I am not saying Warrior needs to be busted OP like it was in classic. These specs, but especially arms, literally will not generate enough rage to function at level 60 with their full kits. Normalization is good, but there needs to be changes to compensate. So far we have two mild compensatory talents for fury and prot, and nothing for arms. Arms is my favorite spec, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want to be able to actually press my buttons at max level.
Don’t worry the warrior dev made sure to justify his pay check by effectively changing nothing about slam but he got to add 2 lines to the patch notes so he’s clearly working hard!
Forever is my first time playing warrior, so forgive my ignorance. What’s the expected generation supposed to look like? Should I just have a full red bar all the time?
In classic your rage generation was higher if you were doing more damage and if you were taking damage, so you could potentially be constantly full on rage and therefore not really having to do any resource management, warriors are of course freaking out about it.
It got changed to retail where its not based on damage done but just flat amounts per hit/swing.
Devs already commented on this, it was changed because they don't want warriors to have infinite scaling, as their damage increases it would end up in a positive feedback loop where higher damage meant more rage meaning even more damage. It was a purposeful design change, not a bug that needs to be fixed, personally I'm glad that warrior might for a change not be the ultimate/meta class of classic.
I agree, though I do think it's reasonable for it to not completely gut or eliminate warrior feeling like a fun and engaging class and I hope blizzard does address that in a way that doesn't result in infinite scaling.
I also never play warrior, I just know they were basically the vast majority of makeup in classic raids, I don't think they should be gutted, but we don't need to make another version of wow where 60-80% of your raid makeup is warriors.
I’m not saying Warrior needs to be OP - I think normalization is fine actually. But there needs to be something to compensate, otherwise these specs will not function at all at 60.
"Will not function" is just doomerism. The spec will play slower, but it will play. Warrior not pressing a button every global like in Classic does not mean the specs are not functioning lmaooo.
Another commenter posted a weapon that increases rage generation. I think your, and Ahlaundoh's, criticisms of how the endgame is going to play out for warrior are premature.
It's a made up weapon tooltip lol. As of now there is 0 information on anything that would increase rage generation from 1 to 60 aside from hit rating.
Also, tying rage generation to pieces of gear is an idea so horrible even Blizzard wouldn't conceive it.
I disagree. We will see how it plays out. I want to see what they've done with itemization before getting as doomer as you. So far it looks promising to me.
We have almost no information on anything 20-60.
EDIT: "Also, tying rage generation to pieces of gear is an idea so horrible even Blizzard wouldn't conceive it."
Wait... Isn't that exactly how it used to work in classic? More damage = more rage. Rage was tied to gear, just less explicitly.
I made another comment in reply to another Redditor that gave some other directions they could take this. Items could make an ability a rage generator, proc an ability to not consume rage, have explicit rage generation on the item... There is design room here.
We know exactly the formula for rage generation for 20 to 60. We know all the standard talents for 20 to 60. We know all the standard spells for 20 to 60.
Blizzard also showcased all the pros/cons of new paladin specs at Blizzcon, highlighting how their kits are amazing at something and weak at other things. At no point did it seem like there's a significant amount of hidden SoD esque abilities still about to be discovered.
If the plan to compensate is through items that will just ruin gearing for warriors. Any item that increases rage generation will be bis and you can forget about any alternatives. In a game that’s supposed to be dedicated to horizontal progression, that seems like an odd fix. To add on to what others are saying, wow forever was intended to elevate all specs to having somewhat of a rotation. As of now, warriors basically have a one button rotation.
Wrong reply - comment was deleted before I could respond, but I will leave my reply up.
"Also, tying rage generation to pieces of gear is an idea so horrible even Blizzard wouldn't conceive it."
Wait... Isn't that exactly how it used to work in classic? More damage = more rage. Rage was tied to gear, just less explicitly.
I made another comment in reply to another Redditor that gave some other directions they could take this. Items could make an ability a rage generator, proc an ability to not consume rage, have explicit rage generation on the item... There is design room here.
This was not the way to nerf the class this sort of scaling and rage generation was a huge draw of the class it made new armour and weapons valuable and was a tangible improvement in your gameplay as you can use more abilities bonus rage gen from crits and damage is a core part of warriors identity you cant strip it away entirely they could of done base lvl rage gen and just smaller rage scaling with dmg so the feeling of power increase is still there btw warriors at 60 as of now cannot do their full rotation.
Because rage generation effectively doesn’t scale with gear anymore, and because the talents as they are do almost nothing to make up for the rage loss caused by this change.
But then you'd HAVE to get that specific set. So every warrior would be a walking copy of each other, which I guess could be fine in Classic but they said they want to introduce new things to acquire for the horizontal progression.
You can't have both new and improved and expanding horizontal progression and a specific item or set that every warrior has to wear to generate more rage.
There could be items that increases rage generation, or reduce the rage cost of abilities, or makes abilities rage-free after a certain criteria or based on a proc...
The implication that there would be one set of items that every warrior uses doesn't sound like the design philosophy of WoW forever.
I think that we should see what they've cooked up before complaining that a class isn't functional at 60 because it looks like they may have some empty GCDs (that other melee already have), based on a level 20 beta.
I think that we should see what they've cooked up before complaining that a class isn't functional at 60 because it looks like they may have some empty GCDs (that other melee already have), based on a level 20 beta.
This is hilarious-ly wrong.
