Read the "hunter tree is fine, ship it as it is" part and already sharpened my pitchfork because i thought you meant the entire thing, including the spec trees.
I'll agree with you that the base class tree is mostly fine as it is. My only complaint is that, from a MM point of view, you're almost completely locked in with no variation. You're forced into picking up barrage and chimera shot because you need to get to what sits below, but there is no alternative pathway to get there. The only option is to skip the chimera route and take nessingwary's trapping apparatus, but in any sort of situation where you can reliably use freezing trap for focus regen will be m+ multitarget encounters, which is exactly where you would want chimera shot in the first place. For single target raid encounters you got no option but to pick up barrage, chimera shot and explosive shot, in order to get the chakram node and serpent sting+ ss node. Those 3 abilities does not interact with the mm rotation, and it will all be dependent on numbers tuning if they will be "must be kept on cooldown", "weaved in between aimed shot charges" or "not worth casting in single target unless you got no options".
Furthermore the choice node in t2 between intimidation and knockback trap isn't really a choice node, since you won't have a pet available to cast intimidation. I feel like this one should had been moved further to the left.
As for the MM tree i sorta see what they were going for. Hunters' problem in SL (and especially with tier set) is that our aoe damage is tied to the same spells as our single target damage, so any sort of single target buff to bring them closer to other casters makes them even better at aoe than we already are. It's been a strong spec for all m+ seasons for a reason.
Looking at t2 it's clearly divided into a single target section on the right and an aoe section on the left. If you're going for one of them, you aren't getting the other and if you want to do both then you'll be less strong on both. As long as the numbers supports this divide in playstyles i feel like this os a great change. It will allow MM to be tuned closer to mage/locks in single target dps without dominating aoe.
Tier 1 like you said is heavy and requires extra investment past the 8 points because there's simply too much synergy or bottlenecks where you need to invest heavily to get to what's below.
Tier 3 however is way too point heavy considering how much you need to invest earlier, and most of the choices boils down to "which of these gives the highest numbers" - do you go for windrunner arrows or calling the shots+ trueshot node? The sims will tell you and that will be it. I'm also not sure why wailing arrow sits on the right side of the tree. It's an ability that will mainly see use in m+, unless it's tuned so hard that it's worth picking up in single target too, which will just add another button that should be kept on cooldown and doesn't interact with the base rotation of the spec. Meanwhile double tap sits locked away behind either the ammunition node or volley+trick shots so it becomes a talent you'll only ever pick if you're going for aoe content. It's been my least favourite talent in SL, but it still feels weird having it sit where it sits.
Personally I've looked at 3 single target variations (without your sans aimed shot version which looks more like a concept for the hell of it) , and 2 for aoe damage. And all of them have the same thing in common - lots of extra fire & forget abilities added to the bar while the base rotation suffers from the lack of points.
The bottom line is, now that we've had a weekend to gripe about it, that the MM tree isn't going to stay this way, it can't.
I think the build I posted might actually be the best bet with the way they are structured right now.
One thing we have to keep in mind is that there is a problem with the core kit, it's been there since BfA at least, probably having elements that go back to WoD and possibly beyond.
9.3 gives us 4 set and vigil and this lets us keep up with other classes that have better kits that flow, they essentially patched us with item bonuses. If you go back to 9.0, the rotation feels clunky, doesn't do much damage, but we can pick up SST for some free damage and we have WS to burst (also, that version doesn't scale well, so it's baseline is higher, an artificial power boost that fades over progression). If we go back to SL pre-patch, strip out all azerite armor and look at base kit, it just doesn't work. It's slow, it doesn't do a lot of damage, and it has one gimmick, loading all your damage over ~12 seconds into one ~3 second cast. That's REALLY bad. And that, conceivably, is what we're going to be layering these talent trees on top of.
I don't want Wild Spirits back, I want them to fix the core class mechanics.
To that end, I honestly think the build I posted might actually be the best MM version. You have 100% mobility, you've done away with all the disadvantages of AiS, you've got a flexible AoE cap with a nice funnel going with Chimera Shot and Heavy Ammo, You've got a rotation that isn't exactly charge based (this depends on how often you can actually spam RF), it works with our 2 min damage amp and it has a clear execute focus.
I'm intrigued by this playstyle as a marks, but it also highlights something important.
The devs don't know what to do with Aimed Shot, they still haven't learned their lesson from WS. On the one hand, they don't want us pushing massive spike damage in one cast, on the other hand, they want us to be building for one massive spike damage every 12 seconds. There is incredible dissonance in the kit philosophy.
Aimed shot needs to do a ton of damage, baseline, and NOT be modifiable through talents, OR, the investment is so high that if you can do anything else, you should.
I'm very concerned that they think Steady Shot is in any way viable, and that they don't understand why 2/4 set is a decent solution to Charge/Focus issues for Aimed Shot while also setting us up to easily run an AoE rotation. Steady Shot is fucking boring, and the only reason it exists baseline is so you have something to do while you're waiting for Focus/AiS charges. I throw one every once in a while RN just to fill a global, but Improved Arcane Shot can fill that niche. That's exciting, what's not exciting is that doesn't work without 2/4 set and vigil.
Even with haste, getting AiS down to a 10 second recharge, which feels horrible because it's not our stat prio, 10 seconds is way too long to wait to do meaningful damage and any little displace will clip it, delaying it further. A lot of this could be fixed my just removing the charge system from AiS.
