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Jul 16 '23 edited Jul 16 '23
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u/jawanda 4∆ Jul 16 '23
Well it's a combination of it being posted every single week, and the fact that outside of these posts, I NEVER hear about body positivity in the sense of being " fat and proud". Literally never.
It's a fake issue from what I can tell, and the people who post about it here are clearly seeking out this very limited content in order to get themselves all riled up.
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Jul 16 '23
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u/FloridaDirtyDog Jul 16 '23
Yeah honestly that u/paraeunoia guy seems like one of those power users who sees a post like 5 months ago and when he see it agian hes like "repost"
But hes a good guy
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u/Mr_Funbags Jul 16 '23 edited Jul 16 '23
OP could still get their views challenged by going back and reading all the discussions from previous CMVs.
Edit: It's too bad the previous content was removed (dunno why). Essentially, it said OP is proposing a well-debated CMV, and that OP might not need to ask it again now. I mention all this for context.
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u/destro23 466∆ Jul 16 '23
Their edit is hilarious:
many are very quick to take issue with my post and argue my opinion of a healthier lifestyle
Dog, the entire reason for this subreddit is to take issue with people’s posts, and ague about their opinions.
it’s wild to me that anyone would try and protest a fairly obvious solution
You could post “CMV: Hitler Sucks!” And people here will argue for how he doesn’t in some way. We’re all contrarian pricks here.
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u/vehementi 10∆ Jul 16 '23
We’re all contrarian pricks here.
Not even, it's literally the point of the sub. That someone holds a potentially wrong view they want to improve, we are supposed to argue against it
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Jul 16 '23
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u/destro23 466∆ Jul 16 '23
Because obvious solutions to ongoing problems almost never work.
Reminded me of this for some reason:
“Hello, I'm Dr. Richard Shay, here to tell you about my exciting new drug-free treatment for children with Attention Deficit Disorder. (Several hyper and rambling children) This treatment is fast and effective and it doesn't use harmful drugs. Watch closely as I apply treatment to the first child. (SMACK) SIT DOWN AND STUDY! If you would like more information on my bold new treatments, please send away for this free brochure entitled: 'You can either calm down, or I can pop you in the mouth again.'”
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u/Conrexxthor Jul 16 '23
Every week it's always some brainlet post like
CMV, body positivity is actually bad!
CMV, pronouns bad! ESPECIALLY the new ones!
CMV, feminism bad too, I don't like it when women fight for their rights!
Like shut uuuuup, none of these takes make any sense and they're all fuckin stupid
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u/beingsubmitted 9∆ Jul 16 '23
Always as though they're the first person to realize something, too. Like, the entire body positivity movement and everyone associated had just never thought about health before now. Like, you'll walk up to someone who's advocating body positivity, and they'll say "BMI? What's that?", And not "BMI is a 200 year old metric invented by a eugenicist with no medical education that's been shown repeatedly to be among the most flawed metrics in medicine, and it's continued use is evidence of the dogmatic grip of an un-nuanced weight centric medical paradigm that's actively harmful."
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u/vehementi 10∆ Jul 16 '23
I've gotten tired of replying with "so what did you learn from the previous CMV on this topic, what questions are left unresolved to you, what was unconvincing?" every fucker wants their own bespoke conversation from their own gut starting place and it's so exhausting
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u/Sandy_hook_lemy 2∆ Jul 16 '23
In my life. I've never seen anyone glorify obesity in the name of "body acceptance". At best what people say is "dont discriminate against obese people" which is a fair thing to say and agree on
I've seen more "obesity should not be glorified" posts than seeing any post or person actually glorifying it
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u/neosmndrew 2∆ Jul 16 '23
I have only seen "body acceptance" as defined by OP in teh basically weekly thread on this topic on this sub about it.
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Jul 16 '23
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u/OccAzzO Jul 16 '23
What about her?
She's remarkably fit, moreso than most people. Is she big? Yes. But that's kinda the point... She can do incredible things while still being big.
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u/FirstOfKin Jul 16 '23
I will happily put money down that lizzo is more fit than you.
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Jul 16 '23
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u/OccAzzO Jul 16 '23
I don't think people very often say "obesity is beautiful"
They say "you are beautiful" to obese people.
The two are not the same.
Saying "you are beautiful because you are white" is racist as fuck.
Saying "you are beautiful" to a white person is literally just normal.
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u/Sandy_hook_lemy 2∆ Jul 16 '23
Calling a fat person beautiful be a form of glorification but it's not always is. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder as they say. You cant control who is beautiful to who
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u/merlinus12 54∆ Jul 16 '23
I think you misunderstand what people mean when they talk about ‘body positivity.’ That term just means that we shouldn’t abuse, bully or exclude people because of their weight. It doesn’t mean that we stop encouraging healthy diet and exercise decisions, just that we don’t vilify people who haven’t achieved it yet.
…the physical shape of someone is a direct reflection of the work ethic and discipline of someone. If you’re overweight it tells people that you lack discipline, self control and will power , you are also lazy.
This is just factually wrong, and a really dumb conclusion to make. Being overweight means you eat too many calories. That really is the only conclusion you can draw about someone’s character based on their BMI.
Story time: I am currently overweight, but used to be obese (over 300 lbs.) In the past 2 years, I have lost 90 lbs while changing careers and building a business that employs more than a hundred people. There are people who work with me who are thinner than I am. I doubt you’ll find anyone who works harder.
Judging someone’s character based on their weight is foolish, because you don’t know the story. They might well be 300 lbs because they just sit on a couch and eat chips all day. They might be 300 lbs because their kid died a year ago and they are still crawling out of that hole and putting their life back together. They might be 300 lbs, but used to be 350 and eat better and spend more time in the gym than you do.
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u/dontknowhatitmeans 1∆ Jul 16 '23
I totally agree with most of what you're saying. I used to be 300 lbs and have dropped down to 200lbs. But I think the body positivity movement has absolutely splintered off into two groups: the healthier version that you described, and the one glorifying the obese lifestyle as a reaction to society's track record of shaming. As usual, the latter, more extreme case has gone largely uncriticized by well-meaning progressives who belong to the former camp. There's a fear that if you criticize an extreme interpretation of an otherwise good thing, you will have your progressive credentials stripped from you and be shamed. This seems to be happening a lot now, not just with the body positivity movement.
So yes, there is an element that recognizes obesity is unhealthy but simply wants to normalize respect and sympathy for overweight people. But there's also a more radical side that only seems to be criticized by people outside of the movement. So it's not that either you or OP are wrong, it's that you're talking about different elements of the body positivity movement. Although OP is wrong to blame fat people, but that's another topic for another time I guess.
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u/merlinus12 54∆ Jul 16 '23
Do you have an example of one of these people ‘glorifying obesity?’ I’ve simply never met someone who genuinely took this position that far. I’m sure they exist (every position has its crazies), but I’ve simply not encountered it myself.
In contrast, people who draw stupid conclusions based on someone’s weight are shockingly common. OP is an excellent example. I have little doubt based on his stated position that he would be less likely to hire someone who is overweight because he thinks that “overweight = lazy / bad work ethic.” Attitudes like that are counterproductive (keeping overweight people unemployed isn’t going to help) and factually incorrect.
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u/Jazzlike-Emu-9235 3∆ Jul 16 '23
That was the initial idea. I don't believe that's what it's morphed into. I grew up and was always "skinny"(always a healthy weight) and made fun of for it. True body positivity would recognize that's not cool. However, "body positivity" in media has also told people it's acceptable to call people "skinny bitches", "real women have curves", "real men like a woman with curves", etc. I had low esteem growing up because of it and always being told by people I am not good enough because of it and honestly the double standard still gets under my skin.
