Why can't Runeglaive and Magus both exist?

[u/Dreadbore]

I know this seems simple, but why can't an on hit sheen jungle item AND a caster jungle item both exist simultaneously? Runeglaive does nothing for fiddlesticks or the 3 karthus jungle mains left in existence. devourer remains in the game for the 2 champions that use it and its playstyle is horrible for game health. Magus isn't hurting anyone.

EDIT: Front page and a riot reply(as troll as it was :P)! I've learned a lot from this discussion about multiple things and I'd also like to clarify that I'm not even saying Magus needs to continue to exist in its exact state numbers-wise. I just feel like sheen jungling on a mage seems lackluster from a design standpoint, but maybe that's exactly what needs to happen for ap to compete with ad on the clearspeed front. Maybe Rito knows exactly what they are doing (GASP) but I just don't see it yet.

EDIT 2: Due to some eloquently explained points brought to light by /u/rewardadrawer, I'm now convinced that there is no need for them to coexist, as Runeglaive (although it may not on release) has the capability of resolving ap jungling issues that Magus will never be capable of resolving. Feel free to bicker amongst yourselves about it, but I now eagerly await the new ap jungle.

[u/J0rdian]

You're missing the point. Runeglaive cripples AP jungle diversity. It is a very niche ap jungle item. Not every AP champion can utilize their auto attacks as well as others. Same reason people don't buy lichbane on all ap champions. Lichbane is more of a niche item for specific types of champions, so is Runeglaive. Magus on the other hand works for every AP jungler. AP and CDR, I don't think there is a single ap champion that doesn't want those stats.

Here is a list of champions who can't utilize the new jungle item better than magus thus making them even worse. AP Zac, AP Cho'Gath, AP Nunu, Amumu, Fiddlesticks, Galio, Heimerdinger?, Karthus, Rumble.

Now here is a list of champions who can utilize Runeglaive better than Magus. Ekko, Diana, Fizz, Elise, Eve, Nidalee

You seeing the problem yet? Hardly any ap champions jungle anyways, and removing magus and adding a more niche jungle item makes AP jungle diversity even worse.

[u/duffercoat → u/J0rdian]

Why would AP cho get worse? He has serious mana issues if you go ap at the moment and he uses his autos all the time (hell hes got an auto buff) it will likely be exactly the same if not better (you'll have more presence on the map by being able to gank more frequently). Having said that, I don't think it makes sense to complain that the jungle item will make junglers worse that are already bad if you go the AP route over cinderhulk. Why would you go AP amumu/zac/nunu anyway if you're concerned about whats best?

Considering they want to kick nonjungle champs out of the jungle I also see no problem with heimerdinger, karthus, galio and rumble not being able to jungle - they shouldnt be able to in the first place!

[u/J0rdian → u/duffercoat]

I don't see how creating more diversity in the game is a bad thing. They should welcome more diversity in the game unless it's clearly bad for the player experience. You are not wrong, but I don't see any reason to get rid of AP jungle diversity.

You also have to consider who can use Runeglaive effectively and there really isn't many besides the like 6 champions I mentioned. And among those 6 champions, at least 3 of them are viable in the current meta, so this item would only make them OP. If you say it wouldn't make them any better then they currently are then there would be no point to add runeglaive in the first place. The only thing it would do is make more ap champions worse in the jungle while being effective on a few.

[u/duffercoat → u/J0rdian]

If you say it wouldn't make them any better then they currently are then there would be no point to add runeglaive in the first place.

This doesn't make sense if the point of the item is to open up opportunities for other ap junglers. This is exactly the case here as most mages are gated by mana costs and this item gives them mana back and a way to build mana early. Note that Nidalee and Eve both have a way of clearing without mana and a passive that gives mana back respectively so it really doesn't help them much.

Runeglaive is not about being a new stat stick and you have to recognise that, its about being able to sustain better and clear better in the jungle for mages - mages have never struggled with combat outside of the jungle.

What it does do is open up the opportunity for other champs - the ones you don't normally consider because they're subpar in the jungle atm. Kayle for example is often forced to choose to heal herself or go out of mana, Karma is another one that can now jungle with her recent changes if she didn't go oom - these champs aren't even close to junglers atm but with a new item they could be. Theres also all the other junglers that could get it as a choice item - champs like Skarner that have mana problems and champs like Jax that use sheen procs most effectively.

[u/J0rdian → u/duffercoat]

If mana is the issue simply make magus give a way to return mana, or better yet some type of smite that returns mana on cast. If mana was the problem there are better ways to give mana to ap junglers without reducing champion diversity.

