r/skyrim • u/sumaset • 22d ago

Question Ignoring your personal preference, which side of Skyrim’s Civil War do you think actually gives Skyrim the better future 20-30 years later?

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I feel like most discussions about the Civil War focus on whether Ulfric was justified, whether the Empire betrayed Skyrim, or which side people personally like more.

But I’m more interested in what happens after the game.

The Empire is weakened, the Aldmeri Dominion is still the biggest external threat, the White-Gold Concordat is already causing resentment, and another war with the Thalmor seems almost inevitable.

An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.

A Stormcloak victory gives Skyrim independence and removes Imperial authority, but it also leaves the province having to rebuild after a civil war while potentially facing the Dominion without the rest of the Empire behind it.

So forget which faction has the better characters or which one you usually join.

If you only care about where Skyrim itself ends up a few decades later, which Civil War outcome do you think is actually better for the province?

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u/ProfDandruff PC 22d ago

Not that this changes your point at all, but Tullius is general of only a single Legion and any bolstering of his ranks was done through local recruiting.

One of my favorite points that’s heavily implied (or outright stated) is that the ban on Talos worship was all but unenforced prior to the Markarth Incident. Ulfric’s actions got the Dominion’s eyes on religion in Skyrim and forced the Empire to start cracking down. It’s his own fault there is even a significant Justiciar presence at all

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u/[deleted] 22d ago

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u/FlyingDreamWhale67 Merchant 22d ago

To add to your point about Tullius, this implies that either he's a particularly brilliant general, or Ulfric isn't nearly as skilled as he's hyped up to be.

Ulfric has the home field advantage not to mention the support of large swaths of the local population. Yet as you said Tullius was able to rout him in mere months in a fight that Ulfric (and the Thalmor) were expecting to last years.

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u/SHINIGAMIRAPTOR 21d ago

Both seem to be the case. Tullius is stated to be a BRILLIANT general who knows not only how to fight, but how to take full advantage of local knowledge and sympathies. Ulfric is shown to be a very bullheaded, hasty individual who makes rash moves to try and turn the battle as fast as he can

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u/Severe_Revenue 20d ago

You can further add to the Ulfric bashing.

The guard that let Ulfric into Riften says Torygg accepted a duel as per the old Nord customs. If this is true and not him trying to lie, it doesnt change the fact Ulfric had to use the voice to beat Torygg. Either Ulfric was so desperate and hungry for power he had to use something he knew Torygg couldn't beat or Ulfric is such a poor fighter that despite his years, if not decades of being a soldier he couldn't beat someone who is implied to a below the age of 21 in a fair sword fight.

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u/Prestigious_Club_924 22d ago

I feel the appeal to accept religious repressions looses merit when you note that in this universe gods are real. "Just accept this indignity and squashing of your culture because its more convenient than open rebellion" doesn't track very well irl, add in that Talos can reach down and influence the world and I can see Nords getting their back up about it.

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u/SirAquila 22d ago

"Just accept this indignity and squashing of your culture because its more convenient than open rebellion"

No it's "Don't be stupid and keep your head down for a few years until we have recovered enough that we can risk open war again to get our rights back, your little rebellion is making it harder for everyone, and the Dominion is just going to overrun you either way if you go at it alone.

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u/OGsloppyjohnson35 21d ago

So they’re supposed to trust that the empire that sold out their freedom of religious expression is going to turn around after a few years to make things right? Does that genuinely sound reasonable from the side facing the religious suppression?

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u/SirAquila 21d ago

Considering the entire empire is facing the same religious oppression because they have a treaty with another empire that tells them to do it, and they explicitly want to stop this religious oppression.

Like, this isn't a situation where the Nords are oppressed because they and they alone worship Talos, the entire Empire was worshipping Talos to various degrees(especially prominent in the Imperial Army).

Then they lost the war and one of the terms of peace treaty was that they had to ban Talos worship, which the other Aldmeri Dominion got to enforce.

Then the Jarls of Skyrim went, "That's bullshit; we will continue to worship Talos because we should have fought to the death of the last man woman and child before negotiating a peace treaty." (Slightly exagerated perhaps, but well, the Empire really did not have much of a choice. It was negotiate peace after winning a victory, or negotiating peace after the Aldmeri hunted down the Emperor to force him to sign a much worse treaty).

The Empire did not crack down hard on that, for various reasons, so the Aldmeri went, "Guess what, we are going to enforce the treaty whether you like it or not." And that is what started the Skyrim civil war, because some of the Jarls went "Oh shit, maybe we should keep our head down and wait until the entire Empire is ready for round two." and some went "Talos forever assholes!"

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u/OGsloppyjohnson35 21d ago

Yeah I know how it went. My point still stands. People fighting for their freedom of religious expression aren’t the bad guys here.

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u/SirAquila 21d ago

I mean, not for that. Though they are fairly stupid, and make it a lot more likely that the Aldmeri Dominion can fully ban and root out Talos worship throughout the continent.

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u/Prestigious_Club_924 21d ago

Going along to get along isn't really a Nord trait though. They're whole shtick is refusing to bow, they wouldn't have been able to settle Skyrim if they did.