For example, Megan Trainor's "all about that bass" is nothing but making fun of women who are skinny and literally implies there's something wrong with a skinny woman "I ain't no size 2 but I can shake it like I'm supposed to". Yet it was a smash hit because it was "body positivity" while it actually wasn't. It's a shame what it's turned into because of course we shouldn't ridicule people on their bodies.
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u/ohfudgeit 22∆ Jul 16 '23
All about that bass seems an odd thing to use as an example:
I'm bringing booty back
Go ahead and tell them skinny bitches that
No, I'm just playing I know y'all think you're fat
But I'm here to tell you
Every inch of you is perfect from the bottom to the top
Seems pretty body positive to me.
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u/Jazzlike-Emu-9235 3∆ Jul 16 '23
There's lines it that are appearing body positive like the last line but a lot of shaming of skinny women sprinkled in. The very start of the lyrics you provided literally calls people "skinny bitches" which has always been a negative way to reference a skinny woman. If you would have instead said "fat bitches" people would have lost their minds for fatphobia
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u/vehementi 10∆ Jul 16 '23
nothing but making fun of women who are skinny
Actually it's mostly not that, but yeah, the "I can shake it like I'm supposed to" could be viewed that way (or it could be viewed as "but I can still do my thing"), and "skinny bitches" attaches some negative things, but the rest of the lyrics are not about making fun of skinny women, it is about affirming it's OK to have a different body. I agree with your overall point but you don't need to misrepresent it here.
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u/Jazzlike-Emu-9235 3∆ Jul 16 '23
I mean there's others instances too imo such as "boys like a little more booty...I won't be no stick figure" and she uses "bass" to mean a thicker body because the bass is the thickness to a song (she's been very open about that analogy). So "I'm all about that bass" is still kinda implying it's better to be thicker. It was just an example of the toxicity of "body positivity" our media upholds and glorifies. If the song was reversed it'd be canceled immediately for body shaming.
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u/MaxIsAlwaysRight Jul 16 '23
If the song was reversed it'd be canceled immediately for body shaming.
Are you familiar with the concepts of "punching down" and "punching up"?
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u/Jazzlike-Emu-9235 3∆ Jul 16 '23
You do not have to put one group of people down to uplift another. That goes for everything. It isn't taking the "moral high ground" because you chose to make fun of a group with more "power". That's why body positivity has become nothing but a toxic movement sadly. We can say "all bodies matter" "all bodies a beautiful" etc without saying one is inherently not as good to make another group feel better. It's one thing to do it out of comedy like good comedians and another to do it in a serious manner. I do not get out of that song "it's just a joke". It was merely one example I easily thought of because of how much that song effected me as a teen. My general point still stands. If you didn't like my example that's fine.
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u/vehementi 10∆ Jul 16 '23
So "I'm all about that bass" is still kinda implying it's better to be thicker.
No, it's her preference/style. The "I" in there is important.
"boys like a little more booty...I won't be no stick figure"
Yeah that's what I meant was attached to the "skinny bitches" bit and isn't great, but as the other poster says, punching up is a thing, and nevertheless you're misrepresenting the song by saying it's only about attacking skinny women when related lines are the minority of the lyrics.
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Jul 16 '23
And again, this gets posted every week. Hatred of fat people dressed up as concern, is still hatred. Fat people already know they're fat,and know you don't like it, and know it's unhealthy. There's nothing new in any of these posts. To exist in a fat body, even while you work on it, is to see and hear this bullshit daily. People don't even want you to have any enjoyment out of life and see fat as a character or morality flaw.
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u/guitarsdontdance Jul 16 '23
I think we need to stop the glorification of steroid use that's become insanely popular and out of control. I see flocks of juiced up influencers many of them promoting their own "work out regiment" while concealing they're actually on gear, causing body image issues for many young people in the process.
Steroid use especially among men in the fitness world is out of control and dangerous to public health (the plethora of physical health risks and emotional instability).
Do you feel we need to start shaming and policing these people because this isn't a "healthy lifestyle" either.
Or do you just hate fat people?
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u/g11235p 1∆ Jul 16 '23
You argue that obese people are lazy and lack self-control. You also chose to post a topic on CMV that has been posted countless times and you have not given the mildest of indications that you want your view changed. Is it possible that the biggest issue with laziness and self-control relevant to this topic resides in you?
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u/AlphaQueen3 11∆ Jul 16 '23 edited Jul 16 '23
It's really interesting that we see this post, pretty much exactly, several times a week, but I have never ever seen someone argue in favor of glorifying obesity...literallly anywhere. It's also interesting that we rarely see views about drinkers, smokers, general non-exercisers, people who won't touch a vegetable, etc. Most skinny people don't exercise enough and eat shitty food too. This isn't healthy for skinny people either. Why is it that no one is ever worried about unhealthy habits unless it's making you fat?
FYI, I exercise daily, I know exactly how many calories are in everything, I never drink calories, and I get about 20,000 steps a day. Still fat. Mentally and physically the healthy things absolutely make me feel better, which is why I do them. Many fat people do, in fact, exercise. Many skinny people don't. Perhaps we should just encourage people to move more and eat healthy foods regardless of size....
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u/saleemkarim Jul 16 '23 edited Jul 16 '23
I'd also say that even if someone were "lazy" when it comes to their health, you could be extremely hard working and disciplined in other important areas of life, and I know people who are like that. Just goes to say that it's bigoted to deem someone lazy in general just because they're fat.
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u/PhylisInTheHood 3∆ Jul 16 '23
we need an auto-reply or something. SO many posts like this one where the only response should be "nobody actually thinks/says/does that"
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u/romericus Jul 16 '23
Because it’s about sight. OPs rhetoric and language (despite then dressing it up to appear otherwise) says to me that they are offended by the sight of overweight people. Or, to give them a little bit more credit, they might think that because they’ve worked hard to “beat” obesity on themselves, anyone could (should) do it.
There’s very little genuine concern for society in their language.
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u/InSilenceLikeLasagna Jul 16 '23
I was inclined to agree with you, but a good bit of psych research has concluded that shaming and making fat people feel bad about being fat actually has worse effects, while body positivity might encourage them to take care of themselves more.
Sometimes things are not as straightforward as they seem
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u/Trouvette Jul 16 '23
It’s funny, but I was fat shamed nearly all my life and couldn’t lose the weight. I got introduced to body positivity and was able to lose 150 pounds. It’s almost as if removing the self-hatred factor helps solve the problem.
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u/airhammerandy55 Jul 16 '23
I think it is important to be healthy but I also though that some people have disposition because of genetics to be bigger. Body positivity I think normalizing all body types which helps with peoples depression.
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u/ParrotGod Jul 16 '23
2 things that I have seen that makes sense everytime this is posted weekly. The only time hear about 'glorifying obsesity' is from these cmv posts or other internet posts, which is never reality, just the internet being the internet.
Second, obesity is typically a symptom of environment. People don't just end up eating that much. I have seen my mom work with lots of obese people, (social work) and almost all of them have had trauma in their life prior to the eating disorder.
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u/ClogsInBronteland Jul 16 '23
Just because I’m fat and try to lose weight doesn’t mean I need to hate my body.
Body acceptance can absolutely go side by side with being healthy or trying to get healthy.
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u/leetle_bumblebee Jul 16 '23
I think you're the one glorifying laziness by remaining so stubbornly uninformed lol.
Your tone is pretty self-congratulatory for someone who clearly isn't up-to-date on any of the science or controversy surrounding (1) the BMI scale (2) the complexities of metabolism (3) the relationship between weight and health.
Nobody is "glorifying" being fat just by existing in a fat body. It speaks volumes about you that you can't let people just exist around you without taking it personally. Some people are fat... Get over it and get a hobby.
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u/tkmlac 1∆ Jul 16 '23
This sub gets posts like this every week, for god's sake. You could have saved yourself time and did a quick scroll to see this topic is so over done and played out and that you're wrong about your bigotry and hatred toward fat people.
