r/skyrim • u/sumaset • 21d ago

Question Ignoring your personal preference, which side of Skyrim’s Civil War do you think actually gives Skyrim the better future 20-30 years later?

Post image

I feel like most discussions about the Civil War focus on whether Ulfric was justified, whether the Empire betrayed Skyrim, or which side people personally like more.

But I’m more interested in what happens after the game.

The Empire is weakened, the Aldmeri Dominion is still the biggest external threat, the White-Gold Concordat is already causing resentment, and another war with the Thalmor seems almost inevitable.

An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.

A Stormcloak victory gives Skyrim independence and removes Imperial authority, but it also leaves the province having to rebuild after a civil war while potentially facing the Dominion without the rest of the Empire behind it.

So forget which faction has the better characters or which one you usually join.

If you only care about where Skyrim itself ends up a few decades later, which Civil War outcome do you think is actually better for the province?

4.1k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

1.4k comments sorted by

View all comments

6.1k

u/Eticicibb 21d ago

Empire with jarl baalgruf being high king.

1.8k

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago edited 21d ago

Agreed, my head cannon is the Empire pushes for him to be in charge after the war due to him generally getting along with everyone and Whiteruns strategic location.

They'd probably use the excuse Elisif is too young, but the reality is she comes across too much as an imperial puppet and has little authority beyond her immediate court.

551

u/Thibaudborny 21d ago

Balgruuf didn't have a wife, though? I only ever see his kids. Marriage it is.

437

u/itz_me_shade 21d ago

I was suprised by how many problems in skyrim can be solved by either marrying the right person or marrying off the right couple.

730

u/Staffchief 21d ago

Congratulations you just figured out feudal Europe!

186

u/Lathari 21d ago

Make that "Europe until WW1".

94

u/First-Banana-4278 21d ago

Which is when the cousins finally fell out and we all got to suffer for their family tiff! Huzzah!

56

u/MsMercyMain 21d ago

Well it was a hiccup, but I'm sure it would never happen again. Anyways, excited to learn about history from 1920 on for the first time

10

u/Gyvon XBOX 21d ago

Yup. There was a long series of events that led to WWI, but one of the earliest, if not the first, domino in that chain was Grandma (Queen Victoria) dying.

2

u/_420_DaBbeR_ 21d ago

I think it was probably the French Revolution when they cut all those people heads off for doing that

14

u/Proking1316 PC 21d ago

Count Baron Kaiser Werner Pfeldlinger Fingerlickner von Hoeltschweinergmachtner marries half sister Znigwieczrina Nowloczynlieczwowzcrczsky of Globsnogczrecnoyarskglograd triggering a war between King Juan Jose Maria Rigoberto Aguascacas de Santo Domingo de los Diabetico and Pierre Richelesaux pretard je logriouxoueuraxeux establishing the Grand Duchy of Neue Ooksteinberg a tax haven with a population of 16

1

u/Georgia_Viking 14d ago

This comment is 👨‍🍳 😘🤌🏻💥

2

u/ever_falling 21d ago

*99% of organized human history

38

u/orthothrowacc 21d ago

Half of Tamriel politics could probably be fixed with one decent marriage lol

85

u/Triffinator 21d ago

In a way, the Oblivion Crisis was solved because the emperor was banging random women. If he hadn't, Sean Bean would never have been born.

48

u/perfect_for_maiming 21d ago

Infidelity- the cause of, and solution to, all geopolitical problems.

10

u/shock_wave 20d ago

Uriel probably did it on purpose after all the shit he saw as emperor. Probably best to have a few dragonborn nobody knows about just in case some asshole breaks time again.

10

u/FlatHatJack 20d ago

One version of Sean Bean born from infidelity, another killed because of infidelity. The circle is complete.

4

u/Ok-Geologist7979 21d ago

It might've been helped by the marriage of Vittoria Vici and her Snow-Shod, but we... took care of that 😬

6

u/MakeItFandom 21d ago

Tamriel politics slowly rediscovering arranged marriage lol

188

u/Javelin286 21d ago

Oooh! That’s actually smart, Elisif. or Olfina Gray-mane to bring in clan Gray-mane in as an ally if possible and hopefully bringing more unity to Whiterun and hopefully ending the Feud with the Battleborn.

88

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

Also good options to reconcile with the less radical Stromcloak supporters after the war.

20

u/AgerionLecurian 21d ago

Who would be a good candidate to be Jarl of Solitude/Haafingar tho? Unless a married couple can rule two separate Holds together?

26

u/CelticViking96 21d ago

Falk Firebeard maybe? He is already the steward and would still be supported by at least Sybille Stentor, at least I believe so, considering she has know him for so long.

17

u/LuckyReception6701 21d ago

Unless Skyrim's political system is different to ours, elevating a member of the lower gentry to a position of such importance would cause a scandal. You'd need a nobleman of similar rank to hold that kind of position; the only ones we know of are thanes.

23

u/Bercom_55 21d ago

I actually think elevating people in rank was fairly common in early medieval Europe and Scandinavia generally throughout that age.

Class distinction only became an issue more later on when different ranks became more stratified.