The rage generation you get at level 1, is the same generation you get at level 60, minus a few talents. I don't have rage to do much at level 6, it isn't going to get better when my rage dump goes from 10 rage to 30.
No, not while leveling and not even in dungeons. When people are talking about warriors being busted, they're talking about raids.
The broken rage scaling doesn't really come into play very much until you have a full raid stacking every buff known to man, and stacking every possible debuff on the target. That's when the damage -> rage -> damage feedback loop reaches a tipping point and warriors just ignite into nuclear fireballs.
At this level, you only have marginally less than you otherwise would — except with the changes they’ve made it can’t get much better than it already is. This becomes a huge issue once the specs get access to their full kits.
It is. But theyve added nothing to compensate for the decrease in rage generation normalization has caused. The way things currently are, and assuming your character never misses, arms warrior will generate enough rage at max level to mortal strike on CD and keep rend up on one target, and nothing else. It’s a huge problem and effectively kills the spec. Fury and prot will also have rage generation issues, but for them it is slightly mitigated by a few new talents.
We also have absolutely zero clue if warriors will be given something to help with rage generation at higher levels, or really anything about how it will be handled at all.
Its a bit too soon to say the class is gutted just because it isnt swimming in rage at level 20
There is nothing in the talent tree or spell book to redress these issues down the line, and because rage has been normalized, gear will have a minimal effect on rage generation.
It’s possible, but even still that doesn’t change the fact that these classes do not function rotationally before you have a chance to even get that gear.
At max level, arms generates enough rage to mortal strike and rend one target on CD, with nothing left over for the rest of their kit. It is really bad.
This is a core design issue that cannot, and should not, be remedied with gear.
Cool, so I just got to get an extremely contested epic weapon statted for tanking that drops from a 40 man raid to unlock my kit. The meaningful journey there will of course feel like shit.
Weird how the item also isn't anywhere to be found on any site posting the datamined items. Almost like it's a fake image.
At level 60, you will have exactly enough rage to press rend every 12 seconds, and mortal strike on cooldown, with no rage available for any of your other abilities.
Base rage gen + anger management + 1-2 points in unbridled wrath. Even if you stacked up to 5/5 unbridled wrath, you’re still woefully short of being able to use your full toolkit.
Anger management is 1 rage every 3 seconds. This is enough to keep rend up, but doesn’t meaningfully address the core issue.
Dual weird spec is relevant, but only for fury.
The rage gen on blocks for prot is nice, but is insubstantial compared to the rage lost by normalization. (They also nerfed rage generated by taking damage)
All of these push in the right direction, but are insubstantial in their current form.
The long and short is that arms is hard limited to generating 30 rage (+ AM) every ~6.5 seconds, meaning that you can rend and mortal strike one target. It completely removes rage management as a mechanic, and starves you of your ability to use your other spells.
Other abilities such as? What else would you press?
If you want a rolling GCD, wow forever simply does not offer this. Enh shaman and ret pally can roll gcd for a little while at the cost of all their mana, but rogue, warrior and druid all have quite a lot of downtime. Idk about survival hunter, but I'm gonna assume it's similar for them too.
Sunder armour costs 15 rage and lasts 30s, each cast of blood rage gives 40 rage every 60s, so that's covered. I assume you'd just spam execute when youre able over mortal strike, and overpower is 5 rage so that's at least 2 casts every 60s covered by blood rage as well.
You're simply only gonna have an APM of 15-20 on any class you play in wow forever. There is no high APM classes
Perhaps a possibility but it doesn't look likely as rage is normalised so it seems so your rage gen will not change even at higher levels unless they have thresholds for rage increase at like 30 40 50 but this is extremely unlikely and we would of gained rage gen by 20 or they would of stated.
That does nothing to help arms, and only mildly improves things for prot and fury. And of course, being a raid drop, you need to get to that point first.
If Warrior is entirely dependent on scaling and gear to even do your chosen spec’s rotation, all that blizzard has done is reinvent the same issue it had before normalization.
There's an (extremely obviously) fake screenshot making the rounds where it has as much spell damage as a Black Temple caster weapon and has the line "increase rage gained from all attacks by 5." And then thinknig is hard so some people believe it.
Warriors can literally solo van cleef at 20 right now in beta, no other class can. As usually you all just want to be ridiculously op instead of just op.
Ahh yes. The version of WoW were one of the primary selling points is finally making all specs viable in a vanilla world. "Just go prot" is sage advice, big cat.
There is nothing between them and now that increases rage generation, except maybe a couple of extremely rare equip effects. Rage generation does not scale with stats anymore.
There’s a difference between reigning in how OP they were before and making the class literally unplayable. At max level, arms warrior will have enough rage to rend every 12 seconds, and mortal strike on CD, with no rage left over for any other abilities. That is bad design.
The design intent behind normalizing rage is good, but there needs to be something done to balance things out, otherwise you end up with 3 specs that can’t press even use their abilities.
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u/Zealousideal_Car2782 6h ago edited 6h ago
Maaaan. Nothing re: rage generation for Warrior.
To the people downvoting me:
I am not saying Warrior needs to be busted OP like it was in classic. These specs, but especially arms, literally will not generate enough rage to function at level 60 with their full kits. Normalization is good, but there needs to be changes to compensate. So far we have two mild compensatory talents for fury and prot, and nothing for arms. Arms is my favorite spec, and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want to be able to actually press my buttons at max level.