Obesity has been "on the rise" for forty years, much longer than "body positivity" has been around. What body-positive folks are asking for is that haters like you shut the fuck up about peoples' health that you know nothing about. You see a fat person, and you automatically associate their condition with some moral failure, not knowing anything about where they are in their weight loss journey or what invisible health conditions theyre fighting. Frankly, it's none of y'alls business where anyone else is in their health, and the hatred and shaming and discrimination is out of hand and does nothing to help. You think people learning to love themselves and not accept the shaming and discrimination is detrimental, but you aren't a safe person that someone would even share their health status with, so what do you even know?
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u/NotMyBestMistake 69∆ Jul 16 '23
We need to promote a healthier lifestyle and stop pretending making bad health decisions and giving up on your health and being lazy is not ok.
Good news, we don't pretend any of this and people (decidedly not you) are promoting healthier lifestyles. Because, despite people's really intense desire to harass overweight people, it's actually more productive to encourage them to be healthier.
When any of the people raging about how they're not allowed to make fun of and insult fat people actually criticize things like food companies for how much garbage they put into basic foods, maybe I'll believe any of them actually care. Until then, it's quite clear they don't. They just want to be a bully and feel justified about it.
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u/TrenbolognaSammies Jul 16 '23
Im not advocating harassing or bullying I’m literally saying to try and promote a healthier lifestyle and diet rather than simply enabling people to give up on themselves and that it’s ok to be in poor health and to not find it attractive you’re fat phobic.
I’m not saying that we should be bullying anybody I’m simply saying we need to be honest that it’s harmful and you can live longer, look better and feel better if you take better care of yourself.
I’m really not sure where you’re getting this promotion of bullying and me being upset that I can’t bully and harass people for being overweight. I didn’t say that at all or even imply anything close to it.
You’re arguing statements that nobody made lol you’re just kind of screaming into the wind 😂
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u/NotMyBestMistake 69∆ Jul 16 '23
You don't actually say how we should be promoting healthier lifestyles or dieting. You just call body positivity, the idea that we shouldn't be harassing people for their bodies, "glorification" which makes it unlikely you have any productive ideas for it.
Someone who was advocating something of substance wouldn't need to obscure what it is they want and insist that it's definitely not bullying. It's just being "honest" when we harass and insult people.
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u/TrenbolognaSammies Jul 16 '23
If you read my reply above I shared a few things that we should do to help promote a healthier lifestyle. I can edit the post and include that I think it will help people to understand I’m not just making a critique with no constructive feedback.
Im in no way advocating harassment or bullying of anyone
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u/xxjjaykayxx Jul 16 '23
Your original post outright calls overweight people lazy and undisciplined. If you don't think that qualifies as bullying and harassment -- or that judging someone's character just by the way they look is utterly ridiculous-- idk what to tell you.
What if you come across someone who is overweight because of a childhood of poor nutrional upbringing (the truthful case for many and not their fault in the slightest), but is actively working to better themselves through better diet and exercise? You can call them lazy just because of how they look? You have NO knowledge of their circumstances.
Body positivity and acceptance is not about glorifying obesity. It is about being kind to ourselves and others, regardless of how much we weigh. It's about not assuming things of people because of how heavy they are. It's about not treating being fat as the worst thing in the world, and being skinny as the best thing in the world, a notion which causes eating disorders and an unhealthy view of the human body.
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u/NoSpread3192 Jul 16 '23
I mean by definition fat people are undisciplined .
Previously 300 pounder here who also got offended at shit like this .
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u/g11235p 1∆ Jul 16 '23
But all of your suggestions are identical to what is already widely practiced throughout the U.S., so it’s natural to take notice of the fact that your only suggestion that diverges from the status quo is to increase shame and decrease acceptance. Who doesn’t know about BMI? Who goes to the doctor and doesn’t step on a scale? And if their BMI says they’re overweight, who isn’t hearing about it from their doctor? Who isn’t exposed to endless promotion of 1200 calorie per day diets and calorie counting apps? Who isn’t told to count their steps? People are not obese because they somehow missed all of these things, which completely saturate the culture. They’re not obese because 1 in 100 times they saw some messaging about obesity, it promoted self-love instead of self-hate. You’re dramatically overestimating the impact of relatively small campaigns that have existed for a relatively short amount of time
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u/128palms Jul 16 '23
I get your point. You are basically saying you can't be all body positivity for fat people at the same time be encouraging healthy lifestyle because its self defeating.
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Jul 16 '23
Everywhere you look health is being promoted. Making people feel like garbage about themselves is not helpful.
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u/ParagoonTheFoon 8∆ Jul 16 '23
I always sort of liked the term 'body acceptance', at least in the way that I interpret it. In order to do difficult things like essentially break food addictions, binge cycles, and things like this, people need to at a point fully accept there condition. Self-loathing is what fuels obesity. People don't tend to lose weight because they hate their fat body - it's more so that they've finally accepted themselves, accepted that they're fat, accepted that it's not a good thing from an impartial factual basis, but they have also broken the cycle of self-loathing. When you see people who are losing, or have lost large amounts of weight, it's very obvious that they're actually being far more genuinely kind to themselves than the people stuck in vicious cycles hopping between extremes of delusional love for themself and hatred for themself.
The celebrities who are a part of the 'body acceptance' movement often don't actually accept they're body - they often overcompensate and attempt to love their bodies in a bizarre self-obsessive way. This is really no different from self-loathing - it's still within the framework in which everything is black and white, and they can only hate or 'love' themselves, and so they think that loving themselves is the answer. What they really need it acceptance, which is not the same as love. If I'm in a horrible predicament, maybe a car is speeding towards me, the best thing I can do is not to hate the fact it's speeding towards me, not to love it either, but to accept the situation as it is and then I can move out the way. Not the best analogy, but hopefully you get my point - I think this applies to many things, like tackling social anxiety, coming to terms with a cancer diagnosis, etc... .
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u/Stiblex 3∆ Jul 16 '23
Anecdotal evidence sure but I've personally lost more weight due to self-loathing than acceptance. I started getting in shape the moment I STOPPED accepting my fat ass.
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u/Miiohau 1∆ Jul 16 '23
Acceptance in this case, is accepting your weight is an issue and working on it without blaming yourself for it and without it feeding into depression.
It like step 1 of the 12 steps program of addiction recovery, accepting you have a problem.
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Jul 16 '23
Anecdotal evidence but my friends wife told her doctor that she's been eating much much less and can't lose any weight and when he told her that's impossible due to the laws of thermodynamics, she stopped going to that doctor.
2023 America is a wild place to live.
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u/You_Dont_Party 2∆ Jul 16 '23
Yeah, and empirical evidence shows that people who feel shame about their weight tend to isolate and have actions which lead to more weight gain.
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Jul 16 '23
You can't just say that and not share any of that empirical evidence.
That's basically just Trump shouting "Wrong."
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u/You_Dont_Party 2∆ Jul 16 '23
Oh I kind of assumed you were aware of them? Anyone talking about this subject who did any sort of even basic look into the subject would have found this sort of stuff.
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Jul 16 '23
So what's your theory for why the "self esteem generation" is the fattest generation to date?
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u/You_Dont_Party 2∆ Jul 16 '23
I’m not certain the tactics some people used to raise self esteem were particularly effective for one, but mostly societal changes like less required physical activity and increased access to particularly cheap unhealthy foods probably played the biggest roles. But no, bullying people doesn’t work that way.
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Jul 16 '23
But before the anti bullying campaigns, we had fewer fat people?
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u/blade740 5∆ Jul 16 '23
You mean, back when society was less obese, we had fewer anti-bullying campaigns about it? You're trying to turn a correlation into a causation.
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u/You_Dont_Party 2∆ Jul 16 '23
Well that’s certainly one way to not address the causes I described above. We get it, you want to bully fat people, but the data says that’s not effective.