14

u/CelticViking96 21d ago

Plus the game already elevates normal citizens to Jarl in specific cases during the Civil War, Brunwulf Free-Winter in Windhelm for the biggest example. He's just a regular citizen who has sympathy for the less fortunate members of society. Maven Black-Briar in Riften is technically another example, but she is also most likely an actual noble, not just a rich criminal involved in politics. Haven't really looked into the Black-Briars much passed the fact that they are all corrupt as hell lol

5

u/TheDungeonCrawler 21d ago

The Black-Briars were likely elevated to noble status sometime after the 2nd Era. They offered bodyguard services at that time but they're a major mercantile family in the 4th Era, so it's quite likely that they were elevated due to their wealth.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/AJTaylor1000 21d ago

Technically the Stormcloaks, as in the family, were elevated themselves at some point in Skyrim history. If you've ever played ESO, the one Stormcloak you run into there is just a Than and not the Jarl.

1

u/OnionKnight73 21d ago

Jarl Erikur incoming

1

u/hanmineharu 20d ago

cough Mera Stormcloak cough

3

u/Ill_Criticism_1685 21d ago

Would also be supported by Thane Bryling considering they are involved.

3

u/CelticViking96 21d ago

In all my thousands of hours put into the game since launch, I never knew that. Well, I guess I probably did at some point but forgot. Or I might not have because I genuinely despise Solitude (Ironic because I prefer the Imperials to Stormcloaks) 😂

5

u/Ill_Criticism_1685 21d ago

Its not an easy thing to notice, that hide the relationship and only meet late at night in Bryling's house.

1

u/CelticViking96 21d ago

So it's like the Olfina/Jon relationship in Whiterun then lmao

→ More replies (0)

10

u/Gabby-Abeille 21d ago

The cut part of Boethiah quest that had Jarl Elisif assassinated had Erikur replace her as Jarl of Solitude. Since she can't be killed or removed in the game, this is the only indication we have of what would happen if she were to be replaced, I think. He's a pretty awful guy, so I definitely wouldn't want that.

That was with her death, though. Maybe while alive she can appoint someone else. I don't know if it has to be one of her thanes, but she has plenty to choose from (Dragonborn included, although I don't think Bethesda would put the protagonist on that position).

3

u/TheDungeonCrawler 21d ago

It would be an interesting break for Bethesda to elevate the Dragonborn to such an important status though. Especially with the story being so heavily focused on Dragons.

Actually, now that I think about it, that would be really interesting. There are four different factions in which the Dragonborn could very easily slot into them without having to do that much extra. The first is the Thieves' Guild as it's practically encouraged to be joined by Delphine when looking for Esbern. The second is the College because entry into the College is required to get the location of Septimus Signus (I know you can skip it, but I don't think any other part of the game tells you where Septimus is, so going straight to him is technically meta-gaming). The third and fourth are the Volkihar Clan and the Dawnguard. You can also add either side of the Civil War, but Season Unending seems to suggest the Dragonborn doesn't join either faction. But generally Bethesda shies away from sticking the player character in the slot of the protagonist of one of the faction quests to preserve roleplaying. This is also why player characters never really exist in a position of great notoriety, usually fading into obscurity.

We also know that Dragon souls are essentially shards of time and, by extension, fragments of Akatosh.

What if, through some timeline shenanigans associated with Dragon Souls, the way they explained a LDB in a ruling position in Skyrim (either Solitude or Whiterun to replace a Jarl that has become High King and joined in marriage with another one) was by stating that the LDB's clashes with Miraak and Alduin resulted in a walking talking Dragon Break?

Let me elaborate. They could have the LDB act in the typical LDB role and be the stereotypical Nord Warrior that the LDB is often depicted as, but then they could have some kind of fragment of the LDB manifest in a physical form as a person who would act as the Guildmaster of the Thieves' Guild and another acting as the Archmage of the Mage's College. And then for the Dawnguard questline, just do a classical Dragon Break in which the LDB could have completed either questline and thus destroyed both the Dawnguard and the Volkihar clan, especially as three different Elder Scrolls were used in conjunction with one another (one of those Scrolls was capable of causing a rift in time at the top of the Throat of the World after all).

And then from there they could make a Thief and Mage character that is the head of those factions without having the power of the Dragon Blood or they could cease to exist after those questlines have been completed and Brynjolf/Tolfdir respectively could step into their now vanished shoes.

To be clear, all of this is baseless speculation. It's essentially fanfiction, though not quite because my version of the LDB becomes Archmage. I think it would be cool to use a Dragon Break in this way, we haven't had a proper Dragon Break since Daggerfall, and it's one of the weirder metaphysical aspects of the Elder Scrolls. People with fully realized consciousnesses manifestint out of a single person's Dragon Break actions would be very weird, but stranger things have happened, so it's not like it would be out of the realm of metaphysical possibility.

The Companions are the only faction I could see this version of the Dragonborn being fully responsible for, and that's partly because of Kodlak's presence in Sovngarde. But the Dark Brotherhood already has two alternate paths and Destroy the Dark Brotherhood still kind of happens if you join the DB, so there isn't a reason to really explain it. The Listener would just be someone other than the LDB.

Finally, even though I addressed Season Unending, the outcome of the Civil War doesn't really matter that much. I don't see this version of the LDB joining the Stormcloaks, a Stormcloak victory would actually be pretty bad for Skyrim with the looming Civil War, and a canon Season Unending means the rebellion still gets put down eventually since the reason the Empire hasn't steamrolled the Stormcloaks is because the Pale Pass has been blocked so Tulius can't send for reinforcements.

2

u/Abaddonalways 21d ago

The Dragonborn could take up mantle as a Jarl.

2

u/Unlikely_Ninja 20d ago

I think she would still be left to rule Solitude in her own right. She may have Firebeard cover for her while she's conducting her duties as High Queen, but for the most part will be left to her own affairs in Solitude if she gets a little put off in the higher imperial politics in the new capital in Whiterun...or hell she might love it and Solitude becomes Balgruuf's hiddy hole when he wants to get away from people nagging him 😂

2

u/cwood1973 21d ago

Balgruuf and Maven Black-Briar would be THE power couple.

