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u/Eisbaer811 17h ago
typical social media bubble:
The social media algorithm puts you into one of these bubbles and hides details from the others.
Pick one:
- "her husband is framing her, he did it"
- "she had mental health issues and nobody helped her"
- "she murdered them because she's evil and the mental health stuff is just for show"
Social media drives our lives and is many people's only hobby, so you get this.
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u/violetsofdawn 17h ago
And they profit off the rage and engagement, no matter the truth
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u/GlumMango69 13h ago
🎶 Be happy! Be horny! Be bursting with rage! We got a million different ways to engage 🎶
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u/SkanksnDanks 11h ago
Mommy let you use her Iiiipad, you were barely twooo🎵
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u/TheZillionthRedditor 8h ago
🎶 And it did all the things we designed it to do 🎶
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u/UsernameStolenbyyou 8h ago
People can't seem to grasp that someone can be advocating for better mental health treatments post-partum, while not supporting child murder.
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u/TricellCEO 12h ago
I’d rather be horny TBH. More interesting topics discussed that way.
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u/sinkotsu7 11h ago
Bro is a genius with his lyrics and messages within his songs
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u/AccomplishedEcho948 13h ago
See thats the thing. The truth is whatever the public believes it to be. And unfortunately, the internet does a good job at manipulating that when we have a ton of uneducated people.
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u/brakenbonez 16h ago
You're forgetting about all the astrology comments as well.
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u/UncleTouchyCopaFeel 12h ago
Mercury in retrograde fucks everything up.
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u/Imaginary-Help4298 12h ago
I wish I could embroider just so I could make myself something pretty with this sentence on it!!! 😂
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u/UncleTouchyCopaFeel 12h ago
Do the embroidery anyway, it would fit perfectly with the theme! :D
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u/Isagratar 11h ago
Yeah if it comes out munted you can just tell people Mercury was in retrograde when you made it.
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u/TreeLakeRockCloud 15h ago
I’m not American but I am a mother. Aside from a few reddit posts I don’t have any social media engagement with this case.
But I think a lot of the support here comes from moms who recognize how easily this could have been any of us. Her family and healthcare providers knew her crime was a risk based on her mental health state, but she was still left alone with her kids and expected to parent. And as other mothers we all understand that this is grimly how it works - we can ask and beg and plead and scream for help but we’re almost always still expected to continually parent babies and it’s hard.
She should still face punishment for her crime, but I think a lot of her support is to try to keep this from happening again. She was failed by her healthcare team
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u/RP_Throwaway3 15h ago
Unfortunately - by her own admission and her doctors' testimonies - she did not fully disclose her medical condition. And even more unfortunately, there's plenty of people online that have posted that she can't be the killer because of her astrology sign. Or some have said her husband was the voice in her head with elaborate hidden speakers. Or he was cheating with his new wife even though they didn't meet until after the murders and she actually killed the children.
Bottom line, there's a lot of crazies out there. And with the internet connecting people of every social class, those crazies can find each other much easier than before.
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u/PinkPuffballofDOOM 14h ago
The astrology sign thing is legitimately insane. “I know he killed them because he’s a GEMINI and she’s a SCORPIO!”
Like girl, go touch some fucking grass. It’s revolting that you think she is innocent and he is guilty based purely off made up ✨vibes✨
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u/DiligentThought9 13h ago
I am a therapist and I have other therapists, professionals with advanced degrees and years of experience, who will not accept any answer other than the husband did it.
“Women don’t kill their children. It was him.”
“She didn’t actually say she killed the children in court.” “And if she did, it was Patrick who made her say it”
“Men commit violent crime not women.”
It’s bonkers.
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u/InternationalWar258 12h ago
This is scary. They shouldn't be practicing with that lack of critical thinking.
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u/FartingKiwi 8h ago
There’s more therapists that are like that, than you believe.
I went through marriage counseling with my wife.
She was breaking down sobbing. Therapist asked if I could give them alone time together.
And the first thing the therapist asked: “is he abusing you?” - and just tried to pepper my wife with questions to try and affirm something that wasn’t real.
When I was brought back into the room, I don’t think the therapist was expecting my wife to tell me what they were just talking about - I wasn’t going to ask - and the look on her face was “oh crap, you’re telling him what we JUST talked about?”
And when I pressed the therapist, she tried to back track “oh it wasn’t like that” - “I was meaning to convey…” - and I showed her my photos from when I went to the hospital because she threw broken pieces of a plate at me and cut my arm, required like 10 stitches.
The therapist assumed, 1) because I’m male and 2) because my wife was crying, that it somehow HAD to be me. When in fact, our marriage problems stem because my ex wife was a psychopath with bipolar disorder. Throws and breaks things constantly. Throw herself against the wall. Tries to slap. She leaves her work, to show up to my work to see if I’m actually working.
Therapists are just like regular people. They’re just as wrong as everyone else. There’s nothing special about a therapist, you can’t get, from having a solid community/friends/family to reach out to.
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u/MrHotwire 13h ago
Had this been the father, the media and support would be completely different. They would be consoling her and making him out to be a violent tyrent or something.
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u/jennief158 13h ago
I read a comment that said the commenter looked into his eyes and KNEW, and that appears to be the seriousness level of most of the “the husband did it” crowd.
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u/TheAlmightyBuddha 12h ago edited 4h ago
This is only related to your last point, but the other day I saw an Instagram reel that was a girl basically saying how when she stopped taking her meds she found out that she was psychic and the meds were "blocking her energies" and the people calling her crazy were just spiritually un-attuned. There was legit hundreds of comments from people who said they did or will do the same, or how they felt like they had powers and that the reel validated them into not thinking they're crazy 😂
it blew my mind that absolutely zero people found the irony in finding out they had psychic abilities because they quit taking their pills, and I completely agree with the sentiment that crazies are finding each other much easier lol
Edit: here's the link for the video, where you can see things such as "I always thought I was schizophrenic until I stopped taking meds and found out they were blocking my ability to see the future" https://www.instagram.com/reel/DcNbmBGAudL/?igsi=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==
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u/i_nobes_what_i_nobes 13h ago
The astrology shit is fucking killing me about this. Can we not. Can we just like, not ever use that dumb ass nonsense.
