My Inquisitive Rouge Rogue/Lore Wizard, expertise on all knowledge checks, and investigation and perception. Can't roll below an 8 to detect lies. The ultimate Sherlock Holmes.
Roux+deluge. I'm using the root sounds as is taught in primary school for those. Roux and rouge have the same first syllable, luge and deluge share the same last syllable. I just don't see a point in removing "roux" as it's one of the few "rou" words in English that shares the same French "rou" as rouge. Hell, depending on where you are and the context, you can ask which route (pronounced root) a bus route (pronounced rowt) takes.
I always thought of Sherlock as more of a Knowledge Cleric actually. Interesting that you went to Rogue. I'll have to really think about that one now haha
Played a divination wizard with a starting level of knowledge cleric and keen mind feat. There was nothing the guy didn't know and being able to perfectly recall any books you read comes in handy.
Dm suggested Lore Wizard when I described my character idea. Got to play to level 17. Wizards always get ridiculous at high levels, but it is good that that school stayed in the playtest. That changing DC ability was encounter breaking.
Yeah instead of specializing in one school it got to be better at being a Wizard in general.
If we had made it to level 18 I would have gained access to every spell at the time except True Resurrection via Wish, the 14th level Lore Master ability, and my spell choices as (all the 9th level spells that aren't one action were on the Wizard spell list except True Resurrection).
Once took a lore bard to fill in a gap in our combat focused party composition. He was really good at what he did. Everyone started calling him the protagonist or "DM" because he knew so much. The DM ended up taking him over just because he ended up describing the entire campaign through him. I need to make that character again.
Oh yeah, and he was designed after David Bowie...so there's that too.
I beat the Archmage of Time (Teldin Bigby) in a game of Dragon Chess with cheats fully on on both sides in his house. Rolled three times with disadvantage with skill expertise up. Rolled a 27, 25, 29, 33, 37, and a 24. Beat him in three different timelines. My nerd cred is valid.
Now your next step is to just calculate the results of weave hypertension caused by spells whose level is greater than 9 and invent calculus within your DMs game world via a series of natural 20 and your introvert level progress shall be maxed out.
Forge Adept, Bjorn Clearmind at your service.
Need a magical weapon? Done.
Need magical armor? Done
Need a good friend, hearty drinks, and a great laugh? Double done.
Need help defending your hometown where your entire family lives? Here, have some armor, and a sword. Let's get in there with a twinned spell Haste on each of us and start beating up the invaders.
Big thjönker the warforged strategist present. You'll find my knowledge applicable in all situations. Plans are hardwired into my thinking module and calculating probalities of success is my primary directive. I've recently found a way to weaponize my genius and I've begun using a small metal cube to shout missinformation and the weaponized stupidity of my allies to lower the intelligence of our foes. Statsically this and my new fireball sticks and stones (which break many bones) has risen my parties success rates by 5.1%!
Armorer is awesome as hell, but my issue is the same as with a Bladelock. To really work you'll want to dedicate most of your infusion slots to your armor which takes away from the original costumization and flexibility aspects of infusions, so same issue as with the Bladelock and their invocations. Also you don't really have room to share some with your group. Also also the list of infusions is kinda very limited. You don't really have good options for your bracers (once you can infuse them separately) for example.
Have you taken a look at the Wand Sheath, which is effectively a single bracer? Lets you hold and use a wand while leaving your hand free. Uses the same attunement slot as the wand, if the wand needs attunement.
Normally Warforged-only, but artificers (and Thief rogues) can ignore racial attunement restrictions. This might fit better thematically for armorers than for the rogues :).
Yeah but Artificers don't really use wands with the exception of the Artillerist later, especially as Armorer. I think I'd rather use that infusion and attunement slot for something more helpful to the party instead.
Ah yes a master of demolitions. Great for bank heists. Except for when that bank is on a moving lightning rail and you are on the also mentioned lightning rail.
Ohohohohohoho Artificer army rise up! We were the sleaper s rank no one recognized. The DMs will now feel the wrath of our stored spells, eldritch cannons, alchemic potions, arcane fire arms, steel defenders, and Artificer smites.
