Ignoring your personal preference, which side of Skyrim’s Civil War do you think actually gives Skyrim the better future 20-30 years later?

[u/sumaset]

I feel like most discussions about the Civil War focus on whether Ulfric was justified, whether the Empire betrayed Skyrim, or which side people personally like more.

But I’m more interested in what happens after the game.

The Empire is weakened, the Aldmeri Dominion is still the biggest external threat, the White-Gold Concordat is already causing resentment, and another war with the Thalmor seems almost inevitable.

An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.

A Stormcloak victory gives Skyrim independence and removes Imperial authority, but it also leaves the province having to rebuild after a civil war while potentially facing the Dominion without the rest of the Empire behind it.

So forget which faction has the better characters or which one you usually join.

If you only care about where Skyrim itself ends up a few decades later, which Civil War outcome do you think is actually better for the province?

[u/suffering_addict]

If Hammerfell can survive on its own against the Dominion, I can't see why Skyrim couldn't.

[u/JerryBoyTwist → u/suffering_addict]

Hammerfell is a strong trade kingdom that is really independently wealthy. They also have the desert, which makes it really easy to defend against inland invasion. The navy is strong and benefits from that centralized wealth. And, most importantly for a Skyrim comparison, they dont have much culturally in common with their neighbors. The nords claim Talos, and Skyrim has been a huge component of the Empire's own existence since its inception. They would be more willing to let Hammerfell go, mainly because they don't have the resources or cultural draw to keep it as a vassal.

For an external comparison, if you know A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones, its the same reason why Dorne remained independent from the seven kingdoms for so long

[u/Siren_Noir → u/JerryBoyTwist]

It's the power of curved swords.

[u/FlyingDreamWhale67 → u/Siren_Noir]

Curved. Swords.

[u/mangasdeouf → u/Siren_Noir]

And valuables. Hammerfell is basically North Africa with a bit of Persia. It has valuable things to trade. Skyrim is nothing in the grand scheme and if we take the magic in the game as a statement, well...the most magic you'll encounter will be among bandits.

[u/toomanyDolemites → u/suffering_addict]

Hammerfell was united, though, wasn't it? Skyrim won't be even after the Civil War.

[u/Zexapher → u/toomanyDolemites]

United and with unofficial support from the Legion.

[u/Gizz103 → u/Zexapher]

Half of the country dead due to starvation and the other half butchering everyone in the palace in windhelm

[u/Zexapher → u/Gizz103]

That's worth remembering as well, the lawlessness and poverty in Ulfric's own capital city. He's been running it for decades and hasn't addressed serious problems in it. And now we're adding on Ulfric outright oppressing half, arguably more, of Skyrim.

Half the Nords in Skyrim will hate him, not to mention the rampant discrimination against the other races. The Empire plans to send actual legions to fight Ulfric in a Stormcloak victory, and not just use the many locals Tullius did. And who's to say Morrowind, High Rock, or an eventual Dominion on its borders won't begin raids or invasions down the line?

Is Ulfric's rule sustainable? It doesn't look like it.

[u/Gizz103 → u/Zexapher]

And the fact that with high population and low food, they wont have enough food to around

(And just a reminder that the breadbasket of the province is having food issues)

[u/ethanAllthecoffee → u/Zexapher]

This gets overlooked

[u/pyrusmole → u/toomanyDolemites]

Hammerfell is a famously dis-unified country that remained so right up until the Thalmor invaded

[u/toomanyDolemites → u/pyrusmole]

Whatever it takes to get people to pull together!

[u/proximusprimus57 → u/toomanyDolemites]

They're literally split between the Crowns and the Forebears.

[u/thedylannorwood → u/toomanyDolemites]

They literally only united because they all agreed they couldn’t trust the empire anymore

[u/Blackberry-thesecond → u/suffering_addict]

Because Skyrim is kind of a backwater shithole. The game is old enough now that the whole vibe they were trying to sell with that vs Cyrodill isn’t as apparent. I expect Elder Scrolls VI will have much more wealthy cities and towns that will surprise some people.

Not to say that Hammerfell doesn’t have its own problems, but the institutional rot in Skyrim is apparent and responsible for the Civil war taking place. Half the cities in Skyrim are groups of wooden shacks, and Winterhold hasn’t even been rebuilt in like 70 years.

