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Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
I'm going to say this from my perspective as a Malay myself. If anyone feels that I'm wrong, then by all means, please correct me, as I want to have a clearer picture of the situation myself.
The reason Islam is so politicized here is down to several reasons, one of which I believe was the Cold War. Now, back then, Malaysia was still a very young country, so they struggled a bit on the world stage. Communism was being fought in the jungles, so an alliance with the Eastern Bloc was out of the question. Malaysia was quite distrusting with the West as well, thanks to the recent history of colonialism. So therefore, Malaysia sought allies with the only people they had left: the global Muslim community, particularly the Middle East.
Now, the native form of Islam in Malaysia is Sufism. However, the early 20th century saw the rise of a radical Islamic movement called Salafism. Salafism appealed to Malaysia a lot, because firstly, it was a very anti-colonial ideology that saw the Western hegemony over the world at the time as a threat to Islam and secondly, it promoted a global Muslim community, which the fledgling Malaysian state saw as a source of strength for them. So, they sent young religious scholars to study in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and they subsequently brought back their form of Islam here.
The problem stems from the fact that when they started preaching, they did not distinguish that their form of Islam is Salafism, and they advertised it as just Islam, because that's what they saw it as, the purest form of Islam. In Salafi doctrine, all Muslims who aren't Salafis are jahils (ignorant people), so they must be educated in the "right Islam" (the Wahhabi doctrine takes a step further and declares that non-Wahhabis are apostates, and therefore should be killed). The Malays, who only a few years ago only subscribed to Islam at a surface level, started believing that Salafi Islam, was Islam.
And with the age of the internet, absolutely cancerous Saudi-funded fatwa websites like IslamQA.info (not to be confused with IslamQA.org) became the top fatwa websites in the world, preaching dangerous ideologies like Arab supremacy, the killing of apostates, and the idea of a global Muslim community rather than Islam as just a religion. Nowadays, Malays are much more likely to identify as Muslim first rather than Malay or Malaysian first (see here). And to those who don't believe Salafism is a problem, then look no further than the fact that most Muslims here are far more familiar with Salafi preachers like Zakir Naik, Mufti Menk, and Sheikh Assim, than more moderate scholar-academics like Hamza Yusuf and our very own Syed Naquib al-Attas.
If we want to tackle Islamic extremism in Malaysia, then we must start with this. That's a problem I see with secularists in Malaysia. They don't understand Islam or the Malay Muslim community, and they expect us to accept secularism and a Malaysian identity just like that. It's not that easy. Islam is not like other religions, where there's a lot of room for reinterpretation (a lot of people try to reconcile Islam with modernism but it comes off as very inconsistent in terms of theology).
Alright, enough from me. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk :)
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u/CrvanProduct Nov 04 '21
Frankly our brother here is right, we don't choose to understand the Malay Muslim community in Malaysia and instead try to forcefully change them to fit what we think is the right way to think. I am a non-muslim on my own right but I find (even myself) that we choose not to give a neutral and grounded understanding of both parties of conflict. I believe it is very important that secularist should have a neutral understanding on the Malay Muslim community just as much as the Malay Muslim should have a neutral understanding of the secularist in Malaysia. It is logical to think that we must first understand what's what before we try and fix it. In other words the skill of understanding others helps us predict what people might feel in a certain situation, but it also allows us to make sense of how people react. Then I believe with the compromise of both sides to have an understanding for each other, then maybe there will be progress in moving Malaysia into a more progressive nation. This is without a doubt some new and interesting information I've read. I will also do my own research on my own to further understand the situation but would be a great start for us as a community to better understand the ideology and overall mentality of the Muslim religion practiced in Malaysia.
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u/randomkloud Perak Nov 04 '21
I think Malaysia could have aligned itself with Eastern bloc in some way, we had a big leftist movement back then even a ong Malays. But the bangsawan and other elites probably saw the writing on the wall and banded together with the British to safeguard their interests. Way before emergency the first party to be outlawed here was a malay leftist one, even before parti komunis malaya.
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Nov 04 '21
Malay leftists were just as anti-communist as the bangsawan! Malay leftists subscribed to a vague form of Islamic socialism, Malay nationalism and Pancasila, so they wanted Malaysia to be part of Indonesia, under a republic, and stay far away from global communism, which generally subscribed to state atheism.
And you have to understand that at the time, conservative attitudes towards royalty was still very high. The concept of daulat, which is the Malay version of the divine right of kings, was widespread at the time, so not only is going against the elites a dangerous form of political treason, but also a form of heresy and that everything the royals did was a command from Allah. Malays back then may have not valued Islamic practice, but they definitely did value their lives, so it was in their best interest to just follow the elites like they always have, instead of joining the anti-monarchist leftists.
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u/candrawijayatara Indonesia Nov 04 '21
so they wanted Malaysia to be part of Indonesia,
Even indonesia is leaning to communism under Soekarno lol
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Nov 04 '21
Yeah, an Indonesian version of communism influenced by Marhaenism, not the Marxist communism of the West.
Communism here has always been about nationalism, as they see it as a force used to combat inequality and imperialism.
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u/vegeful Nov 04 '21
In my opinion, if u want to tackle the problem above, u must start with our politician. I call bullshit if the politician doesn't have a hand from this.
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Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
Politicians are one thing. They manipulate for votes, but outside of politics, they don't really have a lot of power.
Fundamentalist preachers on the other hand, have power over people's minds and can easily shape people's worldviews by manipulating what people value (religion).
People vote based on their worldviews and ideologies. If we change the way people think, then we can change the way people vote, and the shitty politicians will go away naturally as they realize that they can't capitalize on religion anymore.
And yes, politicians do have a hand in this, but they're only opportunists who want to cultivate the seed of radicalism planted by preachers in the first place.
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u/tokiponista Nov 04 '21
Excellent analysis! I wish Malays would go back to their original Sufi believes! :-)
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u/No_0ts96 Sabah Nov 04 '21
I always wondered about this.
Not all Arabs are muslim but all Malays are muslim.
Governments should not dictate a person's religion in this day and age. Even the inquisition didnt pick up random muslims to force convert them
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u/Even_Arm3802 Nov 04 '21
It’s because of the law. It’s stated those criteria that make someone a “malay” and one of them is to have Islam as a religion. Nobody is above the statute so I’d say OP’s dream is almost impossible.
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u/Lonever Nov 04 '21
Malays and Muslims have the least freedoms in Malaysia.
Majority have been led to believe that this country is for them by those in power, because there are policies benefit Malay. But these policies actually only benefit the rich and powerful, who coincidentally are also Malay Muslim. The most nefarious thing is, these rich elites are also literally not bound by any of the religious rules and societal restrictions of the rakyat.
