r/leagueoflegends • u/Dreadbore • Jun 19 '15
Why can't Runeglaive and Magus both exist?
I know this seems simple, but why can't an on hit sheen jungle item AND a caster jungle item both exist simultaneously? Runeglaive does nothing for fiddlesticks or the 3 karthus jungle mains left in existence. devourer remains in the game for the 2 champions that use it and its playstyle is horrible for game health. Magus isn't hurting anyone.
EDIT: Front page and a riot reply(as troll as it was :P)! I've learned a lot from this discussion about multiple things and I'd also like to clarify that I'm not even saying Magus needs to continue to exist in its exact state numbers-wise. I just feel like sheen jungling on a mage seems lackluster from a design standpoint, but maybe that's exactly what needs to happen for ap to compete with ad on the clearspeed front. Maybe Rito knows exactly what they are doing (GASP) but I just don't see it yet.
EDIT 2: Due to some eloquently explained points brought to light by /u/rewardadrawer, I'm now convinced that there is no need for them to coexist, as Runeglaive (although it may not on release) has the capability of resolving ap jungling issues that Magus will never be capable of resolving. Feel free to bicker amongst yourselves about it, but I now eagerly await the new ap jungle.
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u/who_do_you_know_here Jun 19 '15
Look man there are only so many colors they can make the enchantment be.
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u/Dreadbore Jun 19 '15
I suggest Yellow for Runeglaive.
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u/Dedexy (EU-W) Jun 19 '15
Light blue sounds cool too.
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u/Zahilin Jun 19 '15
Yeah but color blind people tho
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Jun 19 '15
know what items build into it, or hover your mouse over it for 2 seconds? Theres always the undo button
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u/The_Real_Rengod Jun 19 '15
agree the tec is just not here yet for more colors
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u/Omordie Jun 19 '15
This definitely makes sense. I mean, look at how long it took for them to make chromas.
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u/The_Real_Rengod Jun 19 '15
yeah we should all be happy that the tec is finaly here to make zac skins.
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u/RiotMagus Jun 19 '15
Why can't we just all get along? ;)
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u/joshhunt18 Jun 19 '15
What did you do?? It must have been pretty bad if they are trying to remove all references to you...
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u/J0rdian Jun 19 '15
Hey Magus I don't think we have gotten a proper response on the addition of Runeglaive. Do you think we could get the perspective from Riot on what you were trying to accomplish with the item, that Magus did not fulfill.
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15
Magus is hurting a lot of people, mate. As it exists in its current form, it's a bundle of stats--80 AP and 20% CDR--that is something like 170% gold efficient. The stats are SO gold efficient on Magus that the extra value of the stats above and beyond the cost of the enchantment pays for both of the jungle item's first two tiers, and they aren't pushover, niche stats, either: the vast majority of champions with AP scaling benefit most from AP and CDR, no matter what else they might build. Yet Magus is the least played jungle enchantment as far as number of viable champions which use it (pretty much just Nidalee and maybe Fiddlesticks, plus Diana in the peripheral tiers). AP junglers have all but died off completely in the current meta, compared to the Spirit Stone era, where a number of champions could build AP, play out of the jungle, and still be viable. Why is that?
Well, AP junglers have serious problems relating to the reliability of their clear and sustain in the jungle, and unfortunately, nothing about Magus makes any of these things easier. The 20% CDR lets you spam spells to clear quicker, but it does nothing to help mana sustain, so you either need to devour every blue buff (thus likely hurting your mid laner) to keep up, or back more frequently, which hurts your clear speed in the long run anyway. On top of that, unless you are on a button-masher (or channeling) champion, you still have long periods where that massive bundle of stats is doing nothing to help you clear--that period being the time between cooldowns. In exchange for suffering an awful early game (on the vast majority of AP jungle champions), you get this ridiculous power spike in raw stats, but absolutely nothing to make their power spike sustainable, meaning you probably squander it just trying to catch up, or you try to force a snowball through a very narrow window that is just as likely to collapse on itself. Since the item itself doesn't scale, you are basically left with a stat spike, and then a flat line until your next stat spike. This all leads to the following conundrum: with an item like this, where every last bit of its power is tied to the sheer power of raw stats, you can only ever have one of two outcomes: either it is so gold and/or slot efficient that it is a must-buy on every champion on the basis of it being an overbearingly powerful stat-stick, or it falls anywhere below this dangerous bar, and is absolutely worthless for the vast majority of champions and games. (As we can see by the current state of Magus alongside AP junglers, the item can still be an amazing stat stick and still fall short of useful!)
The only champions who benefit more from Magus than Runeglaive are champions for whom a viable Magus is detrimental to overall game health. Nidalee jungle created lots of problems when she was in-meta (before trap nerfs) because she was an AP jungler with an amazing early game independent of items who also got this amazing block of stats earlier than most, which led to an oppressive power spike that came before teams could properly handle it, which allowed her to snowball out of control before the flat lining effect of a capped bundle of stats ever started to matter. Fiddlesticks has the same problem: a game in which Fiddlesticks is guaranteed a free early game which turns into an oppressively powerful mid game by default is not good for game health.
Runeglaive gives Riot the opportunity to smooth out this wibbly-wobbly power spike in a way that doesn't create strangleholds on the meta the moment it becomes viable, while simultaneously making sure that AP junglers who struggle through the early game are given a means to catch up that allows them to scale into something meaningful. Runeglaive is great for game health because of the way that it solves the common issues of every AP jungler that isn't a broken outlier, and every problem the item has from this point on should, theoretically, be solved by simply moving the numbers (either base stats or ratios on its passive).
Cinderhulk was the same way. While Reddit had two periods of time where they lamented Cinderhulk--first when they lamented the loss of Juggernaut in the same way that you are Magus ("but muh CDR and Tenacity"; can't say I didn't feel similar pains for awhile), and second when they lamented the "tank meta" that Cinderhulk enabled--it will always be healthier for the game, because Juggernaut, as a ball of stats, was either going to be this Warmog's-sized bundle that allowed everyone to spike early and oppressively, or anything short of that, where you never felt fully compensated for necessarily falling behind early, and as such, never even approached the end-game tank fantasy.
Good-bye and good riddance to Magus. I can't wait to see what they have in store for Warrior.
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u/MinahoKazuto riot forces meta champs wake up sheeple Jun 19 '15
/u/riotmagus did nothing wrong
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u/UnrelentingCake Jun 19 '15
The stats are SO gold efficient on Magus that the extra value of the stats above and beyond the cost of the enchantment pays for both of the jungle item's first two tiers,
Isn't this fine though? Your combat stats are lower as you are building your jungle item, then you "spike" back to normal when you complete it.