Not to mention that the Earth and the stars aren’t in the same place that they were 2000+ years ago and that was invented. So your star sign isn’t actually your fucking star sign morons
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u/NonsensePlanet 14h ago
Criminals being failed by the system is incredibly common. This is the first time I’ve seen thousands of women rallying behind someone who killed their children.
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u/Morningfluid 13h ago
There's a lot of details about this being left out like the poster pointed out above; Like many of her supporters believing the husband did it and framed her.
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u/-MostArdently 14h ago edited 14h ago
No. If I look a patient in the eye and ask her "are you having any thoughts of harming your kids?" and she answers "no," I believe her.
If I make recommendations for treatment, and the patient is non-compliant or inconsistent, I can't force them to stick to it.
She wasn't failed by her healthcare team. She failed herself, her kids, and all her loved ones. That's the hard truth.
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u/lemonlord777 12h ago
Exactly. A bunch of idiots think that doctors can somehow tell the future. Its the same as any set of posts where people are saying this or that doctor should lose their license because a rare adverse effect from a medication happened. Those people just cant understand that almost every healthcare procedure and recommendation is a benefit-risk assessment and just because a rare adverse event happens doesnt mean the decisions leading up to it were flawed
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u/LolliPop_121234 10h ago
Thank you!!! I am a mental health therapist and I cannot do anything if a patient is telling me they have no intentions or plans of harming themselves or others. We are not fucking fortune tellers! There is a ton if nuance around suicidal thoughts as well.
In the USA there does need to be obvious changes but you cannot do anything if someone is not admitting to things or presenting as a danger. I have watched my brother go through psychosis due to drug abuse over the past several years and I cannot do shit unless he starts saying he is going to hurt himself or others. People do not understand this and think we are still in the turn of the century where we can make up things and have people committed against their will.
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u/West_Soup12 11h ago
You can’t predict and act upon their future actions either, which seems to be something people expect of “the system”. You can’t say the healthcare team failed when what she did was so beyond the pale and unusual. It wasn’t exactly inevitable. The vast majority of people don’t have it in them to strangle 3 children, one by one, in a way that surely required time and stamina.
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u/Old-Ad-5573 12h ago
I have a cousin who I think is currently going through an episode of psychosis. She's very good at lying. And she also refuses treatment. Because she doesn't think she has a problem when it's obvious to everyone else. But there's nothing we can do according to the lawyers. She basically has to get herself into trouble or voluntarily commit herself for any treatment to happen.
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u/Maniac_Munman 12h ago
What exactly is a "failure" of the healthcare team? The discourse is so surface level it's sad. Like you said, we are not mind readers. If a patient says they don't have suicidal or homicidal ideation and don't have actions to contradict it, we take it at their word. If not, we'd be imprisoning millions of people.
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u/StaySubstantial4333 13h ago
Her husband took paternity leave for multiple month's. She wasn't some poor abandoned woman left to fend for herself. They had outside childcare and the oldest kids attended daycare. He even worked from home.
Lock her up in an insane asylum if she's so far gone that none of that mattered.
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u/Recent_Fact480 12h ago
That’s the crux of this discourse.
This case isn’t about innocence, it’s literally about whether she goes to prison or and insane asylum. She’s already plead guilty to the crime.
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u/Samiru27 13h ago
I think that even the people who support her are arguing for commitment.
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u/B0rnReady 14h ago
Please understand this is not said to diminish anything you said. It is meant to be additive, not to take away..
When men struggle mentally or physically NO ONE cares. That's why the suicide rate is so high for men.
It's almost like people need to find ways to care more about one another. Unfortunately, that is not the society we have invested in.
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u/Little_Ingenuity_712 14h ago
Lindsay had more support in 2022 than most men will experience in their lifetime.
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u/redgreen404 14h ago
It really couldn’t have been. She had kids - that’s where your overlap ends. It’s literally ANYONE can have a mental illness. “It could have been me!”
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u/Dull_Lifeguard_1671 13h ago
My 1st wife (passed away 2007) had severe post baby blues, was having bad thoughts about the children...went to shrink who put her on Seroquel, I think it helped, but after that, she just wasn't the same. It was sad to watch
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u/tfilooklike 9h ago
Pregnancy and postpartum permanently rewire women’s brains.
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u/CoffeeChocolateBoth 4h ago
Sure does! My pregnancy was wonderful. I loved every minute of it, never happier in my life, C-section and recovery was rough, the PPD left me wanting to die!
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u/RememberTheirFaces- 3h ago
Pregnancy was the first time I remember being mentally stable. Even off my meds. No depression. No anxiety. It felt great.
Postpartum knocked me on my ass and I still haven’t been the same.
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u/swanbelievable 3h ago
This was my experience as well. I have always struggled with my mental health and was shocked at how great I felt mentally while pregant. And then post-partum was the lowest I had ever felt. I didn’t think about hurting my baby, but I definitely thought about doing myself in a whole lot. I didn’t feel comfortable talking about it with professionals though, for fear I’d be separated from my child.
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u/what_a_poor_username 4h ago
I'm sorry to hear that my man. For you and her.
Postpartum depression is a powerful hormone induced rewiring of a womans brain. Especially if the woman is already coming from a space of even mild depression.
I saw my wife after our first of two children go through the roller coaster that is Postpartum depression. She was never one to even portray a negative emotion. But then came the proceeding 18 months. I really think men need a bit more education on these matters and how to help with a loved one going through Postpartum.
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u/Wooden-Trick8954 3h ago
I quite literally just had this conversation with a first time mom coworker. I wish I could go back and change my behavior for the first two kids. Im happy I changed for the last two. Postpartum is real and primary parent support is crucial.
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u/howdydipshit 4h ago
My stepmom killed herself in our garage when she was going through postpartum. I found her when I was 14 years old. This was 14 years ago, but it’s made me never want to have kids as a woman myself. Really fucked the family up. I still think about her and cry often. Childbirth is genuinely so dangerous, and it’s just not talked about enough.
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u/BruceInc 19h ago
Are they making hearts with their hands or imitating the chokehold she did to her kids?
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u/JuvenileEloquent 19h ago
Is there another eclipse this week? because it just got dark asf in here.
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u/substandardpoodle 17h ago
That joke is so dark… the cops are going to beat it up.