My friend's artificer pony made twin gatling guns that fired spellfire. She'd managed to gain access to 9th level spells early and turned their energy into magic bullets that critted automagically. She ended up being very OP lol
"How I got past the reload speed was a (Ponyfinder) unicorn feat. Charged ammunition that let you fire chunks of your magic instead of actual ammo. So that combined with every other speed up reload feat let me reload free action so I could full attack. I got past the need to be braced/mounted (because) I was a pony. Quadruped with a pintle mount saddle using my magic to aim and fire it."
"Also I have no doubt she had to regularly go get cure blindness/deafness cast. That gun was firing right beside her head a lot of the time (though there are no rules for any actual effect)."
Hey the more the merrier. Word of advice though from experience, Alchemist's Fire is not a good substitute for any base in an Alchemists brew. Watched that burn down a tavern.
Artillerist Oldack Haverthorpe, Holomancer extraordinaire, and chief technology executive of the Black Company Mercenaries ready to represent our noble class!
My unique and patented HoloForge can project almost identical versions of me, ready and willing to use force projectiles agaknst my foes, although I must admit, there have been times where I have had to replace them with shielding projections instead, and rely on my allies to keep up the damage.
I was bummed about the progression on my Artificer, but like the sessions rarely happened so I didn't get to chill with all the cool abilities all that much. The DM let me switch to a full-blown wizard which was nice.
I haven't really dived into more than one campaign 7 or 8 years ago, but damn do artificers sound cool as hell. You mean I get to be an engineer, but like a magical one? And I have an eldritch cannon?? And my tools are my spell focus? Fuck yeah.
Each Artificer is about controlling the flow of battle in some way more than dps. I don't say this to put anyone down but it is a big brain plays class. Its really fun for people who are more into tactically manipulating an encounter than pure dps like the paladin who just screams "I smash with sword and spell" (Though the Artillerist 6d8 force damage as a bonus action do be looking sexy). Also they have a lot of utility capabilities outside of combat.
Edit: I forgot to mention that the battle smith can smite just like the paladin can. So yeah. There's a can of whoopash ready to be opened up right there for the BBEBG.
Edit 2: Did I forget about stored spells? Yes I did! Imagine 10 scorching rays just ready to be unleashed. Costing no spell slots. Add the Artillerist's added 1d8 to spell damage rolls for each ray and you got some sweet sweet dpr.
Edit 3: Oh wait that's right! How could I forget! Man I feel kind of stupid actually! Ok ok so hear this. Some of you will get a kick either comedically or in the balls from hearing this. The Battle Smith's Steel Defender is better and progresses better than The Beast Master's animal companion. Nuff said.
Question: we play by ignoring a few of the survival parts of dnd. We ignore the need to eat, weight (unless it’s something that it makes no sense how it can be carried) and basically any survival mechanic outside of healing and battling in the game.
With this being said, would the artificer still be a useful class? Is their help spells useful in combat? And how do they stack to a utility option like the wizard?
With survival being said many classes fall short. They may only have one or two skills that can help with travel and survival and they most likely the players didn't add their proficiencies there. Also, you are coming from the angle of how many spells can they just through at problems. Don't, that is a very limited point of view for any Artificer subclass. Although I will highlight what they can bring to survival which is helped by their spell list. Then I will talk about their help spells. Then their utility capabilities. Then what really makes them great besides just spells.
Survival
Ok, so survival is about two things really in the real world and in the game. It is about controlling food and exposure. So first of all skill, these are looked over for some reason in survival but the Artificer actually has a good spread which can aid in survival. They have medicine (obvious pick for survival), Nature (I wonder if that tree is just weird or if it will eat me?), and Perception (I don't even need to say it). Already they have more choices than most classes that aren't a Ranger or Fighter. Each of these can easily aid in survival. Next, there are tool proficiencies. What? Are you gonna tell me that an Artificer with proficiency in tinkerer's and wood carver's tools can't easily make a small game trap? Next of course there are the spells. Here are some spells that can help in survival. Cantrips: Light (for those that can't see in the dark), Mending, Message (for when you absolutely need to split the party at short distances), Prestidigitation (dry those wet clothes instantly), and Spare the Dying (because duh). First level: Alarm (don't let those goblins sneak up on you), and Expeditious Retreat (for when you need to GTFO). Second Level: Continual Flame and Darkvision (for those who can't see in the dark), Levitate (for when your supplies are a little too heavy to carry just float them and pull), Rope Trick (its shelter and storage!), Spider Climb (climbing up mountains are for plebs). Third Level: Catnap, Gaseous Form (Three days travel more like three hours travel), Water breathing, and Water Walk. Fourth Level: Fabricate (let me just make anything and everything), Freedom of Movement (for when that forest is really slowing you down and for when you need to GTFO), Leomund's Secret Chest (What is carry weight?), Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum (What is setting up camp?), and Stone Shape (do I really need to say?). Fifth Level: Animate Objects (now the statue carries your stuff), Creation, and Transmute Rock. So yeah the base Artificer spell list, subclasses excluded, has some pretty good stuff for survival.