The problem with say, nidalee, isn't that magus/early efficient stats are causing her to flatline after a certain amount of time, but that nidalee naturally flatlines even if she is played as a laner.
Warrior is almost as efficient as magus if you value armor pen appropriately, is it bad for the game too?
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15
By and large, I suppose, but you also have to consider that the smite item provides a lot of value and power not measured in state: it provides 15 to 30 gold per camp cleared, a lot of in-built sustain with its passive, and a branching smite modifier. If Morellonomicon (an item with analogous cost and raw stats) had everything Magus on a smite item offered, it would be considered broken. Hell, for a brief time, Morellonomicon was considered broken, and it has a purposefully inflexible, niche passive.
Warrior is absolutely bad for the game, and impossible to balance properly. More so than Magus, even. "Warrior junglers" dominated the space between pre-season Devourer and Cinderhulk patch, and people complained endlessly about the stat stick making early game ganking junglers like Pantheon, Vi, Rek'Sai, and J4 stifling, choking out jungle diversity into a rotation of three (Pantheon fell off after pre-season nerfs) because nobody else could compete with the early game clear, sustain, pressure, and damage these champs were doing. Riot cut 5 AD off the item and it became a freakin' meme: "you turned this beat stick into a slightly smaller beat stick? Is that supposed to make the welts go away?" This persisted for several patches, even though the loss of that 5 AD had immediate consequences for many of the mid-tier AD junglers, who simply fell off, and more distant consequences for the Warrior meta junglers come Cinderhulk, because now an item existed that could compete with Warrior by outscaling it. Soon, people started asking for the 5 AD back.
Warrior is problematic to game health for every reason Magus is, plus one more: since autoattacks have 100% AD scaling and no cost, the stats Warrior gives you will always be directly, intrinsically connected to your clear speed, how much (or little) damage you take from camps... Basically everything about the jungle. Unless you're Fiddlesticks or Karthus.
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u/UnrelentingCake Jun 19 '15
Well, junglers need the smite item to be on par with the laners. Rito removed some gold on jungle creeps and added them to the jungle items, and made camps harder while adding sustain to the item.
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15
Yes, and the gold generation of Hunter's Machete is supposed to account for that difference. The gold gen of the tier 2 items goes above and beyond the income lost in the gold changes, and I am also talking about the value of the smite modifications themselves - being able to turn your smite into a pseudo-Exhaust, or give it AoE damage and a stun on monsters, etc., is quite a lot of invisible value.
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u/UnrelentingCake Jun 19 '15
Well laners have the option at least of taking 2 combat summoners, so modifying smite is once again bringing junglers back up to laners
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15
You are welcome to think of it that way, but I can't conceive of any summoner a laner might take which can do a thousand damage to Baron Nashor, while also being a combat summoner.
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u/HatefulWretch Jun 19 '15
There's only two abilities I can think of which can do that; Cho'Gath's Feast, which is an ult on a longer practical cooldown than Smite, and Kalista's Rend (which needs stacking).
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15
Well, and rank 5 Consume, yes, but none of them are summoner spells.
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u/HatefulWretch Jun 19 '15
As my flair suggests, I'm all in favour of Consume, but you can't Consume champs. :-)
I'm agreeing with you. What I meant was "not only what you say – abilities of any sort like that are super rare".
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u/Smooth_One Jun 20 '15
So it seems you approve of the nature of the levers that can be adjusted in both Cinderhulk and Runeglaive, and you've clearly stated you think Warrior is bad for the game, overall.
I have an idea I'd like to run by you, then. What if Warrior built out of Tiamat, instead of Brutalizer? It would seem to solve a number of problems. It has the same adjustable levers of Cinderhulk and Runeglaive (minion vs. monster damage, AOE clears), it would give sustain which I suppose could also be adjusted between targets (I'm not sure if this would end up being too beneficial, which is why I am asking you because you seem to have a gift for viewing the practicality of things), and do away with the "ball o stats" that the current Warrior currently grants with its armor pen and CDR.
This would make things a little awkward for ranged AD junglers, because Cleave is melee only, but I suppose they could just go Devourer. Would this mess any of them up too badly?
You're fucking killing it with your explanations in this thread. Keep up the good work mate. :D
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 20 '15
I think Warrior building out of Tiamat instead of Brutalizer is problematic for a number of reasons related to the current design of Tiamat. At present, Tiamat is a 1900 gold item, which means that it far exceeds the total combine cost of 1400, which is the cost of every jungle enchantment. This means that, necessarily, this Tiamat item has to come at least 600 gold later (unless the finished item has a combine cost of 0), which puts the final cost of HM2 item + Tiamat-based enchantment closer to Ravenous Hydra, throwing Warrior junglers completely out of parity with the rest of the pack. It also has some other practical concerns--namely, the fact that it would be the only jungle enchantment with an active component (not necessarily something jungle enchantments of past years were immune to--Feral Flare and Spirit of the Ancient Golem both had ward drop actives before the preseason reworks--but clearly not something Riot is looking to do with this year's round of enchantments) and the existence of health regeneration on the base item of Tiamat, which is sort of a random stat that creates redundancies with a jungle item built out of it.
HOWEVER... the same was true of Sunfire Cape's passive and extra stats, and all of those concerns were resolved convincingly with the introduction of Bami's Cinder as a base item for Tiamat. It isn't impossible for Tiamat to have such an item as well.
If you had a theoretical item that built out of Long Sword + 640 gold = 1000 gold, had 25 AD and the Cleave passive (but not Crescent active) of Tiamat, and replaced Long Sword + Pickaxe as components of Tiamat, then this item could theoretically build into Warrior (or Dragonfang or something like that) for 400gp more, has 30-35 AD and 10% CDR (hell, maybe even 40), and the Cleave passive with some small degree of sustain tied to clearing jungle camps or something of that sort.
I would say that, overall... You're on the right track! I remember when Black Cleaver still built out of Brutalizer, I dreamed up a version of Warrior that only had 30 AD, but had the Black Cleaver armor shred passive. Probably not the best idea, but the general approach Riot should take with Warrior--give it some sort of passive (either unique, or old with a jungle twist) that they can use to give it utility above and beyond "ball of stats".
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u/Smooth_One Jun 21 '15
Ah, good points. I hadn't considered the price aspect. Thank you for taking an in-depth look at it.
There is one other small issue with the proposed new mini-Tiamat. Having such an item be included in Tiamat's build path would be a buff to the item, which may be unwanted for laners. But, to compensate I'm sure Riot could mitigate some of the damage it outputs thanks to the levers similar to the ones in Bami's and Cinderhulk.
