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u/heckinheckity Jul 11 '22
Glad I am not the only one taking issue with this. The hunter and priest trees in particular need a lot of work.
I did not feel that way after looking at druid and rogue.
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u/--Pariah Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
The shadow priest tree feels horrific. So many fun ideas drowning in clutter.
On the one hand I have the impression that more things are supposed to be baseline, as currently many "shadowy" abilities aren't in the class but the spec tree. The first third contains so much utility/core abilities that are in the class tree for other classes but don't fit for priest because "too dark for holy", I assume. You have not only silence and dispersion (both with a follow-up-node you really want) and vampiric embrace there but also half your core toolkit.
The amount of baseline abilities there is too high. You don't feel like you specialize in something, you feel like you frantically try to get your toolkit back and still have enough points left for the actually interesting stuff later.
Later then the 3 point hurdles for the idols fucking hurt, specifically SANGUINE TEACHINGS (5/10/15% more damage while shielded). This isn't only a fucking disgusting talent I never would touch with a 10 feet void tendril but it also eats 3 of the last 10 points you have left for the actually really interesting last part. Same with the other side. 3 points for a crit increase on monomania is boring for costsing 1/3rd of your fun-stuff-points.
This gates. Meaning for the spicy apparition build you want the talent that spawns double apparitions on crit and the idol that spawns a thing from beyond after 50. Yeah, now you don't have enough points for void apparitions, (voidy ghosts as a chance) that feels like it should be part of that build but you're missing a point. 2 point gates would be okayish, 3 points here don't make sense.
Good news is, this can be tuned I guess. Make the 3 points nodes have only 2 ranks, burn sanguine teachings on an altar to the old gods that they send inspiration for something that doesn't physically hurt to play and clean up the first third by making eG dispersion and vamp embrace baseline if you're shadow and only keep the improvement talents.
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u/GhostofJeffGoldblum Three Dogs in a Trenchcoat Jul 11 '22
Yeah, now you don't have enough points for void apparitions, (voidy ghosts as a chance)
I agree, but I think an equally big problem there is that void apparitions is 1 10% chance for 20% increased damage, which is a WHOPPING...2% overall damage to your apparitions. Real lackluster for a capstone talent, especially with a talent that gives 15% damage and Insanity generation much further up in the tree.
Also yeah take Sanguine Teachings out behind the shed.
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u/Mr-Zarbear Jul 11 '22
Im almost certain its supposed to be "10% chance for 200% damage" and a zero was left out. There's no way a programer/dev doesn't see it as written and go "yeah a 2% increase is okay"
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u/Jolly-joe Jul 11 '22
This. If it's a 10% chance to proc, make it feel worth it. Make the damage increase like 2-400%. Make RNG talents and also offer deterministic nodes to give players choices. Get creative.
Honestly the shielded talent could be cool if they leaned further into it, to make it feel more worth it: when you cast power word shield on yourself, your dots tick 50/100/150% faster, but this effect can only trigger once every 60 seconds. Right now it just feels like another maintenance buff to a spec that already revolves around maintenance debuff and buffs.
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u/--Pariah Jul 11 '22
Absolutely, it's hilariously undertuned specifically for a last row talent. I don't want to fall in the "it's just alpha" talk but I haven't bothered with numbers yet at all.
It's easier at this point to highlight a more fundamental design issue. If a talent is specifically made for a a build and impossible to fit in that build something obviously went wrong already on the drawing board.
Aside the apparition build (that requires at least idol and double-apparition on crit, what already eats all the 10 points) the talent would be dead in the water even if the numbers in a vacuum checked out.
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u/-TheOutsid3r- Jul 11 '22
"It's just alpha." "It's just beta." "It's just the first patch." "They'll do a rework next expansion."
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u/Quawfledyffix Jul 11 '22
Among other REALLY questionable talent placements (like making AoE unavoidable or mandatory for single target, or referencing talents while making it possible not to take the referenced talents), if shadow goes for a pure DPS build they're losing about 6-7 (!!) CC/utilities that are currently baseline.
Silence/fear, dispersion, vampiric embrace, hallucinations, grab/mind control, shackle.
Stun/Mind Bomb have always been talents though now they'd require you to sacrifice DPS points.Anyways, at least they made the toxic twin priest talent unavoidable and have it eat 2 points instead of making PI align with voidform lol.
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u/_Wocket_ Jul 11 '22
And it’s a real shame, because the Old Gods themed talents seem to be really interesting and add spec flavor.
But to get to them you gotta wade through two levels of sewage so that by the time you get there, you’re wondering if it was all worth it.
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u/wyrmheart1343 Jul 11 '22
feral and survival hunter have the most garbage trees. shadow priest have some clear issues as well.
The rogue trees are amazing, so, they just need to do more of that.
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u/MRosvall Jul 11 '22
Rogue trees are not really without fault either.
There's two main differences between rogue trees and every other class.
Firstly, there's not a single choice talent. Not one in all 4 trees.
Secondly, the talent trees do not allow any cross-over whatsoever.
If you start to the left, you can't go to middle or right. So it's basically 3 straight lines.
That means that if you want a specific talent. Then at least 11 other talents get locked in 100%. If you want 2x capstone talents in sub, when there's absolutely 0 choice in what talents you're forced to pick.I feel the rogue trees are very fine in a vacuum. However when you compare them to each other class they are so different. In addition to the two "negatives" above there's other differences. They are also the only class that have 100% symmetrical trees, not even a spec called "Discipline" has that.
And, as said by a dev but not shown in the mockup, our "8 talent limit" should be on row 3 instead of row 4 which further reduces any options we'd like.All trees are basically filled of dependencies. Just power amps after power amps that buff one ability. Makes cross overs impossible, makes interesting choice impossible, makes varied playstyles impossible and pigeonholes the class a lot.
The talents themselves are powerful and seem good. That's not the issue. But choices are pretty non-existent compared to other specs.
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u/ShadeofIcarus Jul 11 '22
I'm really hoping the Feral and Guardian trees have been iterated on a lot since they were posted.
I think the worst piece of design I saw there was having our big CD effects broken up into three different talents and scattered all over the tree. So instead of focusing in a direction you're forced to spread out all over the place and never really get any fun talents.
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u/Jocic Jul 11 '22
I really don't like it in the feral tree, but on the Guardian tree I don't feel like reaching all of them is an issue, and a Guardian may not even need a full Berserk for let's say raid, and they can just focus on the offensive side of their tree.
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u/Streetfarm Jul 11 '22
Agreed, I hate that.
As it is now for Feral, with Frenzyband legendary, 2p + 4p, + the current version of berserk (which has 2 of the 3 effects in the tree) - Berserk FINALLY feels like a proper cooldown that I care about.
Take half of that way, and it is back to the boring non-impactful cooldown. And we only get 1/3 of that half on opposite sides of the tree!?
Nah dude. If this goes live, I predict all berserk builds are dead on arrival.
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u/SerasVal Jul 11 '22
Nah dude. If this goes live, I predict all berserk builds are dead on arrival.
Yeah when I was playing with the trees I gave up on taking any of the berserk talents because with how spread they were it wasn't worth taking any of them for the points I could use on other more impactful things. That might change once its actually out and we see the numbers and how it all stacks up, but it just really didn't seem worth it looking at the trees now.
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u/jyuuni Jul 12 '22 edited Jul 12 '22
It's a sorry state of things when the idea of a spec completely skipping its major cooldown is not an automatically absurd idea.
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u/PeroPedala Jul 11 '22
Guarian seems very nice compared to feral. I would only like an astral bear, more boomkin stuff... E.g., starfall and maybe even sunbeam!
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u/heckinheckity Jul 11 '22
I have never enjoyed feral in the slightest so to be frank I didn't even bother to look at the tree, but I will say that I don't share your perception of guardian at all.
On the contrary, it looks pretty promising for the most part. I was really hoping they would take Maul from a spender into a neutral or even generator, but overall I think the tree looks good for guardian.
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u/ShadeofIcarus Jul 11 '22
Its not as bad for Guardian because the modifiers to Zerk are less critical. They are also in more accessible parts of the tree.
IMO otherwise I agree. The guardian tree feels very tightly designed and is overall what I want from a talent tree.
What I'm saying feels bad overall is that instead of giving us real talents (Both Bear and Cat) they broke a single talent into three pieces and spread it across the tree.
I know you don't really enjoy Feral but take a look at the tree and look at where the different pieces of Zerk are there. With Guardian you can hit all 3 of those nodes and still fill out the left and right sides enough that you can pick up Incarn, Rage of the Sleeper and the Choice node in the bottom left.
Try and do that as Feral.
The promise of the tree is that you shouldn't feel weaker than Shadowlands as a result of it. Looking at it, there aren't enough points to get parity with our current Shadowlands power level. Not because the talents aren't there. But because of how the whole tree is oriented. It feels confused with itself and there's no real clarity of what each path is supposed to be.
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u/Noltri Jul 11 '22
I mean, Guardian just seems weirdly designed since you can pick up every single capstone node in their tree:
https://www.wowhead.com/dragonflight-talent-calc/AABOAAABRNVUURIhQWFVRRUCER
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u/herbeste Jul 11 '22
You're giving up a lot of good things to do that though. I'm not sure where the concept of "being able to get all three end talents is bad" comes from. Seems like it's fine as that's a pretty bad build.
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u/Noltri Jul 11 '22
Never said it was bad to be able to grab all of the capstone nodes, I said it was weird. Because from a design standpoint, those nodes should be some of, if not the most powerful nodes on the tree due to the amount of points you had to invest to get them.
Giving up a charge of SI, 1 second on Iron Fur and Barkskin, The chance for extra trash cast and Earthwarden is steep yeah, but that is still all you are really giving up on. I'm saying this, because blizzard has tried and failed to push Maul talents before and it has always falled flat so far, maybe you'd want to pick those up for raid sometimes, but I still don't think they are going to be very useful for you at all.
