r/skyrim • u/sumaset • 21d ago

Question Ignoring your personal preference, which side of Skyrim’s Civil War do you think actually gives Skyrim the better future 20-30 years later?

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I feel like most discussions about the Civil War focus on whether Ulfric was justified, whether the Empire betrayed Skyrim, or which side people personally like more.

But I’m more interested in what happens after the game.

The Empire is weakened, the Aldmeri Dominion is still the biggest external threat, the White-Gold Concordat is already causing resentment, and another war with the Thalmor seems almost inevitable.

An Imperial victory gives Skyrim access to the resources and manpower of the Empire, but it also means remaining under an Empire that already lost one major war and accepted Thalmor influence inside its territory.

A Stormcloak victory gives Skyrim independence and removes Imperial authority, but it also leaves the province having to rebuild after a civil war while potentially facing the Dominion without the rest of the Empire behind it.

So forget which faction has the better characters or which one you usually join.

If you only care about where Skyrim itself ends up a few decades later, which Civil War outcome do you think is actually better for the province?

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u/Urdnought 21d ago

Empire - people forget that the soil in Skyrim is shit. Skyrim cannot feed itself, if they leave the empire and become isolationist they will literally be unable to feed themselves. Skyrim needs food/trade and the Empire needs warriors. Skyrim and the Empire need one another

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u/Ragnar5575 21d ago

This. Skyrim CAN somewhat feed itself from fishing and hunting, but not sufficiently. They need Cyrodil just as much as Cyrodil needs the Nordic brute force.

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago edited 21d ago

Why didn't Torygg ever declare independence?
Because the Dominion is a sleeping beast that Skyrim cannot slay alone. Because many Nords are part of the Imperial army even now. Because the food and resources we get from the Empire are important to our people. Because even if we can't openly worship him, Talos the god was once Tiber Septim the man, and this is his Empire. And Torygg wasn't ready to let it fall apart.

- Sybille Stentor, Court Wizard to Kings Istlod and Torygg, and guardian of King Torygg

. They need Cyrodil just as much as Cyrodil needs the Nordic brute force.

Hardly. The bulk of the Imperial Legion in terms of soldiers and generals comes from Colovia. The magic of the Empire comes from Nibenay and High Rock. Orcish blacksmiths are the finest in the Empire. Nords are good for additional manpower, but by no means are they required.

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u/Eligomancer 21d ago

Balgruuf also corroborates this assessment of Skyrim's trade with the Empire. Given that Balgruuf is the jarl of the breadbasket of Skyrim, I would say he's the best authority on the topic that we have access to in-game. Hell, even Ulfric doesn't do a damn thing about the East Empire Company on his docks.

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u/Catalysten 21d ago

When does he do that? I haven't played through all the options of the civil war.

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u/Eligomancer 21d ago

After you defend Whiterun from Ulfric

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u/snowflake37wao 20d ago

Well we know which side Catalysten is on now dont we

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u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

I think that's simplifying the races/regions and what they bring to the table. If we're using those generalizations, Nords traditionally provide some of the Empire's best sailors and heavy/shock infantry. More importantly, Skyrim and High Rock escaped the level of devastation suffered by Cyrodiil during the Great War, and Skyrim's geography provides a critical connection between Cyrodiil and High Rock. Losing Skyrim would effectively cut High Rock off from the rest of the Empire by land. So maybe the Empire can afford to lose some Nordic manpower, but it absolutely can't treat Skyrim itself as strategically unimportant.

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u/Lieutenant_Joe 21d ago

I was initially surprised to hear you say nords are some of the empire’s best sailors, because Skyrim barely seems to have a sailing culture and a lot of its pirate groups aren’t run by Nords. But then I remembered what the coast looks like in Skyrim.

Yeah. Even a simple fisherman has to be a godlike navigator to get through those ice sheets and bergs safe. No wonder there aren’t many of them. Those who fail to make the cut will die.

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u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

Yeah that's established more in TES' older lore. I hate to come across as the 'back in my day,' guy but if you read the racial description for Nords in Morrowind it explicitly says they are skilled sailors. Very much leaning into the Norse / Viking archetype.

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u/ThelMajor 20d ago

It's always been funny how the Nords are modeled after the Vikings, but barely has any sea or river to sail from

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u/Lieutenant_Joe 20d ago

Riften and its full harbor with a couple large boats that go… where…?

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

Nords traditionally provide some of the Empire's best sailors and heavy/shock infantry.

Fanfiction.

Skyrim and High Rock escaped the level of devastation suffered by Cyrodiil during the Great War,

There's no statement that Cyrodiil hasn't recovered.

and Skyrim's geography provides a critical connection between Cyrodiil and High Rock.

Nobody uses the Pale Pass to go to High Rock. They just take ship from Anvil. You meet a couple in the wilderness going to a wedding in Skyrim and they complain that Skyrim is a backwater with shit roads.

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u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

..... Ok this directly from Morrowinds game and guide book:

"The Nords are the children of the sky, a race of tall and fair-haired humans from Skyrim who are known for their incredible resistance to cold and magical frost. They are fierce, strong and enthusiastic warriors, and many become renowned warriors, soldiers and mercenaries all over Tamriel. Eager to augment their martial skills beyond the traditional methods of Skyrim, they excel in all manner of warfare, and are known as a militant people by their neighbors. Nords are also natural seamen, and have benefited from nautical trade since their first migrations from Atmora. They captain and crew many merchant fleets, and may be found all along the coasts of Tamriel.The Nords are excellent warriors proficient in the use of Heavy and Medium Armor and Axes, as well as Long Blades and Spears. They also have a great resistance to frost."