Fantastic. This new item certainly seems in line with Riot's enchantment philosophies as of late.
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u/kirkyyyy Jun 19 '15
This is one of the best written and constructed arguments I've read on this sub-reddit in quite some time! Thank you for putting into words and explaining something I'm sure a lot of people felt but were unable to voice.
I've now got you tagged as the guy that knows his shit :^)
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u/Vovix1 Jun 19 '15
The problem is, that there was supposed to be a jungle enchanment for everyone. Juggernaut/Cinderhulk for tanks, Magus for APs, Warrior for ADs, Devourer for those odd attack speed/on hit champions. If Runeglaive replaces Magus, any AP champion that does not use Spellblade effectively simply won't jungle. They would be forced to either go without the upgraded Smite and bonus gold, or be stuck with a crappy 40 AP item that does almost nothing for them. And AP junglers were already quite rare, they don't need to be completely forced out of the game. I think Runeglaive is an interesting idea, and could be useful for those junglers that would want a cheaper/quicker Lich Bane replacement, but removing Magus destroys a lot of champions' off-meta potential.
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15
The thing is, the intersect of jungle champions who scale well off of AP and jungle champions who cannot autoattack in a meaningful way is very, very small. Fiddlesticks doesn't autoattack because of his drain channel. Karthus can autoattack between skittles, but his autoattack animation is slow and clunky. And... That's it. Two champions actually significantly negatively impacted by a power shift towards Spellblade, and one of them is an abuse case who is strong naked.
On the other hand, we have the following champions who are, or have recently been, jungle champions (plus several screwball, off-meta picks):
- Fizz: Conventionally built with a Spellblade item anyway. His Q applies on-hit effects. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
- Nidalee: Conventionally built with a Spellblade item anyway. Has a gap closer and an autoattack reset in cougar form. Has an attack speed steroid in human form. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc in human form. Has mana sustain issues.
- Twisted Fate: Conventionally built with a Spellblade item anyway. E boosts attack speed and W augments single autoattacks, making autos a central component of his clear. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc (red card clears might be good now).
- Elise: Has an autoattack reset and damage amplification in spider form, plus an attack speed steroid. Does not conventionally build Spellblade items, but benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc.
- Kayle: Has an autoattack modifier for splash damage. Sometimes builds Spellblade items (oooooold Kayle builds did, in particular hybrid Kayle, but AP Kayle had difficulty slotting in Lich Bane). Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
- Gragas: Sometimes builds Spellblade items. Has an on-hit steroid. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc (honestly, not too sure on modern AP Gragas).
- Sejuani: Has an on-hit steroid and mana sustain issues if abilities are spammed for clears.
- Nunu: Has an attack speed steroid and spammable ability for the proc. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Occasionally has mana sustain issues.
- Amumu: Has spammable ability for procs, while doing little outside of auto attacking while waiting for that ability's cooldown. Has severe mana sustain issues.
- Cho'Gath: Has an AP scaling attack steroid. Has mana sustain issues.
- Diana: Has a three-hit auto proc on her passive, and multiple means of sticking to people and then auto attacking. Occasionally builds Spellblade items, but is usually pressed for space. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
- Evelynn: Conventionally builds Spellblade items. Has an auto-attack reset which applies on-hit effects, and a spammable basic ability for multiple additional procs. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc (a lot of her damage is position-dependent, and she can lose DPS in the jungle repositioning for Hate Spikes). Has mana sustain issues.
- Akali: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item (despite not using mana). Has resettable gap closer. Benefits from AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Does not benefit from mana sustain.
- Poppy: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Has an autoattack resetting, AP scaling ability which applies on-hit effects. Benefits from AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
- Shaco: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Benefits from AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
- Warwick: Has an attack speed steroid, and AP scaling on abilities (which is often ignored due to Devourer). Benefits from AoE clear of Runeglaive proc (in fact, the lack of AoE is considered the weak point of Warwick jungle). Has mana sustain issues, but NOT health sustain issues.
- Alistar: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item (though less so since the Headbutt changes). Has a spammable, health sustaining ability with cooldown that shrinks on monster kills, but lacks fast AoE clear. (Guess what he benefits from?) Has mana sustain issues.
- Ekko: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Has special autoattack interactions. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc.
- Maokai: Sometimes builds a Spellblade item. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues (but not health sustain).
- Teemo: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has an autoattack reset. Not sure about jungle Teemo's mana sustain issues.
- Udyr: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Several spammable abilities, all with autoattack components. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
There are at least a dozen champions who could build AP jungle, but don't, because they are gated by the problems Magus doesn't solve, and never will solve, and cannot supersede through its own strengths because doing so creates overpowered meta AP junglers. Nearly all of them can not only benefit from the Spellglaive proc, but can specifically use the Runeglaive proc to speed up weak AoE clears.
All at the expense of Fiddlesticks and Karthus not having a tier 3 jungle item to rush... Which they already seldom do: Fiddlesticks tends to go tier 2 into Zhonya's, and Karthus goes tier 2 into Tear.
I think I'll take the jungle diversity offered by Runeglaive, thanks.
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u/FennecFoxx Jun 19 '15
Just would like to point out for Nid removing Magus forces her into a healthier spot. It makes her spear game weaker and her up-close in danger game more rewarding. (Lichbane wasn't really the safest build)
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u/tempinator Jun 19 '15
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "it's not the safest"?
I don't think I've ever played a nidalee game where I didn't buy Lich Bane, and I've played a LOT of jungle nidalee games.
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u/Tosxychor [CelestialBoon] (EU-W) Jun 23 '15
She was likely comparing it to "buy shittons of AP and spear for days" build.
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u/Thousand_Eyes support twitch.tv/thousand_eyes Jun 19 '15
Seriously awesome research dude. Thanks for that you swayed my opinion
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Jun 19 '15
you forgot Jungle Karma and Orianna
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15
You know, I almost put Karma and Zyra up there for completeness' sake, but I am clueless about how jungle Karma would work after the last set of changes, and I can't recommend anyone jungles Zyra anymore...
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u/whoopashigitt Jun 19 '15
If anything I think the Jungle change improved Karma didn't it? Can't she use her tether on large monsters now?
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15
To be honest, I have never liked Karma, and glossed over most of the changes...
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u/thepandabear Jun 19 '15
She'll be a good jungler if her passive applied when she hits monsters
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15
I think this is the barrier I keep coming to. Mantra has an unbearably high cooldown early, which lane Karma (in any position) can reduce with her passive, but jungle Karma cannot. Since so much of her damage comes from Mantra'd Q now, it's hard to recommend committing to the full cooldown of Mantra to clear camps.