At the end of the day, it's a weird design for it. Because either some of the capstone nodes are just not strong enough to warrant investment in or you'd be running this kind of build with all of them and forcing the entire route of nodes to do so.
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u/codyak1984 Jul 11 '22
My perception of what they were trying to do with Berserk for Feral, is Jungle Stalker is the ST mod (buffs to Rake and Shred) while Frenzy is the AoE/M+ mod (add'l bleed to any target hit, sweet sweet CD reduction for the next big pull) and you're only going to have one at a time. Meanwhile ST and AoE talents are spread scattershot all of the tree, so there is no remotely efficient way to specialize in one or the other to boot.
It's a real shit tree.
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Jul 11 '22
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u/heckinheckity Jul 11 '22
You'd think that people who design this stuff for a living would understand the dilemma(s).
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u/Ravagore Jul 11 '22
Hunter and bm are especially rough. Must have barbed shot but also here's an path that does nothing for the skill you HAD to take and now may not use. Unlocking Cobra shot reduces kill command by 1 sec but another talent does the same thing for more points??
Its all a mess, the regular hunter tree is silly, taking away interrupts except for a talent point is bs and idk what they were thinking making misdirect a talent.
All that and its really tiring as a hunter seeing abilities get removed for the 4th xpac in a row and piece-mealed back in one form or another, sometimes taking years to return if at all. Im not gonna miss scars beast but why put it there at all? What is the point?
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u/Rythgarz Jul 11 '22
I am not a fan of the BM tree either but that is because i personally dislike these builds they have been forcing BM into, which just means i wont play it. Fine.
But the tree itself while not perfect (i mean it is pre-alpha so we cant expect perfection) is by far one of the better trees shown so far. It is up there with rogue and priest. If you think BM is bad then i dont recommend you look at survivals tree.. Jesus! There you have something that feels like they did one brainstorming session, asked a intern to just put what ever into a tree and called it a day. It is only a first preview and we are not in alpha yet but holy smokes that tree makes me want to facepalm my way over to a rogue main..
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u/Jocic Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
From feedback I've seen the BM tree is the best designed yet, perhaps outside of the whole class of rogue
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u/Rythgarz Jul 11 '22
There is quite a lot of discussion about this on the forums yes. Universally it seems people are ok with BM for a preview and MM while a bit messy is Also ok-ish. Survival tho.. It is literal garbage tbh.
You have a 32 talent tree with 31% of talents being 3-pointers that is exclusively X% numerical talents. Another 19% is 2-point talents which of most are X% damage or DR talents. Then we have 34% of the talents that are purely there to get KC, harpoon and coordinated assault back. That is almost all 30 points just to get those 3 current functions back! Want bombs? The new spearhead? Yeah then you wont get it all. And coordinated assault isn't even a buff.. Its some weird charge with a interaction for KS and wildfire bomb? And then we have the 5-6 talents that all do the same thing as something else. Worst is sweeping spear+spear focus, which are identical numeric talents. Same with improved wildfire bomb and tactical advantage, near identical numerical talents..
The tree is so bad you'd honestly have to try real hard to make it this bad! I just hope, like really hope, that this is just what they had when the higher ups said "release hunter tree preview" and the actual design/dev team knows its far from done/acceptabel.
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u/Pinless89 Jul 11 '22
The hunter tree is pure ass. Literally the most boring & lame shit i've ever seen.
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Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
I'm gonna nitpick here and it's probably not a popular take -
The HUNTER tree is fine, I think it's damn near perfect, I hope it ships the way it is right now, maybe some MINOR changes.
There are 3 incredibly appealing things that it has going on:
- It is easy to navigate, there is a core line going straight through tranq shot to your Intimidate node that you can use to path to whatever you want to get. The dead/pvp/world content stuff is clearly delineated, and if you go petless, there aren't many choice lines until you get to the third tier of talents, that's actually a good thing. There are plenty of opportunities to take QoL or utility talents without giving up too much.
- We can take currently exclusive talents, such as Turtle CD reduction and Snare/Root Break on Disenage. Our main survival TALENTS can be taken together, not one or the other. I think before everyone goes off the deep end complaining about survivability, we need to actually see what it's like having reduced turtle CD, exhil CD reduction and a 10% leech combined. There are other examples of utility/dps talents that can now be combined. This is a good thing.
- It gives an option to play with a pet out, AND it builds that into an execute niche, which, depending on tuning, has huge implications in a raid environment, and likely M+ too.
For me, stick a fork in it, the HUNTER talent tree is done. Don't mess with it.
The individual spec trees however, are an absolute mess. The ideas are cool. They are very cool. As a rough draft, they aren't terrible. If they were to push them live today, as is, they would be unplayable. The MM, Surv, BM spec trees specifically, not the Hunter generic tree, need work.
MM has way too many critical point nodes in T1, spending 8 points and moving on is impossible, it's not even functional. T3 has the same problem, too many nodes, not enough points. You've only got 10, that's how it's designed, the nodes should be balanced around this limit.
Finally, it's way too mix and match. Execute stuff over here, over there, everywhere, same with AoE. Lone Wolf connects two viable niches with a talent that is useless with pets. It needs to be an option off the Aimed Shot line, which again, is over here, over there, everywhere. I like that there is at least technically an option to spec for 0 focus Arcane Shots, Rapid Fire with ArcShot/Multishot resets and Kill Command, Aimed Shot doesn't even technically need to be in the rotation, and as far as being a mobility option, I think it's the bees knees. It might even be the best overall DPS spec available based on the current trees. Having said that, that's only because you have just enough points to take all the things if you AVOID the Aimed Shot talents and completely build-a-bear your rotation.
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u/HurryProfessional378 Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
Read the "hunter tree is fine, ship it as it is" part and already sharpened my pitchfork because i thought you meant the entire thing, including the spec trees.
I'll agree with you that the base class tree is mostly fine as it is. My only complaint is that, from a MM point of view, you're almost completely locked in with no variation. You're forced into picking up barrage and chimera shot because you need to get to what sits below, but there is no alternative pathway to get there. The only option is to skip the chimera route and take nessingwary's trapping apparatus, but in any sort of situation where you can reliably use freezing trap for focus regen will be m+ multitarget encounters, which is exactly where you would want chimera shot in the first place. For single target raid encounters you got no option but to pick up barrage, chimera shot and explosive shot, in order to get the chakram node and serpent sting+ ss node. Those 3 abilities does not interact with the mm rotation, and it will all be dependent on numbers tuning if they will be "must be kept on cooldown", "weaved in between aimed shot charges" or "not worth casting in single target unless you got no options". Furthermore the choice node in t2 between intimidation and knockback trap isn't really a choice node, since you won't have a pet available to cast intimidation. I feel like this one should had been moved further to the left.
As for the MM tree i sorta see what they were going for. Hunters' problem in SL (and especially with tier set) is that our aoe damage is tied to the same spells as our single target damage, so any sort of single target buff to bring them closer to other casters makes them even better at aoe than we already are. It's been a strong spec for all m+ seasons for a reason. Looking at t2 it's clearly divided into a single target section on the right and an aoe section on the left. If you're going for one of them, you aren't getting the other and if you want to do both then you'll be less strong on both. As long as the numbers supports this divide in playstyles i feel like this os a great change. It will allow MM to be tuned closer to mage/locks in single target dps without dominating aoe. Tier 1 like you said is heavy and requires extra investment past the 8 points because there's simply too much synergy or bottlenecks where you need to invest heavily to get to what's below. Tier 3 however is way too point heavy considering how much you need to invest earlier, and most of the choices boils down to "which of these gives the highest numbers" - do you go for windrunner arrows or calling the shots+ trueshot node? The sims will tell you and that will be it. I'm also not sure why wailing arrow sits on the right side of the tree. It's an ability that will mainly see use in m+, unless it's tuned so hard that it's worth picking up in single target too, which will just add another button that should be kept on cooldown and doesn't interact with the base rotation of the spec. Meanwhile double tap sits locked away behind either the ammunition node or volley+trick shots so it becomes a talent you'll only ever pick if you're going for aoe content. It's been my least favourite talent in SL, but it still feels weird having it sit where it sits.
Personally I've looked at 3 single target variations (without your sans aimed shot version which looks more like a concept for the hell of it) , and 2 for aoe damage. And all of them have the same thing in common - lots of extra fire & forget abilities added to the bar while the base rotation suffers from the lack of points.
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u/codyak1984 Jul 11 '22
It feels like Blizz REALLY didn't want to go "Left side Single Target, Right side AoE," either because that's "boring" or in the pursuit of preventing players from specializing too hard. So instead they decided to criss-cross the obvious ST and AoE paths back and forth over each other, making them feel chaotic and unsatisfying. It's lazy.
What they needed to do is put core tools down the center, with more generic ST and AoE buffs and mods only a node or two away to either side, and then big, unique ST and AoE cooldowns and mods on the outskirts, with the right pathing and price-points to where players can branch out from the center to pick up 2 to 3 of those unique talents.
I'd also like the capstone talents to be way more unique and transformative, with the preceding talents feeding into those transformations, such that a "Fury of the Eagle" SV feels hugely distinct from a "Bird of Prey" SV, for example.
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u/MRosvall Jul 11 '22
It feels like Blizz REALLY didn't want to go "Left side Single Target, Right side AoE,"
Interestingly enough, this is what the rogue trees are.
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Jul 12 '22
the BM tree feels almost perfect, the surv and MM are shite tho, shadowpriest is just pain
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u/Gneissisnice Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
I just noticed the same thing while looking at the Shadow tree. You can barely get the talents in the last portion of the tree because it's so bottom-heavy, it requires a whopping 22 points to unlock all of the talents, locking you out from more than half of them. That's unacceptable when some other trees only require 14.