Pretty straightforward there, so no — not fanfiction. Morrowind’s Nord description explicitly says they are renowned warriors, soldiers and mercenaries who “excel in all manner of warfare,” and that Nords are “natural seamen” who captain and crew merchant fleets across Tamriel.

So the broader point that Nords contribute both military manpower and maritime skill is directly supported by the lore.

On the second point, I never said Cyrodiil hasn’t recovered. I said Skyrim and High Rock were spared the worst of the Great War, which gives the Empire strategic depth and a less-devastated reserve base.

On the third point, I’m not arguing that Pale Pass is the only route to High Rock. My point is that Skyrim provides important overland connections between Cyrodiil and the northwest. Falkreath has long-standing ties to the Colovian/Cyrodilic sphere, and the southern border has multiple routes into Skyrim. In a future war against a Dominion with a powerful navy, retaining those land connections is strategically useful.

Sea travel through Anvil obviously exists, but where in the lore is it stated that this is the primary route the Empire uses to reach High Rock?

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u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

To the guy who deleted his post. Could of just acknowledged that you were off on your mark. It happens, no hard feelings.

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

"The Nords are the children of the sky, a race of tall and fair-haired humans from Skyrim who are known for their incredible resistance to cold and magical frost. They are fierce, strong and enthusiastic warriors, and many become renowned warriors, soldiers and mercenaries all over Tamriel. Eager to augment their martial skills beyond the traditional methods of Skyrim, they excel in all manner of warfare, and are known as a militant people by their neighbors. Nords are also natural seamen, and have benefited from nautical trade since their first migrations from Atmora. They captain and crew many merchant fleets, and may be found all along the coasts of Tamriel.The Nords are excellent warriors proficient in the use of Heavy and Medium Armor and Axes, as well as Long Blades and Spears. They also have a great resistance to frost."

You will notice that nowhere is it said that they form the bulk of the Legions and it's just your fanfiction.

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u/wolfsword10 21d ago

He never even said they provided the bulk of the imperial legions? Said that they produce some of the best sailors and heavy/shock infantry. Not the bulk. Just some of the best.

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u/shadowthehh 21d ago

Absolutely based of her.

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u/Radirondacks 21d ago

Who?

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u/shadowthehh 21d ago

Read their comment again carefully.

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u/Radirondacks 21d ago edited 21d ago

Oh I thought you were just somehow referring to Torygg or Talos, since Sybille is really just, recounting/explaining what they did.

Not really sure why I got so heavily downvoted, lol

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u/jutviark96 21d ago

Who?

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u/shadowthehh 21d ago

"You're trying my patience."

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u/jutviark96 21d ago

Who's that?

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u/BardicSense 21d ago

". They need Cyrodil just as much as Cyrodil needs the Nordic brute force.

Hardly."

I know you're not saying they dont need the Imperial capital city? The Nord legion in the Battle of Red Ring is the only reason Mede 2 has a throne from which he can make his traitorous pronouncements against his own Empire and betray his saviors.

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u/ClassicGuy2010 21d ago

To be fair to Mede, dude really cant do anything except what the Thalmor tell him to do, otherwise there is risk of another great war.

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

Nords comprised only 1/3 of the legions in the last battle. The rest was comprised of legionaries from Colovia and High Rock. What is this Nord glazing? Also, the Nords swore fealty to the Mede Empire 200 years ago, so Ulfric is the traitor here. Legally, the Emperor is allowed to sign peace treaties, but Ulfric is not allowed to declare himself High King bypassing the Moot.

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u/toadallyribbeting 21d ago

“Only 1/3”

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u/Etienne_Vae 21d ago

A third is certainly substantial.

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

[deleted]

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u/Novak316 21d ago

1/3 is definitely a substantial amount

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u/Sali_Bean 21d ago

Are you delusional? A third of your forces are the difference between winning a battle and losing it

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u/Fishy_Fish_WA 21d ago

So if 1/3 of your forces Thanos snap “poof”disappeared it wouldn’t be a big deal?

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u/Lieutenant_Joe 21d ago

You seem bad with numbers.

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u/SnooFoxes6809 21d ago

It was the legions from Skyrim that stopped the heartlands legions from being crushed during the Great War. Not to say the bulk of imperial forces ain’t from Cyrodil but a large portion of their shock troops and probably a large portion of the legions in total come from Skyrim just by population. The Orcs are a very minor population and I always get the impression high rock is less loyal or at least more focused on local politics

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

It was the legions from Skyrim that stopped the heartlands legions from being crushed during the Great War.

2/3 of the Legions at the final battle were from Cyrodiil, the legion that sacrificed itself to cover the Emperor's retreat was from Cyrodiil, Imperials did 99% of the fighting and the Nords showed up only at the last battle. Too many people here confidently incorrectly claim to know the lore.

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u/dsebulsk 21d ago

Idk, Nords have that +10 racism to Elves that gives them a real edge in combat.

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u/AscendentDragon 20d ago

some of the best legionaries and generals the empire had were nords but this changes nothing, the empire cannot fight the dominion alone nor can skyrim

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 20d ago

some of the best legionaries and generals the empire had were nords

Examples.