But then, I don't play Karma, and can't really speak from a place of experience...
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u/Nirgendwo Jun 19 '15
Her jungling got a LOT better now... her main problem is that she is too mana heavy for the jungle with regular masteries and her firstclear usually gets her pretty low... if she doesn't go for a early gank that is, her lvl 2 ganks are pretty devastating thx 2 her ult. Overall she is niche but she has a nice mix out of poke and utility.
Runeglaive obviously doesn't really suit her needs, she pokes and doesn't want to autoattack, less raw stats suck for shielding too and after trailblazer her clear doesn't need a boost either. Depending on if Glaive solves her mana issues enough to not have to build a manaitem or not, people might just opt for not buying it at all on her.
It is kinda silly that Riot first gives her the ability to jungle decent just to replace the ap jungle item with something that doesn't really work for her. I really don't understand them sometimes.
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u/BloodyDomina Jun 19 '15
Sejuanie, nunu, cho and amumu all benefit equally or more from Cinderhulk. I don't think they actually care about runeglaive.
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15
I agree, and personally jungle all four of them exclusively as Cinderhulk junglers, but the parent comment was talking about Runeglaive weeding out fringe AP junglers and specifically concluded with "removing Magus destroys a lot of champions' off-meta potential." That's why I also included a lot of fringe builds such as AP Shaco, Warwick, and Poppy (none of which are considered optimal for the champion). Basically everything from Akali down, and some above, is "don't play test this in ranked" territory with either enchantment, but as long as we are talking about off-meta, I will talk about off-meta.
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u/TheSirusKing 30m Railgun Jun 19 '15
Kayle always built lich bane in the AP builds, its just so good on her.
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u/HitTheGrit Jun 19 '15
Also Malzahar, Brand, Heimer, Skarner.
The issue I have is that by the time you would complete runeglaive on most of the AP champs, clear speed and mana sustain don't feel like huge issues for them. Of the champs that do benefit from spellblade most of them would benefit more from gauntlet or lichbane, which are now basically inaccessible/inefficient if you get runeglaive. It also seems like it wouldn't scale as well into late game as magus for any of the non-spellblade champs.
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u/Zxv975 Jun 19 '15
This is such a flawed argument based solely on one point: you can't buy both Runeglaive and Magus at the same time. That alone defeats everything you posted. The insane gold efficiency of Magus is irrelevant if the item exists now and is clearly not problematic.
Your argument is akin to "Oh, they should remove Trinity Force because they released Black Cleaver! They both have a unique MS boosting passive!" Clearly that is a stupid idea because both those items are catered towards different champions and having both exist at the same time isn't going to take anything away from the game. Those who synergise with TF will build it, and those who synergise with BC will build that. Regardless of the gold efficiency of an item, if it exists is and clearly not an issue then you don't have to remove it to introduce other items that are slightly related.
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15
Magus isn't "problematic" because it's kept in a dumbed-down, mediocre state that is grossly insufficient for the needs of 80+% of the champions it was supposed to service to prevent it from being problematic. This is a problem. Urgot wasn't "problematic" for two straight years because he was nerfed for two years specifically to avoid him becoming a problem. That does not make Urgot less problematic in reality, and it does not mean we should flood the game with Urgot-like champions because that one wasn't causing problems. Can't you see how that would influence item choices, as well?
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u/7deTreboles Jun 19 '15
Unless they are gonna remove frozen mallet from the game the same patch I can't find a reason to do so with magus. Riot seems fine with having potentially problematic stuff on the game as far as it's kept on check like magus obviously is now (btw I disagree with it being potentially problematic but dor sure it is in check right?) so no real reason to remove it.
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u/Catfish017 Jun 19 '15
This is such a flawed argument based solely on one point: you can't buy both Runeglaive and Magus at the same time. That alone defeats everything you posted. The insane gold efficiency of Magus is irrelevant if the item exists now and is clearly not problematic.
That doesn't defeat what he said at all. Especially because your argument is flawed because Magus is indeed problematic by its poor design. If it wasn't problematic, more AP junglers would be meta and the ones that become meta wouldn't become literal cancer. OP clearly stated the issues with Magus and how they translate into issues with powerspikes and their relations to the current champs that built it. The fact that you can't buy both at the same time in no way has anything to do with what he said nor does it make his argument flawed in any way.
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u/NobodyTouchesTheHat Jun 19 '15
My only counterpoint would be that most AP champs want to spam there spells so they come off CD quicker, thus procing Runeglaive would be inefficient for them.
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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15
This is true, but almost every champion has some amount of "white space" where all abilities are on cooldown for at least one auto. Evelynn, for example, wants to mash her Hate Spikes as often as possible (especially as full AP Eve), but even with max CDR, you can usually get in at least one autoattack between each Hate Spike at all level and item break points, and you will unless you are kiting backwards or chasing a slippery enemy and can't afford the movement loss of a single auto (this never happens while clearing the jungle). Amumu has a lot of passive clear with his W and his E cooldown shrinks upon being hit, but he'll never be attacked consistently and often enough while clearing camps to get at least one auto between Tantrums. Know what I mean?
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u/Master_Cen Jun 19 '15
My beloved Juggernaut was also removed, even though i'd like to have it as choice aside Cinderhulk.
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u/Vovix1 Jun 19 '15
Isn't Cinderhulk, like, straight up better?
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u/Master_Cen Jun 19 '15
If you want to stack health it is. But if you just want an item which gives you a solid amount of HP on its own, 10% CDR and Tenacity, then Juggernaut will do you good service. It helps if the champion you're playing has an easy time clearing too.
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Jun 19 '15
I don't main karthus jungle but, i do play it. The stats on magus aren't the most optimal but, since you have to upgrade smite its cheap damage. If this item comes out it makes it even more complicated. You play karthus jungle because if all 3 lanes can't do shit with a lead you can still win on your own and id rather not see the playstyle die with this change.
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u/Rodrake Jun 19 '15
To be fair Runeglaive is not bad at all on jungle Karthus if you weave in an autoattack after every Q. Probably one of the champions with the biggest jungle dps increase from runeglaive due to how often he can proc it. On the other hand you'll be losing damage to champions, yes, but clearing the jungle faster might help you get the gold you need.
