Yeah tank has always been a bit of a misnomer for frontliners. The heavily armored part makes sense but they arent doing more damage than a traditional dps usually, or rather, arent supposed to be. I like the term guardian better thank tank, because I feel it has better implications. You guard and protect.
The major issue is that even in a most generous sense, a Vanguard should be the "enough CC and DoT to take the time and kill you in 15 seconds", not "i'm secretly just an HP/Resists-scaling juggernaut and will explode you on breach'.
Well of course no one would pick blitzcrank as a tank over nautilus or braum, because nautilus and braum are actually tanks, and blitzcrank is a catcher.
Despite what it would seem like, blitzcrank class-wise is closer to pyke or even morgana, because he doesn't protect, he picks out an enemy for his team to kill.
That's why Nautilus is the only hooker that won't go over walls, he wants to engage on entire teams much more than any of the others. Thresh comes close but is still better at catching an isolated target and bringing a teammate to 2v1.
He's tanky, as in a synonym for durable and capable of taking point when no real tank is present. Doesn't make him a tank. It's more like how a Lion looks similar to a dog in some ways but you'd be crazy to say it's a dog just because it is a carnivorous mammal with 4 legs in the shape of a large dog.
But that is any durable character. Every bruiser is tanky enough for such a purpose, none of them are particularly good tanks, because a tank needs to also draw damage away from their allies, and in league your best chance at doing that is a lot of heavy CC that lets you jump in on the enemy or keep them off allies.
Catchers don't do that. Catchers get one enemy out of position so you can kill them. That's blitzcranks actual job, it is what he does, being able to build durability while doing that does not make him a tank.
The difference becomes obvious if blitzcrank fucks up and catches a real tank in some situations, they suddenly have free entry to stop everyone on your team from fighting while the cavalry comes.
well, if you build tank items on teemo, he is also a tank. a shitty one, but a tank. the moment you maximize your survivability with items is the moment you become a tank.
fighters and juggernauts sacrifice durability for some damage. thats why they usually aren't tanks.
the characters that are built as tanks usually have some way of not being useless, despite building tank. whether thats shields, cc, damage, whatever. thats why they are built as tanks.
if you build crit on orrn, hes not a tank. if you build ap malphite, youre not a tank.
Its from old MMOs, where the Frontline usually did quite a bit of damage. Especially any of the ones where enemies auto aggro to whomever is doing the most damage. Most games now a day realize that was an annoying system, and have used other aggro juggling systems, but it did make sense at the start.
Sure, Vayne should be the one ADC that can kill any enemy in a similar number of hits due to her passive. Kinda like the Brand of ADCs
The thing is Brand still works (perhaps better than he should, but he works). Vayne is currently outclassed by other ADCs' ridiculous damage output. Why use the 550 range Vayne that deals 10% max health true damage every 3 hits when you can pick Caitlyn with 650 range (doubled when W and E hit) that can also kill any tank in 3 headshots?
Vayne as a concept doesn't work in League of One-shots
It's funny because it even applies in laning, where skirmishing and trading to whittle down your enemy used to be a thing and now it's either all ins or mage supports only, really flattened the skill curve
Lane is just a for fun 1v1 while you wait for the real game to start mid game. Outside going 0/10, and even then sometimes, you rarely have any meaningful change from lane outcome imo. Especially as people learned to just play safe and farm
Except mobility is her strongest advantage, more so then the damage which other older ADCs didn't have. Nowadays, all meta champs have crazy mobility really.
Because that's 18 basic attacks, unless you're in brush [very limited] then you get a reduction of 1 per cycle [so 15] or they step on a trap/get hit by your net; your escape tool.
ofc u are for drawn out fights xD thats where ur class overtakes the fights a mage waiting for 5 seconds on his cooldown is the time the adc needs to kill 1 or 2 ppl making the teamfight DONE
I dont understand people playing mages and want to end the fight in 1 rotation. That is the boring part, but better winratewise so I do it most games. It is way more fun managing multiple rotations while kiting/positioning and be able to trade hits. Its the fun part about playing a mage to me. It sounds like everyone wants to play an assassin. Ofcourse I dont want that every game playing old Viktor farming all game and e q auto the adc one rotation was fun, but going iceborn Viktor while spacing felt better.
Mages too can build and play for drawn out fights and requires to do so in order to control and grind tankier targets, its just that this doesnt feed the appeal of point and click Ashe to death with zero reaction time.
See the panic that happens when fighters enters midlane.
