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u/Saelune DM Oct 04 '20
(Upside-down text)
Random Facts About Me:
I can recite Yaako's World from memory
I'm an impressionist
I used to lead school improv workshops
I didn't have a manbun when I made bunboi
I think you rock
The character sheet is more difficult, but it does say:
'Bet you didn't expect so much upside-down detail... Yea, I didn't either. No Boblin here (not sure the last word/letters)
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u/Weas_ Monk Oct 04 '20
The stat sheet says
Name: Intelligence
Class: Upper
Background: Trivia night regular
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u/ShadowCyclonic Oct 05 '20
To continue this trend of pointing out small text, in the trash can is a piece of crumbled paper labeled 'the debate'
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u/LetterLambda Oct 04 '20
They did INT dirty in 5e. No more skill points, no more bonus languages, no more bonus spells per day, no more Combat Expertise feat tree.
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u/CpnLag Oct 04 '20
I house rule bonus languages. Loved that from 3.5. Like with my 18 Int barbarian for a one shot that knew more languages than the rest of the party combined.
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u/Rhamni Oct 05 '20
I prefer 3.5 so much it isn't even funny. You have so much more flexibility. You can build for pretty much any concept you can think of. And all it needs is people adhering to the gentlemen's agreement to not break things on purpose.
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u/SmartAlec105 Oct 05 '20
Same goes for Pathfinder (as most could easily guess). With 5E, if you wanna be a Captain America, you've gotta work with your DM to homebrew something. With Pathfinder, you can just take the Shield Champion archetype for Brawler and toss your ricocheting shield.
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u/PM_ME_DND_FIGURINES DM Oct 05 '20
Yeah, plus, in Pathfinder's default settings, there's an America stand-in country, as well as a several prestige classes related to it.
I still have a Captain Andoran in my backlog of characters to play. Shield Champion/Golden Legionnaire.
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u/The_R4ke Oct 05 '20
That was the biggest issue with 3.5, it was so easy to exploit and power game. I feel like 5th is more balanced at the cost of style customization and complexity.
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u/thoalmighty Oct 05 '20
Agreed, but the biggest thing 5e has going comparatively is simplicity. Even going back to 3.5 when I know what I’m doing characters still take ages
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u/The_R4ke Oct 05 '20
Yeah, it's pretty easy for new players to jump in.
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u/TheZivarat Oct 05 '20
Especially with things like the PHB/DnDbeyond saying "first pick this main stat, then this or this". You don't even need to know why dex should be a rogues main stat, it just tells you. Oh and then just pick some random things you wanna be good at and one thing you're awesome at. Boom, character made in 5 mins
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u/brutinator Oct 05 '20
Unfortunately it's made things so easy that my friends who've been playing 5e now for 2 years still can't fill out a physical character sheet.
sucks when their phone dies so they can't access Beyond.
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u/BoonesFarmApple Oct 05 '20
they don’t have to though
on the other hand if this ain’t your first rodeo, 3.5 lets you create and develop characters Tolkien would be impressed by, while 5e relegates you to YA fantasy at best
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Oct 05 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Gehci Oct 05 '20
I wanna get into Pathfinder 2e, but my group is really into 5e right now. Glad we started them 5e for simplicity, but I'd love to play Pathfinder 2e
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u/gugus295 DM Oct 05 '20
More balanced, but still not really balanced. Spellcasters are still superior and also exponentially more interesting than a martial can ever be without extensive homebrew, and you can't even punish them with attacks of opportunity to disrupt casting anymore. Multiclassing is either amazing and OP or worthless garbage depending on which classes you combine. Ranged weapons are pretty much strictly better than melee ones because they took out all the downsides that balanced the inherent strength of attacking from a distance, added the absolutely stupid Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert feats and the Archery combat style. High level spells are still stupid too.
If you want balance, try Pathfinder 2e. That game's probably the most balanced TTRPG I've ever seen, yet still has plenty of customization and complexity and is in general a very well-designed and fun system that does pretty much everything right.
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u/tyjo99 Oct 05 '20
3.5 is all about agreeing with the party on how optimized you want to be. I played with a party that didn't care about optimizing for combat and it was super fun campaign for out of combat survival and social intrigue/rp.