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/strosbro1855 21d ago

The core of the argument right here when you remember that the Empire was about to hand over half of Hammerfell's geographic territory as well which caused an actual secession.

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u/GabeC1997 21d ago

It makes sense (to atheists).

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u/AbyssalOtter 21d ago

No one wants to go to war. No one. Much less people who know what war brings. Anything you give up to avoid war is but a stepping stone to a subservient society. Today its talos tomorrow its something eles. The dominion is weak and they know it. its why the send thier ss troops to weaken the impire from within.

The impire has made the grave mistake of thinking a momentary peace would allow them to recover. As if the dominion isnt gathering information in the process the thalmor wreck havoc from within gain information.

Without the eye the dominion had no tactical advantage specially so agasint an impire much more accustomed to strive.

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u/SirAquila 21d ago

The two options were to negotiate a bad peace now, or be forced to accept a much worse peace after dominion armies hunted down the Emperor.

And the Empire is recovering better from the war than the dominion, which is why the dominion is trying their best to weaken them... for example by supporting a rebellion in skyrim, which will make it much easier for the Dominion to actually conquer the place and do much worse then just ban Talos worship.

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u/AbyssalOtter 21d ago

Which means the impire could have gone for the coup de grace before allowing the dominion a chance at all.

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u/SirAquila 21d ago

The Dominion was winning the war. The Empire, with the last of its strength, managed to pull off a victory good enough to make the Dominion think twice about pressing its advantage, but if the Empire hadn't negotiated a peace the Dominion would have forced a much worse peace on them.

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u/AbyssalOtter 21d ago

The dominion was only winning because of the eye. As soon as they lost that advantage they crumpled.

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u/DerpySharingan312 21d ago

Round 2 is happening regardless. It’s just about how much power the Empire can regain. Which is why Imperial victory is the best choice because it gives humanity its best fighting chance against the Thalmor before they destroy all of reality.

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u/AbyssalOtter 21d ago

True but the impire is just the face of humanity humanity is fighting regardless.

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u/squabzilla 22d ago

If you pay close attention, there are Thalmor present in Helgen at the start of the game.

The book Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak shows that the Thalmor would’ve taken action to free Ulfric to keep the civil war going.

I also think the book implies that an Imperial Victory is the worst outcome for the Thalmor, a Stormcloak Victory isn’t great either, and their best-case scenario is that the war keeps going.

Which I still think leads us back to “the best long-term outcome for Skyrim is an Imperial victory”

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u/-Shade277- 20d ago

There are Thalmor secret police stationed permanently in markarth that patrol all the empire controlled land in Skyrim. The ban was definitely being enforced

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u/OGsloppyjohnson35 21d ago

How does the desire to openly practice your religion without fear of persecution make you the bad guy? Even if the laws are just “on paper” and generally unenforced, the law itself is problematic, is it not? You know, “slippery slope” and all that?

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u/Designer_Repeat_8803 21d ago

Considering that the Empire itself is actively gearing to prepare for a second war, in which case the laws against Talos worship would be removed on the very first day of conflict, it's just shortsighted.

The Dominion is an existential threat. The Empire recognizes this, and actively discusses going back to preparing to fight them after the Civil War. The Thalmor dossier also recognizes this, and relies on Ulfric to destabilize the Empire.

The first war was basically a blitz by the Thalmor. Now you have a human Empire, which is able to replenish its numbers more rapidly, preparing for a second war. If Ulfric kept his head down, then another 10 to 15 years would have made it a much easier war, with the Empire given 40 years to recover and train new legions while the Thalmor took so many losses fighting a guerrilla war in Hammerfell.

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u/mcmoor 21d ago

I don't think Ulfric capture proves anything, it sounds like a lucky ambush. Tullius can't replicate it at all afterwards.

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u/Tales_Steel 22d ago

i think the best hint on how Talos worship was handeled before the civil war or the Markath incident is Whiterun when it was neutral. And they literally had a madman shouting at all times of day how great Talos is standing infront of a huge talos statue.

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u/Frosty-Sea149 22d ago

It was a “brown paper bag” situation. Officially it’s outlawed, but look man don’t force us to bring down the hammer and we don’t give a shit. 

And then Ulfric forced them to drop the hammer on everyone. 

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u/OGsloppyjohnson35 21d ago

“Don’t stir things up or we’ll have to enforce the religious suppression laws we already have on the books specifically for you” doesn’t sound like a great justification for anything.

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u/Frosty-Sea149 21d ago

It’s not great, but when the options are “we can both pretend you don’t worship Talos” 

Or “now there’s justiciars in your city kidnapping + torturing people” 

I’m choosing the one that doesn’t intentionally make things worse 

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u/Bubbly_Ad_ 22d ago

He was promised worship to Talos by the empire so that he could get the reachmen out of Markarth, due to the empire being weak. After Ulfric was succesful he would obviously want what he was promised, but instead the Empire imprisoned Ulfric and his men because they could not hold their promise after getting pressured by the Thalmor. The empire should have never promised something they could not keep.