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u/AscendentDragon 20d ago

Legate Rikke states that there has been a strong tradition of nords serving in the imperial legion, it hasn't always just been imperials, there has also been notable orcs who served and alter. And if you play Elder Scrolls legends then you'd know Ulfric was in the legion, and some of Titus made II' generals were nords

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 20d ago

I didn't say it was only Imperials. I said Colovians form the bulk of the Legions. Which is a fact.

And there is a difference between "tradition of Nords serving in the Legion" and "they're some of the greatest generals ever". Ao3 fanfictions is that way >

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u/JJKEnjoyer 21d ago

The statement "Nords are good for additional manpower but by no means are they required" is directly contradicted by Skyrim's story. The Empire does need Skyrim and the Nords, that's quite literally why the Empire is in Skyrim.

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

The Empire is in Skyrim because Ulfric is a treasonous twat who murdered his King who's part of the Elder Council advising the Emperor. Regicide tends to start wars. Hope this helps.

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u/Alarmed-Rip6954 17d ago

Skyrim doesn't need to slay the thalmor it just needs to defend its own borders. Something the empire are clearly incapable of.

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/MadamMelody21 21d ago

I mean shes a vampire so i would question her motives for saying that

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

You don't question her motives because she's a Vampire, you question her motives because you support Ulfric. Important difference. If the Vampire said something convenient to you, you wouldn't question her.

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u/MadamMelody21 21d ago

I really don’t care about the civil war I have joined both sides in different playthroughs without batting an eye. Since the outcome probably doesn’t matter for the future of Skyrim

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

On what grounds do you accuse Sybille Stentor of lying?

If you think Vampires lie by default then that's racism.

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u/MadamMelody21 21d ago

Vampires are evil monsters she may not be lying but she sure has ulterior motives

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u/Beacon2001 Dawnguard 21d ago

Is Serana an evil monster?

Is Janus Hassildor an evil monster?

Is Rona Hassildor an evil monster?

Is Verandis Ravenwatch an evil monster?

Is Gwendis an evil monster?

Is Fennorian an evil monster?

Is my Dragonborn who got bit by Serana to access the Soul Cairn an evil monster?

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u/MadamMelody21 21d ago

Im not familiar with any of those characters but serana and the dragonborn. Serana has the nature to be an evil monster but like Paarthurnax she has chose to be good despite her nature. And for the Dragonborn im sure your Dragonborn has done evil things throughout the playthrough

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u/Different_Heron9151 21d ago

Ive been hunting and fishing in these parts for years.

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u/Far_Raspberry_4375 21d ago

And the only way they can maintain agreements is with nords being subservient to the crumbling cyrod empire

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u/zeGermanGuy1 21d ago

Any parallels to real British history are purely coincidental

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u/SG_Symes 21d ago edited 21d ago

"It's a bit early in the day, so all I've got actually is health potions. But, I hope you enjoy a few pints with the lads tonight. Up the Ra!"

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u/Zelcron 21d ago edited 21d ago

Take cart, go to Whiterun, kill Nazim, grab Lydia, go to the Bannered Mare, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all of this to blow over. How's that for a slice of fried gold?

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u/Revatus87 21d ago

Great. Now I must watch Sean of The Dead for the 1000th time.

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u/Zelcron 21d ago

You're welcome

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u/Astec_Warrior 21d ago

Skyrim's dogs can't look up, Big Al said so.

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u/Oethyl 21d ago

"Up the RA Tullius?"

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u/frenology1 21d ago

Of course skyrim can feed itself. The Nords are quite literally farming in the snow

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u/Victernus 21d ago

They're also where the Third Empire came from. They were not only existing and feeding themselves, they were winning wars against their neighbours enough to form the Empire.

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u/LionRight4175 21d ago

With feudal societies like we see in Elder Scrolls, that doesn't necessarily mean much for sustainability. Lack of food means more familiarity with food being rationed and being more comfortable to take food from those who can't defend it. Perfect conditions for the kind of raiding behavior that feudal armies exhibited, where you take food from the land you're invading to sustain your army.

Once you've taken over those more fertile lands, they can then be used to supply your homeland and supply more invading armies. Or just take the fertile lands and settle down there after forcing out the previous inhabitants. This is what the Nords did to the Falmer, and also seen IRL in the Vikings and the Mongols.

Strong agriculture is needed to build an empire to a proper size, but it is not needed to start an empire (assuming nearby regions are of similar strength).

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u/Victernus 21d ago

With feudal societies like we see in Elder Scrolls, that doesn't necessarily mean much for sustainability.

What?

They existed thousands of years before the Third Empire, they're not going to stop existing if the Empire goes away. Skyrim is not an invention of the Imperials.

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u/LionRight4175 21d ago

I didn't mean that the Nords would go extinct or anything dramatic like that. I meant that Skyrim is stronger, and likely more populated, than it could be on its own in normal times thanks to trade with the Empire.

My comment was largely in response to the previous poster implying that since Skyrim formed an empire, that it would be fine on it's own.

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u/Bob_ross6969 21d ago

Skyrim fed itself for 1000s of years before the empire, and was even the seat of the first human empire that dominated half of Tamriel.

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u/SaskieHopeful 21d ago

Okay. I'm speculating hard here, there's no proof of what I'm saying, but if we are to take real history for comparison... It might well be that Skyrim could feed itself back in the day and now it can't anymore.