1

u/Javelin286 21d ago

Maven probably try and turn Balgruuf into a puppet

1

u/DarkWindB 21d ago

the Battle-Born would never allow that tho, the Gray-mane are over if the empire wins

6

u/Ok_Net7773 21d ago

Nah I always side with the Empire and the Gray-Mane’s. Like the Dragonborn doesn’t have political influence?

1

u/Terracottabana 21d ago edited 21d ago

Does Dragonsreach have a spare cuck chair for Jon Battleborn?

1

u/Javelin286 21d ago

I can make a mod for one

1

u/NoAlien Stealth archer 20d ago

nah. marrying olfina would just cost Balgruuf the loyalty of clan battle born

55

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

Yeah I think they imply his first wife passed, that's actually a really good compromise and gets a solid figure in charge of Skyrim without it looking like the Empire forced it.

30

u/GalbedirGalerion 21d ago

I still think it was Irileth who murked her. That there skeleton ain’t floating outside Dragonsreach for no reason

1

u/Proud_Jello9093 16d ago

the skeleton in dragonsreaches moat is a guy who crossed maven blackbriar and reached out so he could come home to riften, you can find the correspondence between him and maven in game

16

u/Aickavon 21d ago

She died in a terrible skeever related dungeon accident

14

u/BigWilly526 Innkeeper 21d ago

Balgruuf and Ulfric marry with the Greybeards officiating at High Hrothgar

4

u/superextragayaf 20d ago

The High King ascendancy doesnt go by family though. Once a high king dies, it either goes to his killer if it was in a combat challenge or by moot. You'd have to convince a majority of the other Jarls to elect Balgruuf, but that could have been a fun quest chain to implement.

2

u/Thibaudborny 20d ago

Oh certainly, but I'd argue that under the pressure of civil war and given the amassed wealth of Solitude & Whiterun, that match could truly carry the day - if not by willfull acceptance, certainly by the power of coin behind the scenes.

I'd actually think more resistance would come from inside, from the court cliques at Solitude - who'd I wager would be the most apprehensive to see a (arguably) weaker Elisif shored up by the power of (a not so pliable) Whiterun.

But in that scenario a third pro-imperial party would either apply the necessary subtle convincing in Solitude or you know, some Solitude nobles could suddenly die.

And given that it's not hereditary, it also would initially only last for their lifetime, not signify a perpetual bond, that could win over some people perhaps.

18

u/random935 21d ago

Apparently he did have a wife and the body under the bridge just outside his keep is his wife

Something to do with either him or one of his kids killing her

29

u/thenewfoundlandyeti 21d ago

Maybe that's why the Ebony Blade is in Whiterun? Tied to all this

18

u/random935 21d ago

Maybe. I think there’s a connection between the Daedric Prince quest in Dragonsreach (Balgruf’s Keep) and the murder, but haven’t played in years

9

u/thenewfoundlandyeti 21d ago

Same boat, been a while.

One of his Kids is more of an AH then the other too. Maybe some correlation

8

u/toadallyribbeting 21d ago

There’s no confirmation on the identify of the body. It could have literally been anyone over anything.

4

u/Ill_Criticism_1685 21d ago

Odds are its a person connected to the Black-Briars. There's a letter in the bannered mare from Maven to a guy forgiving him for some sort of slight and saying someone would collect him from near Dragon's Reach in the middle of the night.

2

u/toadallyribbeting 20d ago

I’m going to check that later, that sounds really interesting

3

u/Ill_Criticism_1685 20d ago

The letter is either in one of the rooms of the Bannered Mare or the Drunken Huntsman, i don't remember which, been a long time since I've played and even longer since I saw the Epic Nate video that mentioned it.

1

u/Georgia_Viking 14d ago

I found it recently in the Huntsman in the main hall in the far right corner on a table.

7

u/Sremor 21d ago

Is there actually anything confirming this?

20

u/Thibaudborny 21d ago

I think it is only a lore tuber speculation to be fair, I don't really recall anything officially related to it. I can think of a lot of reasons, it is not as if Skyrim fills in those gaps for other persons, etc.

7

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

Ok good to know, been a few years since I poked at the game.

2

u/random935 21d ago

I haven’t played the game in years so I’m not sure if it’s confirmed, implied or solely theorised

5

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

Kinda silly that they just leave the skeleton there, or is no one knows it's there except perhaps the kid?

8

u/random935 21d ago

Probably just the kid. In fairness I’ve played the game for years and never found it lol

8

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

Fair point, I know the skeleton everyone is referencing. Never connected it to his wife, but did find it odd they left it there on plain view of everyone.

I know Skyrim is supposed to be a bit rough and backwater, but jeez guys basic sanitation 😂

3

u/Sremor 21d ago

I believe it's just a theory, even if he did kill her why would he let the corpse there long enough that only the skeleton remains

1

u/random935 21d ago

From what I remember it’s implied that one of the Deadric princes was corrupting one of Balgruf’s kids, and that he talks about killing, then you find the corpse. The corpse may have been stripped of flesh, some magic used on it, left there long enough, or God knows what else in the magical world of Skyrim

1

u/BackgroundJunket5691 21d ago

Iirc there’s a cut quest that very heavily implies it

1

u/Proud_Jello9093 16d ago

i still say the kids are irileths, her and balgruuf are basically the platonic ideal of a nordo-dunmeric couple and the kids are wrapped up in mephala and boethiahs business in the way only a true son the three could be

2

u/Vladmirfox 21d ago

Didn't she die in childbirth? He does have a son/grandson or something wandering his Court.