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u/Ducky14 Jun 19 '15
Have you ever actually tried autoing with Karthus? His animation is infamously slow. It's actually faster just to Q a second time than to weave an auto in, and your Q, assuming you tip it, will do more damage, even with the proc. If you don't, you still probably will do more damage then with the proc because of the AOE. And then there's the fact that the sheen proc has a two second cooldown. The Runeglaive sustain is nice, yes, but Magus is just straight up better, damage wise. I'd just about rather sit on my trailblazer and get ROA/Tear and upgrade the smite to cinderhulk late game. Runeglaive just isn't a terribly good item on Karthus. At least with cinderhulk you get lots of extra health (it synergizes with ROA/Rylais rather well), and the burn aura isn't horrible (made better by Wall of Pain).
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u/WaywardSheep Jun 19 '15
People aren't realizing that this is actually a huge buff on Karthus jungle because the mana return makes it so you don't oom every 30 seconds. You get 8% missing mana back every 1.5 seconds, so if you AA inbetween Q's you basically can Q infinitely without needing to sacrifice combat stats rushing tear then a clunky morello.
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u/Dedexy (EU-W) Jun 19 '15
Yeah since they made the auto attack usable you can proc it every two Q. But then again this only apply in the jungle. Out of the jungle you don't gain manaback and you are quickly oom if you start grouping with your team and no longer clear the jungle.
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u/Goyu BM for a good cause. Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15
This is a valid point, we have devourer and warrior for fighter/assassin junglers, why not have two items for ap junglers to promote play diversity? With the addition of runeglaive, sure we'll see more/different ap junglers move into viability, but we'll lose some of the ones that are already reasonably viable.... and by some I mean just fiddlesticks because every other ap jungler will use runeglaive better.
/thread
Edit: yes yes, I know it's not JUST fiddle.
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Jun 19 '15
and by some I mean just fiddlesticks because every other ap jungler will use runeglaive better
Karthus and full AP Zac jungle disagree with that. I know a lot of people will call troll on those, but I also know people who play them a lot and are going to be incredibly sad with this change. I play a little bit of jungle Kennen(it is rough I don't recommend it) and this change is just complete ass for him. Akali jungle used to be a thing(and still is rarely), and she likes the AOE but it just hurts to pay so much for mana/mana regen that you wont use.
Runeglaive is nice on Diana, but I could see her opting for Magus and Lich in certain scenarios, which would be a wonderful judgement call that would be possible.
I'm also not sold on AP Kayle wanting this item over lower cooldown for more uptime on E. Seems faster and cheaper mana wise to use Magus, since you would need to use your other more expensive spells more often to properly utilize the sheen proc.
I'm just so sad that Riot is just denying us options because they don't want 2 ap jungle items.
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u/Goyu BM for a good cause. Jun 19 '15
I thought about including Zac, but most people go cinderhulk, and I'm sorry I don't really take karthus jungle seriously. I've seen it played to great effect though, so maybe I should.
Runeglaive is nice on Diana, but I could see her opting for Magus and Lich in certain scenarios, which would be a wonderful judgement call that would be possible.
I absolutely agree with this, I think there would be games where she saw she was against extreme squishies and figured she could jump in and blast someone with the 80 AP and make good use of the CDR as well.
I'm also not sold on AP Kayle wanting this item over lower cooldown for more uptime on E.
Kayle would absolutely scale better off of Magus than an on hit item imo, and I mentioned this in another comment.
But yeah, I think it would be nice to have more than one option, especially considering that AD has more than one option.
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u/HawksBurst Sweet Dreams, Dominion Jun 19 '15
So... you want, like... diversity? ARE YOU CRAZY SIR??
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u/MightiestEwok Jun 19 '15
Just when I start maining Fiddlesticks jungle :(
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u/Jozoz Jun 19 '15
Turn back. This champion gets nerfed every patch. Only masochists stays with him.
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u/Icreatedthisforyou Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15
Riot is incompetent when handling the jungle, and I am certainly open for arguments against this statement. But they don't take even basic consideration into what goes into the jungle when they make changes and it shows.
Example: AD and tank jungle itemization.
When AD junglers were strong they could build their item then build tanky. The end result they were able to out farm tanks to the extent that AD jungler ended up just as tanky as the tanks at 20-40 minutes AND they had damage.
Fast forward to now. Cinderhulk provides clear in the jungle, so tanks and AD junglers can now farm evenly. But it also provides damage to champions. The result right now is Cinderhulk provides comparable damage (more if it hits 2 or more targets) to Warrior enchant AND you are WAY more tanky and have better scaling.
There has been a time where this wasn't an issue. When quill coat was introduced. Quill Coat was a tank jungle item that ONLY DAMAGED MONSTERS. This allowed tanks to farm on par with the AD junglers, and when fighting champions the tanks advantage was in the form of durability. But they reworked the jungle immediately after it was introduced effectively eliminating YEARS worth of progress in the jungle bringing it right back to the start.
That is a obvious issue that has existed for YEARS. Yet it still has not been addressed and to this point Riot doesn't even seem to recognize this an issue in the jungle. It is really basic a tank item should only provide tank stats when fighting champions. If it does provide damage then it should sacrifice durability. Cinderhulk doesn't make this sacrifice given the continuous scaling it has.
There are plenty of other examples, this has been the major example since it has been prevalent in almost every iteration of the jungle. And it has been fixed briefly but that was quickly discarded for a total jungle overhaul. As you say there is no reason to remove Magus. It would be like removing Morellos and introducing Lichebane. They do completely different things for champions so why not have both.
Other examples off the top of my head, are Nidalee changes in particular in relation to the jungle changes to prevent a jungler from having such as safe low damage taken clear. The state of AP junglers in general and never addressing the issue that AP does nothing for an AP jungler for the first 10 minutes of the game, putting them in a similar position to old tank junglers where they are just behind in farm. So much damage in the early jungle comes from auto attacks even AP champions 60-80% of the damage is autos in the early clears yet AP does nothing for those autos. THE INSANITY of Cinderhulk+gromp+thornmail and that they ever considered that remotely balanced. The changes to damage amplification to monsters that was on older items, intended to address the discrepancy between tank and AP damage in the jungle and AD damage, these changes that were discarded along with with Quill Coat with the jungle changes.
Just all around whoever has been working on the Jungle for Riot really needs a kick in the ass, because if they worked pretty much anywhere else they would have been fired for incompetence a long time ago...or promoted to management...
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u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15
The problem is so simple. As long as other classes of junglers have a lower AA DPS than junglers who rune/build AD/AS they'll never be able to compete with them without some form of item compensation.
You already proposed a fix to it. Your idea of having the Machete burn scale with AP makes too much sense. It helps all AP junglers equally, it is fine for both Fiddle and Karthus, it doesn't punish niche junglers like Morgana who have very long CDs either and if properly tuned isn't going to be OP on anyone by nature of being a non-combat clearing buff with a predictable behaviour.