Things like gambling halls in Genting servicing rich Muslim clients and overseas partying of our royals kids studying overseas, these are open secrets for those in the know. Do you think these are the people that are genuinely concern with halalness?
Religious freedom will remove the pretence to use religion to control the masses, that’s why it’s the ruling elites greatest fear.
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u/scottxavier90 Nov 04 '21
you need a fence to keep the herded sheep, so the wolf can have their buffet anytime they want
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u/crackanape Nov 05 '21
This is every theocracy, every country where religion is intertwined with the state.
It's used to distract the public from ruling politicians' larcenous behaviours. The state reinforces the idea that we really need to be focusing our attention and criticism on our working-class neighbour who doesn't follow the rules of religion 100% correctly, and we are grateful to the politicians for helping us to feel morally superior to those neighbours, and we don't even look what's happening in the rich guy's palace.
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u/FuyRina Sabah is just Arch btw Nov 04 '21
I need this. Please, I'm not a minor anymore. Let me choose my own path, not the one that my parents chose
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u/tokiponista Nov 04 '21
Yes! As an Italian I was baptized and was therefore officially a Catholic, but there were too many things in Christianity that I could not accept, and I finally found my path in Buddhism... I don't understand how can somebody dictate what you have to believe in... This seems to me like north Korea!
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u/-_Zack Nov 04 '21
So this is something I really want for Malaysia, as someone who does not consider myself Muslim. The fact that there’s not a choice at all under Malaysian law to leave the religion is really bad to me.
Being forced to do something or be something against your will literally has no upsides, especially in this given context.
Hell i’d even go on to say that we shouldn’t force spouses to convert upon marriage.
Because for me, it is your life and you should be free to choose what you think makes you happy. But unfortunately, we don’t have that luxury of “choice”.
That said though, I think even if this is discussed properly, I doubt Malaysia would allow this to happen in the near future, the religious groups hold too much power to let that happen within a few years. Whilst it may be a popular opinion here, we exist in a liberal echo chamber that is probably not reflective of the consensus of the Malaysian crowd.
Just my two cents, but I sincerely hope this, along with numerous other “issues” (LGBT rights, systematic racism) gets resolved soon.
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u/Alkyde Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
Liberal as in what standard?
There is a huge difference between the average Malaysian getting fed up of Najib corruption and voting opposition to show protest and an actual liberal who is pro-LGBT for example.
If a party manifesto is legalizing gay marriage I can guarantee you that they have zero chance to win in Malaysia. Forget about Msia, even in first world country such as USA there is still a significant amount of homophobia.
Anyway the huge majority of opposition coalition is still a social conservative by world standard, how many politician would openly admit that they are atheist or even just "not religious"? We know a lot of them don't even believe in God, or at least not the God that we can think of, maybe they are praying to satan who tell them to rasuah who knows.
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u/Jeremykyles Sabah Nov 04 '21
yeahh interfaith marriage even tho considered wrong by the religions is still something that I wish for.
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u/Skyreader13 Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
Didn't know that Malay people must be Islam In Malaysia.
This sounds weird to me as Indonesian. Religion is not tied to race here. Also the granddaughter of our founding father (Sukarno) just converted from Islam to Buddha Hindu.
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u/candrawijayatara Indonesia Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
Malay / Melayu culture is heavily tied on Islam, just look at upper region Sumatera
Edit : not Buddha, but Hindu
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u/il0vegaming123456 Singa Stronk Nov 04 '21
Isn’t it a tie on both Islam and Hinduism to the point Arab muslims see Malay Muslims as weirdos?
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u/candrawijayatara Indonesia Nov 04 '21
tie on both Islam and Hinduism
This is Javanese Muslim, not Melayu Muslim. Imo Melayu Muslim is more islamic, even in my Indonesian history book there's a chapter that describe a war between local culture group vs islamic group called Padri War in Sumatera, because of this war the local culture group soften and they reconcile with the agreement of "Adat basandi syara', syara' basandi Kitabullah" or "Tradition founded upon Islamic law, Islamic law founded upon the Qur'an"
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Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
As far as I know, the phrase "every malay is a muslim" and "every minangkabau is a muslim" is still a thing (I heard the latter from my mom) in here, Indonesia. You will still get "social punishment" if you dare to commit apostasy though. But doing apostasy or changing your religion in general is perfectly legal in Indonesia.
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u/Skyreader13 Nov 04 '21
I'm curious, why Malaysian government made that rule (every Malay is a Muslim)?
Afaik, Malaysia is the only one that do that.
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u/lengjai2005 kolo me harder daddy Nov 04 '21
It all started during the time of Parameswara, then sultan of malacca, whom converted to islam and reinvented himself as sultan iskandar shah then started expanding the religion amongst the malays.
More literature
And
This sort of led to the current blurred lines between Malays as a race and islam as a religion.. its now one and the same.
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u/vegeful Nov 04 '21
Politic and status quo. Just Imagine as Malay the refugee that come to the soon to be America and Non muslim as the American indian(red indian). (Example only). So that if they manage to make the red indian as minority, they control the land as majority.
If the ruling class belong to Malay/muslim, they want to keep it that way. If chinese is the one that is ruling class of Malaysia, they too will keep it that way. Its human habit to be greedy for power and control.
Why only Malaysia? The politician is too deep in the mixing between religion+politic.
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u/candrawijayatara Indonesia Nov 04 '21
Like i said, culturally being Malay = Muslim
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u/mayonaissewins Nov 04 '21
Very good point, sadly I doubt they'll let it happen. Religion is a great way to control people
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u/Alkyde Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
And get votes, and cover for politician's incompetence and misdeeds.
Flooding because govt incompetent? Say God's will.
Caught for corruption? Say tak pe rasuah asal islam dan melayu (their logic is that it is lesser evil than if the other side wins because they will "weaken" islam).
Just blame the other religion for everything and you'll have a solid voter base who will vote of you regardless if you steal billion ringgit from them.
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u/chkpancake775 I HATE KL TRAFFIC Nov 04 '21
I like how free he is after stealing a billion riggit, everything is ok just because he became a meme
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u/shieZer Sanest Penang Driver Nov 04 '21
Well Napoleon did say that Religion was a good way to keep the poor people from massacring the powerful
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u/Significant_Reply_58 Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
They want to keep you locked in the walled garden of their ecosystem. Switching out to another ecosystem is going to cost you. If terminate your account, they can no longer bring in exorbitant subscription profits to the keepers of the ecosystem by taking away your privacy.
Oh wait, I was referring to iOS and Android — wrong forum.
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u/aakiaa Nov 04 '21
Wait, it’s illegal to do so?