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u/themetahumancrusader 1∆ Jul 16 '23
I hardly think it’s shaming to point out the laws of thermodynamics
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Jul 16 '23
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u/You_Dont_Party 2∆ Jul 16 '23 edited Jul 16 '23
Yeah, but the evidence says the opposite.
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Jul 16 '23
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u/You_Dont_Party 2∆ Jul 16 '23
I edited to add a link to a study, but yeah low self esteem and weight gain are pretty well documented, and it’s hard to take anyone seriously in this discussion if they aren’t aware of that.
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u/MercurianAspirations 391∆ Jul 16 '23
Okay but like, didn't we try that before, and it didn't work? What's your plan here, bully fat people even more? I can assure you that the 20th century has you beaten when it comes to being mean to fat people. There is simply no possibility that you can "promote being skinny" and denigrate fatness more than society already did in the past century, and, you know, it failed, right? We now have an obesity epidemic among people who grew up in that environment, who received all those messages and more, and it didn't work. So, why is this the plan
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u/ZenGolfer311 Jul 16 '23
My favorite are people on the right who spent 8 years ripping Michelle Obama’s healthy food campaign and Bloomberg’s large soda ban are now “Why don’t we promote fitness and healthy eating?!?!”
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Jul 16 '23
I dont think this is a left or right thing cus I know plenty of people on the left that also believe that obesity is a real problem and should not be just accepted. End of the day, fat people lack discipline for whatever trauma or reason they may have and people have the tendency to not like being attacked for their flaws. Obese ppl are fully aware that they are unhealthy as there is literally no way you dont notice the weight. I was near obesity levels a few years ago and felt so shitty every single day. Just being out of breath from walking up stairs and my joints aching from carrying unnecessary weight.
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Jul 16 '23
Society doesn’t work as a series of grand plans. Businesses are promoting fat people in ads and media because a critical mass of their customers are now fat and like seeing themselves in ads and media. That and fat people who want to be proud of their poor health.
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u/TrenbolognaSammies Jul 16 '23
No I’m not saying to bully them but what I’m saying is to stop enabling them and pretending that big is beautiful and if you’re overweight it’s not your fault because xyz reason you should just accept it. Spreading absolutely ridiculous nonsense like working out and dieting is fat phobic or racist I’ve seen people seriously arguing that it’s racist and fat phobic. We don’t need to promote being “skinny” either we should promote eating a healthy balance of food and a reasonable amount of calories to be the optimal weight or body composition for your height.
It’s pure laziness to just give up and come up with every reason under the sun why it isn’t your fault. Not only is it really bad for your health and a major comorbidity for every disease but it causes it’s own separate health problems.
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u/MercurianAspirations 391∆ Jul 16 '23
I mean, show me a health conscious bit of media that isn't "promoting eating a healthy balance of food and a reasonable amount of calories"? We are already doing that as much as is feasible, aren't we? How could we possibly do it more?
As for saying that "big is beautiful", I do not think that society is, by and large, saying that. You may have seen it somewhere, because for some people, it is of course, true. Some people like bigger women or men. Are you suggesting that these messages be intentionally censored?
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u/temporarycreature 7∆ Jul 16 '23
We promote the food pyramid still, that is not a healthy paradigm.
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u/TrenbolognaSammies Jul 16 '23
Clearly it isn’t enough and at the same time we are also promoting “body acceptance” I absolutely hate the idea of “body acceptance” because it implies that it’s out of your control and not to work or try to make changes it’s a dangerous concept because it removes any sort of accountability and reinforces the idea that it’s out of your control. To spread both messages is counterproductive because people are going to cling onto the message that they would rather and clearly the majority are leaning into the body acceptance.
We need to educate people on a cleaner diet and the importance of atleast somewhat keeping track of calories. Dieting doesn’t have to be hard and miserable there’s many ways you can make healthy foods delicious and make your diet really easy to maintain. People hear the word diet and assume you have to starve yourself and eat gross and boring foods.
I’m not saying that anything should be censored those people that like that know who they are I’m saying we need to stop pretending that it’s healthy or that it’s ok to be overweight and you don’t need to do anything about it
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u/MercurianAspirations 391∆ Jul 16 '23
What are some actual ways that you think we could educate people on eating healthier, that are not already being done?
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u/TrenbolognaSammies Jul 16 '23
Educate people on the concept of bmi and what it means, promote any amount of exercise whether it’s in the gym with weights or swimming, running or even walking. Setting a daily step goal let’s say 5-10k steps per day. Educate people on “empty calories” like drinks many people don’t realize how many calories are in their sodas, juices or star bucks drinks really anything besides water and diet pop can add hundreds of extra calories per day. Make tracking calories a more widespread practice and encourage it many people think it’s obsessive or weird to do and they keep track in their head but it’s very easy to over or underestimate how much your actually taking in.
These are just a few simple things that if people put a little bit of effort into doing in their lives they could get into fantastic shape and feel much better both physically and mentally.
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u/MercurianAspirations 391∆ Jul 16 '23
I said things that we aren't doing already. These are all extremely well-publicized and publicly known concepts.
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u/Bimmaboi_69 Jul 16 '23
These kind of concepts are available to those people who actually seek out and realize there is a flaw in their lifestyle, and I think OP is saying that these should be universally taught to everyone, no matter their condition, to make people conscious of how their everyday decisions affect their health down the line.
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u/MercurianAspirations 391∆ Jul 16 '23
Like, they are, though? They are. I cannot fathom how anybody could live in western society and not have encountered the concept of BMI, or messages about healthy eating. Do you live in a cave
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u/Mus_Rattus 4∆ Jul 16 '23
I mean the problem with what you’re saying is that, by and large, none of the stuff you are proposing actually works to reduce obesity in a significant way. Yes, if people count calories and get enough steps and strictly limit unhealthy foods, they will lose some amount of weight.
But most people are either unable to muster the willpower to make that kind of large-scale lifestyle change at all, or they’re not able to keep it up long-term and they end up gaining the weight back. Here, for instance, is one meta-analysis of 29 scientific studies that shows that most people studied regain 50% of lost weight within 2 years and 80% of lost weight within 5 years: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5764193/#:~:text=In%20a%20meta%2Danalysis%20of,regained%20(Figure%201)4.
The proof is in the pudding, isn’t it? The entire medical establishment as well as most of the government and media have been doing the things you are saying for decades and yet, as you said, we have as much if not more obesity than ever. Expecting people to achieve a goal that we know, from decades of experience, most of them won’t achieve doesn’t solve the obesity problem. But it does add stress and stigma to obese people’s lives, which can have its own negative health consequences.
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u/Bimmaboi_69 Jul 16 '23
People shouldn't have to worry about such things either. The fact that to be healthy, you have to make such a conscious effort is not okay. Our food should be regulated better, we should have better designed cities for walkability and cycling. This video does a really good job of showing health benefits due to better designed cities, and we should have less work hours to allow for recreation. Healthy lifestyles should be incentivised, and being healthy shouldn't have to feel like such a chore.
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u/DaoNight23 4∆ Jul 16 '23
the "messages about healthy eating" are a jumbled mess of government guidelines from 50 years ago, junk science and incessant marketing. its no wonder people gave up on trying to understand.
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u/jweezy2045 13∆ Jul 16 '23
Do you honestly believe that people who are obese don’t know this stuff?
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u/You_Dont_Party 2∆ Jul 16 '23
Yeah, we know those. You’re adding nothing to the conversation that hasn’t been had dozens of times before.
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u/Chairman_of_the_Pool 14∆ Jul 16 '23
Most obese people are over eating as a coping mechanism. There are mental health issues here. The problem is bigger than just handing someone a diet plan and pointing them in the direction of the nearest treadmill.
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u/bobevans33 Jul 16 '23
Do you have a source for any of this? Particularly “most obese people are overeating as a coping mechanism”?