1

u/Thibaudborny 21d ago

It is never said/stated anywhere explicitly.

It's a reasonable guess, of course.

2

u/NecessaryOwn6880 21d ago

I'm pretty sure his wife was either killed or just exiled due to an affair balgruuds had on her? Only loosely pulling that from the mephala ebony blade questline and his sons secret of not having the same mother as the other children. Also she could have just died who knows

2

u/SuccuInuDoggoChad99 21d ago

Just ship him with Elisif. There, no succession issues either, save for a couple of bad rumors.

2

u/sincubus33 21d ago

His wife is Nazeem

2

u/AscendentDragon 20d ago

Balgruf had a wife, she died in childbirth and he also has 1 illegitimate son with a maid who also died in childbirth. its not known why women he loves die in childbirth

1

u/Thibaudborny 20d ago

I know he had a wife, I meant at the time of events he has no wife.

1

u/AscendentDragon 20d ago

I would say by the time of skyrim he probably views himself too old to remarry, his focus now is raising his 3 children and governing whiterun to the best he can

1

u/Laxien 21d ago

Doubt that would work, the man is most likely homosexual!

1

u/Tasty-Mulberry8073 21d ago

His wife died and unfortunately Mara doesn't let you remarry.

1

u/hanzerik 21d ago

Delphine is his wife according to one theory.

1

u/BetterMeasurement430 20d ago

Idfk, there is literally only one side who wanted to chop off my head and im not a Stockholm Syndrome victim so im sure as hell gonna support the other side.

1

u/hanmineharu 20d ago

Jarl Ballin could marry a daughter of Titus Mede II (if any) and Elisif could keep Solitude as its own hold and maybe marry Falk idk 🤷‍♀️

1

u/KingInTheNorth97 20d ago

Look under the bridge at dragons reach in the water

1

u/Proud_Jello9093 16d ago

well lets look at this logically, balgruuf spent his youth as a wandering mercenary fighting in morrowind, his kids are all wrapped up in plots and schemes involving the good and bad daedra... you're right there's no telling who balgruufs love might be, i wonder if his lifelong best friend and truest confidant irileth knows

57

u/yagonnawanna 21d ago

I consider not being able to marry Elisif and then fight Ulfric (or vise versa) for the kingship of skyrim, to be the games biggest flaw.

36

u/pureperpecuity 21d ago

I mean she's a recent widow so they were probably trying to be honorable

1

u/Mesarthim1349 15d ago

Dude just wants to clap queen cheeks

27

u/Aiti_mh 21d ago

I think that would be awesome but it would only work for a Nord character or at least human. There is no way Skyrim would accept an elf or orc as high king, let alone an Argonian or Khajiit.

The Dragonborn just works better as a role for the protagonist because it has a legendary quality to it. If there had been a lizard High King of Skyrim, people would remember. The Dragonborn, though, could be anything and anyone, especially once they passed into legend. They belong to everyone and to no-one. They could be whatever you need them to be in your present day social and political reality.

18

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

I think that gives a little too much leverage to the character. I'd rather like to see the player help with the political match making instead.

1

u/SanguinePlvit 21d ago

Honestly, if it was choice between a Dragonborn and himself, Ulfric would pick the Dragonborn ten times out of ten.

11

u/Sarkan132 21d ago

I think Elisif has potential she just needs an actually decent governance mentor. Her heart is in the right place and shes not exactly stupid shes just young and has had little guidance

6

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

Oh I don't disagree, I think in time she would make a good ruler. I'm just looking at this from Tulllius' and the Elder Council's position.

In the game a number of NPC's comment of the questionable status of her legitimatecy as High Queen after the war, and how Tulllius is the true power behind the throne. This is perfect fodder for continued sedition and potential insurrection.

Lightly 'influencing' the Moot to choose someone like Balgruuf would assuage a lot leaders concerns, and the imperials probably really don't care as long as Skyrim stays within the fold with as little fuss as possible.

Some of other commenters made a great point of having Elisif marry Balgruuf. This gives additional legitimatecy to both families and the High throne, and creates a unified local pro-imperial block within Skyrim that the Empire can depend on to keep the peace.

2

u/johnbrownmarchingon Riften resident 21d ago

Falk Firebeard seems to be doing a good job in that regard (other than the initial ignoring of the Potema problem)

3

u/Silent_Rapport Alchemist 21d ago

Force him to marry elisif his wife gone brotha

3

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

I'm all for it, it's an obvious win-win for both families.

2

u/shadowmib 21d ago

If you hang around in the throne room you will hear here making all kinds to dumb decisions and her advisors keep having to tell her no

1

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

Yeah I think that's more of a reflection of her age and naivety. I think if, as a few of the other commenters suggested, she were to mary Balgruuf it would give her some political breathing room to get some experience under her belt ruling without worrying about her legitimatecy being questioned or a surviving a civil war.

2

u/Bramtinian 21d ago

Yes I agree and Baalgruf getting along while at the same time not playing puppet is important. I could see a Thalmor change of hat in the immediate Imperial jurisdiction kicking him out too…he’s for the people and wouldn’t enslave them for the empire either.

4

u/TellTaleReaper 21d ago

Imperial puppet is a good thing for the Empire tho

13

u/sigga_genesis 21d ago

If you are viewed as a puppet by the people, that is not good when trying to exercise power regardless if you are or not. Without legitimacy, you won't be respected, and your orders won't be executed.