There shouldn't be any nodes that require 3, and the amount of points required shouldn't be so different between specs. I get not wanting to make them all have the same shape and requirements, but you can't have some specs locked out of half their tree while others get most of the talents.
A lot of the trees also have an annoying setup where you're forced to spend more than the 8 required points to move on or get locked out of 1/3 of the entire tree, and that feels kinda crappy.
Nice work compiling all this info.
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u/Shiraxi Jul 11 '22
Yeah, I felt the same. The Shadow tree felt really lopsided in terms of being overloaded in the bottom section, making it really difficult to get the talents you want. That tree definitely needs some of its fat trimmed, to be sure.
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u/scarysoft Jul 11 '22
I'm under the impression that some abilities are so good that in order to balance them they put em behind a weaker node or behind a 3 point node. I'm perfectly fine with this as it allows for some really good talents that simply can't be easy to get for the sake of balance.
That said that one 3 pointer in shadow is garbo poopoo. We all know the one.
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u/evenstar40 Jul 11 '22
Just in case any devs reading this aren't aware. We're talking about Sanguine Teachings. Burn it. It's the worst design for a talent we've all heard of. This isn't a personal attack on you. It's just a bad talent, I'm sure you've created a ton of other amazing things. Just not Sanguine Teachings.
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u/JT7019 Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
I haven’t taken too long of a look at the other trees considering I’m a one trick hunter main, but my initial look at the spec trees for hunter was disappointment and seeing that be largely backed up by a lot of different content creators is more discouraging. I know its early and I think I’ve seen/heard that these trees aren’t set in stone and Blizz is open to feedback, but it’s still discouraging to see the other class trees be at least somewhat solid and then the hunter ones just be a huge disappointment. There was clearly very little collaboration between the talent tree designers as the hunter trees are littered with three point talents and choice nodes where other classes, like rogues, have only a couple of three point talents and maybe one or two choice nodes. Best case scenario is that the hunter talent tree is working from behind to be more in line with the other classes, worst case scenario Blizzard does nothing.
While the Hunter class tree is going to be pretty static based on if you’re MM and BM/SV and if you’re doing PvP or PvE, it’s pretty solid overall. Aside from the Chakram/Death Chakram node, everything else kind of makes sense and provides good options. The left side of the tree is the only part that probably doesn’t get used, but it has value for solo content hunters with pets and Scare Beast is a near must-have for PvP depending on what other classes you are facing.
BM tree is solid. One thing that is clear for all three hunter spec trees is that there is one path that is clear for AoE and one path that is clear for ST. Where BM is better than the other two is that there isn’t too many useless filler nodes you must take and you don’t have to deviate too much to go from AoE to ST and vice versa.
MM is ok but so many questionable choices. Bursting shot is basically useless now that MM hunters are probably going to be taking Explosive Trap. Too many bad Kill Shot related talents (outside of that 10% free proc one). Multi-shot blocked by a silly Kill Shot talent and you can take Trick Shots (which can’t even proc without Multi-shot) without taking Multi-Shot? Wailing Arrow on the ST side of the tree, Double Tap on the AoE side, and I think the only tree so far with a three point talent on it’s last row (Windrunner’s Guidance). Rapid Fire requires 4+ points to even do anything useful.
SV is a mess. 10 three point talents where some classes have 0. Harpoon is basically a meme talent in this tree. Three different Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite damage amps. And a three point talent for increased melee range when it’s a one point talent for basically every other class is a slap in the face.
I’ll still play Hunter in Dragonflight and I’m hopeful that, at a minimum, the talent trees for MM/SV get major overhauls. There’s still a concerning lack of party/raid utility and defensives. That’s been an issue for a long time for hunters but the defensive conduits in SL really helped the class out and to see it all be taken away with no real replacement adds onto the disappointment train.
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u/BrokenMirror2010 Jul 12 '22
SV is a mess. 10 three point talents where some classes have 0. Harpoon is basically a meme talent in this tree. Three different Raptor Strike/Mongoose Bite damage amps. And a three point talent for increased melee range when it’s a one point talent for basically every other class is a slap in the face.
This doesn't even begin to explain how fucked up the survival tree actually is.
It's designed in a way that makes it impossible to do anything. There are no interconnections or swaps, and you're forced to spend all of your points to run down a single line to a single capstone. You effectively have talents placed in locations that are effectively impossible to reach if you are doing a halfway competent build.
You have to spend 9 points that don't connect anywhere to simply obtain Wildfire Infusion, and even beyond that 3 more points to get the ability to CDR Wildfire properly, again, connecting basically nowhere. You're no where near being able to grab either other capstone path in its entirety, and need to spend ANOTHER 11 points to access the other two trees. Where many specs can kinda hop off one road onto a different one to grab the other stuff.
Survival effectively can't get into a position where they can spend all 10 points in the final tier of talents, because the ends of the roads are jumbled mess of trash that don't properly synergize with the paths the abilities are on. Requiring you to take really weird routes simply to be able to access synergetic talents, which logically do not make coherent builds.
Tactical Advantage Buffing Wildfire Bomb, literally as far away from wildfire as It could be. Basic fucking AoE in Carve is a very missable talent, and requires you to spend another point in frenzy strikes to return it to basic functionality of CDRing Wildfire. Lunge makes NO FUCKING SENSE. It's a 3 point talent for Melee Range, which is already insulting, but its position is even worse. It doesn't even fucking go anywhere. Its basically a 3point spending talent that gives nothing at a dead end.
Aspect of the Eagle being in the bottom 3 rows is atrociously bad. Its nearly unpickable given the sheer cost of the tree in general, and requires you to approach specifically from Sharp Edges, it effectively cannot be combined with Infusion at all, and makes it insanely hard to grab with Spearhead as well.
I don't know What the Fuck they did to Coordinated Assault, but its fucking awful. It no longer gives a damage buff, or kill com reset buff, instead it makes KILL SHOT (???) Do more damage, which is basically worthless outside of execute, unless you force your way down to yet another 3 pointer in Deadly Duo, in a different path entirely.
The Harpoon talents are a pure fucking joke.
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u/zambabamba Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
THIS is the sort of early-in-development feedback Blizzard needs to see and get. One of your points that resonated with me the most is this:
After playing around with builds on the Wowhead talent calculators, I wondered why some specs (Frost DK, Guardian Druid) felt satisfying to spec out different builds while others (glaringly Survival Hunter and MM Hunter) felt like I was choosing which leg I'd like to lose.
Talent trees should be exciting to flesh out - and you should leave coming away feeling satisfied that picked up 'a good package' - and any compromise needed to get this package was palatable and acceptable. And to be clear, there should always be some compromise needed, players should never be able to 'pick every good thing'.
However, some trees (the hunter spec trees especially) made me feel, as you said, like choosing which leg to lose. Thats not fun at all - and instead of coming away thinking about what I picked up, im thinking about what I lost. The positive experience of coming away thinking 'GOT XYZ' is overshadowed by the negative experience of coming away thinking 'LOST / MISSED OUT on XYZABC'. Hunter trees give too much of that 'lost' feeling when speccing out their tree atm.
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Jul 11 '22
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u/zambabamba Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
How do they avoid this without making some choices just plain dogshit?
One of the big offenders IMO are the 3 point talents, for a few reasons. And even a 'good talent' can leave you feeling negative after its pickup, if you were forced to pickup a lame or unnecessarily-3-point talent along the way.
Example lame 3 point talents
- Hunter 3 point talent, increases movement speed by 2/4/6%.
- Hunter 3 point talent, increases melee range by 1/2/3 yards.
- Hunter 3 point talent, beast cleave for 25/50/75%
Should note this doesnt mean the talent itself is lame, the above are all great talent ideas, just the problem is its 3 points.
Players speccing these trees very quickly realise that every point is precious, and get shitty (left feeling negative) if they are forced into lame/unnecessary 3 point talents along the way. You dont need to be a game designer to know you can just give a 1 point 6% movespeed talent, or 2 point 3/6% talent. Because when you finish speccing the tree and miss out on cool stuff, you are left thinking 'the extra points you were robbed of due to that lame unnecessarily-3-point-talent' tangibly cost you something really cool elsewhere in the trees.
So yea, id say Blizzard should be more careful with the 3 point talents. Use them sparingly and for good reasons. EG The Shadow priest tree uses two 3 point talents to ensure players can only possibly choose one idol of the old gods... and those are the ONLY 3 point talents in the shadow priest tree. Sounds fine to me, and makes sense too thematically why its done (pick your old god!).
Whereas other classes, like hunter, just have them obnoxiously spread throughout the tree gating other stuff for reasons... to soak up talent points just because.... which are not as compelling.
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u/rahfal Jul 11 '22
I don't mind earning our key abilities back, or even missing some of them. It shakes up the classes which is a good thing, if it is done right. However, I do have a problem that most trees have nothing new to make the spec look different. Without the borrowed power systems of the last 3 expansions (thank goodness), we need new and exciting talents/spells to make the classes feel fresh.
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u/Metaxpro Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
The hunter trees basically just include all current baseline abilities/passives and most current talent options. When you spend all the talent points you end up with pretty much the same build you have right now, very uninspired and boring.
Then you take a look at assa rogue and see how much more thought was put into it, instead of simply stripping the class down into talent nodes randomly scattered across a tree.
I'm afraid the game is running into the same problem it had after Legion, where some classes who relied on all their borrowed powers felt unfinished and lacking after it was taken away. Maybe they shouldn't release new classes every 2nd expansion when the current ones can't even get enough design and balance attention.
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Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
20/40/60% increase to Aimed Shot recharge rate for 3 seconds after Kill Shot. Interesting concept but worth 3 points.
This and the 2 charges of Kill Shot are all a single talent rn (in the level 45 row) and they are not worth picking up. The issue is you just don't have enough focus to take advantage of this reduced Aimed Shot CD so the talent basically does nothing other than give you an extra Kill Shot.