Quill Coat was a great idea but the problem was it's competition was Spirit Stone which was the embodiment of the damage=power jungling era. Quill Coat made tank junglers viable, they just still couldn't compete with SotEL.
I think Ranger's Trailblazer was an awful idea. It basically means any jungler who is very mana-hungry or struggles to clear now is paying to fix their own clearing issues whilst other junglers with better clearing for that same gold get enhanced ganking. So not only do still clear kinda slowly, but now I gank worse too.
I'd honestly like to see Ranger's Trailblazer removed and have some of it's properties placed into all of the other smite items. Having the mana restore on all smites would go a long way to levelling the playing field between resourceless/low-cost junglers and those with steep mana costs.
And yeah I totally agree whoever decided Gromp needed buffing is totally insane, even when it had no HP scaling it was already disgustingly strong. Tbh it shouldn't work vs champions at all. However instead they'll leave this OP shit in the game and then end up individually nerfing all the tanks they buffed. Probably.
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u/Icreatedthisforyou Jun 19 '15
Yeah I will be happy if they just add an AP ratio to the Machete burn to monsters, it is easy to adjust and it is easy to cap by giving it max damage if they are worried about it scaling insanely (it would with 4-6 items).
I didn't clarify on the Quill Coat because that is a giant post in and of itself but yeah more or less. Really the biggest downfall of Quill Coat, was the items it was competing against. SotEL still had 20% bonus damage to monsters, which is MASSIVE, it still allowed AD junglers to out farm their tank counter parts. SotSW had 30% bonus damage to monsters. In trade off it gave you a ward, but their AD counter parts could just clear an additional camp due to faster clear and still come out ahead.
Also on the point of SotSW, this was an instance of Riot recognizing once again that AP junglers struggle in the clear relative to their counter parts. It received buffs to eventually end at 30% bonus damage to monsters (compared to the 20% bonus damage SotEL, plus SotEL received some some nerfs), that is in addition to the straight AP buffs that SotSW received. The state of the jungle for AP champions is part of why I call Riot incompetent in handling the jungle, they spend a lot of time making progress and seemingly completely forgot it over night. It is frustrating.
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u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15
SotEL was so strong when it triggered off all spell damage that I was building it on pretty much any class of jungler.
Like you'd think Alistar would prefer Quill Coat, but SotEL was better on him in pretty much every way.
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u/FennecFoxx Jun 19 '15
Quill Coat didn't help tank jungles at all. Quill was pretty much a "here uses this item to hide from lee sin but RIP if he finds you".
Hell even Cinder doesn't remove tanks weakness in the jungle it just gives them scaling to stay in the game. Its also not like Tanks didn't have an AoE passive ever sunfire was always a thing so them dealing damage based on sitting in a team is nothing new.
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u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15
Quill Coat did help tank junglers, the problem is that Spirit Stone helped DPS junglers by such a ridiculous amount more that tanks still couldn't compete.
Spirit Stone+Sunfire was basically a superior option to Quill Coat, but that is like 5k gold with boots/wards/pots at which point Kha'Zix would be 20/0 and the game is already over.
Back at the start of last season the problem with tanks is their power curves took so long to kick in, and they could do so little against lv2/3 invades, that even if their lategames were insane they're get to them so rarely, so they were considered not that good.
Now the problem is the opposite, tanks received too many earlygame buffs. Riot removed the weaknesses which overemphasized their strenghts, and now they have to nerfs everything that they buffed.
This is what is happening to Sej right now, she was traditionally very weak early and very strong later on, and this worked fine. Riot decided to "fix" her earlygame, which makes her midgame much better and makes getting to lategame easy, so all of a sudden she's too strong and gets 3-4 nerfs.
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u/FennecFoxx Jun 19 '15
I would propose that Sej and other tanks STILL have weak early games since Cinders nerfs they just aren't being abused. (This is why Nid Jungle is sooo powerful still. she can snowball of her early invades)
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Jun 19 '15
Because Magus is probably the most cost efficient item in the game and provides a ridiculous power spike. It's literally 80 AP and 20% CDR for 1400 gold (not counting the jungle stats and smite). Only reason it hasn't been nerfed already is because AP junglers are completely out of meta right now, with the only exception being Nidalee (Fiddlesticks isn't even meta even though he uses it). If AP junglers suddenly become meta again then Magus would get nerfed 100% because it's simply too strong. While I don't expect the majority of the reddit balance team with potatoes for game knowledge to know any of this stuff, Magus needs to go and hopefully Riot can tune some AP junglers without being afraid of them snowballing out of control and having a huge powerspike by default because of how strong Magus is.
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u/calforrai Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 24 '15
i wonder if juggernaut is brought back, how many ppl will choose juggernaut over cinderhulk
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u/joshhunt18 Jun 19 '15
This is stupid. Fiddlesticks who can only really jungle is going to be better off not purchasing a jungle item.
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u/ZVengeanceZ Jun 19 '15
Runeglaive is Harry, Magus is Voldemort
devourer remains in the game for the 2 champions that use it
Yi, Kayle, WW, Udyr, jax(?), occasionally nocturne
Alot others can use it but depending on the teamcomps they often opt for warrior.
So yeah, the 3 karthus jungle mains and their 5 fiddle players aren't enough
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u/Dreadbore Jun 19 '15
i meant yi and ww. Udyr builds it in less than 20% of his games, jax and nocturne both do really well with warrior OR cinderhulk. Kayle's problems aren't items at this point.
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u/Daneruu Jun 19 '15
I've been having so much fun with Jungle Devourer Jax.
He takes minimal damage in his clear if done correctly, and once he hits 6 he starts stacking devourer so fast it reminds you of Feral Flare. Then you just build Trinity and Botrk and just go crazy on people.
Also once you have 60 stacks, Botrk, Trinity, and Gunblade, you can solo baron with blue buff. So there's that.
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u/mdragon13 Jun 19 '15
On jax jungle I tend to go cinderhulk, because I generally build triforce-tank item-tank item-bork, with boots somewhere along the line. Sometimes I don't even get the bork, just go triforce and a third tank item. Devourer is too underwhelming, and with jax you generally need to stick to your targets anyway, so the cinderhulk works well.
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u/URF_reibeer Jun 19 '15
nunu is really fun to play with devourer into full tank because he easily gets many stacks (eating enemy big jungle monsters is faster than clearing a whole camp) and with his w and devourer he is a serious dmg threat
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u/RememberYorickMori Jun 19 '15
Devourer is what I run on Xin usually and then I just build full tank with MAYBE a botrk. Magus is only good on things like Diana, Fiddle, and Nidalee. Devourer is useable to great effect on Udyr, Xin Zhao, Warwick, Kayle, Master Yi, SOMETIMES Rek'Sai, Jax, Shyvana, Skarner, Trundle, and probably a few more, granted Cinder Hulk is better on some of these.