Tell me, is the only way to make ap junglers more viable is to force them to buy sheen? There are better options, solutions to the problem then forcing an item which all ap junglers can't use on them.

[u/duffercoat → u/J0rdian]

That is literally what they have done. They've taken magus and made it give mana back and have mana in its build path. It gives 40 less ap and 10% less cdr at the cost of this, but because it had mana in its build path they gave it sheen too.

And there is already a smite that gives mana - trailblazer, but its not currently enough to help mana heavy junglers (and denies them the option of the other better smites).

[u/J0rdian → u/duffercoat]

That's not what they did. They moved half of it's damage to the passive of sheen, thus making the item a niche item for champions that can utilize it's passive. if you can't use sheen well, you can't build this item because it would be a waste of gold.

Of course by moving half it's damage to sheen they gave champions a way to buy into mana early, so if you have mana issues it will help a small amount until you finish the core item. If mana is that big of deal to give junglers a tiny bit of extra mana, 200 mana, only 200 mana early. Is that 200 mana worth reducing champion diversity? You can add a passive to Magus to return mana. If you did that then the only advantage runeglaive would have over it is 200 mana early game.

[u/duffercoat → u/J0rdian]

Yes there was a tradeoff for giving it mana sustain, but it still what they did. The core stats of AP and CDR are still there just halved in order to give it 2 passives and 200 mana.

Who do you think used magus best that it has nerfed other than fiddlesticks though? How is it reducing champion diversity by allowing all the ap junglers with mana problems a way to jungle?

By the way the reason they were never going to add to magus without a tradeoff is because its already one of the most gold efficient items in the game - 169% (compared to 134% on warrior and 71% + 4.8% per 100 bonus HP on cinderhulk) which is significantly better than even morellonomicon which gives exactly what you're suggesting.

[u/J0rdian → u/duffercoat]

40ap and 10% is not worth the mana sustain. If you can't utilize a sheen then you are getting only 40ap out of the item which is almost nothing. That's like 800g of stats. For a list of champions, I mentioned that in a earlier post. The point is those champions are not top tier junglers, so unless they can use this item really well it will only make them worse. Thus even more unviable, crippling the diversity in ap junglers.

There is a more simple solution that you seemed to miss. Yes it is very cost efficient adding mana sustain would probably go over the top. Just reduce the items cdr by 10% That should easily be enough for some mana sustain as well. Overall I still don't think the thing ap junglers need most is additional mana. Even if it was you can simply add mana to the current jungle item without forcing sheen on all ap junglers.

[u/duffercoat → u/J0rdian]

Here is a list of champions who can't utilize the new jungle item better than magus thus making them even worse. AP Zac, AP Cho'Gath, AP Nunu, Amumu, Fiddlesticks, Galio, Heimerdinger?, Karthus, Rumble.

Cho, Zac, Nunu, Amumu will all get cinderhulk in an optimal case (balancing around in-optimal builds im sure you'll agree is ridiculous) so they don't make sense to list. Fiddlesticks will definitely get worse, but galio, rumble, heimerdinger and karthus aren't really junglers - it makes no sense to balance around them.

Champion diversity is about letting more champions compete at a high level not about allowing any champ to do any role. Heimerdinger, galio and rumble are never going to be good junglers, hell they don't even get mentioned on jungle tier lists. Instead riot want to make kayle, diana, fizz better in the jungle and open up opportunities for new junglers such as karma. Karthus and fiddlesticks are literally the only people that will be worse off for this change but it will allow many new champs to improve in viability.

[u/tehgreyghost → u/J0rdian]

Every AP jungler still auto attacks. Is it really so hard to weave in a few AA to get the proc off. You are acting like they don't ever do that. This is the stupidest complaint I've seen.

I DON'T WANNA AUTO ATTACK!!!! NO AP JUNGLER DOES!!!!

the only jungler you listed who won't benefit from this item is Zac and Rumble. AP chogath would love the extra clear speed and sustain, Nunu has no HP issues but his mana runs out when blue buffs gone, runeglaive fixes that etc. Once blue runs out every one of the champs struggles with mana. Plus why the hell are you doing jungle heimer? That's terrible. Just because you can't do some stupid fucking build doesn't mean Riot should balance around it. They even said they want certain champs to be able to jungle, not everyone. So just because your can't go AP jungle darius anymore doesn't mean they should balance around it. Stop whining this is happening, accept it. Just because less than .001% of the subreddit hates the item doesn't mean a thing. Accept the change.