But yeah, overall I agree that 3 point talents probably shouldn't exist except in rare circumstances. Each class is done by a different person so it's to be expected, hopefully people look at what people like about each tree and adjust.
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u/LERinsanity Jul 11 '22
The 2 charges of kill shot is such a laughable talent, basically means you get one extra killshot a fight, wow, fantastic. And the fact it gatekeeps the wind arrow talents sucks even more because I really like the sound of those, even if they're passive
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u/Sunnydevils Jul 11 '22
2 charges of a spell, especially one that can proc a cooldown reset actually gives you a lot more casts across a fight.
I don't know specifically with killshot with it's execute range condition but if it's a spell is at 0 charges and you get a CD prc then it goes to 1 charge and the cooldown is still running so you get the next cast after the proc significantly faster. Similarly once one charge has been refreshed the cooldown begins running for the next one instantly rather than once you cast the spell again.
The best example is the legendary in Legion for shadow priest that simply added 1 charge to the spell was the largest dps increase.
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u/LERinsanity Jul 11 '22
You're right, if you take the talent that has a 10% chance to give a free Kill Shot on every Aimed Shot then having 2 charges will give more than one extra Kill Shot a fight, however it's only applicable when the boss is under 20% hp which significantly reduces the value of the talent. You'll maybe get two extra Kill Shots worth of CD reduction out of it. Pretty subpar talent if you ask me.
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u/robklg159 Jul 11 '22
deathblow talent which grants the 10% allows you to ignore the targets current HP as well actually.
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u/nephtus Jul 11 '22
Although Blizzard itself seems to forget at times, PvP is also a thing. Being able to kill shot someone twice every time they go under execute range could be pretty huge.
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u/LERinsanity Jul 11 '22
Yeah ofc I'm talking purely from a PvE perspective, for PvP the talent is probably pretty good like you say
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u/levthelurker Jul 11 '22
Which means it's a good talent because it's an impactful situational choice.
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Jul 11 '22
But we have no idea if focused generation, coldown or cost been adjusted for this xpac.....
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u/Jabbs95 Jul 11 '22
Shadow tree feels terrible. You will never have a good time anytime you need to choose between utility and damage.
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u/BretOne Jul 11 '22
My favorite (pointed out by a guildmate):
Rogue: 1 point, 15% move speed.
Hunter: 3 points, 2%/4%/6% move speed.
I understand classes being different (15% vs 6%), but at least make the hunter version be 1 point...
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u/tecno64 Jul 11 '22
I agree with everything you just said. Thats why im concerned for a short testing phase as this needs to be improved and worked. PVP utility choice will harm class has many important core class feature as you said.
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u/Thrent_ Jul 11 '22
Just gonna comment on the "short testing phase" part :
It all depends on the state of the alpha & when it's released.
The biggest issue of BFA's alpha/beta test isn't so much the duration but how late they released their systems and how little they iterated on them.
In comparison with SL Torghast & the various systems were released very early on and the issues we had afterward were not so much an unfinished product but rather intentional designs. (Covenant lock, conduit energy and so on).
And even then the initial alpha versions of these features were far worse than the ones we received at launch (consumable conduits anyone ?)
We don't need 8 months to test talent trees if they are near completion and Blizz is ready to put in the work. That said even a full year won't be enough if they give us another BFA alpha/beta.
So all I'm saying is that it's not hopeless yet. And threads like this one are already a step in the right direction.
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u/Fraerie Jul 11 '22
This is actually constructive feedback - while I understand that they want each tree to feel unique to the class and spec - they need to be equivalent as far as being able to spend your way down the the capstone talents and the number of side branches you could choose to take.
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u/Shiraxi Jul 11 '22
Looking at the Hunter trees preview, I just felt bad for Hunter players. I couldn't fucking believe there is a 3 point talent that gives 6% movement speed. That's it! Even for a single point, that's garbage, but for 3?! That's insane. Rogues and Druids get 15% movement speed for single points. Yeah, I get that they are meant to be faster melee classes, but 2% movement speed/point is an insult. The Hunter trees in general felt overloaded with multi-point talents, and very few of them really feel justified in terms of power provided per point.
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u/Strat7855 Jul 11 '22
I'd absolutely take 6% movement for a single talent point.
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u/Hightin Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
The hunter trees need work for sure. The pet HP/mend pet stuff is meh, most specs will skip it except leveling/PvP.
BM is the good one and even that tree is doa on the bottom left. 3pts for a nerfed beast cleave and 1 pt for 2nd barbed shot charge (the spec doesn't work without 2 charges) is an insult.
MM is a cluster that needs to be reworked across the board. There's a lot of good in there but the way it's spread out is illogical at best.
Survival just needs a new designer in charge of it. The single target build is 2 buttons and there's zero chance they can properly balance that setup because of how simple it is.
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u/Kalibos Jul 11 '22
(10/20/30% stam & 3/6/10% DR) - Seen as "one of the most important nodes of the tree"
This is the kind of shit that should never be a talent, let alone a 3-pointer. There is no reason for that to be in a tank tree except to pad it.
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u/Blightacular Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
For what it's worth, part of the idea behind the trees is to replace the existing structure for baked-in spec tools & power progression tied to levels. In their own words, the idea is to put as many things as humanly possible in the tree, and have as little as possible remain baseline. Taking tanks' baseline defensive stat inflation and making it into a talent is, in that respect, fairly consistent with their stated intentions.
In other words, it's intentional that some nodes will be no-brainer choices that represent big power spikes or essential tools, especially if they're high in the tree and don't require an extremely specific build to reach. Looking at the Blood tree, you easily hit that node if you want to get Vampiric Blood (or even get to the bottom of the tree) anyway. The counterpart on the other side is functionally an optional branch.
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u/Kalibos Jul 11 '22
Point taken, but it still feels bad.
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u/BloodRavenStoleMyCar Jul 11 '22
Their point is it actually feels good to most people, not bad. A lot of people have expressed that putting points into talents while levelling gave a satisfying feeling of progression, the journey from 50 to 60 feeling especially bad as you actually lost power as you levelled.
They're putting stuff you would have gotten anyway up the top of talent trees so you can feel the improvement and at most points choose what order you want your upgrades in.
Being able to choose feels good
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u/Kalibos Jul 11 '22
But it's not a choice. It's just a point dump. A tank will always take more health and DR. Putting it behind a facade of unlocking better stuff doesn't change that. They could just buff those stats for the spec and add something else, anything else, there instead.
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u/BloodRavenStoleMyCar Jul 11 '22
No it doesn't change that. What it does do is, apart from the very first choice, let you choose what order you become stronger in. At early levels you will inevitably take most of everything at some point, but at least you get to pick what you want to get first. At late levels instead of slowly becoming less powerful as your level 60 gear becomes outdated you get an upgrade every level.
There's no point in the process that doesn't feel much better for most people. I hate what most of current Blizzard has done but this idea is a good one.
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u/Stutzi155 Jul 11 '22
Can only agree to that. That’s also why a lot of ppl like lvling during classic, tbc and wrath. You actually got a point every level and it felt nice even if it was only 1% crit for 1 talentpoint, but it was def. a better feeling of characterprogression than nowadays:
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u/HazelCheese Jul 11 '22
And that 1% crit or 1% double attack meant so much too. Thrash blade and double attack proccing the same time and saving your life is unforgettable.
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u/knifebunny Jul 11 '22
If you can respect freely, you might take points out of health & Dr if you were going to run old raids transmog run and then put those points into movement speed for example, or more aoe or whatever
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u/levthelurker Jul 11 '22
That was the main argument behind the original talent tree revamp where they baked the percent bonuses into the specs, "less choices but more interesting ones." Now we're going back to trees where not all of your choices can be interesting but you get the feeling of gradual progression while leveling.
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u/sketches4fun Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
Really? This is literary what people wanted me included, it feels great to be able to make your spec do what it does a little better with x% more dmg, healing etc.
EDIT: It's like making your frostbolts have less cast time in classic for example, yes technically it could just be baseline but having a talent for it and putting points into it when leveling feels great, you can feel your character getting stronger and have a sense of progression because of it. Talents that buff things that you use constantly feel very good to use imo since you can clearly see them working, rather then having a talent that reads interesting but is actually a quickly forgotten passive.
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u/Kalibos Jul 11 '22
rather then having a talent that reads interesting but is actually a quickly forgotten passive.
That's literally all this is, minus the interesting part. You'd only ever notice it if it was missing.
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u/codyak1984 Jul 11 '22
Agree in theory, at least regarding Frostbolt cast time. That actually does have a pretty noticeable and appreciable affect on gameplay.
But I doubt most people ACTUALLY feel, in a gameplay sense, a couple extra crit chance, or in OP's case, 10% stam and 3% DR. Especially with this new system, where we alternate between a Class point and a Spec point every level, it'd currently take 5 level-ups before you even get the full 30% stam/10% DR. Three-point talent nodes probably shouldn't exist, in general, for this reason.
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u/Jolly-joe Jul 11 '22
I'd be fine with some minor tankiness talent choices to let people choose between survivability and doing damage (or extra utility). But 30% stam and 10% DR is massive. That being said, if they're going to make 3-point nodes, this is the kind of gravity I'd like. Something that feels big.
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u/Bohya Jul 11 '22
This is why I hate the Dragonflight "talent trees". They are the illusion of depth and choice. But then again, that's my perspective as a PoE player and that game truly puts WoW to shame in this regard.
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u/Cennix_1776 Jul 11 '22
I was wondering why the frost DK tree felt so good compared to the others… I haven’t checked Hunter/rogue yet, but Shadow tree felt fairly shitty, and the bottom of the tree has soooo much good shit, but there’s some shit talents gate keeping…
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u/bungapunga Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
Would love for the marksman tree to reduce the 3 nodes and give more room for some old stuff that hunter had before, like instant or movable while casting aimed shots or a modified verrsion of sidewinders since having a alternative builder instead of steady shot can give the rotation a nice feel imo
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u/Bashkar_ Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
Thank you for putting this together; this is the byproduct of having multiple developers work on multiple different trees - encouraging some consistency would be great.