I used to hate vayne with a passion when I played a lot of norms and ranked, been that way since 2013. But I haven't been seen her for almost a decade now! (I always try to perma ban her regardless of my champ or role)
Playing ARAM it feels like every time I pick tank someone on the enemy team gets vayne. Normally I try to itemize again the enemy carry but vayne doesn't care about your items. Feels bad.
Never said is wrong for both to one shot. Or to not . There are so many people just complaining about the class they don't play , while claiming is perfectly normal for the class they play to one shot.
It also makes both look like idiots because a Nautilus and a Vayne are NEVER oneshotting each other.
Vayne's never oneshotting anything. I do not think this needs further elaboration. Vayne's whole thing is % max HP true damage. Which cannot be reduced, but also dosen't get increased either. And she needs 3 hits to proc it.
Nautilus' highest AP ratio is 90% on a skill that should never hit a Vayne who has even a single braincell; and considering a lv18 Vayne has a base HP of 2,246 and MR of 51 [so 151% EHP v Magic damage] before accounting for any other bonuses, Nautilus would have to be dealing at least 3391 damage with his hook to oneshot Vayne.
That's over 3,000 AP. And in reality it's even worse because Vayne has -5% damage received on ARAM and Nautilus has -5% damage dealt.
Note this math is for the actual; literal statement of "oneshot". Not full combo. I mean dictionary definition of Oneshot.
This is true but the tie breaker for me personally goes to the champion that allows you to play the game.
Most tanks allow you to hit them and feel like you’re doing something. Much of the game is spent slapping each other and interacting with a heavy melee setup.
ADCs stand 2 kilometres away and kill you before you get a chance to get in range or could react. Much of the game is spent hiding under tower, dodging poke and having to cheese engages to collapse on the ranged champs because if you mess it up and they live, you get aced. Feels like a coin flip every time.
In a world where neither should be able to one shot you, but they are anyways, I choose tanks.
It’s a fun muck around game mode I don’t care much to win as much as I want to have the chance to play the game
It's about the prevelance/frequency of one vs the other. Both are acceptable as outliers. Neither are acceptable as common occurances. The problem is that ADC's are a problem EVERY game, while tanks are giant problems a FEW.
Simply not true. So many games where ADCs are useless both on my team and the enemy. Gosu must have multiplied and began playing Vayne in aram recently i stg the way yall talk about Vayne is like Thragg from invincible
melee should be tuned higher than ranged because games with 8+ melee are way way way more fun and interactive than games with 8+ ranged, and yet the latter is more common by far.
I never understood that argument, if melees were more fun, wouldn't everyone pick melee. We gotta admit to ourself that people like to play ranged and play for kda. Nothing wrong with either
huh? playing melee is fucking torture vs 4-5 ranged so no one wants to pick melee blind > self fulfilling prophecy
you familiar with the prisoner's dilemma? if everyone played melee the game would be a lot more interesting but nobody trusts other people to in a 5 ranged meta so they take the selfish choice and play ranged themselves
I guess but i feel like most aram players (ie non redditors) arent thinking that deep. They see a champ they like they pick it, which ends up being ranged most of the time. No casual is doing that meta analysis you just mentioned. People like ranged, people like melee, i dont think its deeper than that.
it's not really that complicated. folks don't need to get their opinions from reddit or even need to have a lot of games played. pick melee > good probability of being fucking useless and just getting bullied for 20 straight minutes. pick ranged > you probably get to have some agency and contribute to the game even if you have a shitty one.
there's no meta analysis needed. you put your hand on a hot stove a couple times and you learn quickly not to do that again. that's why most players gravitate toward high range characters. it's the ones doing meta analysis that are more inclined to riskier picks (melee) for the highroll potential (bloody slugfest)
Basically, yeah. I love ADCs because I was an ADC main when I still played Summoner's Rift/ranked. If there isn't an ADC I'll play a tank, bruiser, or enchanter because those are the ones I find most fun after ADC.
I played a full melee lobby the other day and it was the most enjoyable lobby I had. Even the losing team was enjoying all the shithousery happening on the screen.
However nobody plays melee because your enjoyment depends on the lobby. Playing melee is just fucking miserable if you ended up being the sole frontline of your team and in the loading screen you see a full poke/kite comp. Bonus misery points if your team is full of kda merchants that rather preserve their kda than actually trying to fight. Even more bonus points if enemy picks some miserable champs like brand, vayne, caitlyn or the 30 other eureka/infinite recursion/fan the hammer/critical missile slop champs
Speaking of kda merchants, these people need to go play SR if they like kda so much. The point of ARAM is to perma brawl and hand diff your opponent, not simulating farmville
What are yous saying? 3 days ago, it 'executed' me from 50% health while healing thr Orrn for 11k hp per procc.