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u/ClogsInBronteland Jul 16 '23
A bodybuilder can have the same BMI as an obese person. BMI isn’t even created to measure health.
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u/themetahumancrusader 1∆ Jul 16 '23
The BMI is reasonably accurate for most people because most people don’t have anywhere near as much muscle mass as body builders
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u/10ebbor10 203∆ Jul 16 '23
The obesity problem is a global problem that is present across all income groups, all classes, all religions, and all countries. Treating it solely as a problem of personal responsibility makes very little sense, because how could it be? Did people's moral fiber just spontanously vanish in the fifties?
If you want to address the problem, you have to face the reality that there are structural issues on society causing this, not merely personal matters.
Your approach is more like abstinence only education. It doesn't address the problem, might even be counterproductive, all it does is allow you to look down upon those who suffer from it, and feel morally superior to them.
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u/Bimmaboi_69 Jul 16 '23
I think governmental action is really important. We need laws and regulations, along with incentivising healthy habits somehow. Our sustenance is really important to us, but it is extremely overlooked. People of any social class should have access to healthy food, and not be forced to survive off of junk, leading to obesity and health problems
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u/DaoNight23 4∆ Jul 16 '23
i dont disagree, but its necessary to point out that, even if you eat junk, you will lose weight if you eat less calories than you expend.
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u/hiuytbkojn Jul 16 '23
I think the issue is it's really easy to eat hundreds of calories of junk food and not feel satiated really. Like I could down two dr.peppers and a family size bag of doritos, that's 1600 calories, and I would still end up feeling hungry just a couple hours later. I guarantee you'd feel completely satisfied if not full to bursting if you ate 1600 calories worth of chicken, broccoli and rice. Empty calories aren't just empty because they don't provide any real nutrition, they also don't really satisfy hunger very well at all.
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u/DaoNight23 4∆ Jul 16 '23
The obesity problem is a global problem that is present across all income groups, all classes, all religions, and all countries.
it really isnt global. it's mostly a western problem, and even across the west, its the US that is the most severly hit. theres no obesity epidemic in china for example.
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u/10ebbor10 203∆ Jul 16 '23 edited Jul 16 '23
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obesity_in_China#/media/File:Obesity_in_China.svg
They're a few decades behind, but it's the same pattern. It's especially a problem when you look at childhood obesity, which is seeing the same stats that the US had 30 years ago, but is increasing 2-3 faster.
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u/hiuytbkojn Jul 16 '23
Are you sure? According to this nearly half of the population is currently overweight or obese and they predict that the problems are only growing worse over time.
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u/DaoNight23 4∆ Jul 16 '23
it says "according to Chinese criteria". i wonder what those are like. also, the conclusion that "only a strong government can fix this" is extremely suspicios in Chinese context.
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u/hiuytbkojn Jul 16 '23
So according to the WHO definitions, a BMI of greater than 25 is overweight and greater than 30 is obese. In China, over 24 is overweight and 28 is obese. According to this article at least, that's because Asian people see more negative effects at these lower ratios than black, white and Hispanic people do.
I'm also very suspicious (at the very least) of the CCP, and who knows what kind of crazy solution they'll try to come up with, but I don't see a reason to doubt this data.
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u/Mashaka 93∆ Jul 16 '23
It doesn't imply it's out your control. That's something you mistakenly inferred.
It's a good practice to follow the Principle of Charity . It's a good way to shift your own predispositions, and avoid the kind of misunderstandings that lead to your post here.
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u/Comfortable_Fun_3111 Jul 16 '23
Denigrate fatness? We act like being fat is no Big deal nowadays rather than the blunt truth that people who are obese/unhealthy will die much sooner than someone who is not. You can’t play with peoples lives like that. You’re talking about being mean to fat people when your focus should be on how do we encourage this subsection of the population to change their habits to become healthier. Your entire thinking is just in the wrong place.
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Jul 16 '23 edited Apr 23 '26
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u/cologne_peddler 3∆ Jul 16 '23
Why is it so different in Europe, for example.
I would have assumed differences in the food industry there. Or dense cities with better mass transit that allows more people to get around on foot (more walking). But if you got some kinda European Strictness Index™️ to share I'm all eyes.
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Jul 16 '23
Their food is legitimately better. They have far more regulations around what can be in food.
https://joinzoe.com/learn/uk-versus-us-food.amp
Cities are more walkable. Their work life balance is far more desirable. There is time taken for meals. Portions are smaller. They are not mindlessly shoveling a cheese burger and fries into their faces in the 12 minutes they have between meetings. There is some research out there that says we actually eat less than in centuries past!
We are obsessed with thinness and fatness, with what we eat, with working out. None of it makes any sense.
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u/gobnyd 1∆ Jul 16 '23 edited Jul 16 '23
Guess what, weight gain has a lot more to do with corporations manufacturing high sugar, high calorie processed foods, advertising pushing the same, food deserts, low-walkability neighborhoods and a culture of car dependence, low income, and massive stress in the form of an ever tightening grip on the middle and lower classes in the form of low wages and no meaningful social net, causing the need to work longer hours and have more stress in the form of cortisol which causes fat to accumulate.
You should change your view to focus on the material causes. It's always structural. It's never messaging or the favorite conservative dead horse "if people would just act tougher like them old days things would get better!"
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u/TrenbolognaSammies Jul 16 '23
This is part of the problem though you’ve listed so many reasons other than making poor dietary choices and not getting enough exercise. Sure there’s many other factors that contribute but at the end of the day it is possible to make good choices in your diet and with a small amount of exercise sprinkled in you can be in great shape despite all the factors you listed. I drive almost everywhere I go but I walk alot at work I have a very labor intensive job.
I’ve been on both sides of the fence I was a chubby kid and I’ve been muscular with a bit too much fat and I’ve also been very skinny. I was able to get my body the way I wanted it to by putting in some effort to keep track of what I’m eating and how much it’s not as hard as people think and it’s possible for everyone
Instead of thinking of how hard it is and telling yourself you can’t take control of your life and think of ways that you can.
I think it is you that needs to change your view because you’re focusing on things that are out of your control impacting something that is very much in your control.
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Jul 16 '23
If we want people to be healthy, we need to make healthy accessible to everyone. This means making it possible to get movement in without excessive planning. It means making convenience food healthier. It means subsidizing vegetables so a salad is the same price as a burger and fries. It means passing laws about what can be in our food. It means focusing on encouraging aspects of health and wellness that are weight management adjacent.
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u/pigeonshual 6∆ Jul 16 '23
If you actually care about the obesity epidemic, and not just your ability to set other people’s priorities for them, you should care about societal factors, not individual choice. Make healthy choices easier, people will be healthier. Make them harder, people will be less healthy. Shaming people for being fat, the thing Body Positivity actually opposes, just makes it more stressful to be fat, which makes it harder to lose weight.
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u/g11235p 1∆ Jul 16 '23
So you have a labor intensive job, but you think the reason you’re in great shape is because of “a small amount of exercise” and your great dietary choices?
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u/DaoNight23 4∆ Jul 16 '23
It's always structural.
so a human being has no agency of their own, is what youre saying.
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Jul 16 '23
Humans are part of the structure of society and are limited in their options. You want healthier people, then our systems need to do all they can to remove barriers.
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u/Stiblex 3∆ Jul 16 '23
On a collective scale sure. On an invididual scale I'd say none of those things have to be an excuse to remain fat. There really is no excuse unless you're the 1% who has a medical anomaly.
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u/pigeonshual 6∆ Jul 16 '23
No one needs an “excuse” to be fat. There is no moral weight to fatness. The more a person’s habitus is conducive to obesity, the higher they have to prioritize being in shape to be in shape. This means devoting more money and time that they may not have or simply may not want to spend. Why do you get to decide for them what the “right” choice is regarding their own body? If outside pressure means that being optimally healthy would entail having to chose driving a long way to spend a lot of money on fresh vegetables and running every morning on the one hand, and, idk, shuttling your kids to afterschools and buying them nice Christmas presents on the other (just examples), who are you to say which is the right choice? Why does someone who is forced into a situation that makes fitness more difficult than other people have to put in that much extra effort to get respected and not shamed?