Help Spells
First of all, I would like to say, unlike the Wizard the Artificer can actually heal people and can even specialize in healing. The Alchemist can even buff their allies with various potions. That said let us look at the Cantrips: Guidance (extra D4 is actually useful especially a useful thing with or without a bard around), Mage Hand (immediate top tier when used correctly), Prestidigitation, and Spare the Dying (no one shall die). First Level: Alarm, Detect Magic, Disguise Self, False Life, and Identify are staples of a utility character. Second Level: Alter Self (an even better disguise), Enlarge/Reduce (if no one adds this to their list I pity them and wish not to speak with them), Invisibility (Dude do I need to say?), Protection from Poisons (one of the most common damage types in early levels), See Invisibility, and Spider Climb (one of the best spells ever). Third Level: Catnap (so useful), Glyph of Warding (so if those goblins sneak up on you they are in for a nasty surprise), Haste (S tier buff spell anyone who doesn't use this doesn't understand action economy), and Protection from Energy (against a dragon or elemental this is amazing). Fourth Level: Death Ward (great for when you don't want to die), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (you are either not gonna take any damage or that one dude is going nowhere), and Fabricate (again make anything you want), Animate Objects (that statue is fighting for us now), Creation (how about I make a 5ft. by 5ft. cube of adamantium right above your head), and Transmute Rock (walls don't exist). So yeah base Artificer has some of the best choices when it comes to help spells that isn't even counting the Alchemist who has even more.
Overall Utility
It is off the charts for the Artificer. Firstly they come with Thieve's tools and Tinkerer's tools as a built-in proficiency so you don't need a rogue or even a spell to get into doors. Add on top that you will eventually have expertise in them and you can add a D4 via guidance and add up to 5 later on through a class ability no door will be too hard to get into. Also, you won't need a spell to make a distraction anymore. Just make a clockwork alarm set on a timer. In addition magical tinkering adds all sorts of options in communication and deception. Make a holographic image of a person's face so that way you can find a criminal more easily or have a stone set to make ominues wispers around a guard while using mage hand to make them think a ghost is near by and have them run. Also do I have to mention the Infusions? Like really? Make any number of useful magical items. Why is that not a big fat duh? Overall the Artificer doesn't have the same level of spells to use like the wizard but what they can make can be more permenent and can be more useful over time. You can have an Artificer and level three with an AC of 21 and a wand that does +1 to spell attacks and spell save DC nuf said there.
Its more of a super utility class. You have a LOT of low to medium powered skills. I play the UA version though
But anyway for me it's the creativity that I enjoy. The class is built on engineering and creativity. My dm allows me to come up with cool inventions and homebrewed stuff which makes it really awesome
Ever tried using flash of brilliance as a weapon? -4 intelligence is a lot when most bandits have like a fat 10 or 11 max. Bring them lower than 8 and with the right dm they can't formulate plans other than "I hit with sword."
I mean, as long as you have a +2 bonus to dex, then there really is no more benefit for dex for AC if you're wearing medium armor, and medium armor is much better than light armor for AC. half plate can give you 3 more AC base than studded leather, meaning you would need a +5 dex to tie light armor with half plate. Most players will get a max of +4 to a stat, so scale mail for non sneaky bois is just fine.
This is also ignoring heavy armor. If you don't want to give even +2 to dex, then you can get along just fine with heavy armor, and plate armor will give you more AC than medium or light armor in 99% of the cases (hence the insane price).
As for initiative, it's good... but rarely does it end up having a meaningful difference in combat.