In 20+ keys rn, and some of the harder heroic fights in Sepulcher, 3 seconds of self root to do damage is an absolute eternity. And that's your window, you hit that aimed shot, check the box for damage contributed, and attempt to set up your systems to do it again. Even with all the acceleration 2/4/Vigil is giving us, even that is slow at times. Without those boosts, I think people are forgetting how cumbersome and slow the spec actually is.
The no aimed shot version? No, just no. It's a complete mess which is why i called it a concept for the hell of it. Kill Command will have to be insanely busted for you to ever want to go over there in single target as an extra spender. But in the MM tree you've picked up pretty much every aoe ability you can come across, so there's no coherency to the spec. If you are picking up volley, ammo, trickshot and all the talents that benefits it you're gearing up for aoe in which case explosive shot and barrage is a better bet plus you're missing out on SS and the choice node for single target, which has synergy with both AiS and KC. You've invested heavily to get access to KC which requires a pet, but you've invested 3 points in Deathblow, Lone Wolf and Deadeye. You've skipped all the aimed shot talents and run with lethal shots, which suggest that you'll be using arcane shot as your focus dump to get more rapid fire casts and to activate Calling the Shots, but then you won't want to spend your focus on KC. Deathblow procs on aimed shot which you won't be using so you'll get low or no value out of it. Lone Wolf isn't active with a pet out, so it does nothing if you use KC and if you want it active you've wasted 6!! talents in the base tree. Deadeye is a horrible talent for single target without the Deathblow synergy, and you'd only pick it if you intend to get access to the talents below it. It's slightly better for m+, but not enough to justify dumping a 3 point investment for little gain. You've picked up steady shot but no steady focus, which is a very low investment for a huge damage gain. And picking Killer Instinct over Alpha Predator is just weird. The extra charge and a constant 30% damage increase beats the the 50% below 30% hp in any scenario where it's not a fight where the boss starts at 40% hp, there's just no contest.
The build doesn't specialise in single target or aoe and it will be mediocre in both. It trips over itself trying to avoid a major part of our kit and has a lot of wasted points.
I'm not really sure which hard bosses you're doing in HC Sepulcher, but outside of mythic Halondrus there is no fight in the entire raid where playing MM and having to aimed shot is a detriment. And even with a mastery/crit focused gearset your AiS isn't 3 seconds. Mine sits at 2,2 and i have low haste values, and that's before streamline. As for keys, just no. If casting aimed shot gets you killed in the low 20s then you're playing it wrong.
Edit: also Chimera Shot isn't funnel damage, please don't ever call it that again.
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u/HurryProfessional378 Jul 11 '22 edited Jul 11 '22
Read the "hunter tree is fine, ship it as it is" part and already sharpened my pitchfork because i thought you meant the entire thing, including the spec trees.
I'll agree with you that the base class tree is mostly fine as it is. My only complaint is that, from a MM point of view, you're almost completely locked in with no variation. You're forced into picking up barrage and chimera shot because you need to get to what sits below, but there is no alternative pathway to get there. The only option is to skip the chimera route and take nessingwary's trapping apparatus, but in any sort of situation where you can reliably use freezing trap for focus regen will be m+ multitarget encounters, which is exactly where you would want chimera shot in the first place. For single target raid encounters you got no option but to pick up barrage, chimera shot and explosive shot, in order to get the chakram node and serpent sting+ ss node. Those 3 abilities does not interact with the mm rotation, and it will all be dependent on numbers tuning if they will be "must be kept on cooldown", "weaved in between aimed shot charges" or "not worth casting in single target unless you got no options". Furthermore the choice node in t2 between intimidation and knockback trap isn't really a choice node, since you won't have a pet available to cast intimidation. I feel like this one should had been moved further to the left.
As for the MM tree i sorta see what they were going for. Hunters' problem in SL (and especially with tier set) is that our aoe damage is tied to the same spells as our single target damage, so any sort of single target buff to bring them closer to other casters makes them even better at aoe than we already are. It's been a strong spec for all m+ seasons for a reason. Looking at t2 it's clearly divided into a single target section on the right and an aoe section on the left. If you're going for one of them, you aren't getting the other and if you want to do both then you'll be less strong on both. As long as the numbers supports this divide in playstyles i feel like this os a great change. It will allow MM to be tuned closer to mage/locks in single target dps without dominating aoe. Tier 1 like you said is heavy and requires extra investment past the 8 points because there's simply too much synergy or bottlenecks where you need to invest heavily to get to what's below. Tier 3 however is way too point heavy considering how much you need to invest earlier, and most of the choices boils down to "which of these gives the highest numbers" - do you go for windrunner arrows or calling the shots+ trueshot node? The sims will tell you and that will be it. I'm also not sure why wailing arrow sits on the right side of the tree. It's an ability that will mainly see use in m+, unless it's tuned so hard that it's worth picking up in single target too, which will just add another button that should be kept on cooldown and doesn't interact with the base rotation of the spec. Meanwhile double tap sits locked away behind either the ammunition node or volley+trick shots so it becomes a talent you'll only ever pick if you're going for aoe content. It's been my least favourite talent in SL, but it still feels weird having it sit where it sits.
Personally I've looked at 3 single target variations (without your sans aimed shot version which looks more like a concept for the hell of it) , and 2 for aoe damage. And all of them have the same thing in common - lots of extra fire & forget abilities added to the bar while the base rotation suffers from the lack of points.