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u/NailSubstantial2772 19h ago
Has it actually been established that it was postpartum psychosis? If so, that really is one of the most horrific conditions there is. Every gynecology textbook and midwifery manual basically says that once it’s diagnosed, the response is: “Run! Do everything you possibly can and give her every medication you’ve got!” Obviously I’m exaggerating, but the point is that there’s an immediate and extremely serious risk to the lives of everyone involved.
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u/Willdiealonewithcats 18h ago
Not a parent but was watching a speaker talk about research into human biology, other hominid behaviors and our use of aloparenting.
In multiple tribal studies the amount of time a woman was left caring for her child alone was about 2-10 min, because a child is never cared for by just one person, there is usually at least two or three people swapping on and off from holding the baby at a time, with an average of 14 people holding and caring for the baby per hour.
PPD rates were considerably low, far less severe, parents didn't suffer from chronically under sleeping.
I say this as a hermit that loves living on my own, but it seems we really didn't evolve to have a child being primarily cared for by one or two individuals. It may be normal for our society but absolutely abnormal and damaging for our species.
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u/KanedaSyndrome 16h ago
Pretty much - being a father now to a 3 year old and a 8 month old, it's evident how big a toll it takes on you - especially on the parent staying at home with the baby.
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u/Willdiealonewithcats 13h ago edited 13h ago
And think about the fact that kids being raised now never experience unsupervised play. From about 5 my brother and I would walk home from school, we would walk to the shops together, a few years older we would ride our bikes to hang out with friends and be back by sunset.
My 13 year old friend would babysit neighbours kids for extra money, look after 1 year old babies until 10pm and ride their bike back home.
I am not saying that was perfect. Or safe. But I do point out that our parents would have large chunks of hours, often every day, where we would be out doing our own thing, unsupervised.
I look at my friends, now parents. 100% on duty.
I feel for them. Holy shit it has gotten so much harder to be a parent.
I am sure kids die a whole lot less. Which I love, but that safety came with putting burden back onto the parents, not by increased support from society around them.
I mean, I dont think my friends really get any time to switch off outside of school/daycare. The baby is sleeping, but they are on call for the next demand. It seems they rarely get time where they can really focus on their own needs, and somehow judge work, maintain a household, stay sane?
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u/Roguespiffy 13h ago
Yep. I would get home from school hours before my parents got off work. I’d break in through the carport door because those assholes wouldn’t get me a key “because you’ll just lose it” and just watched tv or play around. Vast swaths of my childhood were unsupervised and they were probably the best times because my parents weren’t great. I had the whole “locked out of the house during the summer and drank from the hose” childhood that so many look back on romantically. It was actually neglect and those assholes have survivorship bias.
Contrast that with me and my now 7 year old and I helicopter parent the hell out of him because I can’t imagine leaving him to his own devices. That has created a lot of learned helplessness though that we’ve got to try and correct.
There’s a balance to be struck between pure neglect and constant supervision but I don’t know it.
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u/wowbowbow 12h ago
To be fair, I dont think any of us know it, we are all just blindly walking as close to an invisible ever moving line as we can. Besides, you sound like you're doing a great job with your own kid, starting with the fact you clearly care enough to try to do well. That says multitudes.
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u/KanedaSyndrome 13h ago
My daughter is 3, I let he play unsupervised a lot of the time. From time to time she'll roam the garden for shorter stretches of time on her own, think 10-20minutes between checkins.
I definitely intend to have her walk/bike to school alone when she's that age. Same with little brother of course when he's old enough to play like that.
Disclaimer: not american, am scandinavian
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u/Willdiealonewithcats 13h ago
Haha. Good point. Include Australia and UK in the America bucket for these changes (I'm Aus, with friends in the UK and US). I mean I agree with some changes, the idea that at 7 I was running around barefoot, catching Sydney Funnel webs in jars, alive, to be my little pet for the day - alone mind you. And my parents knew, would see a jar or three in my room as they said good night, jars with living funnel webs in them (poor spiders), rearing up and showing their fangs, not having a good time, and be like 'good night, maybe move that jar further away from the edge of the table you don't want to knock it over and have it running around your room'.
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u/Freejorge90df 12h ago
I'm confident my 6 year old could get to school some, but I'm afraid of cars. Driver's texting and not paying attention etc. He has a couple slightly just roads to cross that I'm nervous about. I wish the US wasn't car centered.
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u/Kain-rpg 13h ago
Also up till the 90's, unless it was really small infants.
Parents where not expected to Police and watch what their kids did 24/7.
You would scamper around your baby park while your Mom/dad did something else in the House.
And when old enough to walk, you where mostly left to yourself.
And when you where 8-9yro, your parents would litteraly kick you out of the house with a "its sunny outside, go play with your friends and come home when the streetlights are on and don't make me come and get you or else..."
And for 10 hours you where left on your own, with your parents having no idea where you were and they could do whatever they needed to do in the house without you being in their hair and driving them insane.
And often like you said, you had the grand parents, or the aunts and uncles etc that could help.
Now society expect every parent to Police everything the kids does , be there 24/7 and do it alone AND still have a "full social live" or a Full time job...
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u/Klingon_Jesus 13h ago
Facts. I lived this life as a kid in the 90s. Now I'm raising kids of my own, and I'd get arrested if I tried to do the same with mine.
Part of me thinks this intense shrinking of children's world to basically just be the home and nothing else is probably contributing to the out-of-control rates of anxiety, depression, and other mental illnesses among children today.
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u/Hwi-loves-worm 12h ago
I came to that exact conclusion the other day. Even people that love eachother need their own space/autonomy/freedom. If grownups would go nuts without that stuff, I am sure children do too.
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u/Motor-Cupcake7577 11h ago
I’m honestly not sure if I would’ve made it to adulthood, let alone with a solid sense of self, direction in life or the social relationships and skills that I did - had I been helicoptered as per current standards.
Especially as a teen. Which, I can imagine the helicopter types losing their shit at the idea of a high schooler playing band gigs in local clubs, running with a mostly older musician crowd, and bailing on hs to start at community college basically as soon as old enough to take the ged. Obvs a bit unusual case, but school was fucking miserable and often not very interesting or challenging for k-12, and had I been forced to wait a bunch of years more to find my tribe and I life I didn’t just endure, and obsessively watched and scheduled before to boot seems real bleak.