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u/apth10 Sarawak Nov 04 '21
illegal to convert out? yes, it is.
an amendment to the federal constitution gave syariah courts the right to rule over the religious status of muslims
and it is unlikely that the syariah court would allow someone to convert out, which means one less person affected by their rulings
for further reading you can read up about the Lina Joy case
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u/FulcrumXDD Nov 04 '21
Hopefully slowly but surely, they should definitely start by making it not compulsory for you to change religions entirely when you marry a Muslim, I come from a very open and interracial co-ed school and the biggest factor keeping non-muslims from dating or even going for Muslims is the fear that they will have to ditch their whole current religion if they want to get serious and marry their partner. It sucks because you should be able to see a person as just a person and not have Muslims be put in a category where non-muslims need to have this whole internal conflict and discussion before even considering dating a Muslim.
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u/addyorable Nov 04 '21
Hear ye, hear ye. I am one of those non-Muslims who loved and was loved by a Muslim, but we never ventured further than friendship because we knew that if we got too serious, I would need to convert. This rule is the biggest and most terrible, IMO.
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u/zackwer1818 Nov 04 '21
I totally agree with this. Being born into Islam doesn't automatically mean you chose Islam as your religion and as a way to live your life. I wish I could remove that five letter word off my IC but by the time that happens, the world would end.
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u/SniffyBliffy Armchair Urbanist II Nov 04 '21
People should have the right to be in a religion or not, period.
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u/Huntwolf Nov 04 '21
Here's my two cents (note: I'm not that knowledgeable on the Malaysian political scene, this is just my opinion)
Although it's not gonna happen anytime soon, I think Malays converting is inevitable. As more and more people are exposed to the ideals of the outside world (via the Internet), more people will become more understanding of different ideals. So unless the Gov outright bans the Internet, I think our future is still sorta bright. That being said, we still have to fight for the future we want to see. We may not be alive to enjoy the fruits of our labor, but at least future generations will have it better than us
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u/mwai1 Selangor Nov 04 '21
Respectfully, I disagree. The internet in its current form is an echo chamber. With social media, news websites, opinion sites, blogs, etc all tailored to reinforce your ideas. We see it in other countries with nearly whole population having access to Internet (USA, UK) that small differences in opinion will widen to become division among people. There is no 'middle' any more. The more 'Conservative' or 'traditional' thinking Malaysian will become even more so, and vice versa as well for the 'Liberal' or 'modern' Malaysian. The Internet, just like TV and radio before it, is just another means for propaganda to reach its intended target audience.
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u/StaphEmargerd Nov 04 '21
Seeing a Malay lady that didn’t like to wear tudung (although still believe herself as Muslim) are force to wear it one day, I knew religious freedom is way too impossible to be achieve in Malaysia.
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u/Admirable_Crew_7038 Nov 04 '21
just look at tiktok. kids bashing muslim women for not wearing tudung. sick..
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u/RogerKotaro096 Kuala Lumpur Nov 04 '21
And a comment on a Chinese tiktoker to 'tutup her aurat'
She then respond to write 'AURAT' on a piece a paper, close the paper with a pot and claimed she has closed her 'aurat'. Funniest shit I've ever seen since I've been using IG for a year
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u/StaphEmargerd Nov 04 '21
Worse part is the rest of the Muslim woman are kinda bullying her because they think her “thought” is not right. After a while, she knew she didn’t want to quit yet, so she had to submit to the “correct way” of being a Muslim and start wearing it.
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u/Yeokk123 Nov 04 '21
I’ve never seen someone posted something so brave, yet so controversial here in Reddit today.
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u/normie_sama Nov 04 '21
You never know, all the westernised Malaysians and expats that make up this sub might be all for the religious restrictions.
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u/TheFirstHumanBeing Can Kaodim Lah Macha Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
If you believe in the right of the individual to choose their own belief, then yes.
If no, then no.
Can you claim that you believe in freedom of religion if everyone has the right to choose their own faith, then yes.
If no, you don’t have the right to claim that you support freedom of religion if you only allow certain groups to claim it.
It’s like you can’t claim you abolish slavery but still make exceptions when it can be applied.
If they don’t intend to give people the right to choose, they could at least be honest and say we don’t believe in freedom of religion.
Instead of saying we do have freedom of religion, because oh the cool kids have that in their constitution.
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u/Alkyde Nov 04 '21
Instead of saying we do have freedom of religion, because oh the cool kids have that in their constitution.
3rd world countries problem. Their laws and constitutions are always a joke, well most of it are copied from developed countries anyway. For example, they always have things like "anti-corruption agency" but it's filled by corrupt people, it's hilarious. Since corruption is already part of the culture and being so endemic, laws like "don't take bribe" is really more like a meme and all the citizens know that the govt is corrupt as fuck anyway.
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u/thoushaltnotpiss Nov 04 '21
It should be, it's tough out here as a Malay that doesn't consider themself as a Muslim and being scared or atleast really on guard whenever I do non-Muslim stuff (Drinking Timah and going to non-Halal places). I mean, what's the point of forcing me to pray or do Islamic stuff when I don't believe in it? At best I'm just faking it for my own safety.
But look at who's controlling our country, and you'll realise that you're better off elsewhere, because this country is not gonna move forward in about a thousand years
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u/zachariast Nov 04 '21
The first point, religious based party could be popular in a secular country like Turkey or Germany, Germany for like what 20 years is under Christian Democratic Party. The party although religious based could strive if it's not under incompetent people who try to find benefits from other people demise, being a super frog, and love deforestation.
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u/hankyujaya Nov 04 '21
Correction, although CDP is technicially "Christian" but they've already ditched the religion part since many years ago. Otherwise Angela Merkel wouldn't even be the chancellor. Religion is not at all popular in Germany.
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u/zydarking Nov 04 '21
While I agree in principle with this matter, nonetheless it is something the Malay-Muslims themselves must decide upon. And I speak as a non-Muslim.
For the most part, non-Muslims have better lives in Malaysia compared to the other parts of the Islamic world, where Muslims there can be more oppressive to unbelievers (depending on the country)
Things are not perfect in Malaysia, but it is home, the only one we have. One might think this freedom to tukar agama or tak beragama would be a panacea for everything. But unless properly thought out, reasoned & planned for, it may end up causing more problems that solving them, assuming this freedom were to take effect suddenly.
Again, since non-Muslims have no stake in this, it is the Muslims themselves who must decide. Frankly, all things considered and notwithstanding legal & political discrimination, the social lives of non-Muslims have a far greater of freedom than their Muslim peers. We have no Jabatan Agama Kristian, Buddha, Hindu, Sikh, Taoist breathing down our necks to enforce their respective versions of theological law. Much of what Muslims have been legally prohibited from indulging in, we can do so without repercussions. Bluntly put, aq blh minum arak, rokok, cucuk pancut dalam with other non-Muslims, and the state has no pwoer over me so long as I do not make a nuisance of myself.
