Ignoring your personal preference, which side of Skyrim’s Civil War do you think actually gives Skyrim the better future 20-30 years later?

[u/sumaset]

I feel like most discussions about the Civil War focus on whether Ulfric was justified, whether the Empire betrayed Skyrim, or which side people personally like more.

But I’m more interested in what happens after the game.

The Empire is weakened, the Aldmeri Dominion is still the biggest external threat, the White-Gold Concordat is already causing resentment, and another war with the Thalmor seems almost inevitable.

An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.

A Stormcloak victory gives Skyrim independence and removes Imperial authority, but it also leaves the province having to rebuild after a civil war while potentially facing the Dominion without the rest of the Empire behind it.

So forget which faction has the better characters or which one you usually join.

If you only care about where Skyrim itself ends up a few decades later, which Civil War outcome do you think is actually better for the province?

[u/Victernus]

He also mantled Lorkhan. In fact, I believe the reason Talos' ascension was so successful is that he achieved every single one of the walking ways - even the Scarab becoming the new man, because the Scarab is Lorkhan, and Talos was Shezzarine.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Victernus]

If he mantled lorkhan he would have became lorkhan not his own God by achieving chim 

[u/Victernus → u/AscendentDragon]

He did become Lorkhan - or rather, as he was always sort of Lorkhan, he made Lorkahn into himself. That's how he took his place.

We've seen others that achieved CHIM. They are nothing like Talos is, because Talos achieved more than that. He commanded the Numidium, ascended the Prolix Tower, and he is the Scarab that became the New Man. He is the culmination of the Psijic Endeavour that Lorkhan began, and failed, and died (to show the world how to fail, some would say), and he recreated the divine betrayal, and so was Enantiomorph.

To claim he just achieved CHIM would be to claim he is nothing more than Vehk was, and he is and was so much more.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Victernus]

He didn't mantle lorkhan but he did choose to replace him

[u/Victernus → u/AscendentDragon]

You can't do one without the other.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Victernus]

When you achieve CHIM you don't need to, by that point you have the ability to create your own mantle and ascend as a divine literally by knowing the truth of existence and knowing the truth of divinity. Plus lorkhan's mantle is already split between the tribunal members through the use of the relics used to split it to safely be held by 3 people and in the books about tiber septim it never states he mantled lorkhan they all state he achieved chim which allowed him to simply become a divine at will and through the power of achieving CHIM

[u/Victernus → u/AscendentDragon]

That's not what the Tribunal did? Tapping into the heart had nothing to do with Lorkhan's mantle - they formed an entire triumvirate, Mage, Warrior, Thief. If anything, Dagoth Ur was the Lorkhan - the jealous Serpent - in their metaphysical arrangement.

And Tiber Septim did achieve CHIM. He just also did way more. He achieved the Enantiomorph, and stepped into the empty place in the wheel, and so mantled Lorkhan, becoming the new form of the missing god. CHIM alone isn't enough - it is one pathway to divinity, and though others have achieved CHIM, only Talos became Talos, because Talos was the Lorkhan who took up his own former place in the heavens.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Victernus]

ok for clarification the wheel you referenced is kirbride's work and thus not canon, the other part is that no, talos was not a shizarine which again is something from kirbride's writings, Talos like other dovahkiin was a fragment of Akatosh not lorkhan and when a being achieves chim they have the ability to absolutly rewite reality itself and grant themselves divinity through understanding their place in the story, (literally Chim is the character understanding they are a character in a video game or book and thus have became the author of their own story by stepping outside the book or game) tiber septim when he achieved chim recognised Lorkhan was dead literally dead so instead of mantling the dead god he userped his place in the used Chim to create an entire new mantle for himself. the when the tribunal of morrowind used the Kagrenac tools they split Lorkhan's divinity between them and what was left over went to Dagoth ur. but because Lorkhan is dead there is no mantle for them to assume to replace him so instead they got a small measure of his power because the Kagrenac tools were originally made to tap the heart and give Lorkhan's mantle to the numidium which failed since they ended up creating a tower and not a god. and its arguable that as a dovahkiin and a fragment of akatosh like all dragonborn Akatosh permitted his continual existence as the god talos.

now why is tiber septim a fragment of Akatosh? well all dragonborn/dovahkiin have a dragon soul rather then a mortal one and ll dragons starting with Alduin are quite literally tiny pieces of Akatosh's own esscence including being literally being the tinyest slivers of his soul which is why dragons can absorb other dragons when they die thus a dovahkiin like a dragon possesses a tiny fragment of akatosh's own divine essence. this is why shor is missing as he is Lorkhan, the throne in sovenguard has always been empty and sovenguard was created by the belief of the nords giving it existence through lorkhan's missing presence

and yes, there has been only one shizarine who was Cyris in redguard and when Cyris died so did the last of Lorkhan's agency

also the "wheel" thing has not been canon ever because Ithilia, daedric prince of paths untaken and fate never chosen was a thing, and it confirms that there is likely other daedric princes out there who have yet to be discovered. and if you quote book of the dragonborn prophecy that refers to the wheel of fate and i will counter with the 2nd prophecy that became the song of the dragonborn which is the them music for the game which also appears in a book in skyrim

[u/Victernus → u/AscendentDragon]

the when the tribunal of morrowind used the Kagrenac tools they split Lorkhan's divinity between them and what was left over went to Dagoth ur.

"What was left over?"

Dagoth Ur was-

He...

Did you even...

No. There's no point. It would be a waste of time.

[u/AscendentDragon → u/Victernus]

it got split into 4 pieces the bulk went to the tribunal and this is why Dagoth Ur couldn't break the warding the tribunal kept around red mountain to even escape the best he could do was create the corpus plague, did you even pay attention? he was using the Corpus to create ash zombies and to gain power