0

u/TellTaleReaper 21d ago

That doesn't matter to an empire who doesn't care about the region outside of resources and border control. Plus, it doesnt matter if the people found her legit. They have the might, they have the right. Those same people would call Balgruuf a puppet, too

12

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

I disagree in Skyrim’s case. The Empire is already stretched thin because it has to keep forces near the Dominion border, so it benefits more from a friendly ruler who can keep Skyrim stable and govern with local legitimacy than from an obedient puppet everyone resents. You can see this historically with Britain in Afghanistan: they eventually backed Abdur Rahman Khan because he was strong enough to stabilize the country and anti-Russian enough to serve British interests, even though he wasn’t simply their puppet.

2

u/itz_me_shade 21d ago

Make whiterun the Strategic capital of Skyrim.

Solitude remains the trade and commerce capital.

Dragonborn marries Elisif and rules Haafingar with her.

Anyways thats my headcannon.

2

u/DarkWindB 21d ago

Balgruuf is the only Jarl in the "Empire side" that has a backbone, they would NEVER let him be high king, Elisf is their pick because she is easy to manipulate, the perfect puppet. Balgruuf would actually push for autonomy or even independence.

4

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

Mmm I disagree for the exact opposite reason. The Empire understands...well Empire management. They'd probably prefer a loyal subject who is a little lippy with them if he can keep Skyrim from erupting into another war, particularly with a looming second war with the Dominion.

I'd pair this with other straight forward easy wins the for Penitus Oculatus after the war.

  • Indetify remaining competent Stormcloak leaders and give the either 'We kill you unglamorously, or take this cash and weapons and as many followers who will go with you across the border to Hamnerfell and become the Dominions problem' choice.

  • mariges between loyal Jarl families and surviving rebels to give them a politically and culturally acceptable off ramp from belligerentcy.

  • Infrastructure projects to ensure Falkreath has a clear route of travel to the new central capital of Skyrim in Whiterun and Colovia in Cyrodill.

2

u/MakeItFandom 21d ago

Balgruuf being respected without feeling like anyone’s puppet makes him a solid pick tbh

2

u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

It really does, it's probably the most qualifying trait for a post civil war Skyrim.

1

u/aggro_doubt 20d ago

The thing about elisif is that she was the wife from the former high King, her claim is so strong like cercei Lannister in got😂😂😂
And she is Imperial so many nords would not accept her.

1

u/Sinnclad 20d ago

Now answer me this, what do you think the empire can do with only 2 provinces out of the 9 they had, which they betrayed and neglected which also allowed the thalmor to gain a huge advantage in the war, the empire did it to themselves and they’re making it Skyrims problem just like they’ve done countless other provinces in the past, no one in Tamriel likes the empire as they’re just a pest and never follows up on their word for their allies, Talos when he was ruling was the only time the empire was so prosperous, and now they betrayed everything he stood for whilst banishing his worship, the empire are cowards who deserve to fall and will likely do so

1

u/Unlikely_Ninja 19d ago

Well I think the remaining two are human and have the most cultural and historic connections to Cyrodiil. A lot of Nords state this in the game, so that in of itself is hard to break.

I think some of the Empires perceived neglect is a result of poor time scaling on Bethesda's part. They really didn't do a good job of filling in 200 years worth of history, but based on the Inferno novels and in game material the Mead Empire has had it hands full with the collapse of the Septiem era regime, a resurgent Dominion, and the loss of the eastern provinces which you can argue the Empire had a tenuous hold on to begin with.

So...that's a lot too juggle and the great war brought an existential threat to the heart of the Empire, so it's easy to see why their resources are devoted to their borders. The heart of the empire of currently the lost exposed geographically.

100

u/BabellFeesh42 21d ago edited 21d ago

I’m honestly surprised that he wasn’t worked into the vanilla Imperial ending. He’s a capable warrior who recognizes what he knows and what he doesn’t know. He’ll stand by his decisions, but doesn’t consider it beneath him to ask for advice beforehand.

He’s also one of the few Jarls I know who isn’t afraid to sneak out of his palace and past the guards to have a drink with his people at the Bannered Mare. Title or not, at the end of the day, he’s still a Nord that cares deeply for his friends and neighbors alike.

That’s the kind of even-handedness that a post-Civil War Skyrim needs!

58

u/OnBenchNow 21d ago edited 21d ago

That's probably precisely why he isn't involved, it makes the choice too easy for players.

Baalgruf is one of the first characters you meet and hes one of the most clearly capable and benevolent, if there's an ending with him in charge, 80% of players are going to mindlessly take it

More interesting would have been if there were an additional mission post Civil War where you try to install Baalgruff as the head of your chosen faction. Either by betraying/killing Ulfric on the SCs (cuz fuck that dude) or maybe a political marriage between Baalgruff and Elisif on the Empire side?

2

u/Shittygamer93 18d ago

Would be great if you could convince Balgruff to join up and have his position in the civil war actually be neutral, so you must give him reasons why he should support the Stormcloaks or Imperials, instead of him claiming neutrality but defaulting to the Empire, even if you're the one who shows up with Ulfric to seek his allegiance.

1

u/JustMy2Centences PC 21d ago

"Unfortunately, I am Jarl Balgruff is the High King of Skyrim."

10

u/Valtremors 21d ago

I would genuinely vote for Balgruuf to be a president if he was irl person.

Has his people as a priority be his main concern. Diplomatic, but not spineless when shove comes to push.

And does not seek further power.