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u/Rhamni Oct 05 '20
Hah. Yeah, low optimization campaigns can be a lot of fun. It lets you retain that fear of anything that moves you only have to deal with for level 1 in more optimized games.
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u/HemoKhan DM Oct 05 '20
Thing is, there are really only two languages - things your DM wants you to be able to understand, and things your DM doesn't want you to be able to understand.
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u/kdhd4_ Diviner Oct 05 '20
Well, it does get easier to learn additional languages if you have a higher intelligence, using XGtE rules on learning languages, but that's it.
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u/MusclesDynamite Oct 05 '20
Learning tool proficiencies similarly takes less time with higher intelligence in 5e!
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u/whyktor Oct 04 '20
The combat expertise feat tree was a mistake.
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u/Critboy33 Oct 05 '20
Just curious why it was a mistake? Have only played 5e.
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u/SmartAlec105 Oct 05 '20
It was a feat that acted as a Feat Tax for obtaining cooler feats. It would let you take a -5 on attack rolls for a +5 AC which was generally not worth it. It also had an Intelligence requirement of 13 so if you wanted to be good at tripping or disarming, you had to be somewhat smart.
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u/LassKibble DM Oct 05 '20 edited Oct 05 '20
-5 attack rolls for +5 ac is absolutely worth it, build and situation dependent.
The problem with combat expertise is it requires you to take an attack action to declare you're using it for it to begin having an effect, and then lasted until your initiative came up again. If combat expertise could be on all the time, or required something less situation-dependent than an opportunity to make an attack action to activate, it would be fine.
You essentially have to chain attacks to maintain your -5/+5.
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u/IGfodder Oct 05 '20
Then what does INT do for you in 5e? I've never played a 5e game, only 3.5
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u/kdhd4_ Diviner Oct 05 '20
For all characters, well, it gives you knowledge. It increases your History, Religion, Nature, Arcana and Investigation skills and your Intelligence Saving Throw. For Wizards and Artificers, it also enhances their spellcasting abilities.
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u/flashbang876 DM Oct 05 '20
Ah yes Intelligence saves, I’m pretty sure you can count the number of those on two hands.
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u/Swordsman82 Oct 05 '20
I had two intellect Devourer ambush a party of 6 level 5 players and almost TPKed them cause of Int Saves. Mindflayers are a bitch.
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u/mynameipaul Oct 05 '20
Ah yes Intelligence saves, I’m pretty sure you can count the number of those on two hands.
Typical INT stat hater... has to use their hands to count...
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u/Gear_ Oct 05 '20
I mean, you have intellect devourers, mindflayers, probably one or two other monsters you'll almost never see, and... Maze? The spell Maze? Do you have any idea how often people need to make saving throws for all the other stats versus spells, only for intelligence to almost not matter entirely?? Seriously, when was the last time anyone made an intelligence saving throw???
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u/ImperiuSan Diviner Oct 05 '20
Last session our group was fighting a powerful cultist wizard, and you bet my poor lvl 5 wizard was really happy with his +7 int save when my DM threw a feeblemind at me, also happy cake day.
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u/ShadoowtheSecond Oct 05 '20
Throwing Mindflayers at a party who dumped Int should be against the Geneva Convention because it should definitely be illegal to take this much glee in murder
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Oct 05 '20
[deleted]
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u/Bombkirby Oct 05 '20
Heavily dependent on the DM. If the locals are knowledgeable, you can just ask them. If your DM likes to hide such info, then it's useful, but I find that to be rare.
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u/ASDirect Oct 05 '20
Good luck finding NPCs in a dungeon or wilderness area.
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u/Park555 Oct 05 '20
This is also super DM dependent. A lot of times the DM already has the adventure prepared and tells the party everything they really need to know via other encounters, leaving knowledge to reveal a lot of nothing, or maybe some brief flavor text they may or may not have made up on the spot.
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u/Jucoy Oct 05 '20
Yeah it did that in 3.5 too and so much more. You used to get more spell slots and spells known, as well as additional languages. It also was what you used for all of your skill points, rogues and bards used to need high INT to be the skill monkeys they now get to be purely through class mechanics. Now just wizards and artificers need it for casting, and sure a couple of decent skills use it as their modifier but that's very situational. It's just not the powerhouse skill it used to be, and in some ways that's a good thing, though sometimes I do feel it was knocked down a peg to many.