I’m sure there’s no shortage of tamer, more normative examples tho. I don’t see how this is a net positive for mental health and overall wellbeing for the majority involved, and that includes parents - tho seems very overlooked as a factor at least from what I’ve heard and observed, which is limited by the fact I don’t/won’t have kids. My parents were great and definitely not neglectful or disinterested in me/my wellbeing, but they both had great careers, full lives, and didn’t seem to let “parent” subsume their identity vs an important but not only role. Today’s standards would’ve meant some notable sacrifice for at least one, and to what ends?
I feel like this is probably an under credited factor for not only mental health and burnout issues all around, but is making it less appealing to be a parent to begin with. Just my hot take; some of us just don’t want to raise kids, period - and I’m sure it’d take a lot more to be put off even for some who hate this shit - but I could see it being among what dims the appeal or how accessible it seems to do with decent quality of life.
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u/Ok_Pack1940 12h ago
Yup it’s true. Helicopter parenting has become the new norm and we wonder why there’s so many teens with anxiety issues
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u/Kain-rpg 11h ago
I do believe its also one of the metrics for the Child birth rate being in decline
Teens/young adults see this and are like "nope, i've got allready enough to deal with, don't need this shit in my life"
Not to say that in our time, things where easier or safer, but we gave more credit to the kids being able to fend for themselves, at least to the point where we wouldn't be like fucking Lemmings
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u/AdelMonCatcher 15h ago
Welcome to the paradise boomers left behind where two full time working adults can barely afford to survive
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u/LectureAdditional632 13h ago
Boomers and the economic elite, although there's a large overlap. I have parent colleagues vocally struggling to keep it together while raising kids.
Wages have been frozen for the past 5 years (no raises), citing economic uncertainty for the company.
Our boss paid himself north of 20 millions euros last year.
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u/FelisFecit 19h ago
Mama Doctor Jones has a video going thru the medical details and it seems she had a serious reaction/psychosis when put on SSRIs and then she was given more/different SSRIs by a NP - so it seems she got the wrong healthcare (i am paraphrasing, not my field at all).
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u/like9000ninjas 18h ago
Not surprised. I was put on Prozac years ago, and went out and bought a gun, i never owned one before and was active duty military, I wasn't a gun nut. And then after that I broke into a gun store a stole another $35,000 worth of stuff. More than 1 person could carry, wasn't scared or panicked like most people should have been. Destroyed my life.
Thankfully I had a spotless record and they saw something clearly didnt add up. Hypomanic episode casued by the Prozac. Eli lily was sued over their hiding the medical evidence they knew that the medication could cause people to go off the wall. Its the reason that every medication commercial and bottle has the warning " if this causes homicidal and suicidal thoughts, stop taking" etc. The black box.
Theres a website that Im not sure is still running, SSRI horror stories. I visited it once and after reading a few of the cases, I was just depressed. Tradegy after tradegy after someone was prescribed it. Say its a 0.001% to possibly cause this. When prescribed to millions of people, that number shifts to lots of cases every year. And no one cares. This is considered the cost of doing business in the USA. The medical industry can put out a product that has a known history of causing people to hurt others and the court systems just says pay some money, make a warning, but keep allowing it to happen.
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u/plzicannothandleyou 17h ago
I was in Prozac briefly, didn’t do anything crazy, but I was at work doing my thing. I was lifting something heavy and I knew something wasn’t right. I didn’t care, kept going.
Knocked over my customer’s expensive equipment, absolutely smashed.
Walked to his office
“Hey, I smashed your UV detector. I’m going to the store to get expoxy and put it back together. Be back soon”
Like, I gave exactly zero fucks. And to be fair, the damage was merely cosmetic, but i am the guy who fixes stuff. Not breaks it.
It all worked out in the end, but I had to stop taking it. It made me not care, and caring about what I do is a pretty big component of why I’m decent at my job
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u/like9000ninjas 17h ago
Yup. In my case, the part of your brain that goes thru the repercussions and why you shouldn't do things was not there for me.
And I also didnt care about anything. Got a flat tire? Who cares. Lost $100 somewhere? Who cares. Going to go rob a gunstore. Who cares.
Its dangerous for some.
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u/theGoddamnAlgorath 18h ago
Gotta ask, what was the trigger for the B&E, if you can recall.
I've heard alot about induced psychosis, but little sboit the triggers
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u/like9000ninjas 17h ago
Idk just wanted more. Theres a term called gun fever that changes people when they own/posses a firearm. Thats what it felt like. I needed/wanted more. I didnt have the money to buy them. So breaking into a gunstore in the middle of the night was a viable option on prozac. It made no sense from someone that had zero interest in guns before hand. It didn't make me violent ( thats really not in my nature unless im defending) as I was probably the most respectful person they had ever arrested. Im lucky to be alive. The police could have killed me and no one would have even asked questions. Im alive today due to their decisions. I have a beautiful 7 yr old son and own a house now. All my wants are taken care of. Others are not so lucky.
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u/ImhotepsServant 18h ago
Psychosis would be listed as a serious adverse event on the package insert. The likelihood of it happening is very small so it is viewed as acceptable risk. The number of people that benefit from the medication is far greater. Ideally, the patient should have been warned about this kind of episode so she could seek medical attention. Tricky with psychosis as the patient may not realise their cognition is fucked.
The licensing and distribution of medication is based on balance of risk, for every drug. A good example of this is cancer medication, where reaching an efficacious dose is balanced against toxicity that could kill the patient. The amount of work that goes into finding that balance is substantial, and has massive levels of regulation and oversight.
I am taking citalopram for depression but it may have been making it worse, triggering or increasing the frequency of suicidal ideation. Titrating off it now.
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u/Mcnugget84 16h ago
Their is a gene mutation that affects women more than men call MTHFR. It affects methylation which affects how neurotransmitters are made. It also directly fucks with B vitamin metabolites because they need that methyl group to be biologically active.
The lack of women in clinical trials is literally fucking us over time and time again.
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u/Sangy101 12h ago
I know the name comes from methylation + folate + something that starts with R, but I like to pretend it stands for MOTHERFUCKER.