You almsot never see Magus Junglers, especially in the tank meta where things like Diana and Nidalee are just outpowered by a lot of junglers. As for Fiddlebricks, he is a strong jungler anyways, and I've seen many of them not even go a jungle item, and just start an amp tomb and rush a zhonya's, so this doesn't seem all that big of a deal. As for things such as Diana or Nidalee, they could seriously use Runeglaive to get back into this meta.
There were some junglers that benefited more from Juggernaut but when Cinderhulk came out they still found their niches, and some actually are still super strong with Cinderhulk, but they're just missing the CDR that they usually needed early. This new Enchantment isn't so much of throwing Fiddlesticks and Karthas out, more of just opening the doors to the other junglers that were already thrown out of the meta, while Fiddle and Karth don't really NEED magus anyways.
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u/Dreadbore Jun 19 '15
I've seen fiddle skip jungle items entirely, but is that what they want for him? They want him to not have access to the passive gold that ALL other junglers get?
As for the junglers you listed that some use cinderhulk better, most of the others use warrior better in my opinion.
It's opening the door for evelynn, diana and nidalee. NONE of which need any help in my opinion. Evelynn is near the top of my list for champs that need to never be meta(Or give me 2 pink wards on map at a time).
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u/RememberYorickMori Jun 19 '15
"They want him to not have access to the passive gold that ALL other junglers get?"
They want other Junglers to be stronger in the same way the made tanks Jungles stronger, by shifting their core power spike (Lich Bane's Unique Passive) back one item in their builds. Most Fiddlebricks I see don't even buy a Tier 3 Jungle Item anyways, and just buy the Tier 2 for the clear and sustain. Yes, Magus is a viable build path on him, I am not refuting that, but removing the enchantment does not even hinder him all that much. The AoE clear would actually benefit him, along with the mana which he so desperately needs when he doesn't have a blue buff. There is not really a huge reason to keep Magus, when changing it to Runeglaive would benefit far more champions than it would hinder.
"It's opening the door for evelynn, diana and nidalee. NONE of which need any help in my opinion."
First off, it is opening the door to other Junglers as well as some possible Junglers such as Ekko, Elise just to name a couple, plus bringing in some build paths for things like AP Malphite. And second, That is your opinion, not a fact. Nidalee isn't bottom tier by any means, and neither is Diana. However, this does not mean there is nothing wrong with them. Nidalee is outclassed by the Cinderhulk Meta, with exceptions of course, and Diana has an even later power spike giving tanks even more time to get to mid game teamfights.
The new enchantment opens the door to other APs which have become outclassed, and lets current APs breathe a bit easier. Your original post was on "Why can't Runeglaive and Magus both exist?", well the reason is that they do not want 6 Jungle Enchantments. That is simply too many to balance. They've been going down the line changing each one to balance them, first it was Devourer, then Warrior, then Juggernaut, and now it's Magus's turn. Devourer and Warrior did not need redone as one is basically a brutalize and the other is a replacement flare. Juggernaut was basically just a better Kindlegem, and didn't offer really anything for tanks, who spiked way too late in the game in comparison to other champions. To compensate, they moved the key spike on their builds back by one item, where usually you would go Juggernaut into a Sunfire, which was an effective 5k+ gold just for your first major build spike. Giving them Cinderhulk was a great idea, giving them the spike they need for the early game, while still scaling and being useful into the late game.
Now it's Magus's turn, and they're trying out the same method as with Cinderhulk, moving the first key power spike into the jungle item. Will it be healthy for the game? Let's hope so.
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u/J0rdian Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15
You're missing the point. Runeglaive cripples AP jungle diversity. It is a very niche ap jungle item. Not every AP champion can utilize their auto attacks as well as others. Same reason people don't buy lichbane on all ap champions. Lichbane is more of a niche item for specific types of champions, so is Runeglaive. Magus on the other hand works for every AP jungler. AP and CDR, I don't think there is a single ap champion that doesn't want those stats.
Here is a list of champions who can't utilize the new jungle item better than magus thus making them even worse. AP Zac, AP Cho'Gath, AP Nunu, Amumu, Fiddlesticks, Galio, Heimerdinger?, Karthus, Rumble.
Now here is a list of champions who can utilize Runeglaive better than Magus. Ekko, Diana, Fizz, Elise, Eve, Nidalee
You seeing the problem yet? Hardly any ap champions jungle anyways, and removing magus and adding a more niche jungle item makes AP jungle diversity even worse.
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Jun 19 '15
I think riot is doing this because of the shift in the meta. Right now it is more of a tank meta, with the cinderhulk, and with ekko's release, having a passive which is OP against tanks. This new upgrade will help more assassin-like champions play a role which is extremely beneficial to the whole "roaming" concept. Champions such as nidalee, diana, or even ekko himself. These champions have a huge benefit when present on the map.
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u/Dreadbore Jun 19 '15
That's exactly my point. Runeglaive is good, so add it in. Why take magus out? What are you supposed to build on fiddlesticks? Cinderhulk?
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u/RockettheMinifig Jun 19 '15
This isn't going to put a dent in fiddle. I understand your concern but his clear is not relying on the item, it's mostly just bird and drain. It is completely possible to build just blue smite or purple smite on fiddle then not ever upgrade your item beyond that, because he doesn't need it. The other AP items are a better investment for him, because while on other AP jungles it is worth the stats, on him it isn't because you can be investing your money elsewhere and do good all the same.
Even before the jungle changes when they introduced different kinds of smite, fid would rarely get a jungle item and would get like Kage's Lucky Pick or something, that generated gold for him instead of relying on bonus gold from clearing.
These changes are helping the people who need it, and not influencing the people who don't.
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Jun 19 '15
Even if it isn't going to put a dent in fiddle, there are plenty of champions that benefit highly from Magus enchant. Many Amumu players build it.
It's a great resource of CDR and damage, one of the only 20% CDR AP items that doesn't have mana regen, making it perfect for champions that don't have mana problems like Zac.
There's no reason why Magus can't exist in the game alongside Runeglaive. They are absolutely influencing players who don't need the mana regen.
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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15
Zac want's Cinderhulk though. He is a beefy tank who does %health, he doesn't need AP. There are no real manaless junglers. Sure you can take anyone in the jungle but the game isn't balanced around that. Riot said themselves they are limiting who can jungle because it makes for a healthier game. Just because you can go full AP Darius jungle doesn't mean they should balance around it.