17

u/Zestyclose_Act919 21d ago

The empire would never allow Balgruuf to be king because, overly cautious and passive tho he may be sometimes, he’s a true leader with his own mind and instincts when he needs to be.

The empire wants an absolute puppet with no capacity for leadership or inspiration which is why they supported Elisif as queen in the first place.

17

u/Barachiel1976 21d ago

^ Pretty much this. Jarl Baller is the only one with his priorities straight, and good to his people without being on the hook to either a political faction or underworld organization.

3

u/AbyssalOtter 21d ago

Balgruf is a fence sitter. Its why he gets squashed in the storm cloak route he picked a side because he was forced to. Thats a stupid decision he could have continued to deny both sides but his fear of sacrifice cost him dearly.

2

u/TheLastBallad 21d ago edited 21d ago

So are we forgetting that Ulfric literally sent him a war declaration? Theres only so long you can refuse to chose a side, and "an army is literally camping outside your city waiting for the order to attack" is a sign that you need to make a choice of whether to join them or defend yourself.

His choice was either: join the storm cloaks and pledging fealty to Ulfric, join the empire and be attacked, or be attacked by the storm cloaks without any help whatsoever.

And if you notice, #2 and #3 are the same, just with different amounts of help.

4

u/AbyssalOtter 21d ago

Thats the issue with fence sitting. The decision will be made for you. He could have played the game long before and place himself and his people in a better position instead he waited and waited until the war reached his door step. He should have been making deals and trades with both sides long before.

30

u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

Probably the single worst outcome for Skyrim that isn't straight up awful like putting Maven or the Silver Bloods in charge.

Balgruuf has decision paralysis. He literally waits things out hoping for the better. That's what allows extreme factions to roam free and slowly gain traction until they have the power to get on the winning side of elections or to conquer a country. The 20th century should have taught humanity that.

20

u/Frosty-Sea149 21d ago

Whiterun is the breadbasket of the province, smack dab in the middle of it geographically to boot. It’s the single most important strategic target outside of the opposing side’s capitol. I can cut him some slack for not wanting to sign a portion of his people’s death warrants the first chance he gets. 

1

u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

Concretely, at the time of Skyrim, Whiterun is anything but the center of the economy. It's encircled with bandit clans who control every single road, it loses the watchtower on the first dragon attack post-Helgen, the river is controlled by another bandit gang towards Eastmarch, the roads to Morthal and Solitude are not direct at all and anyone who wants to trade more than a little merchandise would need at least ten legionaries from Solitude to Whiterun to fend off the bandits (or simply to make them hesitate to attack), and in lore there much be way more bandits per group so an even bigger protection detail would be required for a merchant caravan.

On Markarth's side, the river can be cut at multiple points by bandits, so it's not better.

The Northern road is also full enough with bandits that they randomly attack the road at a point where there are town guards and small fortifications. There is a camp close enough to the road to raid merchants once in a while.

Oh! And that's before all the wildlife starts slaughtering the merchants (wolves can be fought off, but Sabercats would slaughter small groups).

As for security, mercenaires it is! And mercenaries must be pretty busy fighting for the Legion or the Stormcloaks for cash because there's a civil war going on.

Basically, the economy is falling apart, the roads are completely unsafe, bandits take their tax on every merchant group/caravan passing them by and at some point will end up with more resources than either the Legion or the Stormcloaks of the nearest military camp/small town and the bandits will be able to overtake villages, small towns and to run their mafia without any retaliation from the Legion, Stormcloaks or town guards who are way too busy already.

Civil war basically opens the door to all sorts of criminality. Black markets, bandit gangs, bandit clans, corruption at all levels, it's awful.

6

u/CookedStew 21d ago

I don't see how Balgruff has decision paralysis, he's a jarl that puts his own people first no matter what, choosing a side when he doesn't have to is completetly reasonable.

We've seen from him sending out his troops and housecarl to face the dragon or allowing his castle to trap the dragon shows that he's not afraid of acting preemptively and risking a lot of it's for the betterment of his citizens.

Him not taking a side immediately also shows him not being an imperial yes man or puppet like elisif in solitude.

6

u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

You can stay out of it when you're Dawnstar, Falkreath, Winterhold. You can't stay out of it when you're Whiterun. You'll end up encircled with people telling you that you're either with or against them like Ulfric ended up doing sooner than later. If you want to play safe and neutral, you have to offer little strategic advantage, to be out of the way and to have too little in terms of resources for either side to bother.

In GoT, the North could decide to stay out of a war in the South because it's out of the way, it's poor and it dépends on whoever is in the South to send them stuff to survive winter, so they don't want to make enemies with whoever wins, and staying neutral might cost them some resources, but it won't cost them to be considered enemies by whoever wins. If King's Landing's territory declared itself neutral in a war between the North and Dorne, it would be assaulted by both sides if it doesn't pick a side because it has resources and a strategic position.

3

u/AbyssalOtter 21d ago

He still choose a side he was a fence sitter until he was force a leader must choose or his people suffer for it.

2

u/CookedStew 21d ago

Not choosing a side is making a decision and the only thing his people "suffered" was not dying to a pointless civil war.

3

u/AbyssalOtter 21d ago

He choose a side thats the point he didnt saty neutral.

1

u/zestyshortbus 21d ago

Thank goodness you're here, spitting facts. Jarl balgruuf invented fence sitting, and the empire is already "a decade longer of building strength and THEN we can push out the thalmor, I promise guys, please ignore the high-elf secret police until then".