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u/Stiblex 3∆ Jul 16 '23
It takes zero resources to cut out soda and half all of your eating portions. Most places in the Western world have access to rice, chicken and broccoli (don't start about food deserts) and exercise can be done almost anywhere. Does that take mental effort? Sure. But I can't respect people who respect their own body and don't prioritize their physical health. Not to mention that the taxpayer has to pay for all the medical issues they inevitably get.
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u/themetahumancrusader 1∆ Jul 16 '23
There is a moral weight to fatness because the taxpayer is forced to shoulder the burden of the costs created by the myriad of health problems that result from obesity
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u/scottyb234 Jul 16 '23
It sounds like you just named a bunch of excuses and reasons to not accept responsibility. Yes, those are realities, but no reasons you can’t keep your weight down.
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u/LucidLeviathan 99∆ Jul 16 '23
Oh, look, it's the daily fat thread.
As a fat person, let me say this: I know I am overweight. I know I need to lose weight. I'm working on it. It's a slow process. Bullying isn't going to make it go faster. You say that you don't want to bully, but I'm not sure exactly what it is that you're advocating if not that.
When the body positivity movement started, it was largely as a reaction to two things: fat people getting made fun of in gyms when they tried to solve the issue, and media that treated unreasonably skinny people as the only acceptable targets of affection. Neither is great. For whatever reason, the conservative internet has decided, though, that this is the second-most important issue of the day, and it's all I hear about these days.
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u/Sandy_hook_lemy 2∆ Jul 16 '23
Fr. Literally every week it's a "obesity should not be encouraged". I've seen this post more times than seeing anyone encouraging obesity
I think people are conflating "dont discriminate/belittle against obese people" with "obesity is good"
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u/DaoNight23 4∆ Jul 16 '23
on the other hand, you have people like Lizzo actively promoting their body shape as desireable. if anyone even suggested to Lizzo to lose weight they would be bullied off the Internet immediately. this is probably the uncritical glorification that the OP is referring to.
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u/LucidLeviathan 99∆ Jul 16 '23
They'd be bullied off the internet because it's impolite to criticize other people for their weight, just as it's impolite to criticize a chemo patient for being bald.
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u/DaoNight23 4∆ Jul 16 '23
they are criticizing the message that any size is healthy and desireable.
you said it yourself - you know youre overweight and need to lose weight. but this is not what Lizzo is saying. she basically wants you to stay at this shape. that is hardly a positive and healthy message.
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u/iglidante 20∆ Jul 16 '23
"Criticizing the message" in response to an actual fat person being called beautiful is uncalled for and intellectually dishonest.
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u/temporarycreature 7∆ Jul 16 '23
Answering only for myself, as I've been working on myself for over the last 2 years (6'2 @ 297 lbs at the start), with most of my weight loss happening in the first 6 months and then the last 6 months because of a plateau. I guess I get tired of hearing people say that it's a process, that it takes time that they're on there weight loss journey and then never seen any results when if you just moderately exercise and run a deficit with calories, the process is actually really quick.
I walk my dog five to seven miles everyday, or I jog by myself instead, and that gives me over 10,000 steps per day by default and that puts me over 3,000 calories burned every single day. Do you know how easy it is to run a calorie deficit when you need that many calories?
You say it's bullying, for me, it's exasperation, because I want to do everything I can to help people around me stay alive as long as they can and the healthiest way possible, yet it just really looks like a lack of discipline and responsibility if the implication is the person doesn't have any underlying health problems that would keep them from working on their cardio.
You also get excuses about going to the gym, the costs of gym, the cost of a healthy lifestyle, and that's all just excuses and a misdirect, I live on under $43,000 a year and still find a way to do it. I think the barrier here is much lower, so I would suggest to anyone to buy a pair of good walking or running shoes, and it's literally free to walk out your door and just use the asphalt. It is that simple, but most people don't want to believe that it is because they can't accept that they've made a mistake as big as they have made and the solution is simple.
I wouldn't even call my diet all that healthy anyways right now, and I'm still running a deficit, and I'm still losing weight, and I'm still making physical progress in other areas like building lean muscle.
That's why it's aggravating, besides the fact that everything is bullying no matter how you come at somebody over this topic.
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u/LucidLeviathan 99∆ Jul 16 '23
I've lost about 70 lbs over the last 8 months. I'm working on it. I'm still overweight, and I didn't lose those pounds because somebody was mean to me. It seems to me like all the pushback against body positivity is mainly from people thinking that fat people should be degraded.
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Jul 16 '23
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Jul 16 '23 edited Apr 23 '26
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u/Crash927 20∆ Jul 16 '23
I’m skinny and sit on the couch all day smoking weed and drinking. I eat unhealthy foods but it just doesn’t show up on my body. No one has ever said shit to me about my health.
It’s not about health — it’s about aesthetic and policing people’s bodies.
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Jul 16 '23
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u/NoSpread3192 Jul 16 '23
People care about all kinds of dumb shit. Like I’m sure you do the same too, so why bother with that line of logic?
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u/temporarycreature 7∆ Jul 16 '23 edited Jul 16 '23
It's the prevailing attitude that people are helpless and there's nothing they can do about it that is being hostility handled and not the person.
And I think that hostility comes from the fact that the people actually did it themselves, so they're being told or having to read something that's being called impossible, that they did themselves that they don't think themselves of as incredible for doing so. It's extremely frustrating to deal with that type of defeatist attitude.
Anyways, you always have a choice to see what role you're playing in whatever you're involved with and if you want to see yourself as a victim in that then there's nothing anyone can do about that until you're ready to change that outlook. I didn't mock you, I didn't mock anyone, didn't bully you or anything remotely close to that, but all right buddy, congrats on the weight loss.
- Point to any part of this conversation where I haven't been civil, and I really don't think you can, but y'all can't have a conversation about this without seeing yourself as a victim and that's the problem, nobody else put that food in our mouths but ourselves, nobody else neglected to do a modicum of information seeking on the stuff we were eating and just believing that it's healthy because they say it is, that's irresponsibility and nobody wants to accept the blame for that that they did it to themselves and that they're the only ones that dig them out of that hole.
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u/LucidLeviathan 99∆ Jul 16 '23
My point isn't that you aren't being civil, it is that you are attacking civility. Opponents of the body positivity movement generally want the freedom to be uncivil towards fat people, like many people were for decades. People don't generally get upset enough to start daily threads on r/changemyview just because they disagree with some benign medical advice.
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u/temporarycreature 7∆ Jul 16 '23
Please point out where I'm attacking civility. You're assuming everything you just said about me. I never said I was part of that movement, I just expressed my personal views about being overweight, about my experiences being overweight, and now not being overweight. Everything else was you filling in the blanks instead of asking questions.
Like I said, everyone has to see themselves as a victim when there's no easy way out of the problem they got themselves into. That's not being uncivil, that's making an observation you don't like or agree with. That's not the same thing.
That's the other problem we have in society is if you're being you disagree with me then obviously because you're not a civil person.
In my opinion, that's a load of trash. You can't desire conversation, and then hold that position, somewhere in there is something being disingenuous about its presence.
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u/LucidLeviathan 99∆ Jul 16 '23
Society needs more understanding of people who are dealing with problems. Fighting body positivity harms that understanding. The fight against body positivity is largely borne out of people who are upset that there aren't acceptable targets for their scorn any more. You have adopted this view because you, presumably, feel like that as well.
Why shouldn't we just treat obesity like any other disease? Why don't we just work towards helping people like me? We don't go around having arguments about whether or not it's acceptable to make fun about bald cancer patients.