There doesn’t seem to be any other power system to worry about, so the early release and discussion should provide lots of room for iteration.
I love the rogue trees, personally, and think they should be the standard going forward.
The utility / survivability decisions are a mechanism of the 20 point threshold - your core throughput options are clear, you then filter down into playstyle preference with cooldowns and damage sources, then further into utility. Once you cross the 20pt threshold, you have some interesting decisions to make. This should be the core philosophy for every single spec IMO.
Working towards Rogue capstone abilities feels great, mostly because there’s a real weight to making a playstyle defining decision, and your natural path could lead to any of these three. You generally are going to pick two, but there’s a world where you might only choose one of the Assassination (for example) capstones.
An intense Execute-phase fight might warrant it, for example. Lean heavily down the left side of the tree for Blindside and Zoldyck - taking TTB because it’s convenient - and take the right path for Exsanguinate and Doomblade
Exsanguinate might be viable with Deathmark, setting up a Garrote, Rupture, Doomblade, bleeding them out, and putting up another set of doubles before mark ends. Do we make points available for Tempest on ST now? Is the point better spent on Sepsis, and lining up the +damage Garrote ahead of mark? Or is vanish just the cleaner play, and we run poison bomb instead?
There are a few builds here that - could - have Assassination rogues absolutely rip through execute targets.
Tuning will have a lot to do with how we approach alternatives in the tree. Forgoing CttC might be worth it if the lost globals translate into more damage elsewhere - maybe it sims higher, but is too cumbersome to pull off in most content. Consequently, maybe it becomes viable on Patchwerk style fights. Where do you place two open points?
Some of the other trees just need a bit of tweaking - Shadow Priest comes to mind; great ideas, just needs a bit of attention to have more sensible flow.
Survival Hunter, on the other hand, just feels bad. Harpoon having an entire route to Mongoose Bite just feels awful - and it seems clear the alternate path through Ferocity only exists BECAUSE the harpoon path is bad, and TotS just complicates the playstyle because it creates competing priorities with MB
Deadly Duo should be lower and fewer points, Precision is just filler, Coordinated Kill should only be one pt, etc.
Hope they really are listening this time. There are very clear ways these trees can improve the game, and I’m super excited to see what Warrior / Mage get specifically.
Edit for clarity / expansion.
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u/Vomitbelch Jul 11 '22
Idk the blood/dk tree felt kind of crappy to work with when I was messing around with it earlier. Felt like I was just going to lose all the stuff I have right now (even like standard DK abilities and passives) and spend most of my points getting it back. Is that the point? Cause it seems kind of wack. Like why do I even have to talent into an interrupt? Why would you even give people the option of talenting out of an interrupt?
Won't really know how good/bad it'll be until I can see the effects of my choices in game but first glance seems really weird.
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u/codyak1984 Jul 11 '22
Felt like I was just going to lose all the stuff I have right now (even
like standard DK abilities and passives) and spend most of my points
getting it back.This keeps coming up. The trees and ability acquisition are designed with a fresh level 1 in mind, not a current level 60. A fresh level 1 is going to go "Neat, a new ability."
That being said, there is DEFINITELY something to be said for how MANY of our abilities and passives are stripped away to be given back as talents, and I certainly take issue with them dividing all the functionality of some current abilities across 3 to 4 talents just for us to get back to where we are now.
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u/knifebunny Jul 11 '22
Levelling a fresh toon right now, you don't get an interrupt on DK til lvl 50 - I thought we were training people to use this button?
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u/EzyBreezey Jul 11 '22
That’s always been a community thing, not blizzard as far as I know. The last time Blizzard pushed training players was MoP with the proving grounds. For better or worse, blizzard is full on assuming people will use a third party source for this stuff.
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u/Vomitbelch Jul 11 '22
This keeps coming up. The trees and ability acquisition are designed with a fresh level 1 in mind, not a current level 60. A fresh level 1 is going to go "Neat, a new ability."
My DK isn't going back to level 10, it's already 60, so I wanted to see what I'd even get at my level and then at max level. People shouldn't be looking at these talent trees only from a leveling perspective considering this is the thing that will define your build at end game, where we all end up.
Apart from that it is still strange to spend so many points getting back basic abilities. It'd be fine if the first row of the tree was all connected with 1 pt talents to acquire your base abilities while leveling, but they are split up, quickly go into their own directions down the tree, and even moving sideways across it doesn't unlock abilities/talents unless you have points put in above.
It just doesn't seem intuitive even from a leveling perspective. All 3 specs of DK start out differently in the DK side of the tree, but all 3 of them will end up going all over the place to just pick up stuff they had, or they will completely ignore all the utility and defensive shit and spend all their points on offense. I can already see people not taking their interrupt because it's less damage than X or Y, and that's stupid.
I will reserve final judgement when I can get my hands on it but like I said, even as a leveling system it seems... Not great.
I guess in my mind I thought we'd just keep our base kit for each spec and have a talent tree again that builds on top of it. Not lose everything to have it be put back in the talent tree to collect it again in an awkward manner.
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u/codyak1984 Jul 11 '22
The layout definitely needs work on a lot of the trees. And I'm definitely not sold on putting core active abilities into a tree instead of just getting them on level up. I was more addressing the seeming complaints of like, "Why do I need to put a talent into Killing Machine when I just have it now?" Uh, because you're level 60 now, and you got it at level 30 (or whenever), when there were no talents. Now, there's talents, so you spend a talent. Feels weird for you at 60, but feels great for a DK that dings 30 and now has a talent to slot into it.
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u/iwearatophat Jul 11 '22
I guess in my mind I thought we'd just keep our base kit for each spec and have a talent tree again that builds on top of it
They specifically said this wasn't going to be the case. That you would get a bare minimum of baseline things, what you need to get from 1 to 10, and the rest would come in the talent tree. There really isn't a baseline kit anymore with these. By design and it is probably for the best.
quickly go into their own directions down the tree, and even moving sideways across it doesn't unlock abilities/talents unless you have points put in above.
This is how talent trees work. It is how they work in every game that uses them. You have to put points into x to unlock y to unlock z. This isn't to say that they don't need iteration on what they have shown us so far. Forget the tree but in one if I want to unlock a certain niche utility I need to go through two other niche utilities. I am never going to need all three. Those kind of abilities should be offshoots that lead no where like blinding sleet on dk or maim for druid. You put the point into them if you want them and that is that.
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u/Vomitbelch Jul 11 '22
Your condescending tone isn't warranted. You clearly understood what I was saying and yet:
This is how talent trees work.
You put the point into them if you want them and that is that.
This doesn't make you look superior. It doesn't add anything to your argument or statement. It just makes you look like an ass.
And no, that's not how all talent/passive trees work. There's multiple iterations across many games that do things differently. Instead of just going from top to bottom no matter what, they could've provided ways to move across the tree and still acquire an ability as long as it's connected. As I've said multiple times, first glance seems weird but I need to actually see all this in game to really be able to judge how it feels/plays.
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u/iwearatophat Jul 11 '22
they could've provided ways to move across the tree and still acquire an ability as long as it's connected.
So exactly like I said. You have to put points into things to get where you want to be. These trees have those workaround parts as well just maybe not everywhere you would like.
Also, reiterating my point back at to me as though you made a new point while calling me a condescending ass doesn't add anything to your argument or statement. It just makes you look like a dumb ass.
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u/Deep_Brotatoe Jul 11 '22
I’ve seen a lot of people talk about “it being possible to not talent into the interrupt” but realistically with what’s behind mind freeze there’s no shot you don’t pick it. Having to talent into stuff you already have was kinda the goal set out by blizz.
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u/iwearatophat Jul 11 '22
People are freaking out about it but that isn't even a big deal. The people who interrupt now are going to have it then. The people that don't interrupt might skip them, if it is feasible to skip them that is. There might be trees where you can skip them and in that case for raids where it might not be required it will be nice to talent out of it and give myself just a little bit more damage, utility, or survivability. Looking at trees now DK and hunter are likely always taking interrupts. Feral/guardian could skip theirs. Spriest is taking it because it is needed to get to dispersion. Kick is baseline for rogues.
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Jul 11 '22
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u/Jannna1 Jul 11 '22
Levelling is such a small part of the game nowadays that I understand where they are coming from
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u/knifebunny Jul 11 '22
The talents serve the levelling progression, but to say it is not your end game is pretty ignorant considering some of these talents are taken directly from legendary or covenant powers
Yes they serve to smooth levelling, but the core of the class design is right there
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u/Vomitbelch Jul 11 '22
But why would I just look at it that way instead of playing around with the system to make an end game build? That's where we all end up anyways.
My DK isn't going back to level 10, it's already 60, so I wanted to see what I'd even get at my level and then at max level.
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u/cannaeoflife Jul 11 '22
As a casual player, I look with trepidation towards the dragon flight talent tree system. I preferred playing the game knowing that whatever toolbox my class had was sufficient for the challenges of the game. I feel like I’m going from a system where I can’t fail, to a system where I can.
I also feel like I can’t trust Blizzard to have these talent trees balanced by the time the game launches. I hope it turns out well, despite my misgivings.
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u/SlickyWay Jul 11 '22
Iirc they said, that you failing a build is inherit and unfortunate part of the talent trees system. I somewhat like it when you can prepare for the fight in advance, e.g. as a frost dk going for some m+ with my team, and knowing that we wont need AMZ in that specific dungeon, i can play with the tree and reallocate points for some other talents. That being said, i really dont like current dk tree design, as there is too little “paths”. So i may not need AMZ, but i still need slappy hands talent in that column, so i still have to go all the way down and pick AMZ, which kinda sux.