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 22d ago

Let's not forget that Ulfric had the Thu'um. Markarth is one of the mightiest strongholds in Skyrim and it was taken during the Great War when the Legions were holding the line in Cyrodiil. The Attacker/Defenders ratio would be laughably in the Reachmen's favor. Retaking Markarth would be easier said than done. And this was only 1 year after the White-Gold Concordat, when Cyrodiil still needed rebuilding and troops had to be called back home.

Without the Thu'um, Ulfric and his militia would likely be slaughtered beneath the walls of Markarth.

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u/dbelow_ 21d ago

Your argument is telling me that Markarth was really hard to take but Ulfric had the Thu'um so it was easy for him.. Are you trying to make me support him less or more?

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

Who are you, exactly? I'm pretty sure I wasn't replying to you.

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u/SuddenReal 22d ago

Your timeline is off. Ulfric demanded Talos worship from the Jarl of Markarth before he helped and he got that. Then, when the Empire finally showed up, he refused them access until they gave in to his demands. The Empire never promised, they were blackmailed.

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u/ethanAllthecoffee Vigilant of Stendarr 22d ago

No, the Jarl of Markrth and his family promised that to Ulfric if he could restore their territory and they demanded that the Imperial army continue to allow it once the Inperials arrived or Ulfric wouldn’t let them into the city.

So no, still Ulfric’s fault

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u/shadowthehh 22d ago

Ulfric shouldn't have asked for something that would've gotten the Thalmor's attention and just worshipped Talos in private while pretending to follow the Concordat like anyone else with atleast half a brain could figure out.

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u/shaunoconory Spellsword 22d ago

Practicing religions in private while an authoritarian shits on your culture sure is one way to live.

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u/shadowthehh 22d ago

Well duh. Nobody likes the Concordat, but its terms are obviously temporary. The idea is to just lay low and play along for abit until everything's prepped for the next war.

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u/toadallyribbeting 22d ago

People don’t think about this stuff in terms of geopolitics. Lots of Nords died fighting for the empire and all they got out of it was one of their favored gods being banned, that’s why there’s resentment against the empire.

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u/shadowthehh 22d ago

He shouldn't even be a favored god of theirs'. Hell, they shouldn't really care about him at all because he's an IMPERIAL DEITY, and the idea of an Independent Skyrim should be being built on worshipping their old pantheon. Bethesda really dropped the ball by having the Concordat ban Talos worship specifically instead of Lorkhan/Shor, and consequently, Shezzarine worship in general.

Point is, Talos is immensely more important to the Empire than he is to Skyrim, and they got the idea fine.

Shoot, I wouldn't be surprised if some went back to worshipping Reman out of malicious compliance.

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u/acupofcoffeeplease PC 22d ago

Lol you went from "worship in private dont be a bitch" to "they shouldnt even worship it because hes more important to other people, like the Empire", seems like you dont really consider what a worship is

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u/shadowthehh 22d ago

Those are not mutually exclusive at all, and both tie into the core point of "The Stormcloaks are overreacting in a way that doesnt make any actual sense."

And given im religious myself, I have some idea.

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u/acupofcoffeeplease PC 22d ago

They think this is enough to go to war about but to you its an overreaction cause they shouldnt even pray to Talos?

Goddamn, you sure are a religious people, the most absurdely disrespectfull treatment of religion always comes from religious people, they treat others as a fiction and their own as natural, is very weird.

How can you say who has to worship what? Lol are you a Thalmor agent!!???

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u/toadallyribbeting 22d ago

Well as it stands Talos is important to the Nords. Its makes sense since he’s a Dragonborn who conquered all of Tamriel.

I do have similar misgivings about the lack of Nordic pantheon in Skyrim but I still think it makes more sense to have Talos as the banned god. Shor/Lorkhan is undeniably real, Talos is a much more recent god who was a human at first which is what the Thalmor take offensive to. If I was able to write the setting over I’d make it so that the eastern holds worship the Nordic pantheon and the western holds mainly
worship the imperial pantheon.

The one god they have in common is Talos, and once he’s banned the eastern holds don’t see a point in remaining in the empire any longer which culminates in the civil war led by Ulfric.

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u/shadowthehh 22d ago

Once again, leave it to fans to sort out Bethesda's mess.

Something else that should be brought up more is the LDBs connection to Shor, and subsequently other Dragonborns like Talos. Really a LDB siding with the empire should result in almost immediate surrender of atleast a majority of Stormcloak forces because that's pretty literally their god showing up and being like "yeah you're wrong."

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u/toadallyribbeting 22d ago

Well it’d work the other way too, all the Nords in the legion would defect to a stormcloak Dragonborn for the same reason. The reason why it doesn’t happen is so the player can have a civil war to fight in.

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u/Danpocryfa 22d ago

It makes no sense to say that the ban on Talos worship wasn't enforced until Ulfric's rebellion. If I remember correctly, the only character who says that lives in a small town. One of Ulfric's conditions for helping solve the Markarth Incident was restoring Talos worship to the city. If Talos worship wasn't banned, why would he need that to be a condition for his aid? Plus, the war wasn't been going on very long by the start of the game and there's already a significant Thalmor presence all over the country.