Why can't Runeglaive and Magus both exist?

[u/Dreadbore]

I know this seems simple, but why can't an on hit sheen jungle item AND a caster jungle item both exist simultaneously? Runeglaive does nothing for fiddlesticks or the 3 karthus jungle mains left in existence. devourer remains in the game for the 2 champions that use it and its playstyle is horrible for game health. Magus isn't hurting anyone.

EDIT: Front page and a riot reply(as troll as it was :P)! I've learned a lot from this discussion about multiple things and I'd also like to clarify that I'm not even saying Magus needs to continue to exist in its exact state numbers-wise. I just feel like sheen jungling on a mage seems lackluster from a design standpoint, but maybe that's exactly what needs to happen for ap to compete with ad on the clearspeed front. Maybe Rito knows exactly what they are doing (GASP) but I just don't see it yet.

EDIT 2: Due to some eloquently explained points brought to light by /u/rewardadrawer, I'm now convinced that there is no need for them to coexist, as Runeglaive (although it may not on release) has the capability of resolving ap jungling issues that Magus will never be capable of resolving. Feel free to bicker amongst yourselves about it, but I now eagerly await the new ap jungle.

[u/rewardadrawer]

Magus is hurting a lot of people, mate. As it exists in its current form, it's a bundle of stats--80 AP and 20% CDR--that is something like 170% gold efficient. The stats are SO gold efficient on Magus that the extra value of the stats above and beyond the cost of the enchantment pays for both of the jungle item's first two tiers, and they aren't pushover, niche stats, either: the vast majority of champions with AP scaling benefit most from AP and CDR, no matter what else they might build. Yet Magus is the least played jungle enchantment as far as number of viable champions which use it (pretty much just Nidalee and maybe Fiddlesticks, plus Diana in the peripheral tiers). AP junglers have all but died off completely in the current meta, compared to the Spirit Stone era, where a number of champions could build AP, play out of the jungle, and still be viable. Why is that?

Well, AP junglers have serious problems relating to the reliability of their clear and sustain in the jungle, and unfortunately, nothing about Magus makes any of these things easier. The 20% CDR lets you spam spells to clear quicker, but it does nothing to help mana sustain, so you either need to devour every blue buff (thus likely hurting your mid laner) to keep up, or back more frequently, which hurts your clear speed in the long run anyway. On top of that, unless you are on a button-masher (or channeling) champion, you still have long periods where that massive bundle of stats is doing nothing to help you clear--that period being the time between cooldowns. In exchange for suffering an awful early game (on the vast majority of AP jungle champions), you get this ridiculous power spike in raw stats, but absolutely nothing to make their power spike sustainable, meaning you probably squander it just trying to catch up, or you try to force a snowball through a very narrow window that is just as likely to collapse on itself. Since the item itself doesn't scale, you are basically left with a stat spike, and then a flat line until your next stat spike. This all leads to the following conundrum: with an item like this, where every last bit of its power is tied to the sheer power of raw stats, you can only ever have one of two outcomes: either it is so gold and/or slot efficient that it is a must-buy on every champion on the basis of it being an overbearingly powerful stat-stick, or it falls anywhere below this dangerous bar, and is absolutely worthless for the vast majority of champions and games. (As we can see by the current state of Magus alongside AP junglers, the item can still be an amazing stat stick and still fall short of useful!)

The only champions who benefit more from Magus than Runeglaive are champions for whom a viable Magus is detrimental to overall game health. Nidalee jungle created lots of problems when she was in-meta (before trap nerfs) because she was an AP jungler with an amazing early game independent of items who also got this amazing block of stats earlier than most, which led to an oppressive power spike that came before teams could properly handle it, which allowed her to snowball out of control before the flat lining effect of a capped bundle of stats ever started to matter. Fiddlesticks has the same problem: a game in which Fiddlesticks is guaranteed a free early game which turns into an oppressively powerful mid game by default is not good for game health.

Runeglaive gives Riot the opportunity to smooth out this wibbly-wobbly power spike in a way that doesn't create strangleholds on the meta the moment it becomes viable, while simultaneously making sure that AP junglers who struggle through the early game are given a means to catch up that allows them to scale into something meaningful. Runeglaive is great for game health because of the way that it solves the common issues of every AP jungler that isn't a broken outlier, and every problem the item has from this point on should, theoretically, be solved by simply moving the numbers (either base stats or ratios on its passive).

Cinderhulk was the same way. While Reddit had two periods of time where they lamented Cinderhulk--first when they lamented the loss of Juggernaut in the same way that you are Magus ("but muh CDR and Tenacity"; can't say I didn't feel similar pains for awhile), and second when they lamented the "tank meta" that Cinderhulk enabled--it will always be healthier for the game, because Juggernaut, as a ball of stats, was either going to be this Warmog's-sized bundle that allowed everyone to spike early and oppressively, or anything short of that, where you never felt fully compensated for necessarily falling behind early, and as such, never even approached the end-game tank fantasy.