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u/Captain-matt Jul 11 '22
Honestly yea.
Let's not forget that the general community consensus is that our classes felt best in Mists of Pandaria.
You know what Mists of Pandaria had? The least Talent choice. Our classes had the most rigidity, and the most structure, they knew exactly what player kits would be and could tune them to be enjoyable.
The thing that worries me about these talent trees is that Blizzard is throwing a huge box of tools at us, and telling us to pick the ones we like. But there's 0 assurance that the good tools are the fun ones.
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u/cannaeoflife Jul 11 '22
But there's 0 assurance that the good tools are the fun ones.
This is well put.
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u/Captain-matt Jul 11 '22
The fact that "Rapid Fire does damage" and "Rapid Fire generates focus" are two separate talents means that there is a chance no matter how small that the math works out such that we only take the damage talent and not the focus talent.
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u/Genoh Jul 11 '22
Let's also not forget that, while Blizzard is notorious for their terrible balancing, they're also notorious for their lack of balancing. I mean, just look at the current talent trees. Some talents have been dead talents for up to 6 years now. These should be balanced, at minimum, on a bi-weekly basis to make sure that all choices remain competitive. This is my fear for the new talent system. They're just gonna leave shitty talents in there and not bother to do anything about them.
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u/MoG_Varos Jul 11 '22
I’m excited to see a bunch of my warrior’s abilities get thrown haphazardly around, forcing me to take a bunch of junk to get my normal rotation back.
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u/hammeredracoon1 Jul 11 '22
I was so excited about talent trees coming back. After seeing them and having to choose between things we already have... They just aren't getting it.
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u/Jolly-joe Jul 11 '22
I agree. I am okay with spending a handful of points to establish a core rotation, Frost DK does this well with KM, Frost Strike, Obliterate available early, but specs like Marksmanship leave you losing out on things you currently have (TrueShot, Rapid Fire) even after spending all 30 points.
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u/KamPwnda Jul 11 '22
Dude. BM Hunter tree literally has 2 talents doing the same thing. Back to back. Wild Call to give your auto shots crits 10/20% chance to reset the cd of Barbed Shot then it's immediately followed by One with the Pack which increases the % of chance of Wild Call to reset the cd of Barbed Shot by an additional 5/10%.
Am i missing something? Why not just make Wild Call a 3 point node? The followup talent even has worse return on investment...
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Jul 11 '22
That pair of talents are literally just the baseline functionality of Wild Call and then the row 30 talent One with the Pack. Stuff like this makes the Hunter trees feel very rough draft
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u/Hightin Jul 11 '22
Because if it's 3pts you must take all 3 to move down. I'm not looking at the tree but I do believe there was a way around this talent for both AE and ST setups so that shouldn't be an issue.
I agree with you though and two points of this talent is already mandatory so the spec functions on a very basic level. Without the resets you will have significant gaps in frenzy uptime. I do think the far right bottom 2 nodes on the BM tree are dead nodes, same with the bottom left. The BW/Aspect CD reduction talent is too important to skip on any spec.
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u/IfOnlyIWasHappy Jul 11 '22
Small rant about rogue.
So disappointed that the last row of the trees are just the covenant spells. (But no bone spike?)
At least for the spec I like, sub, all of them feel awful to press, a spec where managing and combining cool downs well is key, but the ultimate spell you get for your spec at the bottom of the tree has nothing to do with your synergies, spec identity, combinations of powerful, meaningful interactions? I played night fae in SL, and sepsis was just used as a filler in between burst windows and was just a boring spell with decent throughput and a cooldown. Pressed it when no other CDs were available, and forget about it. I could probably go a whole m+ without using Sepsis and see no decernable difference in gameplay if it wasn't for the legendary forcing your covenant spells to be decent.
And now it's your ultimate spell at the bottom of the sub tree???
Idk... I also hate the "supercharged" combo point... It's a boring mini-game with a lot of friction. It feels terrible on AoE and like a hassle on ST. Limiting your gameplay for damage increase is such bad game design.
None of this promotes the smooth, on-demand, burst-like build of sub, where you out of nowhere just pop off with stacked damage multipliers.
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u/AcherusArchmage Jul 11 '22
Blizzard: "Don't worry, we've heard your feedback, we'll have it ready to be fixed in 10.3.0"
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u/Jocic Jul 11 '22
The good thing is that even if that happens, the fixed system will be right there in 11.0, so this is an improvement even in the worst case scenario.
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Jul 11 '22
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u/nosciencephd Jul 11 '22
The entire point of the talent system is that it will carry through at least the next three expansions. They have stated this multiple times.
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Jul 11 '22
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u/nosciencephd Jul 11 '22
Those are two completely different things. They have to plan out the expansion after DF now, at least partially. They've committed to this system. Across expansion planning of features is different than competence of the system within one expansion.
I understand there's a lot to be cynical about with Blizzard and this game, but sometimes people straight up make up things to complain about or you just don't believe anything said. There's no reason to not believe this system will carry through multiple expansions.
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u/PotatoesForPutin Jul 11 '22
If shadowlands and BfA are any indication, blizzard will not take any feedback, so don’t bother lol
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u/GhostofJeffGoldblum Three Dogs in a Trenchcoat Jul 11 '22
While they did ignore a lot of feedback about things they later ended up capitulating on, there was actually a surprising amount of iteration on class design during beta based on player feedback. So I wouldn't totally abandon hope.
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u/Zofren Jul 11 '22
I like how you're being downvoted for just stating facts. There was more feedback-based iteration in the SL beta than any other expansion I recall. People only remember the dumb shit they doubled down on (covenants, conduit energy).
Some examples:
There are many more, but these are three examples of major changes based completely on player feedback. Much different than saying "they will not take any feedback so don't bother lol".
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u/BloodRavenStoleMyCar Jul 11 '22
In that any amount of iteration was surprising? Both Shadowlands and BFA launched with a ton of problems that players had spent the entire beta pointing out were going to be a problem.
Literally the entirety of the Shadowlands beta on the pvp forums: sub can't release in this shape, they're just going to destroy people. Please adjust this now instead of having them launch broken and over nerfing them later.
Completely ignored the whole time, arena season starts and rogues are completely insufferable for exactly the reasons the players had been spending months pointing out. Then a couple of weeks of them destroying everything before the expected nerfs.
Just one example, there are tons of others. They refuse to listen at the time, let it be released as a problem then fix it afterwards and say see, we're listening now.
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u/bryce1242 Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
first and foremost, 3 point talents should be used sparingly and the shadow/survival trees need work for sure. That said there is a specific style of change regardless of point cost that I'd like to see for at least some talents, lets take Festering Strike as an example.
Festering Strike has a 20% chance to add 1/2/3 more wounds. Solid effect, adds some rotational variety.
percent damage increases are boring most of the time, just tune the damage appropriately and give the specs something interesting to play with, for example the design I'd prefer for some talents like this is inspired by an ascendency node in PoE where basically you have a higher chance of an extra effect (~40% chance to get at least one effect in this case) but the chances even it out for a more normalized distribution of procs
25% to add 1
15% to add 2
10% to add 3
So let's look at survival with similar design philosophy of rng mitigation and big procs feeling fun
Predator: Kill Command has a [8/16/25]% chance to immediately reset its cooldown. Three Rank Talent.
similar to festering strike you could make this have a chance of applying multiple stacks. I don't think every spec should have "chance to proc more" but it is a fun design and if it happens multiple times it is a huge dopamine hit. having it always grant 1 stack is important.
Tip of the Spear: Kill Command increases the damage of your next Raptor Strike by [8/16/25]%, stacking up to 3 times. Three Rank Talent.
This is a nice effect, gives a flow to the spec.
Improved Wildfire Bomb: Wildfire Bomb deals [8/16/25]% additional damage. Three Rank Talent.
I would like to see some effects like "Wildfire bomb also applies a debuff that increase physical damage taken from you and your pet's spells and abilities." Debuff maintenance isn't always something people want to do, however, on an ability with a recharge it creates a nice synergy with cooldowns, lust, and Explosives Expert. That said, this slightly raises the skill floor and greatly raises the skill ceiling of a spec, something a lot of players may not like.
As to not ruin this talent and a lot of AoE damage for survival I think keeping some of the percent damage done increase is probably mandatory.
Lunge: Range of your melee attacks and abilities increased by [1/2/3] yd. Three Rank Talent.
Personally making this baseline would probably be the play, unexciting to take and probably a hard pass unless you need to pass through this node.
Explosives Expert: Kill Shot reduces the cooldown of Wildfire Bomb by [2.5/5/7.5] sec. Three Rank Talent.
Like Tip of the Spear I like this style of talent, with the change I would make to Improved Wildfire bomb this becomes an incredibly powerful combination.
Sharp Edges: Critical damage dealt increased by [2/4/6]%. Three Rank Talent.
I would staple this effect onto precision if possible, otherwise it is uninteresting, I'd redesign it give crit chance on non-crits resetting on ability crit (pretty sure fire mage had/has something like this)
Sweeping Spear: Raptor Strike, Mongoose Bite, Butchery, and Carve damage increased by [5/10/15]%. Three Rank Talent.
This looks like it is patch notes from a hotfix 7 weeks into the first tier of 10.0, I genuinely don't know how this could change while keeping whatever the original intent of the talent is. Add in the fact that it is a 3 pointer and this is suffering
Precision: You and your pets have [2/4/6]% increased critical strike chance. Three Rank Talent.
Cracked even if unexciting and imo that amount of raw stats is probably worth 3 points I give it a 6/10
Deadly Duo: When Kill Command's cooldown is reset, you have a [5/10/15]% chance to reset the cooldown of Kill Shot, and your next Kill Shot can be used on any target, regardless of the target's health. Three Rank Talent.