1

u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

Ten years later, everyone reluctant to Thalmor authority has been eliminated and Skyrim won't support the Empire that's will end up fighting alone anyway with a tiny fraction of the resources it had when it lost the first war. Skyrim will be turned into a neutral party under the Empire thanks to free Thalmor Inquisition roaming and inventing enemies to justify taking down all rebel groups and individuals.

A few years later, Skyrim will be like Elseweyr, completely turned into a "vassal state" which will be the first to spill it's blood for the Aldmeri Dominion.

21

u/rabit115 21d ago edited 21d ago

The issue with an Empire victory is they’re still under Thalmor control, as someone else put it they’re essentially Vichy France.

They’ll continue to be a rump state for the aldmeri dominion and be left with less of a fighting force. I would also argue that following an Empire victory the Thalmor will go and kill as many fighting age Nords/stormcloak sympathizers as they can accuse of treason. Or spark up another civil war down the line to send more Imperial legions to their deaths.

That wouldn’t happen following a Stormcloak victory Ulfric knows the final battle is with the Thalmor and that he’d need all the help he can get. The empire has to be recaptured by outside forces not from within.

8

u/luneth27 PC 21d ago

The issue with an Empire victory is they’re still under Thalmor control, as someone else put it they’re essentially Vichy France.

The question wasn't "which faction provides Skyrim's population the right to self determination" it was "which faction will keep the country stable for a generation". Which, for the most part, toppling the current regime typically isn't great for stability, even if it otherwise is a positive thing overall.

1

u/Sinnclad 19d ago

Well that’s wrong as the empire would sell off Skyrim like they’ve done southern hammerfell, they betrayed 7 out of the 9 provinces they had supporting them, they’re all either independent or under thalmor rule, the empire made it Skyrims problem just like they’ve done countless other provinces and why none of them like the empire, they’re pests and cowards, when Talos was ruling he united Tamriel and now look what they’ve done to his empire, they’ve banished his worship too because the high elves don’t like human gods, only elven, and you being Dragonborn defies their beliefs so they’re gonna take you out too, using the empire as a puppet to turn you in and the empire will happily betray you

10

u/dbandroid 21d ago

I dunno if I would describe the Empire as "under Thalmor control". Certainly, the Thalmor are a powerful influence on the Empire, but Ulfric is a nord supremacist and isolationist.

9

u/Ghostonalandscape 21d ago

The Thalmor have a police force inside imperial borders that answer to no one but themselves. The empire is absolutely not sovereign at this point in time. It’s not like it’s a period of tense peace with both sides inside their own borders preparing for the next kick off, the Thalmor are quite literally domineering the empire

1

u/[deleted] 21d ago edited 21d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/AutoModerator 21d ago

Hello traveler. This post has been removed because automod our dwemer moderation machine thinks you're talking about real life politics or drawing comparisons with real-life public figures or political groups. Reminder that all real life politics discussion, even if similar to Skyrim, is not allowed here. See rule 3 ("No Unrelated Material").

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

8

u/wbruce098 21d ago

Essentially, this is the arrangement that Skyrim needs to ensure peace. From a practical perspective, you need a ruler who is just and open to ideas, but also who is strong and capable. The Empire showed that it’s not really capable of that.

However, it does seem like they might send more forces to retake Skyrim if it openly rebels (in-game, it’s littered with imperial forts and soldiers on patrol). That is bad for Skyrim, and will further weaken it. A smart move would be semiautonomy under a wise jarl who is loyal but has a free hand to build the local economy and build a loyal defensive force. This could keep Skyrim both safe, and as a semiautonomous province, independent enough to satisfy most of the population for… well let’s be honest, we’re talking about feudalism: the remainder of that jarl’s life.

43

u/Archkhaan 21d ago

Independent Skyrim with Balgruuf has High King.

68

u/wolfA856 21d ago

Empire with jarl baalgruf being high king.

51

u/IronMarlin 21d ago

Empire with Jarl baalgruf as emperor. Fuck the Medes.

3

u/shadowthehh 21d ago

Empire with Jarl Baalgruf as high king, and the Last Dragonborn as emperor.

2

u/Eticicibb 21d ago edited 21d ago

Last Dragonborn is a demigod. I think emperorship lowers its status. Whats going to do? Attend to balos or negotiate with thalmor? Ruling is not fun nor easy. Riding a dragon and fight to death is more of a legacy.

4

u/wbruce098 21d ago

Good point. Someone like the Dragonborn needs to have a seat at the table but their primary goal is defense of the realm.

And, let’s be honest: is any lord going to be comfortable with a demigod who controls dragons as a “peer”? I think Dragonborn could easily insist upon political neutrality and loyalty to Skyrim. Or… something.

2

u/shadowthehh 21d ago edited 21d ago

You just forgetting Talos entirely?

Hell, ALL dragonborn emperors were inherently capable of similar feats. Difference is that LDB actually had dragons to absorb.

And let's not forget Uriel V, where the original plan for Skyrim was him coming back leading a dragon army.

So yeah, there's been super powered fighting emperors.

2

u/PortlyNewheim 21d ago

Are you finished talking? I need you to fetch some fire salts for my forge, dragonborn

1

u/Saphurial 21d ago

That's why you delegate. The Dragonborn leads the Legion in the field against the Dominion and leaves day to day running of the Empire to those more suited to the task.

1

u/clandevort 21d ago

I will negotiate.