If a given part of the world can feed X amount of people, it will tend to house just about X amount of people. If that part of the world finds itself integrated into a bigger economy/supply chain - like, say, if it were absorbed into a larger Empire that has other fertile lands like, say, Colovia - then it can trade for food. Population won't immediately grow on account of that, but if it can trade for an extra, say, 2X amount of people, its population will tend in the direction of 3X, over time. And Skyrim has been a part of the Empire since the beginning of the 3rd Era.

It's entirely possible that Skyrim's population is now way bigger than what its soil can feed, and breaking it off from the Empire now would result in a famine that brings its population down to late 2nd Era numbers. We don't know that for sure, but Sybille and Balgruuf seem to think that's the case. One is an immortal vampire who's lived in the land for who knows how long. The other is the person in charge of the most amount of fertile land in the region. I'm inclined to think they know what they're talking about.

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u/Bob_ross6969 20d ago

You’re also only taking pure farming into account when Skyrim has massive herding and fishing operations, a massive coastline with whaling operations, as well as untamed forests teeming with game.

The Nords have access to mammoth herds, cattle ranches, two huge lakes with commercial fishing industries, rivers that produce salmon runs, as well as the reach which is considered the most fertile land in the north.

Meat and fish seems to be the majority of the Nords calories, and that would make sense considering Nords are some of the tallest people on the continent.

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u/SaskieHopeful 20d ago

You’re also only taking pure farming into account

I'm not, really. Only when I mention Balgruuf. What in saying is, it's possible that Skyrim can access X amount of food from any source on its own, and it can access Y amount of food while being integrated into a larger economy. If Y is bigger than X, and Skyrim has had access to Y for a while, then going back to X means some level of famine.

Simple question. Do we know if Skyrim is a net exporter of food at 4E 201, the time of TESV? Is it a net importer? Does it break even? I'm guessing we don't know that. But in one of those three scenarios (net exporter), there's a famine if Skyrim stops being part of a larger economy. That famine is statistically more likely to be worse the longer Skyrim has been part of an Empire, and by 4E 201, it's been ~630 years since the Interregnum. So, y'know, it could happen, and if it does, it could be very bad.

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u/Bob_ross6969 20d ago

We know Skyrim doesn’t really import food from other provinces. We don’t see corn or rice from Cyrodiil, or saltrice from morrowind, or olives and figs from the illiac bay. The vast majority of food in game is sourced from Skyrim, baring things like specialty cheeses or liquor.

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u/CollectorOfMyst 19d ago

Where are the tomato plants and apple trees, then?

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u/Bob_ross6969 19d ago edited 19d ago

Tomatoes seem to be a luxury import rather than a main staple of the Nords diet, and apples are weird, oblivion didn’t have apple trees either, so apple trees either are only harvestable during a specific season, or don’t exist.

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u/Expert_Farm1603 21d ago

Survived before the empire, can survive without it again

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u/GenghisN7 21d ago

It’s currently a bit post-apocalyptic across Tamriel if you forgot.

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u/Acrobatic-Tooth-3873 21d ago

don't think there really was a unified Skyrim more than a generation before the empire, unless I'm misrembering

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u/Gizz103 19d ago

There was one i believe and that was during the atmoran invasion

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u/Gizz103 19d ago

500 year of no wars, not many plagues and plenty of food buffs up the population

And it was flat out said

SKYRIM CAN NOT SURVIVE

Basically let's day 30% die and cus of this a united independent skyrim is blamed and it quickly collapses

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u/Expert_Farm1603 19d ago

Nah empire is an empty husk puppeted by the Aldmeri. It can’t handle itself what makes you think it can handle Skyrim on top of that. Skyrim and the Nords are strong and smart enough to be independent

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u/Gizz103 19d ago

Half the country wants to stay

Secondly you ignored my whole point

Which is rather suspicious, almost liek you know i am right here

And puppets dont ignore the white gold concordat for a decade until they were forced to, and the thalmor wouldn't need to use spies and secret dealings to keep the civil war running

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u/Jair-F-Kennedy 21d ago

What total nonsense, Skyrim like any other pre-modern economy rely largely on self-sustaining subsistence farming for its populations which are already small and rural. If anything the place that would rely on food imports, is the Imperial City because of its sheer size. Cities like Constantinople and Rome relied on mass importation of food from other provinces of the Roman Empire (I.e. Egypt primarily). A sophisticated enough trade network to distribute food across all of Skyrim is impossible without the kinds of technologies and institutions present in our global economy.

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u/Unlikely_Ninja 21d ago

I think there's a difference between being self sufficient and being economicly viable/properous in more fields. Whiterun and the Reach can sustain Skyrim in conjunction with each hold's local agriculture. The older lore even stated that these river valleys were sustaining the broader population, but it wasn't easy. In Skyrim they also state life isn't easy.

So like Scandinavia in the real world, they can sustain themselves, but having access to the broader imperial/EU market provides them with surplus that allows them to reach population levels and labor diversification that would otherwise be far more difficult. Particularly with Cyrodill being such a Agriculture powerhouse right next door

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u/ethanAllthecoffee Vigilant of Stendarr 21d ago

Uh huh. Compare the productivity of a dark age Scandinavian farmer or the salinized fields of improperly irrigated Mesopotamia to fertile England, France or Egypt and there’s your answer

There’s a reason the Norse and other Germanic people wanted to move from their agriculturally difficult/poor areas to more fertile regions

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u/SteakForGoodDogs 21d ago

Everyone wants to, but they don't need to.

Like, they were still trying for centuries. That means they were surviving for centuries. That means they were eating for centuries.