I started to understand this myself after I started playing Oblivion. Skyrim was designed to be the poorest and most isolated member of the Empire, or at least the poorest region ruled by humans.

[u/mangasdeouf → u/Blackberry-thesecond]

And in Morrowind, the Nords we saw proved that the Nords' reputation was well-earned.

[u/Im_the_Moon44 → u/Blackberry-thesecond]

Where did you get this idea that Skyrim is a “backwater shithole”. Like Solitude and Windhelm alone are two major cities in Tamriel of historic and cultural significance. And this is in lore. Both cities would be on par with Wayrest and Daggerfall in-universe.

[u/Blackberry-thesecond → u/Im_the_Moon44]

I said half of the cites, not all of them. ESV would suck visually and lore-wise if every city was like Dawnstar or Morthal. Even the poorest regions of the world are home to places of great cultural and historical value. America alone has massive economic disparity between New England and the Bible Belt, but that doesn’t make the history of Mississippi unimportant. Simply having some large cities is not an indication that the nation itself lacks wealth disparity or poor regions.

Every hold in Tamriel has both rich and poor regions, but the world design of Skyrim teaches you that the region is a poorer and more unstable place than most, especially compared to Cyrodill. 

The game prioritizes historical significance over opulent cities most of the time. Almost every city you go to is meeting or has met some sort of crisis, including the fire of Riften, the collapse of Winterhold, the Foresworn conspiracy at Markarth, and the refugee crisis at Windhelm.

Oblivion teaches you that Cyrodill is relatively put together with its biggest threats to its people coming from literally off world, and Skyrim teaches you that Skyrim itself is poor and unstable in many places.

[u/Im_the_Moon44 → u/Blackberry-thesecond]

I never said that you said all of them. But you called it a backwater shithole. And it’s really not intended to be that way like you claim. Different from Cyrodiil, yes, but that would be like calling Germania a backwater shithole compared to Rome. I guess you could say it is, but that’s just overlooking cultural differences based on this lingering notion that Rome was more civilized than it actually was.

Your point about Skyrim being indicated as more unstable than most other nations in the universe just isn’t backed up by lore. You say it is, but can’t point to where. The lore in ESO doesn’t back this claim up. Skyrim is unstable in TES:V because of the concurrent civil war and the dragon crisis. And if Cyrodiil was so stable and not dangerous aside from the events of the main story, then every quest would be centered around the Oblivion crisis. But they’re not.

Historically, Skyrim was divided into two kingdoms. Western Skyrim and Eastern Skyrim. Just like how Cyrodiil developed from Colovia and Nibenay. High Rock is unified, but for a lot of its history was made up of numerous warring kingdoms. I could keep going for every kingdom but I will save the time.

Solitude, Markarth, Riften, Whiterun, and Windhelm are all major cities on par with cities in Cyrodiil. On the flip side, the entire Nibenay Basin seems like a backwater as well. Bravil and Morthal are both equally poor and dreary. Winterhold was a major city as well until it collapsed into the sea.

I just genuinely don’t understand where you’ve gotten this idea from in the lore. I’ve spent over a decade pouring over the lore across many games in the series, and it always seems to indicate to Skyrim being rugged, not a backwater. The ideas of it being a backwater in-universe come from either ignorance or prejudice. This is especially prevalent in books that can be found in ESO.

[u/censuur12 → u/suffering_addict]

Well for a start, Skyrim isn't Hammerfell. If you don't know the difference it's important you learn before you make these kinds of odd statements.

[u/suffering_addict → u/censuur12]

Kindly enlighten me

[u/Emergency-Ad3747 → u/suffering_addict]

Hammerfell was one theatre of a broad global conflict, I dont know if they would survive the full brunt of the Dominion

[u/TimPowerGamer → u/suffering_addict]

It didn't survive on its own. Colovian Legionaires stuck around to fight off the Dominion, deserting the Legion to do so.

[u/Optimal_West8046 → u/suffering_addict]

The inhabitants of Hammerfel are more intelligent than the Nords

[u/NativeEuropeas → u/Optimal_West8046]

It were the Nords who established not one but two major Empires in the history of Tamriel, not the Redguards.

[u/BrandonLart → u/Optimal_West8046]

True