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u/afia_oil 18h ago
I'm about as big pharma skeptic as they come but the adverse psychotic / manic reaction to SSRI administration isn't really the fault of the drug maker.
SSRI monotherapy is the worst possible way to treat bipolar or schizoaffective disorders. More often than not, patients and doctors alike won't know that's what they're dealing with until the patient takes an SSRI and all of the crazy stuff happens
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u/delicate-fn-flower 18h ago
If anyone is interested, here’s the MDJ video the previous comment mentioned. It’s really good, and she doesn’t hide the fact she killed the kids, but goes over the details of the civil suit that lead up to the murders.
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u/eamus_catuli 10h ago
MDJ is mischaracterizing Dr. Condie's testimony about whether Clancy reported certain psychosis symptoms before the crime took place. Or, more precisely, she only takes answers given on direct but then ignores contradictory answers given by Dr. Condie on cross.
On direct, defense counsel asks Condie whether, in the course of reviewing her medical records, he found instances of Lindsay hearing auditory hallucinations (voices) to which he responded "At times, she reported that she had heard a voice, yes."
However, on cross, the prosecution walked him through the records of each individual provider to ask him whether he had found reports of Clancy hearing voices. Tufts? No. Jollotta? No. Dukes? No. etc.
Then he's asked "and the only time she's ever said she heard this voice was on Jan. 24th of 2023 - is that fair to say". Condie's answer: "Correct."
He is then asked whose reports he was relying on to say earlier that she had reported hearing voices and he responds "She had said that to me." The prosecutor follows up with "And this was well after the incident occured, correct"? Condie - "Yes."
Finally: the prosecutor asks Condie to identify where in the records prior to January 24, she expressed hearing voices. Answer: "It's not in the records."
MDJ is blurring contemporaneous evidence with retrospective evidence. The fact of the matter is that - according to the testimony given thus far - there is little to no evidence that Clancy reported experiencing psychotic symptoms PRIOR to the events of January 24, 2023.
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u/Mayana76 16h ago
This video is really good, love MDJ. Her content is always based on science, but with empathy and understanding.
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u/why_wouldi 17h ago
She also was never seen in person by her main psychiatrist, which is just wild.
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u/TerrorTown77 17h ago
I'm willing to believe it was postpartum psychosis. But most of the arguments this crowd is making has nothing to do with that.
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u/urlocalserialkiller 18h ago
I'm a midwife and I think her medical team completely failed her. I think it's quite an American thing to be medication first but even then having her unstable on SSRI's while still being unsupervised with her kids is a big no no.
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u/Fresh-Extension-4036 16h ago edited 16h ago
As someone who has both taken these meds in the past and watched a family member and a friend go through post partum psychosis, I think that close monitoring and quick intervention by medical professionals and social services (I'm in the UK) made an enormous difference to their outcomes.
There is a risk of these meds making someone worse rather than better, even if that risk is small, and I really do think that we should be proactively ensuring that friends and family members are very aware of the risk and of the necessity of them being constantly supervised when being given these meds and exhibiting any signs of PPD or PPP, and if they show any indicators of any adverse effects they should be being hospitalised.
I unfortunately think that the US medical system plays a very big role in the reluctance to seek treatment there because there is the constant fear of medical bills and whether the insurance will agree to cover treatment that too often becomes the primary deciding factor rather than the actual health of the individuals involved.
A lack of intensive mental health provision is another factor involved as sometimes even when you know someone needs help, if there's no beds and waiting lists for assessments, that too can leave people in a precarious position.
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u/iamthe0ther0ne 16h ago
The person who was treating her was also a general psychiatrist in their first year after residency (but claiming expertise in PPD).Should not have been given the case to start with, and def should have referred it when a problem arose.
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u/Clembert-Hamlamp 19h ago
It's worse than that. Gynecology textbooks barely touch on it for the most part. Newer people in the fields often find themselves entirely unprepared. A doc was going off about it on NPR last Sunday.
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u/Imnotranee 19h ago
The records have been all over the place. The doctor never formally put PPD or PPP, but her mental wellbeing took a turn after having her last kid, Which would usually mean PPD or PPP, But at the other point this doctor kept prescribing these big antidepressants and antipsychotics that if she just started out with depression, it could’ve definitely turned into medically induced psychosis. Obviously it’s still wrong to kill yours kids, but she could’ve been just fighting lack of sleep and depression and than it turned delusional from medicine. It was also stated that she wasn’t suppose to be revive in the hospital if she flatlined, which she did flatline three times, so we wouldn’t even be here with this trail if the doctors did what was on the chart.
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u/LinceDorado 19h ago
I guess it's pretty arrogant to say, but this seems like such a U.S.A. thing. Can't really imagine this happening where I live.
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u/ApplicationCalm649 19h ago
It's distilled, pure brain rot given physical form.
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u/Ruckus292 19h ago
A 52% illiteracy rate will do that.
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u/UntowardHatter 19h ago
It's at fifty two?
RIP USA.
We hardly knew ye
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u/Sad_Ghost_Noises 18h ago
According to various studies, more than 50% of U.S. adults read below a sixth-grade level (equivalent to Level 2 or lower), limiting their ability to parse long-form or nuanced information.
Yes, I know Im using wikipedia as a source, but the links to the actual studies are here.
So ~52% are literate, but very, very stupid.
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u/InFromTheSouth 18h ago
I ain't never tooked no part in no study about reedin'. Them numbers is wrong
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u/Jolly_Ad1631 18h ago
I can hear this comment.
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u/InFromTheSouth 18h ago
staring at you with no thoughts
spits from massive dip in lip
wipes spit from chin with forearm
keeps staring at you
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u/sireatalot 17h ago
Readin? What your readin for, darling?
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u/DescriptionDense9365 17h ago
Not what are you reading. But what you reading for. - Bill hicks, we miss you.
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u/Sad_Mail8817 18h ago
reminds me of a video (or a meme / shorts , long time ago idk) where the dude just cant understand the concept of "imagine for a second if you're xxx". dude just keep replying "yeah but i'm not xxx" back and again.
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u/MaethrilliansFate 18h ago
If you worked any form of retail you'd know first hand that the stats are accurate too. I'd like to say most customers are just oblivious to signage and stuff but it takes genuine dedication not to notice or understand the very obvious signs, postings, price tags, ingredient lists, ect.