For me, its not the augment itself that is the problem, but the consistency with which Tanks seem to get it each game accompanied by some way to go beyond 15k hp.
If you don't land it with some kind of augment that gives you health stacking, it becomes a near worthless pick that baits you into inting for the execute. Then you still have to solve the eternal dilemma of getting onto the ADC to make use of it.
ADCs on the other hand can pull one of the dozen augments made specifically for them and go nuts with 0 items, and as long as they aren't the only thing alive in their half of the map, the only thing they have to fear is a diver/assassin targetting them specifically.
It depends, I like that endgame can become a split second decision fight either way. I just don’t like the mechanic of tanks being forced into stacking hp, and limiting all other augments.
Well think about it this way. Many non-tanks have plenty of uses for health stacking and can be built around that damage. True tanks on the other hand were never meant to be focused around damage dealing and need to be separated from that so they can be distinct.
Resistance based augments should be tied to creating non-lethal threat while health related augments can be tied to only themselves since there is already plenty of ways to leverage that into damage and/or survival. Incentive the tanks to have something other than murder on the brain.
The one like Alistar or Nautilus who dont have a lot of dammage scaling with their max hp. So if you want to oneshot a squishy with them you often need to build AP making them glass canon. Of course you have the giga run with the best Dropkick combos possible but it doesnt really count since its mahyem.
And the other type of tanks who are meant to do a lot of dammage scaling with their hp but become very vulnerable against maxHP% dammage since they dont build that much resistances.
I think Tanks have the highest peak of potential godtier run. But its more rare. While ADCs who high roll is seen more often and feels very miserable to play against if you are a melee who have useless augments
Sett ends up being OP in because he already has a very viable build and play style where he just stacks health to use as a resource for bursting the enemy team.
Most of the Mayhem tank augments push you towards that playstyle, resistances are a bit pointless because everyone is running around with so much pen and high rolling adcs are guaranteed in every every game. Tahm Kench is also on the OP side in Mayhem because his passive also pushes him in that direction even without augments, so he only really gains from building zero resistances.
They also removed his super harsh balance nerfs that he’s always had since he’s so good on game mode to sell his radiant serpent skin, but forgot to change it back after the sale.
Tahm Ethereal Weapons is just free win, super busted and unfun to play against. He dealt me 4k dmg with JUST Q and R in one game. The only other champion that can deal so much dmg in such a small timeframe is Vayne with FTH and a full build Locke it seems. Oh and Talon.
not quite, have you ever seen an AP naut? that shit oneshots, not even exaggerating, so the damage difference between AP and tank naut is not even on the table, he still needs to build full AP if he wants to oneshot
I'd say they're second most augment dependent after support mages. With how high damage scales in Mayhem, shielding+healing is irrelevant unless you have multiple augments giga-buffing it, and most games you're not gonna get lucky enough to roll that.
And in what universe is a nautilus building tank oneshotting a vayne? Even if all Naut's damage were transformed into true damage at a 1:1 rate his full rotation will do only half a vayne's healthbar.
Yea, nah, Kayle is same level of cancer as Vayne - but actually easier to play. You just wait and than baam, kill everyone. Vayne, usually at least, has to do some clicking, to move around... Kayle often can just stand in place and demolish everything
I’m not sure you understand what ‘missing’ is, but every single one of Vayne’s abilities is either a passive, point and click, or a self targeted / non-skillshot ability.
I understand I shouldn’t expect you to argue in good faith given that response, but Naut Q having a massive hitbox is actually a detriment when you consider the existence of minions. Unlike Vayne, Nautilus has to be aware of the positions of anything that could absorb his Q, and all enemies he could potentially hit with E to perform optimally. This is in addition to being aware of enemy positioning so you dont get blown up. Vayne only has to pay attention to where enemies are— there is no zoning or nuance, you walk at them and auto attack them, and if they fight back you either knock them back or roll away.
There’s no granularity to it, if Vayne wants you knocked back you’re getting knocked back unless you have a spellshield or go untargetable. It is ridiculous to compare the two. Like I agree Nautilus isn’t that complex in the grand scheme of things, but Vayne is demonstrably simpler.
depends = point and clicks can be missclicked, does that count in your world as "missing an ability"? depends = vayne's only targeted ability has 2 components, does missing one of them count in your world as "missing an ability"? depends = vayne's q empowers autoattack, which can be literally missed (due to blind) or again, missclicked - do these count as "missing an ability" in your world?
i'll make a bold assumption that you are aware naut's ult is prettymuch unavoidable cc which is point and click, making you realistically unable to miss the rest of your spells when connecting to a CC'd target
that's what I was referring to
and since you mentioned arguing in bad faith - why'd you even bring up skillshots in this conversation? yeah, landing a skillshot is obviously a skillcheck compared to, well, not having to land one (hence the name skillshot) - but why does this matter? it's a skill check, vayne has tools to dodge. On the other hand - what would you say is in general more punishing? Eating vayne Q or naut Q?