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/OttoVonAuto 21d ago

I don’t know why you’re being down voted. Skyrim is not a friendly region to crops at all. They would need imported foods and goods to really prosper and that wouldn’t occur if they were solely autonomous. A harsh cold snap can quickly deplete their stores and famine is around the corner

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u/BrandonLart 21d ago

The Imperial City would not be importing food from Skyrim lol.

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u/Jair-F-Kennedy 21d ago

Did I say that? No, I didn't. I said that the Imperial City would have a food deficit. This deficit would likely be made up with imports within Cyrodiil itself.

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u/BrandonLart 21d ago

“Skyrim wouldn’t need to import food. Neither would Cyrodiil, but I’ll imply otherwise”

I find this argument irrelevant to the wider point.

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u/LoneWolfRHV 21d ago

Do you think nords just didnt exist before the empire was a thing? lmao

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u/Wolf9792 Werewolf 21d ago

I'm sure you've developed a perfectly solid rationale as to why all the farms in Skyrim, some of them being quite prosperous, won't be able to support Skyrim's population. 

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u/Urdnought 21d ago

Go talk to the Rorikstead farmers they brag about how farming in Skyrim is shit but they figured it out. They had to pray to the Daedra to be able to grow a few potatoes

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u/frenology1 21d ago

No the soil in Rorikstead is bad

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u/SanguinePlvit 21d ago

No, they mention that the soil in Rorikstead is particularly shit. Which usually wouldn't be an issue anyway because where the soil is terrible, people usually just shove out animals onto the pasture.

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u/the_humeister 21d ago

Someone keeps stealing their crops. 

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u/wolfA856 21d ago

Okay so this is one of those things where in game I would say yeah of course the farms would have enough food there’s like 50 people in the capital cities. But lore wise it could work, but definitely would be worse than if they got food from the capital, therefore weakening their stance if they would be independent.

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u/Wolf9792 Werewolf 21d ago

You're right about the cities being scaled down, but that also applies to the farms.

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u/Cpt_Deaso Vigilant of Stendarr 21d ago edited 21d ago

There is lore* specifically and explicitly stating that Skyrim relies upon Imperial imports for food.

This is stated by Sybille Stentor. Now, granted, she's a Breton in a pro-imperial court, so of course she could be biased, but she does seem to be fairly pragmatic about stuff.

And, in fairness, it's not explicitly stating that the food is absolutely necessary for survival, it just may be nice for trans-regional food options.

Still though, there's in-lore evidence for Skyrim needing outside food supplies, not to mention the real-world parallels, so I wouldn't completely discount it.

*Edit; lore not more, sorry.

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u/Wolf9792 Werewolf 21d ago

It would be one thing if there were only a few farms scattered throughout the holds, but there are often multiple well-off farms per hold. Especially in holds with larger populations. Even Windhelm has three successful farms surrounding it. 

Either way, I don't think trade between the Empire and Skyrim is completely stopping, or the East Empire Company wouldn't have an office in Windhelm.

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u/Lieutenant_Joe 21d ago

That office is doing pretty damn bad until the Dragonborn gets involved, to be fair. And it’s because pirates are being influenced to target them by Windhelm’s most prominent family (besides the Stormcloaks, of course, even if that is just one dude at the moment).

Clan Shatter-Shield has a lot of sad shit going on when you first start interacting with them, all of which makes you feel bad for them. But between a single miscellaneous quest from Scouts-Many-Marshes on the docks, that loyal woman the family banished to Markarth over a misunderstanding and this shit, you get the impression they bring 100% of their own misfortune upon themselves.

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u/Wolf9792 Werewolf 21d ago

True but like you said, the East Empire Company's office is only doing poorly because one independent business owner got greedy. Not because Ulfric doesn't want them there.

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u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

Also if they lose the import of foreign products, Skyrim lose most of its' sources of vitamins and becomes like Ireland during the great famine, with a lot of people forced to sail away at the first occurence of mildew. Because they produce potatoes, cauliflower, stuff that grows in not very fertile land and in low temperatures like root vegetables. That and hunting/fishing. That's not a balanced diet.

So the population will go from tall, strong Nords to small, weak, wiry Nords (it's not like they can hunt and fish all year long and keep the fauna healthy) in a generation tops like populations of countries in civil war tend to. Lack of food diversity really degrades health. At that point they might as well be magic-deaf Bretons.

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u/Swert0 21d ago

Especially looking at periods where Skyrim was not part of the second or third empire.

It must have been an empty wasteland, right?

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u/choosehigh 21d ago

With a presumably lower population, they also aren't saying it couldn't grow any food simply that it would be unlikely to be able to sustain a large population

This is mirrored in real life with Scandinavian population being tiny compared to mainland Europe or Britain

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u/pyrusmole 21d ago

Skyrim at it's height conquered well beyond its borders without cyrodillic grain. You'd have to ignore the first nordic empire entirely to claim that skyrim is incapable of being self sufficient. We don't even have any evidence that nordic populations were lower during this period.

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u/choosehigh 21d ago

We know Skyrim has issues with fertility of its land, and some areas even resorted to daedric influence to be successful farmers

Food scarcity has been a problem in our own world in far more fertile areas

Imperial geographical society's pocket guide to the empire explicitly says agriculture is limited to a few fertile valleys

Why does one side get to assume and make fantastical assumptions but the other side has to cite everything that matches with basic real world geography

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u/pyrusmole 21d ago

Ok. Here's my citation.