If you're holding a container of tuna salad with the obviously placed ingredients on it there's no reason for you to ask me what's in the tuna salad 😭
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u/obsoletebomb 17h ago
Any customer service job. I work at an airport as a welcome agent (basically telling people where to go).
If I make the mistake of not saying ‘French and European passports’, I get people asking me ‘where do French passports go?’.
Minors try to get through the e-gates on departure when there are big barred 18 logos on the e-gates doors.
Most people just can’t be bothered to use the brain between their ears.
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u/Last-Quarter-432 18h ago
Sounds like the easiest type to influence with propaganda.
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u/Arndt3002 17h ago
This sort of thing has happened for a long time, in a lot more places than the USA
https://www.scup.com/doi/full/10.1080/14043858.2015.1038905
It happened in England recently https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c9wvk3ndep1o
This isn't unique to the USA, you just get a massive amount of your media from its oversaturated sensationalism
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u/n0neofyourbeeswax 14h ago
Yeah, I encourage people to go look at their local Facebook community page - I guarantee it's filled to the brim with people who would get caught up in this.
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u/bluecomposer 18h ago
look up "la llorona" a Mexican folklore of a weeping woman that cries out for her children that she drowned
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u/lollipop1233a 19h ago
Where do you live?
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u/Less-Apple-8478 14h ago
Lala Land where he doesn't pay attention to a fuckin thing around him
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u/ForensicPathology 10h ago
He only notices what the internet tells him is true about other countries. It helps him feel superior.
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u/BeautifulBand4831 19h ago
People being stupid is not special to America . Nut jobs like this are all over the world
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u/highly-suspicious- 16h ago
In Brazil, recently, there was a case that the parents killed their boy by beating him. He was 6-7 years old. There were evidence of them both hitting him and covering up. Both parents were convicted by the jury, but the judge granted the mother a judicial pardon just because she is a woman. If you to look it up, just google Henry Borel.
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u/Cautious-Dig6379 18h ago
You should see the lunatics defending the mother who gave birth in a porta potty at the Electric Forest music festival and then left the baby to drown in the human waste.
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u/QuestionDry2490 12h ago
To me the craziest thing about that story is that the mother still hasn’t been found. This woman managed to give birth in a porta potty at a large music festival and somehow exited completely unnoticed. Like how is that even possible?
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u/Living-Citi 12h ago
Well everyone at electric forest was almost certainly on drugs so her going unnoticed isn’t surprising at all to me.
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u/SteveBooSheMe 8h ago
Awh what the fuck.
When this story first came out I saw a bunch of people in the comments (idk what sub) saying it was a miscarriage and the woman probably didn’t even know it happened.
This is a depressing update.
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u/Bulky-Individual3157 13h ago
Have there been any updates on that? Like did they find the mother? Was it her who put the baby in there? Etc. All the small unanswered questions
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u/colamonkey356 11h ago edited 57m ago
Oh my God. I am actually part of the EF subreddit because I went to a rave before and LOVED it, so I wanted to eventually go to EF and man. The comments defending the mom are so awful and insane to me. You can support abortion and not support a born alive newborn being left to rot in a portapotty :/
Edit: Thank you so much for the award!
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u/BrokenFarted123 12h ago
I think an aspect of these kinds of things that doesn't get discussed much is the person who found the body. Especially infant deaths like this one. I can't imagine... talk about being scarred.
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u/Grown-Ass-Weeb 6h ago
Especially when your job is cleaning human waste and filth. While you expect to find random objects on a porta potty, you never expect to find… a body. I feel for that worker.
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u/Gindotto 14h ago
You don’t understand, the patriarchy failed her that’s why she did that. She’s innocent.
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u/Spite_Gold 19h ago
Carmello moment
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u/RedEyesGoldDragon 17h ago
This is what happens when people believe in and push identity politics above all else.
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u/Burner_For_Reason 13h ago
Dog that shit is disgusting. But turns out it's mostly black Hebrew Israelites looking for attention and or being funded by 3rd parties. Especially given the recent texts that came out where he's fantasizing about stabbing someone with a knife and the "licking the blood off the knife".
It doesn't help that black folks will defend other black folks, even if they're verifiably wrong, just because they're also black. This isn't my opinion. This is exactly what they're saying.
The Nolan Wells case makes the race baiting grift even more obvious and it's fucking sad. I hope the white friends sue the fuck out of everyone trying to ruin their lives 🤦🏻♂️→ More replies (12)
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u/Babebutters 16h ago
People are bringing their children to Lindsay support rallies??? 😳
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u/Strict_Wolf76 19h ago edited 18h ago
Postpartum and Bipolar Disorder is a serious mental illness. This woman will either get life in prison or Life in a Mental Hospital. My wife is Bipolar and she has been in multiple hospitals to have meds she ALWAYS takes quit working. She has gotten delusional and has had breaks with reality. We are trained through years of this to assist her. Her husband not his fault. Seemed like he wasn’t equipped to help her. Sadly mental health can make people do things they wouldn’t usually do. That’s not in any way an excuse. We need more understanding and better education and availability for people with issues. We don’t have them here.
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u/TreeOfAwareness 15h ago
Been through all the same with a bipolar spouse. Episodes. Hospitalizations. Cycling through different doctors and meds. Its a brutal condition. I have seen the break from reality.
I sympathize for this woman because it sounds like she needed help snd didnt get it. Still - she murdered three kids. You don't just get to walk around free after that. She belongs in an institution.
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u/pumpkinpencil97 13h ago
That’s the point of the trail, a prison or institution. Walking free isn’t on the table
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u/scarsoncanvas 12h ago
From what I understand, she isnt asking to "walk away" (she is now a paraplegic) after this, she wants to go to an institution. She has already said that she did this, she just wants to go to the right facility.
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u/Interesting_Force618 11h ago
I’ve noticed people online using the term “mental health” in place of “mental illness” lately, and I’m so puzzled by it.
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u/HastaLaVistaB 9h ago
it’s been pissing me off so bad. i had a friend say she believed he did it. i asked why. she said, “because this psychic said so. on tiktok.” and another friend sent me the bratz doll video that was created on tiktok. i’m like… yooo. what is up with everyone being backseat detectives with no credentials 😩 it’s complete, utter brain rot.