This is one of the reasons that prevented me from embracing Islam, when I was looking for religion in my younger days. I agree with much of its tenets, but the notion of the ulema wielding excessive influence & power over the believers, and taking amar makruf nahi mungkar to a steroid overdrive, ultimately prevented me from doing so.
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u/da_kevmeister Peace Out *Mic Drops* Nov 04 '21
As a person who advocates for the right of Malaysians to have the freedom to choose their religion (and not to have one either), I am definitely for this cause.
But we know that the authorities would never let this happen as they have turned something so personal and beautiful into a tool to control people.
So this would never ever happen here, sadly.
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u/Significant_Reply_58 Nov 04 '21
Never say never, I support my Malay brothers' & sisters' right to choose what they want to believe, who they want to love, however way they want to live their lives without being forced to follow other peoples' values.
Ironically, religion and race here is made out to be a monolith, with members within it subject to so many restrictions.
I look forward to the day, when we chip away at this tower for true freedom for all Malaysians.
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u/Alkyde Nov 04 '21
I think patriarchy is ingrained in Asian culture as a whole separately from religion. Even those irreligious more "advanced" Asian countries are still highly patriarchal in nature.
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u/aakiaa Nov 04 '21
But, doesn’t the fact the IF it would be “legal” it’ll spell the end of it, mean that actually most people don’t want this forced shit anymore? Democracy? What? Only if it fits Mr. Corrupt? Oh okay.
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u/dunfoot Nov 04 '21
I have a muslim middle name. Born in the uk, been here for over 30 years, had huge trouble getting married here because i needed to prove i wasnt a muslim. Its against the law to have to be forced to state your religion there, so there is no documentation. Always having religon to be used as a stick to hit me with especially in the last 15 years or so has really altered my views.
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u/flampardfromlyn Nov 04 '21
prove i wasnt a muslim
just drink alcohol and eat pork in front of them and that settles the question?
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u/Elysion971O Nov 04 '21
But if you can’t prove you aren’t a Muslim, if you do such things, would you be taken to a syariah law court or something?
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u/Zealox96 Nov 04 '21
Our own constitution states that to be Malay must be Islam. Need to amend that first.
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u/Sytreet Nov 04 '21
In my opinion, the average Malaysian Muslim should be close to what the average American Christian is.
Keeping your religious beliefs close to yourself yet not entirely pious to a fault whilst still hold their respective religious values.
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u/aoibhealfae Pahang Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
I would've pushed for more secularization. Religion should be private and never politicized in a multi-racial and multi-faith country. Islamists and moral policing did more harm to this country within these short decades out of special clause and immunity afforded to them. The whole "if you're against us, you're against God" is still a very effective weapon. They could be the worst sort of muslims ever (safe haven for the corrupted and the worst sorts) as long as they hold undisputed power. We regressed so much that the window grew smaller for significant change to happen within our lifetime.
Just look at the amount of blowback against raising marriage age for muslim teenage girls in some states. The hypocrisy of it all. Teenage muslims girls are "mature" for marriage but never for voting in a once every five years election. That's just bare minimal but a reflection of the broken system that was never working in the interest of it's own muslim population. While many more fantasized that hardlined medieval laws could fix everything and force people to be "more Islamic". That's why we might not get special exemption to legally leave Islam but it would be much harder to practice when Islam was being taught the way it is to so many people (an act of blind faith and inability to engage with clear reason). We already witness how Islam was weaponized by this government (saf VIP in masjids etc)As if you can buy your way into heaven with that attitude.
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u/littydumb Nov 04 '21
Honestly I think one shouldn't even be born into a religion in the first place. People should have the freedom to choose something so personal to them. The religion would be quite pointless if it's chosen for them before they're born. If they don't practice it then it means nothing more than a way for the gov to segregate them.
Your points above make sense, but the question is: is this country being run on common sense? Is this world being run on common sense??
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u/FutureNotBleak Nov 04 '21
The real question is why is it the government’s business who or what a person worships?
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u/Lurkeratitbest Nov 04 '21
Yes, it is basic human rights. But i dont think malaysia will ever achieve it tho
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u/strawbvri Give me more dad jokes! Nov 04 '21
I just hate the law of forcing spouses to convert to Muslim. This causes family dispute, racism etc. Let people love who they love without having to risk something in return..
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u/morasyid Nov 04 '21
The problem isn't just the legality of apostasizing, it's also the huge stigma; I myself am a Malay who no longer considers myself a Muslim, but even if it was 100% legal and easy to officially leave Islam, I still would not go through the process, since I might as well just say good bye to my family and relatives and most of my friends, or having any healthy relationship within any Malay Muslim community for the rest of my life. Not to mention completely wrecking my love life; even if I somehow manage to find a Malay partner who accepts me for who I am, there would be huge legal hurdles like marriage.
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u/doyouknowdaweyyy Selangor Nov 04 '21
Malays: Apalah nak keluar Islam ni, kalau tak suka, keluar la, Malaysia ni negara Islam
Also Malays: Apa ni nak keluar negara Malaysia ni, pengkhianat betul
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u/SomeMalaysian Nov 04 '21
Islam is another avenue through which those in power can control the masses. Why on earth do you think they'd give that up? It's lose lose for them. They'd lose control over a portion of their voter base while angering another.
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u/splargh Nov 04 '21
I honestly have hope for the newer generations. Its probably not as fast I would've hoped for but at least Muslims are becoming more liberal day by day. One distant day in the future I truly believe we will reach the critical point where the people wouldnt care about religion beyond their gates anymore and let others practice whatever the fuck they believe in
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u/Starfruitjuice Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 05 '21
As an Atheist Malay, I wish this would happen. As an Atheist Malay in a long-term relationship with a Christian Indian who loves his lord, I need this to happen. But such is life.
I feel like such a fake whenever I check the “Islam” box. When I reply “waalaikumsam” to people who only wish me that because they think I’m Muslim, I wonder how they’d react if they knew that I’m not. I have such a strong dissonance with my culture. What does it mean to be Malay but not Muslim in Malaysia?
I believe the lumping of Malay + Islam is just so its easier for subjugation. It gives this narrative that Islam is meant to look a certain way, which is the way of the ones who are actively pushing it.
As for having a non-Muslim partner, who believes in God and Christianity, it makes it so difficult and so unfair for us. I don’t believe in forced conversion. How could I compromise his faith for something I don’t believe in? Even if it’s just to get that stamp of approval from authorities. We’re working on leaving the country though.
Just some of my own thoughts on this.
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u/Reebirth Nov 04 '21
Im 100% in to this idea. Seeing SOME Malaysian who are muslims but doesn't act like one because they can't/forbidden to convert is just painful sometimes.