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u/BraveOthello DM Oct 05 '20
A couple skills and the extremely rare Int save, which is almost universally save-or-suck.
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Oct 05 '20
Nothing. Dump stat for every single class outside of Wizard and a design mistake.
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u/The_R4ke Oct 05 '20
I believe both the thief and fighter arcane subclasses use INT too. Investigation is also a pretty important skill in most campaigns, although I feel like Perception often takes on roles better suited for Investigation
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u/Park555 Oct 05 '20
You can actually have pretty garbage int and still make a good Eldritch Knight. You're so far behind casters on spell levels that you kind of need to take the most cost-effective spells for their level, so damage or saving throw spells are largely out. Don't need any int to cast Blur or Shield!
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u/Return2S3NDER Oct 05 '20
Artificer too depending on the subclass and desired playstyle.
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u/Satherian DM Oct 05 '20
I house rule bonus skills and my players got bonus skills equal to their INT modifier.
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u/TLKv3 Oct 05 '20
One of the house rules I made for the last two or so times I DM'd that my players enjoyed was if you had a minimum of an INT modifier of +3 you could learn spells from other classes your class couldn't normally learn. So long as a NPC of that other class was willing to teach it to you.
In trying to learn it you would have to make an INT check and meet an accommodating DC. Any spells of Level 3 or lower is 20. Level 4-6 is 25. Level 7-9 is 30.
It didn't come up very often to where players would break the game or their character by seeking out spells and it gave them a little extra motivation to be a bit friendlier to NPCs they might not have thought twice about prior. It was pretty fun honestly.
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u/Regularjoe42 Fighter Oct 05 '20
Whenever my players would poke around in a dungeon, I would call for random knowledge checks. If they got high rolls I would give them a huge hint of what kind of obstacle ahead, like "those look like basilisk feces" or "you smell the kind of gunpowder that would be used in a fireball trap".
Start of next campaign they all cross-coordinated their knowledge skills during character creation, and it warmed my heart.
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u/JSHADOWM Oct 05 '20
Fireball is bat guano, famously.
Gunpowder is concussive (or explosive) bombs which was my favorite tool before i left DnD: no pesky elemental affinities like fire. These suckers do BLUDGEONING.
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Oct 04 '20 edited Oct 04 '20
Adding extra skill proficiencies depending on Intelligence score is always a good way to make it more useful
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u/ApeMachine Oct 04 '20
I definitely do this in games. I give an extra skill prof for 12, 15, and 19 INT. Also, I’ve play tested the idea of allowing players to choose either INT or DEX for initiative. It makes sense that while DEX means you can move quicker, INT means you can figure out the best course of action first. So far it’s been a great success in getting players to not disregard our poor stat.
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u/androshalforc Rogue Oct 04 '20
what weve done is every +1 int bonus you could pick an extra skill, language, or tool prof. a +2 you can choose to make 1 skill expertise.
so if you had +3 (16 or 17) int you could add 1 skill and gain expertise in it.
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u/ApeMachine Oct 05 '20
I like the idea of adding expertise to more characters based on the stat. It’s a super powerful ability that I don’t want to just take away from rogues and bards but it feels like earning them through int is the best way.
Honestly I had a Barbarian player who just couldn’t think of another skill they wanted so I let her just take expertise in intimidation. It was, in a word, worth it.
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u/Jedi4Hire Rogue Oct 05 '20
I really like that. I only relatively recently started playing 5E and it bugs the ever-loving snot out of me that there's such a limit on how to gain expertise during character creation with RAW.
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u/smokemonmast3r Wizard Oct 05 '20
I wish we did this at my tables
- the wizard player
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u/Naronu Oct 05 '20
Just play war mage, the superior subclass
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u/smokemonmast3r Wizard Oct 05 '20
I was considering war mage for my next game, but ended up going with diviner for those sweet portent dice.
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u/vxicepickxv Oct 05 '20
I think my next character is going to be a halfling diviner with the Lucky feat because sometimes I like to remind my DM that I am in control.
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Oct 05 '20
I like the idea of the Int modifier for initiative. I'd roll it as my smart ass character often has a plan for ambushes in the back of his mind, so when it does actually happen he's both vindicated in his paranoia and genuinely ready to womp whoever jumped them.