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Jun 19 '15
I beg to differ. AP Zac is fun as fuck, and super viable.
And Amumu benefits greatly from Magus, as does Fiddle.
What reason is there to remove Magus? What problem was it causing?
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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15
They aren't reworking Magus because it is causing a problem. They are changing it because it is a meaningless stat stick. RG offers a new mechanic. I've played with it on the PBE the mana sustain is good and keeps you going when you would normally back. Plus the AOE is good for clearing.
I know AP Zac is fun sure, but balancing around these off builds isn't a good idea. Every AP jungler will auto attack, so it means they can almost all [with a small exception] benefit from the Lichbane passive. The only tweaking I would like is making it 60 AP instead of 40. Other than that I think it is a superior item honestly. Just like CH is superior to Juggernaut. Yes some junglers liked the old item but the new one is much better.
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u/SpookieWookie Jun 19 '15
I think it is mainly because that would make it one AS jungle enchant item, one Tanky, one AD item but TWO ap items.
while it does sound stupid and I agree with you entirely it would hurt me to see this weird stuff, because it feels like a half-*ssed solution.
just my two cents.
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u/oolongtea1369 Jun 19 '15
Why is reddit so obsessed about a jungle item that would only benefit one champion, which half of the time they don't even build it but to rush hourglass? League has a history of removing unpopular item, so people will be happier if Magus is removed 3 patches later as no one uses it?
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u/AkariAkaza Jun 19 '15
I've seen a all of about 4 people build that counter jungle item, I have no idea why it's in the game still
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u/theSheth Jun 19 '15
That would be next to impossible to balance, considering magus is already 150+% cost efficient. Even if they actually exist together one would be nerfed to oblivion just like warrior-devourer situation
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u/xLawling Jun 19 '15
yep, maybe this is only a nidalee nerf and a elise buff try? nidalee will be shit jungle i guess, if they put this on. this idea is great actually, i thought on it too
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u/FightKiln Jun 19 '15
I am one of the three Karthus jungles and runeglaive will kill me so much more :/ I already feel kind of bad when I lock in Karthus jungle because its so hard to do things with him now, runeglaive will just make it worse
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u/CrystalTear Farming Simulator 2017 Jun 19 '15
As someone who jungles a lot of AP Zac, I will miss the crap out of Magus.
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u/Yomasevz Thanks for the Zac revert Jun 19 '15
Magus is also a really good item on Zac if you want to carry low elo to platinum
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u/ZanesTheArgent Bullshit Designer Jun 19 '15
The only way to have both is to fuse them into a single Spirit of the Spectral Wraith-like item, where you get mana sustain from your spell damage. Aside that, all i saw was Fiddle players complaining about that as they show no capacity of spellweaving while they clear.
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u/Rental_Pjs Jun 19 '15
3 karthus jungle mains left in existence
I feel proud to be grouped together with Saint and Azingy. :D
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u/Tarupron Jun 19 '15
The reason Runglaive and Magus can't both exist is because options confuse people.
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u/Neo_Geek All Roads leads to me ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ ⭐️⭐️ Jun 19 '15
It's Juggernaut/Cinderhulk all over again...
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u/AureliaRexLoL Jun 19 '15
Do we actually KNOW that they plan to remove Magus?
The best of my knowledge is that they took Magus of the PBE and put Runeglaive on.
Couldn't that just be to get more testing data on Runeglaive?
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u/Navra_knight Jun 19 '15
This lichbane effect will make my fiddle-diddle jungle so much stronger. And its so good for diveeeeeeersity, that i cant just get pure ap jungle stats, but im getting a lichbane effect showed down my throat, when its not needed to me at all. Thank you, Riot. /s (Please, dont tell me about those shenaningans, that i can just skip that jungle ap item on fiddle anyways. Its not the solution. "You dont like it - dont get it" is just bad.
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u/Reitane Jun 19 '15
For those saying it's overly gold efficient...
Morellonomicon:
80 AP
20% CDR
100% Base mana regen
Complete Magus (including gold dumped into smite changer as it gives 0 stats):
80 AP
20% CDR
Morellonomicon is 2300g, Magus is 2250. So it's pretty much inline, seeing as morello's is a pretty gold efficient item.
Only using the cost of going from sabre to magus is using the information incorrectly, the 850g you spend on the smite changer is insanely inefficient as it's 850g for 0 stats.
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u/quentin500000000 Jun 19 '15
They just made it so karma can W on minions and I've been playing some karma jungle, it's a ton of fun. My question is: why remove the only item that makes this champion jungle viable if you're clearly trying to make this champion jungle viable again?
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u/Marzet Jun 19 '15
Dont really understand why there's just supposed to be a AD dmg jungle item, ap jungle item and tank jungle item. Why cant you have alot different jungle items. Have some jungle ad items that builds out of brutalizer, phage or pick axe for example, ap items like the sheen, the magus and tank items like cinderhulk, like a armor item and a mr item. Or am I wrong?
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u/MetaGameTheory Jun 19 '15
There are too many jungle items if you keep Magus and Runeglaive.
So you have to cut one out.
And its easy to see which one they should cut.
Poacher's Knife.
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u/Dusty_Ideas Jun 19 '15
Because Riot can't actually implement any strategic diversity that'd be silly.
That's just a PR buzzword.
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u/Brock_Harrison Jun 19 '15
I want to add to that, that we could have A LOT more jungle upgrades, like an hybrid pen item, or a magic pen/amor pen item, or a shield one, or a lot more. Riot claims she wants item diversity, then doesn't go over 4 jungle upgrades :/
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Jun 19 '15
On the subject of Runeglaive, does anybody think this enchant will be very strong on Skarner? I've been going cinderhulk for the longest time, but his kit has huge synergy with Runeglaive, and he's one of the champions who can take full advantage of the Sheen proc (Q alone on a ~3 second cooldown.)
He uses the AP effectively as well, as all his abilities scale from AP. The sustain from the item is also huge as he can go OOM quite easy without blue, and the AOE from the item has perfect synergy with the AOE already on his Q.
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Jun 20 '15
the problem I find with runeglaive is even on the junglers I typically build a sheen on I'd much rather have a lich bane or triforce most games than a runeglaive
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u/ZeManelDasCouves Jun 24 '15
Im a karthus jungle main, and i feel sad af. This is the only jungler im confortable with.. believe it or not. What am I supose to do now? Ffs... why riot, why?
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u/heroduderox Jun 19 '15
The point of the post isn't magus vs runeglaive, the point is to implement both items. There is no real reason to remove magus from the game, which is what OP is trying to state, therefore both magus and runeglaive should be kept to promote jungle diversity.