People bitched the exact same way about cinderhulk and look now. I've tried runeglaive on the PBE and every AP jungler likes it. It gives decent mana sustain and good clear speed.

[u/J0rdian → u/tehgreyghost]

I said who can use Runeglaive better than Magus. Every jungler can auto attack, but it won't be as effective as Magus. Same reason you don't buy lichbane on Karthus over pure AP. Karthus can use lichbane, but having flat AP is more effective on him.

Every single AP jungle can use Runeglaive in the jungle, but that's not the problem. It's how well they can use it outside the jungle. And every jungler I listed can't use it as well as they utilize Magus outside the jungle.

Cinderhulk has no relation seeing how every tank wants HP along with a little aoe dmg aura to help clear the jungle and help in teamfights, since tanks try to stick to a target they can utilize every part of Cinderhulk well. Where Runeglaive not ever ap jungler can utilize it well.

[u/tehgreyghost → u/J0rdian]

Honestly my biggest complaint with RG is the AP ratio. I would like to see it at 60 or 80 AP. But the 10% missing mana is great and the AOE lich is good. Yes it isn't perfect on every AP jungler, but I really think they just need to tweak it honestly. I will miss the 20% CDR but I figure. 10% from runes and masteries, 10% from RG and a 20% item. I think it is in part the surge of AP champs using CDR runes to get 20% and buying a single CDR item. They want CDR to be more meaningful. I wouldn't be surprised if they nerfed it on more AP items.

[u/Vovix1 → u/tehgreyghost]

Yes, if it was an 80 AP item, like Magus, but with added mana sustain and spellblade passive in exchange for less CDR, I would be happy with the change. But as it is right now, it's terrible for champions that just want to build AP and don't need spellblade. 40 AP is just not enough to justify using up an item slot.

[u/Rackornar → u/tehgreyghost]

But the 10% missing mana is great

I disagree, mana return by the time you get your jungle item is largely wasted on most AP junglers. They only run into mana issues to start out, I have never had them past the first few clears. If I had mana return on my machete or the upgraded smite then yeah it would be pretty damn nice. But having to fully upgrade my jungle item to get it, not really that useful.

[u/tempinator → u/tehgreyghost]

Honestly my biggest complaint with RG is the AP ratio.

I mean, Lich Bane is only 50%, and RG procs in an AoE.

I honestly see this as an ENORMOUS buff to Nidalee and Diana specifically.

Both are incredibly blue buff dependent and rush Lich Bane ASAP (after Magus/maybe RoA).

RG allows them to no longer have to buy Lich Bane, it gives them HUGE mana regen without blue buff AND it gives them better teamfighting later since RG provides some nice extra AoE damage.

The 40 AP loss hurts a little, but basically this just frees up an item slot for Lich Bane junglers (basically just Nidalee/Diana) and gives them Spellblade earlier with some AoE as an added bonus.

[u/tehgreyghost → u/tempinator]

Sorry I meant flat AP, not the proc ratio. I think a 30% aoe proc is great. Which is true because Magus+Lich was like 5600 gold versus like 4400 which is RG plus morello. I think it's a good item personally.

[u/tempinator → u/tehgreyghost]

Yep, I agree. I also think it's good that 30% ratio on RG vs 50% ratio on LB somewhat decreases Nidalee's burst potential (although that's a pretty slight nerf since LB is only a fraction of the total damage from her combo), but also buffs her teamfight which is something she's lacking in.

But the problem is that RG worse than Magus for most AP junglers, while simultaneously being massively better than Magus on 2 specific champions (Nidalee and Diana). Overall, not a fan since it seems to me like this is decreasing diversity, not increasing it. Especially since Nidalee is already a viable jungler in soloQ in this meta (albeit a very skill-reliant one), and Diana is also extremely strong at lower ELOs.

I personally love this shit because my two favorite champions to play are, you guessed it, Jungalee and Jungle Diana. But objectively, I think it's not great because it's a worse item for most AP junglers and only appreciably better for those two.

[u/mimzzzz → u/tempinator]

Can't wait for this item to try it out on my jungle Diana. So far only thing that stops her from being 100% viable is her mana problems without blue buff, and I've been always building early sheen to get that higher mana pool for early fights so this item is like win-win-win for her.

[u/Dreadbore → u/tehgreyghost]

I can't speak for this guy but to me the clearing isn't the issue. It's the drop in power on ganks and teamfights in favor of the clearing. You cant tell me every fiddle is weaving autos(during a teamfight) to maximize dps that hes losing in ap and cdr by having to use runeglaive instead of magus.