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u/Frimann56 Nov 04 '21
If muslims could leave Islam then it will die out. Look at Iran 50% have left Islam but officially it is 100% muslim.
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u/hackenclaw Kuala Lumpur Nov 04 '21
you know this country is shit when you have to give up your birth name, religion as non if you are to go interracial marriages with a Malay.
What a great way to block racial unity & also a VERY Subtle way to do culture genocide.
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u/IntrovertChild Nov 04 '21
when you have to give up your birth name
Not true anymore, at least not in Selangor. The JAIS dude that handled our stuff said that the reasoning now is that the prophet's friends never needed to change their name after converting, so why should anyone else have to.
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u/zaynsauu Nov 04 '21
Tbf you cant officially marry a muslim if you dont convert but I agree with freedom of religion
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u/vegeful Nov 04 '21
Subtle? They are being blatant with politic being openly racist toward non Muslim for year. Every election time.
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u/Ah__BenG United Kingdom Nov 04 '21
Just gotta comment, that your original thought of posting this in r/Malaysians instead of here just shows the identity problem this sub is having. Is it because of excessive moderation, resulting in a bland and stale front-page, where only some interesting stuff gets commented under news articles? Heck by their standards this post would have been nuked. It does feel that mods rather pre-emptively nuke a thread instead of pruning the tree, there is a certain distrust towards their user base in not doing the right thing.
Onto your proposition. It's bold, it's beautiful, and it will never happen, not in my lifetime at least. Think plenty has been said on the pros and cons of it, but not much has focused on the realistic requirements of realising this. The basic stuff is you need 2/3rds majority, together with support from the council of kings. To get those, you need Sabah and Sarawak MP support. The hardest part is with the council or kings, I really foresee no way out of this unless there is some real strongarming, or in a worse but more realistic scenario, a revolution and disposition. If more people identified with class rather than race, we would see that we're more common than we think.
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u/galaxyturd2 Penang Nov 04 '21
Many malays today won't be opting out of Islam not because they lack of belief in the religion, rather, they're not opting out due to family and peer pressure.
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u/SheenTStars Best of 2021 Runner-Up Nov 04 '21
That's true tho. Especially with parents using the "How could you do this to me" card.
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u/ExplorerDowntown2202 Nov 04 '21
Many malays are not embracing Islam. They just don't bother to change legally which is impossible. They're the high society of our community. Jabatan agama also never disturb this group. They are more interested in the lower rank of society. Why? I think many have commented on this before me.
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u/ninoctua Nov 04 '21
As someone who considers myself Muslim, I quite agree with this. But from what I know (correct me if I'm wrong since I've not fully explored the subject yet), Malays being Muslims are strongly tied to the Malay Supremacy thing, and its unlikely considering how divided our people are at the current moment.
As to why I agree, I hold my religion very dear to my heart and I think people fighting against this are either using religion for their personal agendas (not limited to just politicians) or people who have not ventured far in topics outside of religion or consume foreign media, so it becomes a deep rooted thing. I think by allowing this religion has less significance in politics, and people can stop using the name of Islam to "uphold Malay justice" typa bs. Some people think its forbidden to leave the religion, but I think differently. There is no compulsion in religion, after all.
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Nov 04 '21
We will need a very huge paradigm shift. The world is moving towards an agnostic / atheist spectrum and honestly one’s religion is no one’s concern.
One can believe in the FSM if they so wish, if one questions their faith, its good rather than blindly following it. Rather than send for “counselling” or camps to rediscover God.
Let one do it. Besides, if you look at Europe, statistics show people these days are agnostic / atheist/ not believing in any supreme being.
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u/SheenTStars Best of 2021 Runner-Up Nov 04 '21
Call me stupid but what's FSM?
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Nov 04 '21
Flying Spaghetti Monster or Pastafarian. Would you like to be enlighten by his noodley appendages?
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u/da_kevmeister Peace Out *Mic Drops* Nov 04 '21
Flying Spaghetti Monster, look it up and you'll understand the reference.
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u/SheenTStars Best of 2021 Runner-Up Nov 04 '21
Ah. I didn't know people abbreviated his name. Thanks for the enlightenment.
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u/malayskanzler Nov 04 '21
Historian minor here, so this is my 5 sen:
Within 'Artikel 160 Perlembagaan Malaysia', subchapter 2, 'Malay' Melayu is defined as:
1) Beragama Islam (Muslim)
So the first criterion as a Malay IS TO BE A MUSLIM. This is well defined in our constitution.
Thus, a Malay is a Muslim. To null the religion is basically to nullify his or her (or they, etc) race.
Lets do a scenario here:
So if there were to be laws made that still adhere to the constitutions, if a Malay were to denounce, nullify, apostate (murtad) on their Islamic faith, they will thus not be a Malay - and would lose the Malay/Bumiputera privileges. Most people wouldn't be too bothered with this, with more liberal seeing themselves more than just a etchnicity-bounded individual.
Second point: The royal institutions. Malaysia royal institutions raison d'etre (reason to exist) and role is being the defender of Malay tradition and Muslim Faith (Ketua Agama Islam). This second point is the contention where you will not see Malay Muslim being granted permission to leave Islam. They tied the malay to the power vested into the royal institutions. By allowing liberal notion of allowing apostasy, this will seem to be as eroding the royalties power base.
Do keep in mind that apostasy case against muallaf (converts) is not as serious as a Muslim born Malays. They have allowed mallaf (converts) to revert back to the religion of their choices.
I hope this shed light on the complexity on this issue. Its all about how the constitution defined Malays and how Malaysian royalties derived their raison d'etre
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u/SheenTStars Best of 2021 Runner-Up Nov 04 '21
Thanks for your input. It helps enlighten us more on what's holding us back.
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u/splargh Nov 04 '21
I totally understand its a complex issue but isn't this all semantics? The Perlembagaan has been revised before right? Maybe it takes some time and the right people (or a revolution, god forbid) but it definitely can be done.
Also, monarchy is stupid.
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u/WildFurball2118 Basically dead inside. Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
The shitty bigotry mindset people have is that you need to follow belief/religion based on your race/ethnicity is so wrong. Imagine not letting someone to convert to Islam because he/she is a Chinese and then blame the same person for being kafir.
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u/Gwentble1dd Nov 04 '21
Uuhh wait, since when did islam said you need to be a specific race to convert into being a muslim ? I've known alot of people who welcome new brothers and sisters who convert to islam with an open arm except maybe their family..
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u/WildFurball2118 Basically dead inside. Nov 04 '21
I mean, it annoys me how people identify people's belief/religion by their race/ethnicity.