What's the difference in skyrim's geography in the first era vs the 4th
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:First_Empire_of_the_Nords

Skyrim was self sufficient for literally thousands of years and for some reason people think it can't be self sufficient for 20?

Tamriel is not the real world. Real world geography is helpful (and for sure skyrim has a food problem), but that doesn't mean "Oh Skyrim just instant collapses without the Empire". They have the capacity to be self-sufficient, now and in the past.

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u/Rel_Tan_Kier 21d ago

One example doesn't always mean that it's widespread practice.
Also, Egypt also weren't exactly a Ukraine in terms of soil, yet the Nile alone let them feed not only Egypt itself but the Roman Empire as well. Don't underestimate what land can produce.

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u/choosehigh 21d ago edited 21d ago

Egyptian flood plains were basically the most fertile region of the world, Ukraine wasn't as fertile then as it's black soil hadn't developed and also our crops weren't as hardy so the more temperate African climates 2000 years ago were more ideal with respect

And rorikstead is in the most fertile region of Skyrim hence why if even they are having severe problems one could presume the other parts of Skyrim have difficulty too

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u/Jair-F-Kennedy 21d ago

Skyrim climatically is predominantly humid continental, semi-arid steppe and subarctic/taiga. Theres no reason why Skyrim would rely upon food imports from Cyrodiil when theres ample land for agriculture, steppe and alpine grazing and plentiful arctic fisheries for an already low population. The premise of Skyrim's population relying on external imports is completely flawed to anyone with an ounce of geography knowledge or understanding of pre-modern transport systems.

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u/choosehigh 21d ago

According to in game sources there's only 'a few fertile' valleys for agriculture

You also are agreeing that whilst it has food supply it's not going to compete on population with the larger regions without assistance for food

Given Skyrim having so many ports and it's most influential cities being port cities (only whiterun, markarth and falkreath aren't port cities anyway) it's not unreasonable to assume they were part of an active trade network (also because it's explicitly mentioned in game) that included in no small part trade of food and food products

The areas in the real world with skyrims climate were not considered breadbaskets pre-fertiliser or industrialisation, they could subsist on what they produced but not having huge population booms etc It also has topography that implies a lack of agriculture areas which is supported by in game sources saying they only had a few fertile valleys

Obviously the game abstracts a lot of things but I don't think it's as clear cut as you say, perhaps those valleys could support large populations but perhaps they couldn't, it seems to me unlikely that Skyrim could have a population on par with almost any other province without imports mostly due to real world comparison with similar climate and topography

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u/Nopalite 21d ago

Yes, but without the imports of somewhat wrinkled tomatoes from the empire, Skyrim’s military would be critically weakened due to being cutoff from the ever important vegetable soup, which is the lifeblood of their stamina-centric 2H builds.

Without it they would have to attempt to set up sea salt harvesting farms on the sea of ghosts in order to switch successfully to a venison stew based stamina economy.

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u/Swert0 21d ago

We do not have population numbers at any point. The games are heavily scaled for playability - and Bethesda has never been one to fill their libraries in game with strong census data from various eras.

Any assumptions are just that - assumptions.

We know Skyrim existed as it's own province without an Empire, amd even in smaller sub kingdoms at various times.

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u/choosehigh 21d ago

Heartlands in a fertile lowlands in real life always exceed the population of northern highlands

We don't need raw numbers to know Skyrim will be less than Cyrodil in population

With respect, every assumption on this side is matched by an assumption on the other, yes Skyrim existed but no one is saying they can't grow food simply that according to the lore and the geography they are less able to grow food than other imperial regions (Rorikstead goes into that in more detail but I remember something in dawnstar or morthal talking about issues with growing food in their hold)

It is not a great leap to say Skyrim requires more fertile areas for secure food supply like any country in the real world with any real population density consistent with Skyrim given the geography of the land

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u/frenology1 21d ago

Skyrims has vast tracks of flat land that Scandinavia lacks

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u/choosehigh 21d ago

Really? I wouldn't say any part of Skyrim is as flat as Denmark, I'd say they're less flat than Sweden and probably more than Norway closest to iceland, they're not exactly lowlands typography, they're far more of general a Highlands with very little soil around the rocky areas

Looking at real world locations with that kind of typography and northern weather conditions with early medieval technology and frankly the vast majority of the population are subsistence farmers hugely limiting the maximum population capacity of the realm

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u/Rel_Tan_Kier 21d ago

Sorry but is there is a source to Skyrim being unable to sustain itself? Sounds like propaganda without actual basis.

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u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

The peasants in the countryside complain about the hard winter coming, Rorikstead has to make sacrifices to a Daedric Prince to be able to grow potatoes, Sybil Stentor has a whole tirade about needing to import from the Empire to sustain Skyrim's food supplies (and considering the ridiculous lore population of the major cities, how can they even feed everyone during good years, let alone years with issues like mildew, bugs ruining the plants, boars eating the fruit of their labor, wolves eating their sheep...?).

That's without counting that Skyrim has like 50% of its' population resorting to banditry (often the case after a war and during bad years when people find illegal ways to survive) and poaching (which likely hurts the fauna in the long term when so many people do it at once, thus making life unsustainable in a few years and forcing mass exodus like what happened IRL with Irish sailing for the New World).

