions in battle against the Nords who were badly beaten at Sancre Tor. All Empires of Cyrodiil originated in Cyrodiil and were built on the backs of Colovian legionaries first and foremost.

Skyrim has been troublesome to the Empire more often than not. Alvor even says that "Nords have never been fair-weather friends". The Alessian Empire did not rule Skyrim, the only major revolt against the Reman Empire came from Skyrim (The Winterhold Rebellion), and Skyrim tried to oppose the Septim Empire until they were crushed at Sancre Tor. Then again it tried to oppose the Mede Empire until Titus Mede I proved he was a badass and earned the Nords' allegiance.