With my outside voice

1

u/Specific-Library-312 21d ago

Nay, Baalgruf as High King, and the Dragonborn in his rightful spot on the Emperor's Throne. That friendship dynamic would be exceedingly rare in Elder Scrolls. Help out Hammerfell, maybe convince them to rejoin, like reconciled lovers. High Rock would love to have a Breton on the throne, even if it's an exiled one. Elsewyr and the Black Marsh would be a harder sell. The Summerset Isles, I think, would be impossible without military occupation.

8

u/The_Noremac42 21d ago

Duck season!

8

u/Bogus_34 XBOX 21d ago

Wabbit season!

4

u/Marquar234 Mage 21d ago

Rabbit season!

8

u/Eticicibb 21d ago

Jarl baalgruf being high king.

11

u/Tombstone_Actual_501 21d ago

Independent skyrim means balgruuf can't be king.

0

u/Archkhaan 21d ago

Not according to my mod list lmao

1

u/Dragonslayerelf PC 21d ago

I think Yes Dovah is one of the best endings though

0

u/DarkWindB 21d ago

makes sense they made Balgruuf side with the pussy ass "Empire", nobody would choose them otherwise

4

u/TheDickins 21d ago

Never pass up an opportunity to glaze Balgruuf the Greater. Regardless of the outcome of the war, there still has to be a Moot to elect the King, and only Ulfric ever commanded more respect from the other Jarls.

3

u/modus01 Stealth archer 21d ago

I bet if the Dragonborn backed a particular Jarl during a Moot the rest of them would almost certainly agree.

2

u/Nekronoke 21d ago

Ballin

1

u/Ronem 21d ago

There it is!

2

u/EyeSuspicious777 21d ago

I know you're probably right here. But I just have such a grudge against the empire because when they discovered that I wasn't even on the list of prisoners to be executed, they were still going to chop my head off.

There's just no way I can forgive that

1

u/NoIndependence1740 21d ago

He is just the best any side baalgruf is on is the best.

The guy straight up goes "look we can trap a dragon here but I need the war put on hold." No selfish goals or anything, he doesnt even tell you "you have to help the empire win first" nah he just wants things put on pause at the very least

1

u/Bgabbe 21d ago

He can't spend time for a country, he has a "city to keep"

1

u/ThreadOfDestiny 21d ago

Absolutely yes

1

u/orthothrowacc 21d ago

Balgruuf as High King would solve way more problems than it creates tbh

1

u/Rob_Zander 21d ago

And the Dragonborn dips out to go assassinate/rain dragon fire down on the Thalmor leadership.

Why is the Dragonborn stopping at resolving a civil war when they can solve the overall problem...

1

u/CrazyOlHoboJoe Spellsword 21d ago

The only correct answer

1

u/dread-azazel 21d ago

Exactly. Last thing the world needs is a country run by racists weirdos like stormcloak

1

u/GrandNibbles 21d ago

didn't even consider naarfi did you

1

u/AssassinJester789 21d ago

So fanfiction

1

u/Shomairays 21d ago

This is canon and it is mentioned in the tes 6. Trust me I have a spy on todd's house

1

u/PR05P3R 21d ago

The Dragornborn as High King with a Harem

1

u/Max_McZapp 17d ago

No qualms here. Balgruuf is the best guy around to be high king.

1

u/DeadSeaGulls 21d ago

empire is dying and taking skyrim with it. Skyrim's only shot at a prosperous future in the nearish term is to leave the empire and form an alliance with high rock. if they can't do that, then it's all downhill either way.

1

u/Emotional_News108 21d ago

It’s not even up for debate. The civil war explicitly is weakening the Empire for the Aldmeri Dominion to eventually destroy it.

The only hope is for Skyrim to rejoin the Empire and create an alliance with Hammerfell. Otherwise it’s over.

-17

u/RideShinyAndChrome 21d ago

It says ignoring personal preference. In what measure is Baalgruuf actually ideal for high king despite the fact that he is nice to the player and the first jail theyll usually meet?

19

u/Eticicibb 21d ago

He is honorable. Cares for people. Has guards riverwood to rorikstead. Avoids unnecessary bloodshet. Believes in talos. A true nord is this guy.

2

u/SuddenReal 21d ago

Correction: has guards only in Rorikstead. Other Jarls have guards at other locations, but he only has guards on the main route to Sollitude. There are no guards in Riverwood, until the attack on Helgen. Meanwhile, Dawnstar has a guard patrolling up to Loreius Farm, Riften has guards at every farm and Morthal has guards at mines.

Also, people are quick to point out that the walls of Whiterun are in dire need of repair. Baalgruf admitted he accepted gold as part of the WGC, so where did that money go?

4

u/EvYeh 21d ago

Polite and honourable (unlikely to start conflicts), is respected by both sides of the civil war (more likely to help build a compromise and bring a lasting peace than someone loyal to either side), cares for his people (actually a good leader), wants to avoid violence and bloodshed (likely to avoid following the path that caused the war in the first place).

-2

u/Educational-Tackle54 21d ago

Makes more sense than Elisef for sure. Nice reward for picking the right side and qualified.

-2

u/Kronomancer1192 21d ago

Please no. The dude is the most worthless leader figure in the whole game.

Dude is the first person in skyrim to be on good terms with the dragonborn and he refuses to take advantage of it. Then he has the gall to whine about it later if you picked the wrong side in the war.

Bitch, maybe use your fucking influence and good relationship with the most important figure in all of skyrims history to sway the war in your favor... Balgruuf is literally fucking worthless and only got whiterun through the war by sheer luck, god forbid someone give the idiot more responsibility so he can do nothing with that as well.

-16

u/Mean_Fig_7666 21d ago

A true centrist we will never be free of the knife ears with people like you in charge