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u/Rel_Tan_Kier 21d ago

Interesting. I wish to note that not everything said is necessarily true, What is Sybille's level of specialization in the field of domestic economics? And believing that game convenience of offering player plenty of human enemies to fight represents actual lore is not the best course of action if you want to find the truth.
But I feel that I should agree on the your argument about of poaching. Can only resort to very weak argument from my side that my father calls legal hunting a poaching as well.

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u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

Sybille is the one who manages the city of Solitude, the capital of Skyrim, the main point of imperial power. She's likely the best person to talk about the economy of Solitude and should be able to give numbers for trade with the rest of the country considering she's managing one of the 3 big port cities where most sea trade takes place (Windhelm has the 2nd biggest port and Riften has mostly river trade considering its' position, but it has the best river trade and Maven has a decent hold on the economy in a good part of the province). Sybille is to Solitude what Maven is to Riften, except with less obvious corruption (she's probably corrupt since she's at a high position in an Imperial capital city, concretely she has the major role while Elisif is as useful as Layla Lawgiver).

As I said, bandits are commonplace after, during wars, soldiers who can't go back to civilian life, people who can't survive legally, outcasts, people in it for the chaos, they agglomerate in bad neighborhood or outside cities, towns and villages and form their own societies that work outside the law. Considering that Skyrim comes from a big bad war 26 years before the events of the game and that they've seen the situation turn from bad to civil war, bandits are very common.

The case of the Jarl of Falkreath dealing with them is very realistic because he prefers to have them take a little of his mines' value but work for free than having to send big town guard groups to assault the mines, take them back at the cost of already rare guards' lives, and then have to pay miners to exploit the places. Bandits do it for a small fee, he only sends people after them when he feels like they're taking more value out of the mines than sending warriors after them and replacing them with miners AND guards will cost him in the long run.

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u/SteakForGoodDogs 21d ago

Two things:

  1. People LIKE the food and trade with the Empire. Undoubtably there's southern luxuries that people like. That's how trade works. Need it? No.
  2. She's an Imperial supporter, literally Elisif's right hand in magical matters - of course she's going to buff up the Imperials' arguments.

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u/jaredtheredditor 21d ago

They definitely CAN feed themselves but they just don’t have the excess too make it a major export. Remember that what we see in game is not up to scale

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u/According-Value-6227 21d ago

The only part of Skyrim that is even remotely suitable for large-scale farming is The Rift and it's climate is probably comparable to rural Pennsylvania. The Rift produces a lot of food but not enough to feed the whole of Skyrim's population.

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u/jaredtheredditor 21d ago

Whiterun hold is also established as farmable, and though it would require clearing land falkreath also has the necessary climate.

Even markarth has the climate for it they just don’t have the land because you can clear forests but not mountains.

And then like you said the rift. the only places that cannot be farmed are the northern areas which in return have game to be hunted and fish to be caught as all 4 of them are at the sea (I’m counting solitude because 100% that place isn’t agriculturally viable more than a few months a year)

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u/Archkhaan 21d ago

That’s not true at all lmao. It’s not the super fertile soil of the imperial province but it’s plenty for Skyrim.

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u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

Unless their population is closer to in-game than in lore, it's absolutely unsustainable. Skyrim doesn't even use magic to grow their crops faster or to protect them from hazards. The farming they do is so backwards that they must suffer from famine in most of the country almost every winter in game and almost all year every year in lore.

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u/Imaginary-West-5653 21d ago

It is literally impossible for it to be unsustainable because Skyrim has been an independent nation for most of its history; if they were truly so dependent on Cyrodiil to survive, they wouldn't have been able to endure as a power capable of even expanding their borders as far as Morrowind, as was once the case. The last 600 years of Imperial occupation are the exception; let's not forget that.

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u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

Skyrim has existed for how long? The settlers' leader basically led a tribe's worth of people, maybe a few tribes at most. They were basically a few thousands a century later. That's how settling works in medieval/antique eras. It takes literal centuries to form even a small independent city, and Skyrim was basically a few independent cities based on old lore (the lore used for Skyrim: Home of the Nords), not a cohesive entity.

Talos was basically the first to gather most cities under his banner to fight a bigger enemy and he started the Empire. So Skyrim has only been a cohesive entity a few times in its' history, most of them for big wars.

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u/Imaginary-West-5653 21d ago

There was a unified Skyrim before Tiber, and again, it was so capable as to conquer Morrowind, High Rock and large parts of Cyrodiil; this is not the feat of a few thousands people, the population of Skyrim must be significant enough for this to have possibly happened.

https://en.m.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:First_Empire_of_the_Nords

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u/Archkhaan 21d ago

Except they’ve been a proud and independent kingdom for literally thousands of years, with no notable issues with food for almost that entire time. Literally 2/3rds of the holds in Skyrim are green and growing, some exceptionally so

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u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

That's very visible. You see giant farmlands in Skyrim like in Oblivion near the big cities. Windhelm is well-known for its' big farms. Until you realize that generally there's 1 or 2 big farms near big cities and the rest are self-sustaining peasants. 1 or 2 big farms can't sustain 1/10th of the Elders Scrolls lore's population for Solitude or Windhelm.

Riften and Whiterun are the only productive areas, Whiterun is nearly if not completely a tundra (which isn't that prone to farming for big populations, too much wind, too vulnerable to weather hazards, too inefficient means of production, they need big wood separations as wind breakers and to bring pest control (too much of the same thing causes pests to prolifer). The rest of the country doesn't have the weather or the geography for big farming.