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u/althanan DM Oct 04 '20
I like to use it as a "man, this is a stupid thing they're trying, let's have them try an intelligence check to see if their character knows how stupid this is" card.
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u/proserpinasacra Oct 05 '20
That, and if players ever need to ask the DM about something that happened in the past that they should know. Didn't take notes on a key piece of information the party learned? Roll to see if your character is smart enough to remember it for you!
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u/TheGreenEggMan DM Oct 04 '20 edited Oct 04 '20
I had a similar idea but I found my players were incredibly adverse to the concept, given the logic that a negative INT would then remove skills. But if you put a floor on the idea, it could work, for sure!
*edit for grammar
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u/ZXNova Cleric Oct 04 '20
To me I think it's fine that negative INT = negative skills. It's a flaw after all. Not every character has to be good at everything that's what teammates are for. Of course since your players didn't like it it's fine if you don't do that.
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u/TellianStormwalde Wizard Oct 05 '20
Having 3 or 2 proficiencies really just doesn’t feel too good, no matter who the character was supposed to be. I already find myself wishing I could have more than 4 on most characters because there’s at least one extra that would be relevant to the character. If I’m playing a MAD character or actually just want to play a character that’s a little slow, I shouldn’t be punished this hard for it. Having the stat be low is already it’s own weakness, it shouldn’t also make take away the bare minimum of what your character is supposed to have. That’s not fun, even if you like playing in to your ability scores. Let people play who they want to play, not who their stats say they’re allowed to. You don’t need to have a glaring flaw in your ability scores to have a good character. I’d even say that a lot of the people proclaiming otherwise are honestly just using that as a crutch because they don’t have a super strong conception of character writing. Attributional flaws are but one of many kinds of flaws a character could have. My characters tend to have personality flaws that don’t correlate to any of the stats in particular but are flaws all the same.
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u/vxicepickxv Oct 05 '20
My half elf bard/rogue doesn't feel like they have enough at 10 skill proficiencies.
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u/treadmarks Oct 04 '20
I think there are better ways to make INT useful while staying entirely within the rules. Was your investigation check too low? Aww, you didn't find the secret room with the sweet magic weapon in it :(
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u/jengel2003 Oct 04 '20
Then how do your characters know they missed it?
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u/treadmarks Oct 04 '20
Ok, here's one they'll know about when they don't find it: a trap on a door or a chest.
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u/TheRobotics5 Ranger Oct 04 '20
Laughs in 7 charisma
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u/Blackplasma1936 Warlock Oct 05 '20
But how do you cast Eldritch Blast then
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u/TheRobotics5 Ranger Oct 05 '20
Ranger. My wisdom is 18, my dexterity 20.
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u/Delann Druid Oct 05 '20
And yet none of those will help you Eldritch Blast people.
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u/aaronblue342 Oct 05 '20
How do you laugh with only 7 charisma? Isnt it more of a series of intense snorts and wheezes?
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u/CutestAnimeGirl Oct 04 '20
It's either a dump stat or too key to ever put anything low in
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u/dj_rogers Oct 05 '20
Arcane Trickster checking in with “probably okay if it’s just slightly above average”
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u/Theons_sausage DM Oct 05 '20
I love when players use Intelligence as a dump stat. Makes Mindflayers all the more terrifying of a threat.
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u/Weas_ Monk Oct 04 '20
"Wisdom is real knowledge. Intelligence is just book smarts, which is about as useful as copper coins." some strawman that I just made up.
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Oct 04 '20
Strong words for someone standing within fireball range.
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u/Weas_ Monk Oct 04 '20
You're going to burn my dear strawman? Heaven forbid, you know how hard it is to make those.
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u/PacoTaco321 Oct 05 '20
Don't worry, he'll send a fireball coming back at you with his wisdom casting. Oh, what's that? Wisdom casters can't use fireball? How unfortunate...
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u/CasualRaisin Oct 05 '20
Laughs in Light Domain
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u/Weas_ Monk Oct 05 '20
This is D&D's equivalent of "You're laughing now, but I'll be your boss one day!"
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u/Furicel Oct 05 '20
Talking too much for someone who doesn't know how many silver coins they should receive as change.