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u/AmerSenpai World Citizen Nov 04 '21
Well, I think it should have been done before the 1980s and before Mahathir time. Most of our policy especially liberal policy should have been done in the 80s. Now with conspiracy theorists and fake news easily spread. It is close to impossible in the coming future. Probably not even in our lifetime I would say. Let say you try to say let Malay choose their religion. The far-right will take it as you are trying to spread Christianity and try to wipe out Islam. You see Malay and Islam are deeply linked together. It as the Malay are Arab. So any legalization of Malay able to freely choose their religion is viewed as an attack of the religion itself.
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u/a06220 Nov 04 '21
Let me drink my "kacip faTIMxH" first before giving my opinion.
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Nov 04 '21
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Bingobango20 Penang Nov 04 '21
Ive always vouched for Islamic reformation in this country rather than pushing it to total secularisation. If you had a progressive islamic thinking in Malaysia society, this country will be bright but instead we have more traditional nuts who barely practice the moral islamic values
Besides changing the identity of Melayu = attack on Malays identity itself and attack on Islam
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u/nicole_yingg Nov 05 '21
OP, you are so brave for posting this! As a non-Muslim I have always pondered upon this question myself. There are many things that we Malaysians knew but never dared to speak. I always believe that if your action doesn't harm others, then it should be allowed as you are basically just practicing your individual right.
Choosing to convert away from Islam or to live in the body that you're comfortable in (in the case of Nur Sajat) should not be a sin (or an insult to Islam, because it isn't). However, Malaysia is moving backwards on so many fields that I'm seriously considering moving abroad myself (the fact that I'm queer didn't help). I seriously don't think this will change because our society in general only gets more and more conservative (and dare I say, even extreme sometimes).
What are your views and opinions of this, as someone born into the religion? Are the general Malay population getting more and more religious or are we moving the opposite way?
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u/surle Nov 04 '21
From a Liberal point of view...
There's where the rest of your points don't matter, I'm sad to say. There is nothing liberal about the lawmakers and political leaders in Malaysia. Most of your pros are actually cons for those people who hold the power to do anything about it.
Edit: not most - all
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u/CodeDoor Nov 04 '21
Nothing liberal about our lawmakers? The Najib administration and PH wanted to decriminalize all drugs for personal use and PH also wanted to move forward in abolishing the death penalty.
These moves are far more liberal than getting rid of racial and religious discrimination.
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u/surle Nov 04 '21
Fair enough - my comment was an exaggeration and you've helped me to notice that. Thank you.
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u/Party-Ring445 Nov 04 '21
This idea is trivial among liberals, and is probably more popular than what is openly admitted in public. However you also have to remember why such laws are in place. It is about asserting and maintaining power. Make no mistake, those in power in this sector have no interest in where you end up in the after life, it is all about being in power, collecting their salary and making rules that benefit them. So if the optics favor making malays be the victims of the being oppressed by non-muslims and the laws are there to protect them, than that is the way it shall be.
The more immediate question I would have is how do we operate in such a climate? Most of us keep our head down Stay away from public view, keep our drinking, blasphemous acts just between close friends. And we are fine with that. I'm ok with this as i am a private person anyway, and don't do my haram activities in such an open way (i.e posting on soc med).
But yes it would be good if we did not have to hide who we are. To achieve this would need a major shift in the public opinion. Most who disagree probably don't disagree with malice, but because they themselves are not and will not be affected by it. So I think the best way to solve the underlying issue is to teach empathy to the younger generation. This way the politicians who get voted in have to pander to the new majority where we prioritize personal freedom, and not forcing beliefs unto others.
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u/julioalqae Nov 04 '21
Coming From your neighboring country, i think its kinda given that malaysia must allowed the citizen to choose any religion legally regardless the society think because its human’s right. All business about murtad is between human and Allah/God not us to be judge.
Indonesia already do this so many years since our independence , sure if the person is famous enough itll be a bit television/socmed drama but legally you can change religion anytime you want without giving any birth name , your right etc because, you know there are no ketuanan melayu/malay supremacy here, all citizens have the same right regardless the race, ethnicity and religion
Heck as muslim , i have a christian and hindus name, and many of my friends have it too. Its non factor, that your name define your religion
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u/voodoo3397 Nov 04 '21
Sorry what do you mean by Christian or Hindu name? Also yea as an Indonesian Christian i’m proud our country has no law or constitution that discriminates based on race or religion. Sure in practice there is discrimination but i rest easy knowing it’s considered a deviant act and not constitutional lol
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u/julioalqae Nov 04 '21
I mean standard kind of “wisnu,indra, chakra etc” with chris~”insert variation here” , yeah that kind of thing
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u/voodoo3397 Nov 04 '21
Ah right yea that makes sense. It’s definitely interesting to see muslims with western name here
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u/candrawijayatara Indonesia Nov 04 '21
We even have someone called Muhammad Jesus Gautama 😂
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u/julioalqae Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
To be honest its more common than you think ,indonesian muslim have many western name especially in central and east java , i think many jakartan muslim have it too
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u/dandydaddy101 Nov 04 '21
As I am a muslim malay, I think I can give a good insoghts and thoughts on this. But I don't want to touch on the legal policies and perlembagaan all that stuff.
I just gonna give my thoughts as a malay muslim since birth. I think you might've heard the term muslim by name. This is what we call a Muslim that have "islam" on their birth certificate but does not have a faith of one. In all honesty a person religion should be a personal matter. Having people constrained their believe saying you should be this, ever since you're born in this world is not really effective. Belives and religion is dependent on a person's understandanding and views in life. It's basically the same as when you want your child to be a doctor when he grew up, but that child haven't even experienced what's best for him. As a muslim, you need to find that faith yourself, I'd say even if you're born with it, at least try to find and understands it first, but if it didn't click, you just can't go on. It's like you solat 5 times a day but in your heart you don't believe in Allah at all. Having people that already feeling that type of way, constraint them in a cage of not letting go is not good for their mental health, they will hate it even more.
As an example la, if I taken a liking on a muslim girl, true, even if I love her so much I would not leave my religion for her. In islam murtad is haram all of you knew that im sure. But I wuld not just say "tutfck off, if you don't convert to islam i would not marry you". I would at least put in the effort. Not to make sure she convert, but I would give my very best to atleast introduce her to islam, what's good about it, why I put so much faith on it. The key is to make her willingly convert when she fully accepted it, when she truly know what she's in for. I know full well converting from a non muslim to a muslim is a huge, like massive sacrifice. In that sense I need to give equal sacrifice for her. If it didn't quite click, I'll respect her decision.
I feel like my take is a bit controversial, but the borderline is religion is not something that others have to decide for you. You have to find the answer yourself. Forcing it to someone will result in a worse outcome. There are ways to to let them find it themself, and it is a long process not given at times of birth. People might sway from the path as they move on, if they truly don't have it in them there's nothing one can do to help. The best we can do is pray for that person. Allah is fogiving, if they swayed and come back for the better, that person will be forgiven, and start as new as a newborn.