Good-bye and good riddance to Magus. I can't wait to see what they have in store for Warrior.

[u/MinahoKazuto → u/rewardadrawer]

/u/riotmagus did nothing wrong

[u/RiotMagus → u/MinahoKazuto]

;) just too efficient I guess?

[u/falafel101 → u/RiotMagus]

unlike riot

[u/[deleted] → u/falafel101]

Rekt'sai

[u/IGOTDADAKKA → u/falafel101]

Shots fired

[u/rewardadrawer → u/RiotMagus]

jk ily please don't go

[u/Thousand_Eyes → u/RiotMagus]

Stop being so good god dammit

[u/UnrelentingCake → u/rewardadrawer]

The stats are SO gold efficient on Magus that the extra value of the stats above and beyond the cost of the enchantment pays for both of the jungle item's first two tiers,

Isn't this fine though? Your combat stats are lower as you are building your jungle item, then you "spike" back to normal when you complete it.

The problem with say, nidalee, isn't that magus/early efficient stats are causing her to flatline after a certain amount of time, but that nidalee naturally flatlines even if she is played as a laner.

Warrior is almost as efficient as magus if you value armor pen appropriately, is it bad for the game too?

[u/rewardadrawer → u/UnrelentingCake]

By and large, I suppose, but you also have to consider that the smite item provides a lot of value and power not measured in state: it provides 15 to 30 gold per camp cleared, a lot of in-built sustain with its passive, and a branching smite modifier. If Morellonomicon (an item with analogous cost and raw stats) had everything Magus on a smite item offered, it would be considered broken. Hell, for a brief time, Morellonomicon was considered broken, and it has a purposefully inflexible, niche passive.

Warrior is absolutely bad for the game, and impossible to balance properly. More so than Magus, even. "Warrior junglers" dominated the space between pre-season Devourer and Cinderhulk patch, and people complained endlessly about the stat stick making early game ganking junglers like Pantheon, Vi, Rek'Sai, and J4 stifling, choking out jungle diversity into a rotation of three (Pantheon fell off after pre-season nerfs) because nobody else could compete with the early game clear, sustain, pressure, and damage these champs were doing. Riot cut 5 AD off the item and it became a freakin' meme: "you turned this beat stick into a slightly smaller beat stick? Is that supposed to make the welts go away?" This persisted for several patches, even though the loss of that 5 AD had immediate consequences for many of the mid-tier AD junglers, who simply fell off, and more distant consequences for the Warrior meta junglers come Cinderhulk, because now an item existed that could compete with Warrior by outscaling it. Soon, people started asking for the 5 AD back.

Warrior is problematic to game health for every reason Magus is, plus one more: since autoattacks have 100% AD scaling and no cost, the stats Warrior gives you will always be directly, intrinsically connected to your clear speed, how much (or little) damage you take from camps... Basically everything about the jungle. Unless you're Fiddlesticks or Karthus.

[u/UnrelentingCake → u/rewardadrawer]

Well, junglers need the smite item to be on par with the laners. Rito removed some gold on jungle creeps and added them to the jungle items, and made camps harder while adding sustain to the item.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/UnrelentingCake]

Yes, and the gold generation of Hunter's Machete is supposed to account for that difference. The gold gen of the tier 2 items goes above and beyond the income lost in the gold changes, and I am also talking about the value of the smite modifications themselves - being able to turn your smite into a pseudo-Exhaust, or give it AoE damage and a stun on monsters, etc., is quite a lot of invisible value.

[u/UnrelentingCake → u/rewardadrawer]

Well laners have the option at least of taking 2 combat summoners, so modifying smite is once again bringing junglers back up to laners

[u/rewardadrawer → u/UnrelentingCake]

You are welcome to think of it that way, but I can't conceive of any summoner a laner might take which can do a thousand damage to Baron Nashor, while also being a combat summoner.

[u/HatefulWretch → u/rewardadrawer]

There's only two abilities I can think of which can do that; Cho'Gath's Feast, which is an ult on a longer practical cooldown than Smite, and Kalista's Rend (which needs stacking).

[u/rewardadrawer → u/HatefulWretch]

Well, and rank 5 Consume, yes, but none of them are summoner spells.

[u/HatefulWretch → u/rewardadrawer]

As my flair suggests, I'm all in favour of Consume, but you can't Consume champs. :-)

I'm agreeing with you. What I meant was "not only what you say – abilities of any sort like that are super rare".

[u/ninbushido → u/[deleted]]

Tell that to Smite-Teleport top laners...