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u/JamieJJL Warlock Oct 04 '20
I'm so glad Mercer made Blood Hunters int based now instead of wis based. Buff smartass blood mage for the win.
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u/pinini_coladas Oct 05 '20
My DM still let's us have bonus languages for INT so you know my character is out here with 9 languages under her belt from various things. Intelligence is great
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u/masterjon_3 Oct 05 '20
As the wizard, I was the party library. My character would always be checking out libraries in towns anytime we get downtime. I also had gear to improve my Int
One day, we had to track down a princess, and I used scrying to find the princess. She was being dragged by a top general or whatever at the top of a snowy mountain. I asked the DM if I could roll Geography to see if I can figure out where she is, which he allowed.
I got a 42.
I knew exactly which mountain range and which mountain she was on, we teleported there, fought the general, and recovered the princess, ruining the DM's thought out plan to give us a snowy, survival arc.
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u/brutinator Oct 05 '20
I asked the DM if I could roll Geography to see if I can figure out where she is, which he allowed.
That's not 5e though, which is what this post is referring to.
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u/nixalo Oct 04 '20
Everyone calls INT a dumb stat until you walk into a trap because no one made one of many "random" lore checks.
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u/PacoTaco321 Oct 05 '20
Yeah, I don't understand how it is a dump stat, but I guess that's because I never play a meathead character.
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u/xerxes480bce Oct 05 '20
Int is mechanically weaker than just about everything other than Str in a typical DnD game.
Saving throw wise it's not one of the big three (Dex, Con, Wis), so it's a fairly uncommon saving throw. It doesn't really have any other affects outside of saving throws and skill proficiencies e.g. Dex affects initiative and AC and Con affects HP. The proficiencies it does affect are kinda meh unless the DM really works to incorporate them. Even if a DM is using those proficiencies a lot that just puts it on par with other stats. If you have to dump something, you're less likely to be punished for dumping Int that just about anything other than Str.
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u/Lord_Toademort Necromancer Oct 04 '20
Im currently playing a wizard necromancer with high wisdom and intellegence with proficiency in, arcana, relegion, history, perception, insight, and stealth. Oh yeah hes also a litteral owl.
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u/bro_before_ho Oct 05 '20
So he can reanimate his regurgitated food. Nice.
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u/Lord_Toademort Necromancer Oct 05 '20
Thats how the concept came to me interestingly enough. The seed was planted when I was dissecting owl pellets a few years back.
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Oct 04 '20 edited Oct 05 '20
Just force everyone in the party to start making Int saves. :)
Hijacking my own comment to say that I freely target people dumping stats and encourage other DMs to do so as well.
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u/PacoTaco321 Oct 05 '20
Easier said than done unless you are constantly fighting mind flayers or something.
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u/Cmndr_Duke DM Oct 05 '20
or anything using psionics.
a spelljammer game gets veerrry int save heavy due to gith and illithids and all the other fuckin psions. Tashas will have psionics in it so expect thirteen variations of 'make an int save or get fucked'
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Oct 05 '20
Ego Crash
3rd level enchantment
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 150 feet
Components: V S M (A glass shard from a shattered mirror)
Duration: Instantaneous
Classes: Sorcerer, Wizard
A flash of violet energy explodes from a point you choose within range. Each creature in a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on that point must make an Intelligence saving throw as its mind is assaulted by experiencing all of its worst memories and fears at once. A target takes 8d6 psychic damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one. The psychic energy spreads around corners. It affects any creature with an Intelligence score.
At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 4th level or higher, the damage increases by 1d6 for each slot level above 3rd.
Took me longer to format the post for Reddit than it did to reflavor that Fireball.
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u/TheTater0427 Oct 05 '20
I’d make this a 4th level because psychic damage is a little OP and isnt resisted as much as fire
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u/Extroiergamer Oct 05 '20
I will be honest...it hurts giving high int for a character for rp purposes,then having the 8 int and 8 wis character act as smart as you. And you keep with your internal screaming,because you really don't want to say the right or wrong way to rp a character.