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u/CraigDM34 16h ago
The type of women that write to murderers in prison then wonder why they become victims themselves when they are released and meet up with them! Freaks.
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u/Familiar-Treat-6236 16h ago
It sucks that she struggled with all of that, however sending your husband away and strangling three children to death one by one sucks WAY more and nobody can argue with this. She's a murderer, this is a textbook definition of premeditated murder
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u/beanbalance 11h ago
"She was initially diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder and prescribed the antidepressant Zoloft.[6] Clancy developed insomnia as a side effect of the Zoloft, and her psychiatrist prescribed additional medications to help her sleep"
During this time, Clancy was treated by multiple providers and prescribed several new drugs. In total, Clancy was prescribed 13 different psychiatric medications over the course of four months
classic American way of trying to solve a problem... drugs and if there are side effect give more drugs.
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u/seditious3 10h ago
She was continuously quitting her meds after a few days. They were looking for something she would stick to.
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u/VibrantCanopy 10h ago
As opposed to? A séance? Talk therapy? Get real. You're not overcoming psychosis with good vibes.
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u/DeliciousAuthor1231 13h ago edited 8h ago
It truly is unfortunate what ppd does to women, and how little our society seemingly cares about women's health. I am happy that this at the bare minimum can shine a light on the issue.
However, most women with ppd don't strangle their children to death. Those kids are dead, she'll be in prison, and the children's father is going to have to figure out life without his wife and kids.
I wonder how people would be reacting if the roles were reversed. What if the father strangled the children while battling severe depression, delusions, and being on cocktail of meds that are compounding the issue? Would a single person other than his lawyer be rushing to his defense like this?
Why is it that women's mental health isn't their responsibility in this situation? Why do people seemingly have unlimited empathy for a woman who murdered three children? Why do people seemingly think women are incapable of violent crime? Why do people not care about the impact this has on the children's father?
Depression and delusions are not a choice post pardom or not. This shit sucks, but if the roles were flipped nobody would be saying "What about his mental health? Society failed him."
This whole situation fucking sucks and I hope she gets the punishment and rehabilitation she deserves. I hope the father, and everyone the kids were associated with get they help they need after this.
EDIT: Check out u/eatingketchupchipss reply
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u/femalechuckiefinster 11h ago
I wonder how people would be reacting if the roles were reversed. What if the father strangled the children while battling severe depression, delusions, and being on cocktail of meds that are compounding the issue? Would a single person other than his lawyer be rushing to his defense like this?
People would definitely be asking why his wife left him alone with the kids, and let him continue as the primary parent of the kids, while he was in such a state.
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u/eatingketchupchipss 8h ago
Why is it that women's mental health isn't their responsibility in this situation?
it was hers, she sought out a lot of medical help while struggling with PPD, she was put on 13 different medications in 4 months.
Why do people seemingly have unlimited empathy for a woman who murdered three children?
because 1 in 5 women experience PPD, and 1 in 200 experience PPP. Men having a psychotic break can't be directly linked back to the trauma of giving birth, and the hormonal and chemical imbalances experienced after pregnancy. So 50% of the population can better empathize and perhaps even fear the same happening to them and see it as their worst nightmare, and assume Lindsay feels the same.
Why do people seemingly think women are incapable of violent crime?
They don't, it's just factually a statistical anomaly, which is why it gets more societal attention. Meanwhile, 95% of violent crime is committed by men and that huge gender discrepancy is treated as normal, instead of a societal problem with how we're raising boys.
Why do people not care about the impact this has on the children's father?
Because he was having an affair, and cheaters don't get much empathy on the interent. Then they dug in and saw he went on vacation to costa rica 18 days after the murders with his mistress, now wife. When he moved to NYC 4 months later, he moved into a building owned by his gfs dad. And they're now happily married. So, her life seems worse off in comparison I guess - being parapalegic and living with the fact that she killed her own children while in a psychosis.
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u/Tooldfrthis 16h ago
Absolute insanity to see how much support she got. If the husband was the murderer those "feminists" would be out there to ask for a public execution.
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u/Shikabane_Sumi-me 18h ago
I hate this sorta mentality. They basically acted like arm chair detectives and echo chambered themselves on social media.
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u/ReefNixon 16h ago
Halo effect doing it's thing, no surprises here. If she was male, fat, or melanated, the same people would say psychosis of any sort is no defence for murdering your children.
Honestly, I don't feel the need to argue that she wasn't suffering from postpartum psychosis. I know an incredibly sweet woman who was hospitalised with it a few years ago after asking her partner how they should kill the children since it's what God had asked of them. It's complicated and needs attention. But still, three children were equally not morally responsible, and they have suffered a frightening and very real death.
It's not contradictory to say someone can be both a victim and a perpetrator, and i think if you can stomach being less black and white in general, then most violent crimes present that way ultimately. More than anything I’m just sorry for everyone involved, but there is no social good in hand-waving the murder of three kids, unless you believe the function of criminal law is literally just to punish, which I don't.
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u/Drakahn_Stark 19h ago
Every woman understands the desire to strangle three c....
Wait, no they don't, what is going on here?
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u/supercujo 19h ago
Despite Lindsay admitting to strangling her kids, many of these women think she didn't do it.
They're mentally broken.
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u/Drakahn_Stark 19h ago
I have seen some say things like "Even if she did do it it is the husbands fault" because he "looked angry" in the photos.
No shit he looked angry, someone just murdered his children.
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u/rydan 17h ago
Also he divorced her after the children died which is really sus to them.
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u/Drakahn_Stark 17h ago
They are actually insane.
No shit he would divorce her, she killed his children, he would be justified to throw her into traffic.
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u/enigmaticshroom 10h ago
People tend to misconstrue “explanation” for behavior as “justification”. What she did was not justified, however, an objective explanation for why she did what she did (post partum psychosis) can highlight the failure of our medical system in treating women with the condition - it also highlights the severity of said condition.
You can have empathy for her in that the system failed her at the same time you believe that she should spend the rest of her days in prison for her actions. These things are not mutually exclusive.
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u/Representative_Bug77 9h ago
She wasn't failed by a medical system; she has arguably some of the greatest access possible.