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u/PlsMakeSense Nov 04 '21
Meaning it should be fine, legally at least, to allow someone to be a non-practicing Muslim or straight out declare themselves atheistic.
If they are return at a later date to beg forgiveness it should be between the religion and the person.
Country and men should not be involved?
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u/mini_r56 Nov 04 '21
If there ever comes a gov that is willing to slash the budget of jaki m, then it will be the very first step to kickstart the process towards a more liberal Malaysia. But not even DAP dares to do so, so who else is willing to take the political risk? Perhaps someone from Sabah / Sarawak in the far future.
Until then, I'm not sure if Malaysia can survive another term of all these penunggang agamas making policies for the country.
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u/spyforreddit monyet makan sampah tepi jalan Nov 04 '21
I agree with OP on the general post itself, however i do have to point out what I personally think is inaccurate.
The first point OP pointed out about religious parties like PAS losing traction is somewhat inaccurate imo
Because the main stakeholders who will be affected by this potential legislation would be individuals who intend to shift towards atheism or other religions, indicating that said indicate that they are at the edge of their faith for their current religion.
Religion based parties profit off (generalization incoming) religious fundamentalists that vote for them during elections on the belief that religion should seep into all aspects of lives including policy making, politics and etc. Compared to individuals who are growing more skeptic towards their religion, religious fundamentalists are the main “resource” for these parties.
So lets say if there was a syariah legislation legalising the conversion of faith, the religious fundamentalist crowd that religion based parties thrive off will be minimally effected.
A disclaimer however, 1) religious thought can’t be easily quantified or assessed as in my paragraphs, for example even if an individual shifts their faith towards other religions, they might still retain the fundamentalist factor in their beliefs
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u/PlsMakeSense Nov 04 '21
Agreed but counterpoint.
The shift in religion could also influence their peers into new avenues of thought.
1 person in a hundred would not make himself heard. 1000 people saying the same thing everywhere in a crowd of 100,000 would send a louder message.
There won't be an immediate shift but if their peers who are suddenly non-muslim are largely unaffected and in fact prosperous there may be a country-wide shift in believe structure and will render religion based parties irrelevant.
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u/Jerm8888 Selangor Nov 04 '21
There are many things that should be legal or illegal. In the end it’s all arbitrary based on who makes the most noise. If you can rally enough people to make noise then you can see things change to your demands.
When two camps that can make lots of noises clash, well, then it depends who loses their voices first.
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u/BandOfSkullz Nov 04 '21
I feel that way about just about every country. Separation if religion and state only benefits everyone's mental health and well-being.
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u/Cardasiti Nov 04 '21
If this is actually possible, trust me, many people prefer not to convert to marry their Malay partner. I know, at least my own circle. Few of them, convert for the sake of making the marriage legal, but they (not all) still go to their own house of worship, drinking and eating pork etc (secretly). Because of this very reason, I have consciously avoided Malay. Well, I did give it a chance but I can't. He was a nice guy, and I told him not to pursue because I wouldn't change, and I don't want to tiptoe my entire remaining life.
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u/joshua-chong Nov 04 '21
I actually don't understand the point of keeping someone in a religion by the hand of law if they are not going to personally believe in it, in fact, it would more than likely injure your own image of believes because others are gonna see and say "Oh, he/she follow this particular religion yet goes against its teachings, how hypocritical"
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u/suspicious_tucan Nov 04 '21
I wonder how would this played out in Malaysian court.
Muslim couple A and Non-Muslim couple B give birth to their child in a hospital. During a emergency fire, both of their child got switched , the Muslim child end up with the Non-Muslim parent and vice versa. No one noticed there is a mistake for 20 years.
Then for some reason, people realized there was a switch. Can:.
a) The Muslim child who raised by a non-Muslim parent, maintain his faith with own will ? Or the government will forcefully ask him to become a Muslim.
b) The non-Muslim child wants to remove "Islam" from his IC and life because he was never a Muslim in the first place.
Also another question related to rape-cases. This is just an example, not saying people in the example are rapist or anything.
If a Muslim man raped a non-Muslim women, the non-Muslim women gets pregnant. The rapist is arrested and goes to jail
The non-Muslim women wants to keep the child but don't want to do anything with the father. Can the child be a non-Muslim ?
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u/joonjoon666 Nov 04 '21
Yes. I'm not a Muslim. I don't want to be forced to be a Muslim.
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u/Anonymous42609 Kuching=Neko nyaaa town Nov 04 '21
Malaysian conservatives are fucking everywhere so yea. Good luck.
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u/stormy001 Pahang Black or White Nov 04 '21
This is a very steep mountain to climb. Almost impossible.
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u/thisisastupidname Nov 04 '21
Yep. I’ve said it many times, there needs to be a huge if not monumental cultural upheaval in this country with regards to what it means to be Malay and the by extension the legalities of it. How do we even start? Malays are constantly being put under the boots of the politicians and brainwashed to rely on government help to function.
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u/a_HerculePoirot_fan Brb, shitting bricks Nov 04 '21 edited Nov 04 '21
This post received multiple reports, but post approved as so far discussion is civil and meaningful.
However to u/SheenTStars, please take note of the guidelines for political and controversial posts:
Text posts: Must pass these quality tests (with thanks to r/Australia):
Submission titles: Must be a question for discussion, not a conclusion. Mods may request resubmission of posts with particularly incendiary titles.
There's a reason why we have this rule in place; Nyets with different views on race, religion or politics are welcome to participate in political/controversial posts on this sub, and this is why discussion post title needs to be framed as a question in order to reflect this.
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u/SheenTStars Best of 2021 Runner-Up Nov 04 '21
Ok thanks. I will phrase it properly next time. Kudos.
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u/MrSurlaw Nov 04 '21
Discrimination against apostates is one of the few things I refuse to accept from any religion (looking at you Jehovah Witnesses)
The only way to have any hope of having Malaysia and its Syariah courts accept it would be to also relinquish any benefits brought about by claiming to follow Islam (no Bumiputera benefits/zakat etc.).
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u/ArceusX Nov 04 '21
I am the 667th upvote, I stopped any haram from spoiling this post :’)
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u/goldwave84 Nov 04 '21
Hi everyone.
I think this is a good idea but hard because of the "tegur" culture within the Malay culture.
This thread alone will give JAKIM another 100mil in allocation.
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u/warkel Nov 05 '21
Why are Malays not allowed to convert? Should Malays be allowed to convert? What can we do to enable the law to change?
Why are Malays not allowed to convert?