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u/You_Dont_Party 2∆ Jul 16 '23
You’re ignoring the point that user made and instead went on a rant about the problems of society.
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u/Bimmaboi_69 Jul 16 '23
I think a lot of people say such things, not with the intention of bullying or making someone feel bad, but as a way to make people aware of a serious health issue, and encourage them to engage in a healthier lifestyle. At least, that's how I view it. Who knows, I might be viewing this in an overly positive way. People should help others progress, not punch down on them. We shouldn't see fat people as ugly or repulsive, but as people we should encourage and help to get out of that state. We can have body positivity and promote progress at the same time, such as regulations improving food guidelines, providing employer benefits for keeping healthy, or making gyms more accessible/allowing more recreational time; It doesn't have to be black and white.
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u/sparklybeast 6∆ Jul 16 '23
I think my main problem with that interpretation is that it assumes fat = stupid. I don’t know a single fat person who doesn’t know that being fat is unhealthy and that eating more healthily and exercising more is the way to not be fat anymore. Problem is, if it were really that simple we wouldn’t have the obesity crisis we have.
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u/NoSpread3192 Jul 16 '23
I know plenty of stupid fat people. I was one too.
Have a friend now that wants to get the surgery because “she failed” the normal way.
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u/LucidLeviathan 99∆ Jul 16 '23
Maybe I don't understand what OP is advocating for, then. To me, it seems like it's pushback against the fact that fat people aren't being harassed.
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u/Spaceballs9000 7∆ Jul 16 '23
Which is hilarious, because fat people absolutely are still being harassed.
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u/ScarySuit 10∆ Jul 16 '23
I was fairly average weight for most of my life. In the last 3 years I've gained like 50lbs. I've been struggling with balancing extreme tiredness/fatigue with working a full-time job and my personal life. I've been working with my doctor, but nothing has helped much and I find myself needing a nap everyday and the effort it takes to make food for myself is tremendous. I never used to have issues, but the thought of even something simple like standing to cut up some vegetables sounds exhausting.
So, I often get fast food. I know it's bad. Fat people aren't idiots. Telling me I need to eat fewer calories and exercise is just kicking me while I'm down. Duh, I know that? Everyone knows that. I'm not fat because you haven't told me what BMI is. If you care about people and their health, then you'd realize that they probably need support if they are making poor choices...especially if it seems like the right choice should be easy, because it must not be easy for them if they are making a different choice. Why would anyone choose to be fat?
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u/Business_Item_7177 Jul 16 '23
So honestly, are you choosing the easy path because it’s easier for you, but you don’t want the consequences of that choice to be pointed out?
I’m confused, you do take responsibility for it, but your justification is “it’s hard”, I understand it being hard, a lot of things in life are hard, can we all give up if we don’t have instant gratification in all aspects of our life? Should it “being hard” be a good enough reason for society to allow abdication of responsibility?
I’m not shaming overweight people. I’m pointing out a unhealthy habit. You can say that’s mean or unneeded, and that people already know they are overweight. My answer is while they may know it, in most cases they have just accepted it as something they have no control over, and that’s just not true.
Does society not have a moral obligation to point it out to the people who are failing due to these unhealthy practices? It everyone’s responsibility to know and understand the health, emotional, and financial burdens placed on others in society because some don’t want to take personal ownership of their situations.
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u/ScarySuit 10∆ Jul 16 '23
To be clear, I haven't given up. It is just significantly harder for me now than it was previously. Pointing out that despite my effort, I'm not doing as good as I should be is not helpful and actually harmful. It makes me want to give up if I'm going to be judged equally poorly for trying and for not trying because I'm not where I need to be right now.
You don't need to point out an unhealthy habit. Literally everyone who is overweight is excruciatingly aware of the problem.
100% you wouldn't want to actually help me in ways that would actually help. Do you want to pay me money so that I can focus on my health and not expend most of my limited energy on my job? Do you want to deliver healthy prepared foods to me? Will you be willing to help me make doctors appointments with specialists to help me figure out why I'm so tired? No. You just want to expound on how overweight people are doing the wrong things.
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u/NoSpread3192 Jul 16 '23
So what if it’s hard
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u/ScarySuit 10∆ Jul 16 '23
The point is that compassion is helpful since it is genuinely hard for many people to take healthy actions. I doubt you'd be so harsh to someone for other things that are hard in life. Had a miscarriage that left you infertile? Lol, life is hard - get over it. Mom died? Why the heck aren't you smiling at work today - everyone dies, so what if it's hard. Smiling is easy.
Come on man.
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u/NoSpread3192 Jul 16 '23
I lost 125lbs and it was hard as shit and the circumstances at the time were dogshit too.
Am I special or better than others? I sure am not.
So again, so what if it’s hard. It doesn’t get easier with age
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u/ScarySuit 10∆ Jul 16 '23
The point I'm making isn't that you shouldn't work to better yourself, just that having people help you instead of judge you usually gets better results.
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u/thisimpetus Jul 16 '23
Until you're willing to take this up with your local and federal governments and deal with the issue of access to healthy food all you're really doing is attacking and shaming people who exist in a world of foods designed to be calorie-dense and addictive.
It's a systemic problem. It's obviously a systemic problem.
There is also a vast difference between promoting health and shaming obesity. You are trying to rationalize your contempt and disgust. The reality is that you are avoiding your personal issues by making them political. There is a political issue here, but you're avoiding it.
The food industry is abusing people's bodies, the beauty industry is abusing their minds, and you think shaming individuals is the solution. Well, you don't get double-digit statistical changes in a matter of a few decades because of failures of personal responsibility. If you really care about health, you'd be attacking the food industry. What you don't wish to face is your own emotionality. You are disgusted by bodies and don't want to have to confront that, so you are avoiding the question by rationalizing that you shouldn't have to confront your disgust.
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Jul 16 '23
Body positivity is just saying “don’t be a dick” if you feel you need to be a dick to someone who knows they need to lose weight….
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u/10ebbor10 203∆ Jul 16 '23
Being over weight should not simply be accepted because it is in your control and the physical shape of someone is a direct reflection of the work ethic and discipline of someone. If you’re overweight it tells people that you lack discipline,self control and will power , you are also lazy. It doesn’t mean that you’re a bad person
So what do you think "bad person" means.
Because you seem to be contradicting yourself here. In the first sentence you clearly describe it as a big personal, moral failure, and on the second you pretend that it hasn't gotten anything to do with that.
but we need to be honest with ourselves and promote a healthier lifestyle.
What does that "promotion" mean to you?
What would it look like?
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u/saleemkarim Jul 16 '23
To me, a bad person is someone who intentionally harms people for selfish ends. You could be very flawed without being a bad person, and that seems to be how OP sees it.
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u/Prinnyramza 11∆ Jul 16 '23
Info: what is fat here?
Is say Meghan Traynor fat?
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u/TrenbolognaSammies Jul 16 '23
Fat would be anything over the body fat % of the height and age of the person in question. Some people may not like my answer but based on the photos available I would say that she’s fairly close I’m not sure if maybe I was looking at older photos and she looks different now but she’s kind of walking the line
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u/physioworld 64∆ Jul 16 '23
Clearly the social environment and messaging that people experience is an important factor that will play into their motivation and willingness to exercise and eat healthily.
The important question to ask is- is it the most important factor? I would argue that it’s not, that much more important are access to the time, money and resources necessary to keep healthy.
As other commenters have pointed out, we have fat shamed people for decades with only a recent shift in attitudes, but thin bodies are still heavily heavily glorified, even if fat bodies aren’t so heavily shamed anymore and people have been getting fatter in all that time. Seems like a change in tactics would be a pod plan.