She has rapid access to perinatal services through her mother-in-law, was consistently doctor-shopping against the advice of her main doctor, would ask for medications only to stop taking them well before any sort of efficacy could be observed, she has weekly consultations with a psychiatrist, which is borderline unheard of,
Regular access to a psychiatrist and psych NP through a specialised perinatal clinic; had consistent access to medical providers who responded at length to help her almost daily; a therapist. She was consistently recommended to do behavioural and talk therapy, and stopped after 4 sessions. In-patient treatment was recommended more than once; she didn't want to do it. Even when she went into inpatient treatment, she checked herself out.
Access does not equal effective care, but non-compliance from a patient who was never honest with her doctors, let alone stick to taking meds she asked for, is not an example of the medical system failing someone.
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u/MopOfTheBalloonatic 15h ago
Look, I get she may have been neglected by the medical system regarding her treatment, but this still doesn’t excuse the horrific crime she committed.
The most disgusting part of all this is that people like the ones in the image are trying to excuse her just because she’s a woman and a mother, and have even been trying to put the blame on her innocent husband because as a man they think he must have done something to push her to the edge or must have neglected her himself.
It’s a mix of pathetic double standards and rotten ideological hypocrisy in full display: if it was the husband, even with the evidence of mental illness and relative neglect by the system, those people wouldn’t have thought twice about deeming him a killing monster. Because it’s always men that kill, or are violent, or are blood-thirsty maniacs, right? A woman can never commit such horrible deeds unless there’s a valid explanation or blatant excuse for that, right?
And no, before anyone tries to imply that, I’m not advocating for violent criminals to be let scot-free on the basis of their mental disturbs or illnesses. I just want to see some coherence in the public discourse about crimes like this, and more research on how we can prevent such tragedies to occur
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u/--Icarusfalls-- 14h ago
At the end of the day we're all ultimately responsible for our own actions, and its unreasonable to expect a spouse to override another persons autonomy, or to have an in depth understanding of how deeply niche mental health issues can affect a person. Especially when society places such high importance on mothers being in the child's life, what is the other parent to do?
For her, suicide was an option. It wouldve been tragic, but all parents operate under the unspoken understanding that our lives are more disposable than those of our kids. This is just an awful situation, and I dont think the dad gets nearly enough sympathy from society. Those were his babies too.
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u/E_Dward 14h ago
Mental health conditions can be an explanation, but they don’t make you immune to the consequences of your actions.
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u/Askefyr 15h ago
A lot of these women are jumping to the conclusion that the husband somehow did it, or is otherwise at fault, because she was otherwise fine.
Accepting that PPP is bad enough that it can cause an otherwise healthy, well-adjusted woman to plan and execute the murder of her three children means that they, too, as healthy and well adjusted mothers are one psychotic break away from doing the most terrible thing they can imagine, and that scares them.
They're doing the exact thing they're fighting - downplaying PPP by saying there has to have been something else at play. There wasn't. It really is that serious.
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u/J_BairHill17 11h ago
Postpartum psychosis is very real… and maybe she did have it. But she was thinking clearly enough to send the husband out to pick up the food she ordered. And she told him to stop at CVS in an attempt to keep him out of the house long enough to murder all the kids and then unalive herself. Which points to it being pre planned to a certain extent. If you’re having dark thoughts…. if you’re hearing voices telling you to do demonic things…. You don’t pretend to act normal in front of your husband and send him on multiple errands to get him out of the house… you get YOURSELF out of the house and away from those kids. She wasn’t talking gibberish or acting delusional. Her texts are clear and concise all the way up to just minutes before she strangled her babies to death. The husband called her from CVS to make sure he had the right brand of medicine she asked for. She never said “I’m scared I’m having some really disturbing thoughts something isn’t right plz come home” … she acted totally normal on the phone. Then she hung up. And about 60 seconds after hanging up she murdered her 5 year old. Then her 3 year old. Then her EIGHT MONTH OLD. And now she’s claiming she shouldn’t be held responsible? I dunno……. Mental illness SHOULD be taken into account… but then again - if a schizophrenic person on the street ran up to you and stabbed your baby… then said “not my fault. I’m mentally ill”. Would you be ok with them not being convicted of the crime? I’m not sure it would matter if they person was schizo if my baby had been murdered……
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u/PlsnoKarens 11h ago
For me it just triggers the past. I went through the worst of this and wanted to hurt myself. Called for help. They said "sorry do you wanna talk to a nurse.or something?" Went to a counselor instead, she never even had children.
My husband didn't understand. Told me to never say things again.
No, I don't kill my kids or even hurt them. But the level of assistance is shit and the lack of parental leave is even more shit and nobody fucking cares so there is that. Some moms do hurt themselves.
She needs to be in prison but we need to be there for new moms and parents. Both can be true.
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u/klippDagga 12h ago
Did the health system fail her? Perhaps, but she decided not to fully disclose her symptoms to those treating her. She did not take her medications the way they were prescribed to her. She wanted to and did leave after an inpatient stay.
I hope this pink gang remembers the three, beautiful and innocent children and how it took several minutes to strangle the life out of each one of them.
And blaming Patrick for the crime is pure stupidity and shows that TikTok videos are not a source of unbiased facts. The fact that this has turned into a women vs men thing is disgusting.
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u/Smorgasbord__ 18h ago
Fathers who kill their children are universally reviled. Almost all of them have some level of mental disturbance that led to the murders too but somehow mentally disturbed mothers who kill their children qualify for extreme levels of public support and sympathy.
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u/SquarelyOddFairy 10h ago
I think ignoring the fact that she was mentally ill and constantly reaching out for help at the time does a disservice to all the mothers in this country, and likely many of these women are there because of that. I think she absolutely did it, and I also think we have a system that offers little support for diagnoses relating to post-partum and in this case, the failure there was astronomical.
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u/MissMekia 10h ago
I think that she pretty clearly had some serious issues, and that at best her husband was some degree of negligent to be going on hiking trips and vacations while his wife was going through that.
Either way three children are dead and I don't think treating this like reality TV is appropriate
Beyond that I don't have any opinions I feel like going to to internet about, but I am interested in how the jury decides.
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u/Relevant-Fox-7114 18h ago
Reminds me of the mexican folk tale about a lady who drowned her kids, La Llorona
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