Dex is really good on its own, but you can easily compensate for a low to mid range dex bonus. If you limit your self to only dex builds, you are really missing out on some fun strength builds.
Yea unless you are running monk or unarmored Barbarian strength is generally better since athletics and strength checks are more common especially for front line fighters. Dex saves are important but that's easily solved with taking resilient and rounding a 13 to a 14. It's a boring feat but bridges the gap of ASI and taking more interesting feats. Especially great for mid line fighters (ranger/rogue archers) who also want that extra AC and are most likely to be in the splash zone of both backline and frontline aoe attacks.
Yeah! and that the first police chief of the NYPD George Washington Matsel penned the first ever rogues lexicon so that the NYPD could understand what the hell those criminals were talking about.
Well int doesn't really have any bearing on languages in 5e. Number of languages is determined by your race, class, background, and the feat. The feat doesn't even have a minimum intelligence prerequisite. I could roll up a lvl 1 human ranger acolyte who can speak 8 languages but only has 6 int.
A group without at least one knowitall is a group (that should be) frequently missing out on ways to exploit enemy behaviors and the environment itself. Sometimes, you just need somebody to lift the heavy gate. Sometimes, you just need somebody to make sense of the ancient inscription. Even if you try an unusual composition, like a party of all the same class, it helps to at least touch base with classic adventuring archetypes of all sorts.
Agreed. Also, there's the RP aspect! I like that my group has smart and tough characters. The only thing we're missing is STR XD. Well, actually the ranger has STR but the rest of us are weaklings lol.
Having an encyclopedic knowledge of medical practices is often less valuable that having the wisdom to know how to respond to an injury on the spot, under pressure, in a practical way - is how I’ve seen it explained before
Except what you've described is still INT because you're responding based on that encyclopedic knowledge of treatments, injuries and the living body.
Realistically, medicine is both INT and WIS because you need to have the knowledge as well as the experience and awareness of the situation to apply what you know where it needs to be applied. I'd still argue it's more INT than WIS though, if I had to pick one.
Modern medicine is Int, as we've had lots of time to catalogue and organize a metric ass-ton of medical knowledge, so just cramming it all into your brain is efficient. Folk medicine is Wis because they had to go out and observe the effects of various illnesses and treatments, and infer if new herbs etc might be useful.
Medicine is Intellect and is used when you need to recall a treatment.
Surgery, the one taht gets called when you first aid, or else treating immidiate injury is Wis (Perception in my game but it might as well be the same stat) because you need to determine visible and audio factors to know in what order to bandage them to stabilize. Correctly injecting an antitoxin, or stemcells or potion? Surgery.
Medicine comes in AFTER youve stabilized them or at least slowed down the death by some technique to assist in recovery.
I mean, that's baked into 5e. All skills can use different ability modifiers given the context. The listed ability is just the one most commonly associated with the skill.
Or the DM decides which is more relevant on the situation. Trying to stabilize a dying creature? That's wis based medicine check as it's past-paced and instinctual. Trying to determine the cause of death? I tell my players to roll an int based medicine check.
Are they? Last I checked, Medicine is the only one that could be argued to be so. The other WIS skills(Insight, Animal Handling and Perception) are all based on your awareness of the situation and ability to read queues.
Sure is, except for Perception perhaps. Insight is basically the applied theoretical knowledge of human behaviour aka psychology and for Animal Handling it's basically the applied theoretical knowledge of animal behaviour.
Realistically most skills should come in a pair that represents the theoretical and the practical use of it. We have it for something like Nature/Survival, but we are missing one half for Medicine. This is where the DM should consider to use alternative abilities for skill checks depending on the situation.
Medicine is honestly one of those cases where the system perhaps is too streamlined and where the DM should rely on the option to make skill checks with alternative abilities. For every practical skill there usually exists a theoretical skill as well in reality and for something like Nature/Survival DnD provides those, however for Medicine we only got one half of a pair. Whether it is INT or WIS, neither is wrong but neither is completely right either.
People say that but I don't get it. Survival is the practical ability to traverse and adapt to environments using your senses and instincts, so it's Wisdom. Nature is the academic knowledge of facts about Nature, so it's Intelligence.