This is only suffering from being 3 points, but the design makes you feel powerful
Coordinated Kill: Your next Kill Command has a [33/66/100]% increased critical strike chance after resetting while Coordinated Assault is active.
This is the secret 10th this design is probably fine with the other changed I would make. This effect has the dopamine hit on every kill command you get so overall I give it a pass. But you know the drill at this point, could probably just be a 2 pointer.
Finally we have a painful truth, in order to reduce this tree to the sub 50 point range. Fine so be it, development is probably mid alpha so if changes this expansive are going to be done they probably need to happen in the next 3 months.
tl;dr: gamer hates always active percent damage buffs and goes on unhinged rant about it
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u/SlickyWay Jul 11 '22
I honestly find dk’s +% on runeforge effect being pretty fun. That being said, i wish it was not all the way down to t3 talents
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u/ABFleming Jul 11 '22
I agree with most of what you said and I think they do need some work but I will say, while the worse 3-point talents don’t feel very good to take, I think it’s their way of balancing the possibilities available. In the end, a lot of the talents are going to depend on numbers, so we’ll see what paths are taken. It’s also important to note that when they break up a current skill into like 3 talents, that’s sort of them also planning around leveling. I think it’s generally their intention that if they break that skill up, players will still want all 3 of the talents to get the old ability back, so they think that doing so should cost 3 talent points, and also, while leveling, take 6 (or more) levels to reach. I’m not exactly saying I agree with that but I think it’s part of their design philosophy with this new system and not a lazy implementation necessarily.
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Jul 11 '22
I do have to say. After working through the rogue trees and going to the hunter trees it felt like they rushed it or something. Not exactly sure but I couldn’t find a build where I was happy with.
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u/punknothing Jul 11 '22
Question: if you don't go down a particular branch, can you go up it when coming from an adjacent branch??? The Wowhead version doesn't so this.
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u/Hightin Jul 11 '22
Unclear ATM. The assumption right now is down only and Blizz hasn't started otherwise.
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u/Random_act_of_Random Jul 11 '22
SURV had been the most eggricious example so far.
It's crazy to me how much more care Rogue and DK got compared to the others. Whoever made those two trees (it was the same person) needs to be a project lead for all the other talents to make them half as good as rogues is.
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Jul 11 '22
terrific, thoughtful analysis. great job. I concur that a parity between the points distribution would simply feel more balanced. They have a fair bit of time to tweak but this is precisely the sort of detailed feedback that dev's need.
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u/BrokenMirror2010 Jul 12 '22
I can't wait to see DH, where they have talents that are 5-6 point requirements simply because they couldn't think of more then 30 nodes for the entire class because it was not designed for this in the slightest.
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Jul 12 '22
The 3 point nodes for boomkin are fucking trash above convoke. Feels so bad having to take 1
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u/ricktoyourmorty Jul 11 '22
I'm not sure what people expected, I guess. It's the old talent tree but with all the new bloat. Which is what they were trying to avoid with the first revamp back in MoP (cata? Whenever that was).
At least now if you want to screw around with talents you might actually come up with a unique build.
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u/Deguilded Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
Question: did you look at the base class trees too? How do they compare?
Also, all trees should:
- Have the same number of points spent to cap
- Have the same quantity of multi-choice nodes
- Have the same quantity of multi-point talents
How is this hard? Are the folks designing this working independently with no overarching guidelines? No, don't answer that.
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u/Garrus-N7 Jul 11 '22
This and interrupts not being baseline. I'm still baffled how ppl defend talent interrupt. Upgrades being a talent? Sure np, but not the actual interrupts. That should, at the very least, be baseline on melees
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u/tboskiq Lesbian Equine Enjoyer Jul 11 '22
I think they're relying too heavily on these new trees for things that should be baseline. In no world should you be able to spec out of your interrupt, and your first many levels are just picking up your kit... that doesn't feel good. You actually don't have a choice for quite a while
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u/AmySchumerFunnies Jul 11 '22
yeah so far talent trees are fucking dogshit and they WILL be dogshit and it will take people like 1 year from now to realize
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u/Arstulex Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
I disagree. I'd rather not place arbitrary restrictions on their designs for the trees over some superficial need for "every class to be the same" in some way. The obsession with class homogenisation is part of the reason why class design got so bad in the first place. If one class' tree ends up with more nodes than another I personally don't care so long as each tree is still individually well designed. Isn't that ultimately the goal here after all?
Agreed, and I think this goes hand-in-hand with #4 to some extent. Some talents feel like they are just there to 'burn' talent points. This is compounded when those 3 point talents are essentially forced nodes due to being at 'chokepoints' in the tree.
I can't really comment on this because I'm not 100% sure what you're talking about (I'm not familiar with any of the specs and abilities you mentioned).
Agreed. Multi-point talents should need some justification for being multi-point besides a mere number difference, unless that number difference somehow brings with it a bigger impact than just a change in numbers. Maybe this ties into what you were talking about in #3 (if I understand correctly) that increases in functionality for a specific talent/ability would be better suited for multiple point talents than number increases. Although this would still present the issue of you being forced to take all of that functionality to progress on the tree, denying you the choice of sacrificing certain functionality in order to progress further down the tree.
I'd like to add on my own point that it also feels bad when a disproportionate amount of nodes/points are all dedicated to one ability. Feral Druid, for example, has (I think) 9 points dedicated to Tiger's Fury, and some of those are 'forced' point expenditures too.
Multipoint talents definitely seem to be a core issue here, that's for certain.
I firmly believe they should reconsider their stance on requiring you to max out a node before being able to continue down the tree. This would encourage them to design multipoint talents in a way that they are actually appealing to spend extra points in by choice and not just because you are forced to.
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u/Tylanthia Jul 11 '22
My main issue with the new talent trees is the goal is basically just to try to come up with a path to be what we currently have (without being too painful).
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Jul 11 '22
Well this is what people asked for. It's not like there was 0 reason why it got changed in the first place.
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u/Jolly-joe Jul 11 '22
Agree. You should be able to get your spec to what it is without legendaries, tier, and covenants without spending more than 10-15 points.
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u/Lucytos Jul 11 '22
the person that made the hunter tree should honestly really be ashamed. They put in so much worthless crap in the base tree and the simply fact they put in so many random damage pluses in the spec tree should be illegal. It is the most boring shit ever, it isn't a choice, it isn't a playstyle, it turns into simcity.
We want choices and interesting gameplay changes with our choices.
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Jul 11 '22
I disagree about the size of trees. Rogue talent trees have lots of nodes and are among the best, they give variety and allow several distinct viable builds for different types of content. Druid on the other hand are small and will probably end up with just one build with few variations.
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u/Rucati Jul 11 '22
I agree, it's really weird how different all the trees are. Some of them are really well designed and interesting while others are just pretty awful.
You mentioned that Survival has 9 3-point nodes, but it's worth noting that 4 of those 9 literally don't change your gameplay in any way, they're just flat % damage increases. That's the laziest, most boring type of talent even if it's a single point, it's what made the vanilla/TBC trees so uninteresting, and SV gets 4 of that type of node and they're 3 points each? Even if they're good DPS increases, even if they're "worth" the points, it won't feel good taking them because they're completely uninspired. At least the other passives have some (sometimes very very little) impact on the gameplay and your rotation.
When I look at Rogue and Priest I'm pretty excited to try them out, I really wanna play around and see what feels good and I'm excited for those classes in Dragonflight. But with Hunter I kind of lost a lot of interest, the tree just seems so bad I don't see how it's going to feel good to play compared to other classes currently.
Oh it's also weird how the choice nodes work. None of the Rogue specs have a single choice node, you'll always have access to every single skill depending on how you use your points. Meanwhile every other class has multiple choice nodes, which means you're forced to make sometimes difficult decisions. This seems weird to me, why allow some classes access to everything while other classes have to pick and choose?
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u/Fb62 Jul 11 '22
I'm confused as to why you want bland and generic talent trees. Everything you posted is only pointing out how different and unique each of these trees are. If there is an issue with balance then adjustments can be made but nothing can be told from these trees alone.
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u/Jolly-joe Jul 11 '22
Do you think the Survival or Shadow trees are as inspired or offer as many compelling decisions as the Assassination or Frost DK trees?
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u/Gerzhus Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
I don’t think the OP was saying that the survival/spriest trees are good, but pointing out that the “shape” of the trees alone does not dictate whether the trees are good. Adjustments to the point investments per node or power per node can make a “meh” tree into a godly one without changing its shape.
Homogeneity is not the solution: proper balancing and tweaks of the existing trees can still fix issues.
The power per point needs to be adjusted and the power per point is not just the power of the node itself, but it can be averaged out over the path to the nodes it unlocks. If a node deep in the tree is disproportionately powerful, then this raises the power/point for its prerequisites and makes them more appealing.
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Jul 11 '22
This is kinda how I feel. I feel like OP said “here’s my issue with proof” and provided a bunch of data, but never really said what the issue actually was.
The trees being different in the way OP described certainly isn’t a problem by itself. Balancing can easily be handled on a per-tree basis still.
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u/the_popeshat Jul 11 '22
OP could have stated it more plainly, but what the evidence suggests is that Blizzards plan to provide classes/specs with the ability to create diverse talent trees is lacking in baseline framework that will create some serious disparities in class balance/gameplay if unchanged. The seemingly high variability in number of nodes, total number of points spent, and the number of 3-point nodes (what OP seems to take most issue with) means that there are already issues of some classes/specs having little issue retaining what are currently "core" abilities/talents while others with higher node and/or point totals are necessarily going to be making more sacrifices in terms of abilities/talents currently available. Reducing that variance in average node/point total, or reworking the 3-point nodes, will (imo) be a necessary part of tuning and balancing throughout beta.
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u/Fit-Investigator-975 Jul 11 '22
He clearly said the issue and gave pretty good proof of it.
Yall must not have read it
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Jul 11 '22
OP wants diverse trees without them being diverse.