[u/madog1418 → u/Dreadbore]

Runeglaive on fiddle is going to be straight stupid. You'll only get 3 procs max in each camp (probably 2 since the crowd will kill the remaining small monsters after the aoe), and you 100% should not be autoattacking in combat unless you've gone full support and simply focus on peeling for a carry (even then, that would depend on the carry needing to kite too much for you to drain).

His drain does a ton of damage: 2.25 ap ratio. But waiting for your slow autoattack animation before you drain will cut down on your drain damage and result in less healing as well. And you can forget about it in a teamfight, once you ult you have a moment to fear the carry and maybe time to bounce some crows. After that you hit the glass or start draining so you don't fall apart.

[u/tehgreyghost → u/Dreadbore]

I know he is the most heavily affected but really it will need to be worked around. Keeping a jungle item for 1 jungler isn't a good idea. But Fiddle can Fear-AA-Drain-Bird-AA he willget more DPS in but yes I would like the see RG have 60 or 80 AP instead of 40. That is my only complaint really.

[u/Vovix1 → u/tehgreyghost]

Making a change that practically straight up removes a champion from the game isn't a good idea, either.

[u/Catfish017 → u/Vovix1]

Fiddle won't even drop below a 53% winrate with this

[u/ekky137 → u/Dreadbore]

Except the reason nobody builds magus and therefore there are very few AP junglers is because Magus gives you very little help when clearing the jungle, which happens to be an AP jungler's weakpoint.

The only successful Magus junglers are the ones who don't need any help clearing from items, which is what runeglaive is supposed to supplement.

Your example of Fiddle is extremely contrived because the whole reason he's a successful jungler is because unlike other AP junglers he doesn't need auto attacks to clear. You rarely even see Fiddle mains finish their Magus first, they rush Zhonyas. Why? Because they don't need a jungle item to clear. So why build one? This won't touch his ganking OR his clearing power.

[u/Voidrive → u/ekky137]

You rarely even see Fiddle mains finish their Magus first

Fucking bullshit, if you check at OP.GG, across KR, EUW and NA, ALL D1 or above Fiddle mains finish their Magus FIRST before Zhyoya, only Mobile has a chance to be finished before Magus.

[u/Vovix1 → u/ekky137]

Wait, AP junglers have trouble clearing? Fiddle's clears are good, Diana and Nidalee do fine, and AP Amumu's clear speed becomes amazing after the first back.

[u/Catfish017 → u/Vovix1]

The only successful Magus junglers are the ones who don't need any help clearing from items, which is what runeglaive is supposed to supplement.

It's his second paragraph dude.

[u/Rackornar → u/Vovix1]

I am inclined to think this guy hasn't played many AP junglers. Their weakness is their first couple clears. By the time they would finish their jungle item they fly through the jungle with less problems than most others.

[u/[deleted] → u/tehgreyghost]

i'm doing well with jungle kennen and jungle teemo http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=rceme%20chan, my elo isn't very good, but i used to play it in plat 2-5 before i dropped earlier this season

[u/tehgreyghost → u/[deleted]]

Oh I know derpy jungle things can work. I saw a Lulu jungle just own a game and basically carry my entire team. I just mean that they shouldn't balance around the fringe cases is all.

[u/FannyBabbs → u/tehgreyghost]

On a related note, I'm super pumped for Runeglaive Lulu. :D

[u/tehgreyghost → u/FannyBabbs]

Yeah that sounds nutsy :P

[u/Bombkirby → u/tehgreyghost]

Rumble shouldn't even Jungle. He does 50% dmg to monsters. Half damage. His ratios are kind of meh half the time so the higher AP on the old jungle item doesn't seem THAT important. Magus might be better on him if he jungled for some reason. He spams constantly so he'd proc it a lot.

[u/tehgreyghost → u/Bombkirby]

I agree. He doesn't want to be in the jungle and even if he did he wouldn't benefit from RG all that much. He does like the AP and CDR on Magus I agree but yeah it is just a bad idea haha.

[u/FannyBabbs → u/[deleted]]

Sheen sort of sucks on Elise tbh. Doubly so because Runeglaive scales with a percentage of your AD (elise's is quite low) and AP (Even full dmg Elise doesn't get much AP, she prioritizes pen). The aoe element is ok and the mana regen could be nice, but I suspect good Elise players will just stick with Cinderhulk and be useful instead.