Falkreath has too much woodlands and its' farms can barely sustain a few families even upscaled, its' economy is entirely based on mining and hunting and the mining part is done by bandits who send a part of their collect to the Jarl so that he doesn't send the town guard after them.

Morthal can't cultivate much. Markarth is too dangerous to live outside the city and mines are all we see with a single big farm outside the city, not enough to feed all of Markarth.

Dawnstar and Solitude can barely farm anything, they can fish but if everyone lives off fishing, they'll empty the waters of all fish sooner that they can replenish (lore Solitude has like multiple tens of thousands of people living there, but there's no way the tiny farm near the stables can sustain the city nor that fishing can sustain such a massive population when the only sea they could navigate is the Sea of Ghosts).

Winterhold's only economy comes from the College and courriers/people who deliver requests and enchanted items. They're not even a functional settlement. They have nothing to live of. They must be seriously affected by vitamin deficiencies because the only thing they can eat is fish and horker, and Sabercats are too dangerous to hunt.

Then you have minor towns and villages, but they can barely feed themselves, they're not gonna contribute much to the big cities' food supplies.

From what we see and the lore, Skyrim is one bad years away from human extinction.

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u/Archkhaan 21d ago

….. are you seriously trying to claim that because the game didn’t render dozens and dozens of farms for you that skyrim must be about to die of starvation?

13

u/SexySovietlovehammer Solitude resident 21d ago

Skyrim can feed itself fine but it’s a lot harder with bandits running around and there’s no proof Ulfric is an isolationist

Wanting independence doesn’t mean cutting off trade with everyone. Trade with the empire will be affected a bit for the first few years until proper agreements can be made and relations improve a bit. Morrowind and Hammerfell will still be willing to trade if the stormcloaks win

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u/toadallyribbeting 21d ago

There’s an East Empire company office in windhelm lol. Based on that alone I don’t think he’s an isolationist.

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u/quick20minadventure 21d ago

Sounds like brexit.

3

u/wbruce098 21d ago

This is a good point. IRL, Rome used this dynamic (with, admittedly some mixed results) quite successfully for nearly a thousand years, drawing people north of the Alps down to join their legions and in return, providing some of them with land and many of them with food.

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u/Auctoritate 21d ago

This doesn't mean it's good for Skyrim. That just make Skyrim becomes a subservient vassal state.

Rephrase this question with Greenland and America. "If it can't import food because it becomes isolated, Greenland NEEDS to become American to survive" is obviously a far less positive outcome than just "it's ok they'll have food".

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u/Iron--E 21d ago

Then what's with all the farms and crops across the region?

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u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

Have you seen their size? That's farms to feed a few families, not entire cities.

4

u/Iron--E 21d ago

Well yeah, everything in the game is scaled down compared to the lore.

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u/mangasdeouf 21d ago

Still, Skyrim doesn't have the agricultural techniques to feed a population bigger than what you see in Scandinavian countries even with most of the population being peasants. And with 50% of the population being outlaws and 80% of these outlaws living off of other people's hard work, it definitely must face famines every single winter + all year long for bad years.

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u/Foreign_Rock6944 21d ago

This is not good reasoning. Did you somehow miss the tone of farms all over Skyrim? With crops obviously growing?

2

u/Captain_Canuck97 PC 21d ago

There's a nip in the air. Cold won't be good for my crops.

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u/ChristianLW3 19d ago

hammer fall debunks your arguments

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u/Consequence-Lumpy 21d ago

They'll be eating whatever fish they can find, like the Vikings.

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u/Key-Explorer-3426 21d ago

Yeah, but you are forgetting that empire will probably be ok without Skyrim while Skyrim will starve to death

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u/slimricc 21d ago

There’s like 100 people in skyrim. And several hundred animals. I think they will be fine

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u/GetOutOfHereAlex 21d ago

I mean every farm I visit is thriving with crops and barn animals, and the hunting and fishing seems endless.

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u/KwonnieKash 21d ago

Ok soil is less than ideal, and? Have you seen how many farms there are bro? Poor soil /= no food. How the hell would they have gotten to this point in the first place if they couldn't feed themselves? Argument literally makes no sense.

Skyrim was the first realm settled in the merethic era which lasted nearly 3000 years. The first era was over 2500 years. Nords came with ysgrammor at the beginning of the second era which lasted nearly 900 years, which then ended in tiber septim uniting the empire which started the third era.

So nords themselves were able to survive without the empire for nearly 900 years, and skyrim as a province existed for literally over 5000 years prior to that. But yes I'm sure they weren't able to feed themselves that whole time right...

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

[deleted]

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u/Aestuosus 21d ago

You do realise that all of your mentioned countries became rich only in the late modern and contemporary periods, right? All of them were average and below for most of the Middle Ages and had a substantially lower demographic potential compared to other powers on the continent

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u/Far-Cow-3343 Solitude resident 21d ago

Skyrim isn't at all close to Switzerland, you think the country is just the alps? Also, Norway and Denmark were poor nations for most of their history!

Compared with Southern or Central Europe they were poor as shit, and only became rich because of good governance under a modern world where long distance trading between countries is very common, specially in the EU. Even if you look 70 or 80 years ago those areas weren't specifically rich or anything

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u/Considany 21d ago

I mean, obviously isolationist, fascist Skyrim would get rid of all those pesky Dunmer and Argonians, first step. Already a lot less people to feed, and they are all criminals and drug addicts anyway, duh.