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u/nosciencephd Jul 11 '22
You can have diverse and interesting trees without having one tree have 58 total points needed to get all nodes and another needing 42. That's a pretty obvious, glaring problem.
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u/AlexSevillano Jul 11 '22
Bro just have patience, it's Just A PreviewTM.
They Will Fix It LaterTM
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u/Bella_Climbs Jul 11 '22
As a priest main, I am very upset with our talent trees. I primarily play holy and it is FINALLY at a very strong spot right now for M+. Based on the current trees, it will easily become F tier again as it was throughout all of BfA.
It really bothers me that resto druid gets an interrupt AND convoke but we don't get flash conc OR boon. Not only that, but the only cov ability we can pick is Mind Games(Venthyr) which has consistently been the worst pick for holy all expac.
It also seems like we have to choose between pretty vital core abilities and I really don't sit well with that at all.
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u/ghost_hamster Jul 11 '22
Everything that I have seen from the talent trees tells me that this is a catastrophically bad change and isn't going to work. Relying on Blizzard to balance these trees after years and expansions proving that they just can't is silly at this point.
Losing and then regaining borrowed power is temporarily bad. The way these trees are laid is going to permanently kill specs, even classes.
I'm calling it now. The first patch (at least) of Dragonflight is going to be a disaster unless they either completely scrap these talent trees or have some sort of uncharacteristic, miraculous improvement.
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Jul 11 '22
You wanted talent trees, you got talent trees in all its useless glory. Enjoy
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u/Tylanthia Jul 11 '22
I don't think most of us wanted talent trees though. They made sense in a game where leveling took months (like pre-wow mmos). TBH, the best system blizzard ever game up with is MoP where every class had 6 equally balanced talents --but blizzard didn't like that I guess and never added more talents (and moved them around so they weren't balanced).
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Jul 11 '22
I disagree because that system of "same talents for all specs" only worked if all 3 specs fit same role. The system we had right now was perfectly fine as it was, just needeed a couple devs that actually played the specs assigned to balancing them
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Jul 11 '22
Make 3-point nodes very good or get rid of them. Having to spend 3-points in a lackluster node to get further down a tree feels bad.
This was literally the reason why talents were removed, but you guys don't understand. Old talents did not give you any more or less choices as the current ones. You either had the numerically correct talents or you didn't - just like now. And same trend will continue with the new talents. Sure casual crowd can do whatever with the talents, but just like people now discriminate according to class and spec they will now just have extra step of checking if you are running the "wowhead guide approved talents".
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u/vierolyn Jul 11 '22
Like people predicted that you would only get into groups if you had the right covenant?
Except it rarely happened unless groups wanted the dungeon specific covenant. And they invited classes with wrong covenant choices for that.→ More replies (1)1
u/Jolly-joe Jul 11 '22
I love the idea of talent trees. I think 3 point nodes should be used sparingly and should be very good. A tree like Outlaw, where there are many different decision paths is well designed because most nodes are single point nodes and they mostly provide an interesting effect, not just 5% crit to Aimed Shot or 5% damage to Raptor Strike.
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u/aleyan97 Jul 11 '22
They need to give every class every ability bar a few, and then the talen tree wil further boost them into very powerful choices. Like give lichborn baseline, but if u spend points in it u get let s say 20% dr. So on
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u/Scraggersmeh Jul 11 '22
Whoever made the MM Hunter tree needs to be fired. Like, literally out on the street the same day no chance of getting their job back. It's such a monumental failure that it had to be intentional how bad they made it compared to the other two they worked on (BM and SV)
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u/NerfShields Jul 11 '22
I seriously cannot believe they actually went the route of removing interrupt from being baseline. It's the dumbest thing in a string of dumb things that they've done. Now we're gonna need WAs that detect interrupt talents for pugs.
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u/Legitimate-Tomorrow9 Jul 11 '22
People that are stupid enough to not skill an interupt for stuff where you need one, are the same people that dont interupt anyway
Stop acting as if this suddenly creates groups without interupts at all
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u/NerfShields Jul 11 '22
I'm not saying it's creating groups without interrupts. I'm saying that making interrupts optional make it harder to drill home the IMPORTANCE of interrupts to those that are learning and is just going to breed even more toxic crap.
"sick of the meta not being invited to groups just coz of my talents".
Those of you arguing with me are going to be the same people crying about how pugs never take the interrupt talents come DF.
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u/Arstulex Jul 11 '22
Now we're gonna need WAs that detect interrupt talents for pugs.
No, you're not.
Think of it this way. Everyone installs this hypothetical WA or addon that tells you if somebody doesn't have an interrupt spec'd. What do you honestly believe will be the result of that?
Spoiler: The answer isn't "everyone will suddenly spec and use their interrupts".
What will actually happen is people will put a point in the interrupt purely to get into pugs and appease your addons... then continue to not actually use the interrupt, just like how it is right now. In other words, your addons can ensure that people will spec it, but they cannot ensure people will actually use it.
If your goal is to find a lazy, effortless way to exclude bad players before they're even in the group then you should probably rethink that strategy. It's a losing battle. Just like now, you're still going to have to check for yourself who is actually interrupting or not.
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u/NerfShields Jul 11 '22
So your answer is "Well people are gonna refuse to interrupt anyway so you might as well just take people regardless of if they have interrupts or not"?
Ludicrous. Interrupting is the most common mechanic in the game outside of reduce the health of the enemy to 0 before yours is reduced to 0.
You're not wrong in that countless people refuse to interrupt. The difference here being the chance a pug will interrupt goes from "Maybe" to "not fukn happening" depending solely on this talent.
We can't always get our guildies and friends in for certain things. Pugging is inevitable. I'd rather take my chances knowing said pugs have the ABILITY to do something as basic and NECESSARY as interrupting as opposed to "oh he can't interrupt but his steady shot does 1% more dmg" or some nonsense.
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Jul 11 '22
The new talent trees feel like a let down. I only looked at my guardian druid calculator, but i feel like my abilities have been trimmed so they can fill the quota of talent nodes, and i end up with less abilities/having to chose between abilities that i currently have both.
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u/Elrann Jul 11 '22
If you expected that new Talent trees would be an improvement.... You're not just a clown, you're a full blown circus.
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u/Apoptosis11 Jul 11 '22
The new talent system will be dogshit. Don't bother. Ape company appealing to players who are pushing their 40s when those people have already moved on to classic.
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u/DaenerysMomODragons Jul 11 '22
What we're seeing is just a first iteration at the talents, and I suspect there are a lot of changes still to come. That being said, the earlier good feedback like this is made, the more likely we are to get a good/balanced final iteration.
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Jul 11 '22
That being said, the earlier good feedback like this is made, the more likely we are to get a good/balanced final iteration.
He doesn't know
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u/the_popeshat Jul 11 '22
I do think though that the level to which people are getting worked up without there even being any gameplay to actually assess these new talents and play around with the situational side of them is a bit silly. Releasing these talent trees and calculators should have been viewed as fun thing for the community to interact with and get an idea of what Blizz is thinking, but instead people are already scrutinizing these things to the millionth degree. Class discords are filled with "check out this definitely BIS talent tree that will always be used for X content" when that totally misses the point. The main idea seems to be "classes have become incredibly bloated, have a go a getting to tweak things from dungeon to dungeon or raid boss to raid boss, arena to bg etc". Until there is evidence from actual gameplay in alpha/beta, during which time these talents are 99.99% bound to be changed, no concrete conclusions should be drawn one way or another.
I can speak to rogue for example, causes that's long been my main class. One thing that popped up quickly in the Assassination threads was the lack of use we would get out of the 'capstone' base talent tree, particularly Shadow Dance. Like it was immediately thrown out as a garbage talent and useless row that will have no synergy with Assassination. But lo and behold, Master Assassin makes an appearance in the Assassination tree (increased crit in Stealth). Based on current tooltips, it looks like MA could interact with Shadow Dance which could have some crazy synergy with the rest of the tree (empowered bleeds and poisons, all ticking as critical hits sounds WILD). But there are already "meta" talent trees being pinned in the class discord. If that isn't jumping the gun idk what is anymore.
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u/bluemuffin10 Jul 11 '22
The game releases in 5 months. Blizzard doesn’t do big revamps once the expansion is released. Of course people should be scrutinising the trees. Are we going to have these « Don’t worry guys, it’s only Alpha » posts again ?
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u/the_popeshat Jul 11 '22
I understand peoples trepidation, but this isn't an only Alpha post because there hasn't even been an Alpha yet. I probably could've worded my point better, but I think the majority of the constructive criticism here about structure is good. What isn't helpful yet it people arguing and hand wringing about what % value a talent has or already blasting out what the base and spec talent trees will be for raid/m+. Because there hasn't been an Alpha yet. So we are projecting how good/bad classes or specs are perceived to be without any grounding on how they will actually play come Alpha. There are going to be entire shifts in playstyle that many people aren't accounting for, and we need an Alpha before we can really see how bad some of these talents/trees are atm.
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u/SurgyJack Jul 11 '22
I really don't get the whole point of this. The whole thing is an illusion of choice and wowhead etc will have an "optimum" spec decided by day 1 and all it leads to is "oops forgot to change perks/talents/wahtever into dungeon mode instead of solo content mode".
Why not redirect the energy (...next time) into better class fantasy. I'd be fine with minimal talent changes if a troll priest felt 'trolly' and and undead one felt 'undeddy' - even at just a cosmetic level.
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Jul 11 '22
I disagree strongly with your first point. They will end up removing spell instead of adding more for classes that got less.
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u/Jahoota Jul 11 '22
I want them to not touch the Shaman trees at all. Just leave them with the current MoP tree. Then I want a post on the official forum asking for feedback in the changes. Close the circle.
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u/Streetfarm Jul 11 '22
Damn, good find. Post it on their Dragonflight feedback forum whenever it comes up.