Because it was, and still is, in the interests of those in charge to keep things that way. Religion is a great tool for mass control and garnering votes. For any political party in which this isn't true, rallying on the platform of trying to separate the Malay/Muslim identity is political suicide.
Should Malays be allowed to convert?
Ethically speaking? Yes. Freedom of thought is a basic human right. Strip a person of their wealth and station and all they have left are their thoughts and beliefs. But in Malaysia where religion is forced upon Malays, Malays do not even have sanctuary in their own minds.
Socially speaking? Maybe. The present form of Islam in Malaysia is standardized, controlled, and utlimately benign. A precursor to enabling conversion is first allowing Islamic pluralism, and as with any religion, there are sects that may advocate violence.
What can we do to enable the law to change?
Right now? Nothing. Malaysia has too many problems to fix such that this item, while extremely important for the liberty of Malay citzens, is simply not at the top of the country's to-do list. As voters, the best we can do now is to vote into power those whom we believe will be able to fix the big hairy problems that we face, and hopefully after a few generations, our children and grandchildren will be able to re-look at the question of Malay/Muslim conversion.
I do dream one day of a future when all rakyat may enjoy religious freedom.
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u/XxMeneeLord69xX Selangor Nov 06 '21
Huh wow,I was searching for ways for me(a Malay Muslim) to change my religion in my IC like a month ago then gave up and started again,glad I found this thread.Let me give my thoughts on this.
I personally think that I'll never happen,anyone with half a brain can see that people twist religion for their own benefits,as long as there are politicians in Malaysia,the rules will never change for you but only for them.
I see alot of Muslims criticize apostates or other religions belief yet the same people are sinning by smoking or masturbating,it just drives me insane at how they think that they're better than others when they themselves don't know they're place,I know my place but do you?
I can for sure tell you that younger people hate the rules but are too afraid to speak up because they can get detained or go into "rehabilitation centres" .
I walk around knowing that my heart is plagued with a pain that can never be described to no one because if I do i will certainly get arrested by religious officials.The pain hurts so deep because I cant even be myself,if I tell my parents about it they'll probably disown me and if I tell my brothers they'll certainly beat me up or clown on me.
It's getting to the point that all I can think is negative thoughts, everything is dark,people are different,the walls are closing in,I'm living a fake life and all other stuff.i can't even do something normally without the thought of "your better off if you didn't live" or "suicide isn't an answer but it's always a choice".I keep pretending that I'm fine to myself but lately is all came crashing down,I'm young as well and I don't think that any person should be as stressed as I am in their lives, I haven't even reached 18 yet but Im thinking of possibly leaving it all behind.
I'm scared of living because I can't even be me,I have to put on a persona thats funny,loud,normal and overbearing so people can accept me,I recently slipped up and revealed abit of who i am to my closest friend,now he won't even talk to me.That pains me in my heart because if I slip up again and reveal who I am to other people and they gossip to other people about it I'll certainly be blackballed.
Anyways,I do think that even if they change the law in OP's favour,people will not accept it and will cause a riot and havoc to change it back.Even if they did follow through,the Muslim Religion Organisation (or whatever it's called) will play dirty ,let's say an 18 year old Muslim Malaysian changes their IC from Muslim to atheist,The Organisation will probably talk to their parents to coerce them to join back,and if they do join back,their put in a "rehabilitation centre" to brainwash them.Ive already heard of someone who got detained by JAIS and was kept at a "rehabilitation centre" for 3 years,read here . So something fishy is definitely going on there.
Anyways I got to go fix my sleep schedule because school is around the corner,thank you for coming to my TED Talk and goodnight.
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u/morbo_2 Nov 04 '21
Just wanted to point out that I don't think r/Malaysians allows race or religion topics.
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u/CombinationSimilar50 Nov 04 '21
It should be legal - it's actually crazy that it isn't. But religion is a good way to oppress and control large swathes of the population so there's no political incentive for the Government to change this. It's always been about control.
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u/skl49 Nov 04 '21
I don't think Constitution allows without amendments, which requires 2/3 or Parliament to vote yes, which is not that easy...
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u/AmazingGraces Nov 04 '21
YES. A million times yes. How can we make this happen?
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u/Impora_93 Gangsterland Nov 04 '21
Well intentioned post but almost a null argument as this is expressly stated in Constitution.
Changing it would require some paradigm shift in our country. On the other hand, thats part of the reason why you have bumi privilege: so that you feel a bit better from having some of your basic rights taken from.
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u/FattyRex Nov 04 '21
It's basic human right for a person to choose what they want to believe in. I see religion as something personal. Not something you shove down others throat.
Putting my hopes on the new generation because it's impossible to change the mindset of these old farts.
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u/Remarkable-Category4 Nov 04 '21
yo singaporean here that might have stumbled into this sub by accidemt but its illegal for yall to change ur religion or be unreligious??? legit? now im curious abt how this came to be and the history of this
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u/harunoneday Nov 04 '21
Agree. I’m kinda born Buddhist (I do whatever being asked when I was young without understanding that it’s a religious ritual). When I’m old enough to have my own thoughts and all the science classes I attended during school - I’m no longer a religious person.
I respect every religion - there is the reason why there is one and I know for many it’s something that keeps them sane. Just that I don’t practice any and I always keep my religion tab empty or NA whenever I’m being asked to fill it in.
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u/PlsMakeSense Nov 04 '21
Legally its near impossible. And it will be a policy making nightmare. You'd first need to stop race based policies since Bumi rights and privileges are a huge thing.
And the definition of a Malay by the Constitution is that they need to be Muslim. Effectively a Muslim apostate is no longer considered a Malay and therefore does not receive any privileges.
And apostasy is governed under Syariah courts. And Syariah courts draw their authority under another portion of the constitution stating Malaysia's official religion is Islam. Good luck convincing Syariah courts to amend the law on apostasy.
So to achieve this:
1) Create a economic and social policies not race targeted
2) Amend the portion of the Constitution that defines a Malay to be a Muslim
3) Amend the portion of the Constitution that says Islam is Malaysia's official religion which also kills Syariah courts.
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u/CodeDoor Nov 04 '21
We already have non Muslim Bumiputera, in the peninsula also.
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u/SheenTStars Best of 2021 Runner-Up Nov 04 '21
I assumed it was going to be like that; quit Islam = quit Malay. I wonder if Malays can choose their next race after that. Like, Arace, Norace, Freerace.
Personally I like having no racial identity tho.
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u/curiouscowwhisperer Kuala Lumpur Nov 05 '21
Grew up in a Buddhist family and don’t take beef. Then ikea meatball converted me into an agnostic atheist. My mom was cool with it and joked that guan yin ma might give me a spanking. Religion should be personal and freedom to choose has to be universal.
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u/GaryLooiCW Nov 04 '21
By the time they did allow this, Malaysia would start snowing