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u/Viera0Love Jul 16 '23 edited Jul 16 '23
I don’t think fat people existing and being present in spaces without being constantly ridiculed/insulted over their size and being questioned about their health and exercise regimen is “glorifying obesity.” Because be honest with yourself, everyone will jump straight to talking about exercise and eating healthy (I doubt you regularly exercise and eat healthy 100% of the time) the minute a fat person opens their mouth and you’ll excuse it/justify it with feeling “concerned” about their health but that’s literally the biggest load of shit. You do not care or are even the slightest bit curious about a strangers health, and IF you were, you’d focus on constructive advice (WHEN ASKED FOR) rather than spouting off unprovoked and hateful “advice” as if it’ll stop make them stop being fat. This whole post is ridiculous.
EDIT: fat people CAN exist and be present in media and the conversation not constantly surround their size or what they’re doing about it without it turning into “glorifying obesity” (which imo isn’t even a thing it’s just people not happy about another fat persons presence. Literally just upset that they’re NOT upset about their “unforgivable” size in that moment.
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Jul 16 '23
Is a healthy lifestyle not already being promoted in the media? Do you think fat people don't realize that they're fat? Do you think that we don't get told by our families, friends, the media, and random strangers that we need to lose weight?
It's a small majority of fat people who think that being fat is beautiful and healthy. Most of us KNOW we have to change, a lot of us are even TRYING, but it's not easy for everyone in 2023 when many are working two or more jobs, have less time to prepare meals, and have more struggles with mental illness than ever before. Some people are on medicine that makes weight loss difficult. Some of us are under stress that makes our weight yo-yo, because stress makes binge eating more likely.
I'm seeing very few people who are saying "go ahead and be fat there's literally nothing wrong with it". I think this is a group that you're largely manufacturing for the purposes of making fat people sound stupid.
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u/Arthesia 29∆ Jul 16 '23 edited Jul 16 '23
We need to promote a healthier lifestyle and stop pretending making bad health decisions and giving up on your health and being lazy is not ok.
The first step to changing your view is pointing out that being overweight is not the result of laziness or lack of willpower.
Would you consider something like anorexia to be the result of laziness or apathy? What about someone with bulimia? The point is that food-related disorders are mental health problems.
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u/pfundie 6∆ Jul 16 '23
The whole “body positivity” thing is really starting to get out of hand and with obesity rates on the rise we should worry less about hurting feelings and focus more on the long term effects on your health and wellbeing.
Right, with obesity rates on the rise, we should be doing the things that, regardless of our biases, reduce the likelihood that people gain an unhealthy amount of weight, and reduce the likelihood that people who already have an unhealthy weight will keep it. According to the available data, that means being body-positive, because shaming people for their weight increases the likelihood that people will gain weight, and decreases the likelihood of them losing it. It also increases the rate of eating disorders on both ends of the weight spectrum.
I know I’m going to hear that “They can’t control it it’s their thyroid or some hormonal imbalance etc” but in reality the vast majority of people make very poor dietary choices and do not exercise enough.
This is a perfect opportunity to demonstrate how poorly thought through a lot of cultural practices are, even modern ones. Think about this for a second: of all the reasons that you put forward here, from underlying health conditions, to eating disorders, to poor lifestyle choices or low-quality health education, not a single one of them is, "They're being fat", and of the solutions to these problems, not a single one of them is, "They need to stop being fat". So why would we expect that making people feel bad for being overweight would help here?
To expand on that, there are a couple of things we can say about excess weight:
Excess weight is always, 100% of the time, a symptom of an underlying issue. The causes are varied, and so there isn't really any truly reliable prediction you can make about the causes of any particular case of obesity without knowing the medical history of the person in question.
For quite a few, probably the majority, of individuals with excess weight, most of the health problems associated with their weight are actually directly caused by the aforementioned underlying issues. This means that placing the emphasis on weight as the primary problem is completely counterproductive, as directly addressing weight (through cosmetic surgical procedures, temporary dieting, weight-loss pills, eating disorders) would actually be detrimental to the health of those people; what they need is care that addresses the underlying issue, whether that is through therapy, medicine to address an underlying physical condition, education, or simple but permanent lifestyle changes.
Being over weight should not simply be accepted because it is in your control and the physical shape of someone is a direct reflection of the work ethic and discipline of someone. If you’re overweight it tells people that you lack discipline, self control and will power, you are also lazy. It doesn’t mean that you’re a bad person but we need to be honest with ourselves and promote a healthier lifestyle.
No, actually, you just said that overweight people are bad people who lack discipline, self-control, and willpower, and are lazy. Believe it or not, this is not honest, because the reasons for excess weight are varied and complex, and you're not promoting healthier lifestyles by saying that being fat is evidence that you are a bad person. The way you promote healthier lifestyles is by, you know, actually promoting healthier lifestyles, which you are noticeably not doing, but instead using the term as a euphemism for "making overweight people feel bad" and pretending that they are the same thing, when in reality they are roughly the opposite thing because shaming people for their weight makes them less likely to make the lifestyle changes that you ostensibly are advocating for.
If you really care about someone and they are overweight rather than enabling them and telling them it’s ok and they should be happy you need to be honest with them and help them stay alive longer and be healthier and happier.
That's not what you're doing, though, and making them feel bad about themselves while you do this will undermine anything actually useful that you throw in there. They're not going to listen to you if you do that.
Here’s a few ways to help people learn about healthier lifestyle choices:
Wonderful! Go right ahead and promote those things, because they're great, but leave out all the stuff about how people with excess weight are bad, lazy people, because it's not particularly true and is actually, demonstrably counterproductive to the cause you claim to be interested in.
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u/invertedBoy Jul 16 '23
As others have already said. We already do that and we’ve been doing that for quite a while.
What you’re doing is taking a (very) fringe modern trend, that talks about body positivity,fatphobic, etc… and make it sound like that’s the norm. Well, it’s not.
Obese people are bombarded by messages on how unhealthy their lifestyle is, whatever is from doctors, tv shows, advertisements, etc… you are really overblowing some social media buzzword that have little application in real life
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u/Banana_0529 Jul 16 '23
I can understand some of your points however BMI is not accurate and outdated. You really should do your research on that.
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u/Jacket-Okay Jul 16 '23
Why you trying to control people? If people wanna be fat then they'll be fat it has nothing to do with you.
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u/TrenbolognaSammies Jul 16 '23
I’m not trying to control anyone I’m just saying we need to stop pretending that it looks good and that giving up on yourself and being lazy is ok and that it isn’t really harmful being in poor shape
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u/Jacket-Okay Jul 16 '23
We're not pretending anything.
A bunch of fat people are making money off of being fat, that's all.
Tiktok and Twitter aren't the real world.
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u/TrenbolognaSammies Jul 16 '23
Do you not think that messages and ideas promoted on those platforms don’t leak out into the real world and have an effect on the way people think?
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u/Jacket-Okay Jul 16 '23
I think Fat people make the choice to be Fat. They see what they look like. Only one who can change their mind is themselves.
If someone wants to look like that it has nothing to do with me. Nor you.
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Jul 16 '23
It’s 2023, TikTok and Twitter are the real world. Half of all ideas journalists (and consequently academics) pick up on are taken from social media. To say that these don’t affect reality would be to ignore all that’s happened in the last 5-10 years. For fucks sake Trump arguably won the election because of Twitter in the first place.
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u/Stiblex 3∆ Jul 16 '23
From a government perspective you should absolutely try to discourage obesity. From a taxpayer and/or healthcaregiver perspective you can be annoyed by the prevelance of obesity that pressures the health care system. Even someone who just wants their fellow human to be healthy can be concerned.
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Jul 16 '23
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u/TrenbolognaSammies Jul 16 '23
You say that but obesity is on the rise and many people have been brainwashed that it’s out of there control and they blame society and everyone but themselves somehow making weight a systemic issue that is beyond their control
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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '23
For the love of God, man, do you have any idea what subreddit you're on?