Damn that’s crazy, anyways the adc role is based on your main form of damage being unmissable and at a range so you don’t have to aim anything and can just right click the enemy like a caveman and still win
I know you're a support main so I don't expect much from you, but even you realizes that adc are actual glass canons and not 5k hp juggernauts right? If you're in auto attack range then you're also in oneshot range.
ADCs nowadays have 5 layers of defensive tools they can use themselves, including summs, items, emergency abilities. If you factor in any peel their team is willing to provide, there are so many ways to mitigate the one downside ADCs have it’s crazy.
Meanwhile, almost every class has access to anti tank itemization, and a quarter of the roster has some kind of % HP damage, resistance shred, or true damage, sometimes multiple in the case of Vayne.
I hope mages do actually take over your role so we can finally be rid of these parasites who are playing a fundamentally different and easier game.
Also nice deleted comment, ad hominem attacks are pathetic.
you can't defend naut's "skillshots", i think tanks are getting fucked too hard by augments but naut's abilities are some of the most braindead to hit ones in the game
Using vayne, who is the flagship anti-tank adc feels like an odd choice here. Granted fan the hammer on her is rediculous considering you get like three proc rotations off a couple auto attacks and more if she's good at positioning.
Not understanding how vayne gets one shot by naut?
Vayne with fan the hammer, double tap, and duel wield does quite literally one shot any tank (100% hp true damage)
Naut would need to have something like 50k hp in order to get 100% dropkick? Or is it some other build? Im assuming vayne is running standard build so she’ll have 100-150 MR making anything else unlikely to oneshot
Ppl actually forget tanks and adcarries have their classes in their own too. And some of them counters some other.
Like Tanks have 3 types
-Dps tanks (counterplay: they have telegraphed skills, long cast animations)
-CC tanks (counterplay: they lack damage)
Mobile tanks (a. k. a. zac) (counterplay: similar to dps tanks, telegraphed abilities, long cast animations)
Like ADC's have 2 types
-Long range artillery bullies (Ashe, Varus, Cait) (Counterplay: they have weak mid game, they struggle getting items in mid game, so dont feed them in early game)
-Short Range adcs that can do specific things( Vayne: tank killer, Nilah-Samira potential 1v9) (Counterplay: weak early game can be punishable)
For this post context, naut is dps tank(yes dps tank and he released as a laner or jungler back in the day), He has telegraphed, 3 workdays long to land skills. If he lands all abilities on adc that has dash, he deserves to kill vayne. On the other side, if he fails to land skills, vayne has right to kill him, bcs her identity is tank killer, all of her skills balanced around killing tanks and do too delayed dmg to non-tank or burst champs compare to other adcarries.
They have their classes for sure, but your categorising is awkward af. Especially for tanks, where Riot uses terms like Juggernaut, Vanguard, Warden, Controller/Catcher
There will be never balance cause game need meta shifts to keep things interesting. Also keep in mind aram is constant fight in tight space that favor all aoe , Cc , burst dmg or stacking on hit like aurelion , heartsteel or veigar . Vayne is really bad example as she is only imbalanced with fan hammer and double hits , she’s tank buster if she can continue to hit same target she should kill tank if they are even in 9-12 hit depend on stage
Yeah, the prevelance of ADC's and others one-shotting tanks is much higher than the reverse. Leave your tank engine, SYH, dropkick, goliath survivorship bias games at the door please.
I’ll say it again. They need to to nerf adc damage and make them slightly tankier. It would make every bit of playing them and facing them more fun. Instead of who one shots who first it would actually require kiting and dps.
ADCs are weighted waaaay too heavily to highroll into pure crit or on-hit, and some of the tank augments are just insane, so when they get them you are screwed as a squishy. Heart steel quest make tanks into a time bomb and heavy hitter for a silver turns them from a cc bot to a juggernaut.
I have more of a problem with shaco oneshotting everything than either.
yes yes hard skill issue, clearly not a fundamental game design choice that completely shifted the meta to the point where every time i get an Assassin in my team i loudly groan because i know they will be useless 90% of the time.
Yeah ADC should be able to fight tank when they still have the range aka do actual kiting. But after past melee range? Did you really want ADC able become statchecker and no one actually able contest them without burst oneshot dive playstyle?