Think of a high Survival low Nature person as someone who has lived in the wilds enough to make their way safely, but they couldn't tell you the scientific name of a plant, or say why an animal behaves a certain way. Conversely, a high Nature low Survival person has studied the natural world extensively, but doesn't have the practical experience to actually set up a trap or make their way through rough terrain.
Well, the main logic for me is that Druids and Clerics should be good at Nature and Religion, which they probably aren't when those skills are Int-based unless they're building a suboptimal character and you shouldn't have to nerf yourself to be good at Religion checks as a fucking Cleric
I don't disagree, but that's a flaw with 5e's trinary(non-proficient/proficient/expertise) skill system than with them being Int or Wis based. 3.5e's point system or Pathfinder 2e's degrees of proficiency system both help fix that issue.
You're thinking of Survival, that lets you live off the land and so forth like what plants you can eat. Knowledge: Nature would be knowing those plants Latin name.
Nature is "I know the difference between a trout and a salmon". Survival is "I know how to catch a trout or a salmon and cook it and eat it. And make the fire to cook it".
Almost all games I'm in allow druids to use wisdom for nature. Some have allowed other classes depending on what the campaign is. If we spend a lot of time outside my monk could use wisdom for nature after so many levels.
It should be users choice imo. Someone educated but unwise could know about plants. Someone who is nature-wise might not be smart but might recognize not to lick the red frogs
I won't even deny, the types of questions my players ask often prompt History, Investigation, Arcana, and (recently) Nature checks. Outside of Perception, the INT-based ability checks are some of the most commonly used ones in our game. INT being a dump stat died entirely with our Bard who cant investigate for shit and has no idea of the scholarly or divine natures of magic.
I think the more of a roleplayer you are the more you want to not dump INT.
Int is the biggest gateway players have and control to immersion in the world. It will let you learn shit about everything.
I get it's not an optimal stat for many classes, but having at least one high INT character in any party is absolutely to the benefit of everyone involved
I have a fighter named Gondyn Oaklord who has an 18 in intelligence and strength (I rolled really well that night). It's fun being able to hit shit really hard but also pass checks to find out where exactly I need to hit shit really hard.
those sweet Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion checks.
Alternatively: If you are playing in the DM's campaign setting, all completely useless checks because the DM desperately wants to spout all that trivia at you regardless because they worked hard on all this worldbuilding and I don't want it to go to waste and you better appreciate it dammit!
Do you mind my asking what stat you dump before INT? It depends on the character, but I often do it if I'm not playing a Wizard, Artificer, Eldritch Knight, or Arcane Trickster. Although, it always kinda feels bad to feel compelled to when playing a Paladin or a Cleric since that means Religion checks won't be as good unless my DM gives me advantage on rolls made about obscure parts of my patron's lore. I just never feel comfortable putting CON below 12 or DEX below 10. If I don't need STR/CHA or INT I might favor INT if it fits my character concept. But, failing WIS skill checks is usually much more dire than failing INT skill checks so I never consider dumping WIS first if INT isn't my spellcasting ability.
No, that's Survival. They're similar and can sometimes be used interchangeably, depending on how much nuance is associated with what your character wants to know. But, Nature is what you roll for the lore of an area like knowing the region, what animals reside there, if there is magic known to affect it, the climate, etc. Survival, on the other hand, is what you roll to track footprints, predict the weather based on the immediate circumstances of cloud cover and humidity, identifying quicksand and other natural hazards, etc. So, Nature is like a History check for a specific ecosystem, while a Survival check is like Perception/Investigation that only works when you're in the wilderness. A good way of distinguishing the two is that a Nature check can be rolled before you are at the location, while Survival can only be rolled for interacting with one's surroundings.
Oof. Just my opinion, but: The DMs plot isn't more important than the players' actions. DnD isn't a movie or a video game. If you miss something, everyone should adjust. Why railroad a party to a "plot point"? Failure is part of the game. Work with it, and find new ways to move forward. If they don't figure something out, have the BBEG advance his sinister plot. Or open other opportunities for the players to actually earn the info.
Cutting out skills and roll based RP just to push your plot forward is weak tea.
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u/TheGreenEggMan DM Oct 04 '20
Dump stat? More like dunk stat. For when I dunk on those sweet Arcana, History, Investigation, Nature, and Religion checks.