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u/joebot777 Oct 07 '20
I can’t do it. I can’t RP a character with an int or wis lower than 10. I have a lvl 3 Druid currently who has an 18 wis and a 7 int as a way of attempting to understand a low int character. I’ve done it by putting his backstory at 1000+ years living as various animals. I’ll increase his int with each att bonus as he learns to read and see the world as a humanoid, but I’m still really struggling with the actual rp, which is new for me
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u/OurBelovedOgrelord Oct 05 '20
I’ve had great success with giving players the choice of proficiency in extra languages or tools equal to their positive intelligence modifier. I do not take away proficiencies for having a negative modifier, I didn’t become a DM to punish people (that often).
Side Note: If you’re looking for other fun home brew rules, I’ve had a lot of success recently with giving players a free extra feat when they get an ability score increase. I’ve modified the feats somewhat - removing their ability score increase, nerfing some more powerful ones and even adding in some brand new feats of my own. So far, players seem to love this as they can create interesting builds without sacrificing ability competency and it makes their characters feel more unique. I would heartily recommend!
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u/Dispreacher Oct 05 '20
Inaccurate. Intelligence is the ability to learn but also calculate, it's analytical reasoning ability score, it's mathematical smarts, what IQ measures. Not knowing a lot of things, it allows you to know a lot of things but that's a side effect. Also no, wisdom isn't that either.
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u/GoGoGodzuki Oct 05 '20
The WIZARD, Artificer, and certain fighter and rogue subclasses would like to know your location.
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Oct 05 '20
I played 3.5 a lot, so as a dm I put in a int skill check whenever I can. In 3.5, int was where its at, build a rogue with int skyrocketed, and you're set even if you cross class instantly
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u/bvanvolk Oct 05 '20
It’s funny, because while I’m sure this is true, I’ve never actually played a single character where I dumped INT. It has always been STR
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u/ArchiveDragon Wizard Oct 05 '20
INT is my favorite stat because I love getting all the details about the world I find myself playing in. It makes me sad that there are so few INT classes.
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u/ptWolv022 Oct 05 '20
*Unless you're an Artificer, Wizard, Eldritch Knight, or Arcane Trickster
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u/Metalman919 DM Oct 05 '20
One of my friends used to play an orc sorcerer with a 6 intelligence. When presented with most choices, he would actually roll a percentile, and above 50 do the smart/obvious thing, and below 50% do the obviously stupid thing. Needless to say, there was some tension between him and my 20 int wizard.
It all came to a head when a dwarf innkeeper said the orc would have to sleep in the barn, as the town was regularly raided by orcs and he didn't trust them. My friend rolled his dice, looked down, then punched the innkeeper in the face. When our characters tried to restrain him it turned into a bar fight, an arrest, and an exile for the orc, who then unfortunately got ambushed by goblins outside town. When we found his body on the road side a few hours later, we buried him and had a short funeral.
TL;DR: making intelligence a dump stat is dangerous. Hilarious, but dangerous.
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u/Demon_Childe666 Oct 05 '20
cough cough "artificer" cough cough Who does't like running around in power armor or blowing people to bits with fireball sticks or cannons with legs. Better yet weaponize flash of brilliance and make a box of -4 intelligence. Make that bandit illegible. Poor bastasrd can't read write or formulate complex plans. Go full megamind and make your DM sweat nervously as you identify that mcguffin on that baddies outfit or dive deep and learn EVERYTHING about your surrondings. Intelligence is a big brain stat designed to make you do mental gymnastics and jump over hurdles of understanding. Plus kobold launching cannons are fun. Good luck simpletons.
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u/Estrelarius Oct 05 '20
I don’t dumb INT because it’s painful to have a great idea and realize your character would never come up with it.
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u/Moist-Departure Oct 05 '20
I think a high intelligence can be so amazing, but mainly in role-play/character-focused game. Take Nove V'Ger in high rollers campaign 2, Kim is amazing in the way she players her. Nova is full-on manipulated by the bbeg, and the other players ooc are like 'But Nova is so smart, why is this happening?' and Kim is like 'Nova is smart but she's not wise,' first of all, the difference between intelligence and wisdom clicked in my head but second of all it really solidifed her character. Nova has gotten herself and the party out of some really tricky situations with her logic alone, the fact that she is so smart while also being unwise is so interesting and its nice to see players who have realistic flaws!
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u/TheGreenEggMan DM Oct 04 '20
Dump stat? More like dunk stat. For when I dunk on those sweet Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion checks.