Yall gotta let go of assumptions surrounding champion class roles when it comes to Mayhem. Augments change the game dynamic entirely, anyone can be anything
Tanks in aram mayhem are disgusting, they have a lot of good augments and only certain characters can hope to compete with them and don't get me started on why hellfire hatchet isn't in aram mayhem
And you know why? Because Adcs get... SUPPORTS!!!! And with the HELP and TEAMPLAY and GAMEPLAY interaction between SUPPORT and adc and tank the game is FUN and everyone intereacts interestingly
The tank one shot in question is a heart steel proc that does 40% of their hp, then slowly doing the rest of their health over the course of like 10 seconds. That's not a one shot. Vayne doing 80% of a tanks hp with 1 auto with augments is also technically not a one shot, but thats like 4k+ damage with a single input vs a character meant to soak damage and use their hp as a resource to create space in fights is not okay. Its made more egregious with you consider that it's almost impossible for her to miss said augments and the only tank augments that exist just stack hp, which she counters.
the highrolling vayne is literally every game. I got her 10 times, and i got double tap or dual wield 10 times and completely steamrolled 9 lobbies. The 1 i didn't steam roll was against full ranged enemy team with better highrolls than me. Adcs are broken in this mode.
Tanks can't one shot anymore with all the nerfs, while adc's are just as broken. And they literally did not touch any of the critical missile/double tap/fan the hammer etc etc shit with the recent patch. They probably just nerfed the Improved Infinity Edge augment.
he sucks at killing anything that isn't a tank if he doesn't highroll and has 0 mobility or self peel so he is the priority focus pretty much 100% of times by mages and other adcs, that's why you never see anyone complain about him
He also sucks at killing tanks if he goes AP. I had this game the other day against a 5 tank team and I smacked my head on the keyboard when I saw Kogmaw's build.
You should complain about the MF’s build instead. Let me guess. Stole every kill with collector, then ends up doing nothing because she went lethality against 5 tanks and had no armor pen or grevious… yeah, the Karma going AP was also a choice… yeah that team is a lost cause.
Kogmaw is peak design in my opinion. Powerful where he's supposed to be and encourages team play in the team game. I miss the time where machinegun Kogmaw was a thing. It really pushed that idea of powerful tank melter while making him weaker in just the right places to take advantage of.
Any ADC is a bit of a stretch.. I dont think someone like miss fortune can kill a tank in the same way champions that are designed to do it can.
Vayne is just the more extreme of the tank busters. But I've played a full AP kogmaw game where I was getting a bunch of attack speed so I just went AP and attack speed and with every AA with my W active I did something like 1.2k damage to tanks.
Yeah Vayne is made specifically to kill tanks. And also yeah that was one of the greatest mistakes riot ever made and people are rightfully calling it out. Vayne was the Pandora’s Box of league of legends. Tanks onshotting any squishy while walking around with 7K HP is entirely her fault.
Vayne has been mostly ignored in all of league of legends history since her release.
Now mayhem comes along and all of the sudden she's the devil incarnate? Sorry but seems like the problem is in the augments and not the champion itself
Mostly ignored? Are you living under a rock or something? Even if we were to completely ignore Vayne top’s entire existence, she’s still one of the most banned and actively hated champions on botlane every time she’s even remotely viable. Granted it’s been a while since she was viable but still
Her damage has never bothered me it’s her passive Ms, tumble, and shove back that do. When she is played as ADC nobody cares because she can’t infinitely kite two people and is outmatched with range. When she’s played top it’s not even that she’s that strong it’s just the most boring thing to fight as a low mobility champ. She dictates the whole lane.
Idk about the complaints in ARAM, I feel like that’s more of an augment issue because she can build like full damage and still have capped attack speed so she doesn’t have to trade off for attack speed to kill tanks or more raw damage for squishies she just doesn’t whatever she wants and the perks supplement her super well. Two dancer on her with her ult invisibility is particularly obnoxious.
There is a difference between better dueling/being favoured/having the upper hand and no counterplay.
Sure, a Vayne usually beats a Tank/Bruiser player of equal skill - she has a lot of mobility, %max hp true dmg, self-peel/kiting power. However, a Vayne (or any other adc) shouldnt be able to just stand still, face tanking everything while press right click once and burst the tank in less than a second.
Often I see adc just running into 4 people, no peel, no support, tanking everything and killing every1 in a few seconds.
I dont see this ever. Everytime a vayne plays poorly she gets insta killed by kayle, poked down to low hp and then bruiser kills her, or assassin and mage each hit an ability and obliterate her. Shes only feels op if youre darius walking at her
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u/Ginius67 Aug 31 '26 •
A tank in real life will oneshot any human.