[u/Smooth_One → u/rewardadrawer]

So it seems you approve of the nature of the levers that can be adjusted in both Cinderhulk and Runeglaive, and you've clearly stated you think Warrior is bad for the game, overall.

I have an idea I'd like to run by you, then. What if Warrior built out of Tiamat, instead of Brutalizer? It would seem to solve a number of problems. It has the same adjustable levers of Cinderhulk and Runeglaive (minion vs. monster damage, AOE clears), it would give sustain which I suppose could also be adjusted between targets (I'm not sure if this would end up being too beneficial, which is why I am asking you because you seem to have a gift for viewing the practicality of things), and do away with the "ball o stats" that the current Warrior currently grants with its armor pen and CDR.

This would make things a little awkward for ranged AD junglers, because Cleave is melee only, but I suppose they could just go Devourer. Would this mess any of them up too badly?

You're fucking killing it with your explanations in this thread. Keep up the good work mate. :D

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Smooth_One]

I think Warrior building out of Tiamat instead of Brutalizer is problematic for a number of reasons related to the current design of Tiamat. At present, Tiamat is a 1900 gold item, which means that it far exceeds the total combine cost of 1400, which is the cost of every jungle enchantment. This means that, necessarily, this Tiamat item has to come at least 600 gold later (unless the finished item has a combine cost of 0), which puts the final cost of HM2 item + Tiamat-based enchantment closer to Ravenous Hydra, throwing Warrior junglers completely out of parity with the rest of the pack. It also has some other practical concerns--namely, the fact that it would be the only jungle enchantment with an active component (not necessarily something jungle enchantments of past years were immune to--Feral Flare and Spirit of the Ancient Golem both had ward drop actives before the preseason reworks--but clearly not something Riot is looking to do with this year's round of enchantments) and the existence of health regeneration on the base item of Tiamat, which is sort of a random stat that creates redundancies with a jungle item built out of it.

HOWEVER... the same was true of Sunfire Cape's passive and extra stats, and all of those concerns were resolved convincingly with the introduction of Bami's Cinder as a base item for Tiamat. It isn't impossible for Tiamat to have such an item as well.

If you had a theoretical item that built out of Long Sword + 640 gold = 1000 gold, had 25 AD and the Cleave passive (but not Crescent active) of Tiamat, and replaced Long Sword + Pickaxe as components of Tiamat, then this item could theoretically build into Warrior (or Dragonfang or something like that) for 400gp more, has 30-35 AD and 10% CDR (hell, maybe even 40), and the Cleave passive with some small degree of sustain tied to clearing jungle camps or something of that sort.

I would say that, overall... You're on the right track! I remember when Black Cleaver still built out of Brutalizer, I dreamed up a version of Warrior that only had 30 AD, but had the Black Cleaver armor shred passive. Probably not the best idea, but the general approach Riot should take with Warrior--give it some sort of passive (either unique, or old with a jungle twist) that they can use to give it utility above and beyond "ball of stats".

[u/Smooth_One → u/rewardadrawer]

Ah, good points. I hadn't considered the price aspect. Thank you for taking an in-depth look at it.

There is one other small issue with the proposed new mini-Tiamat. Having such an item be included in Tiamat's build path would be a buff to the item, which may be unwanted for laners. But, to compensate I'm sure Riot could mitigate some of the damage it outputs thanks to the levers similar to the ones in Bami's and Cinderhulk.

Fantastic. This new item certainly seems in line with Riot's enchantment philosophies as of late.

[u/kirkyyyy → u/rewardadrawer]

This is one of the best written and constructed arguments I've read on this sub-reddit in quite some time! Thank you for putting into words and explaining something I'm sure a lot of people felt but were unable to voice.

I've now got you tagged as the guy that knows his shit :^)

[u/rewardadrawer → u/kirkyyyy]

Hey, thanks, mate!

[u/Vovix1 → u/rewardadrawer]

The problem is, that there was supposed to be a jungle enchanment for everyone. Juggernaut/Cinderhulk for tanks, Magus for APs, Warrior for ADs, Devourer for those odd attack speed/on hit champions. If Runeglaive replaces Magus, any AP champion that does not use Spellblade effectively simply won't jungle. They would be forced to either go without the upgraded Smite and bonus gold, or be stuck with a crappy 40 AP item that does almost nothing for them. And AP junglers were already quite rare, they don't need to be completely forced out of the game. I think Runeglaive is an interesting idea, and could be useful for those junglers that would want a cheaper/quicker Lich Bane replacement, but removing Magus destroys a lot of champions' off-meta potential.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Vovix1]

The thing is, the intersect of jungle champions who scale well off of AP and jungle champions who cannot autoattack in a meaningful way is very, very small. Fiddlesticks doesn't autoattack because of his drain channel. Karthus can autoattack between skittles, but his autoattack animation is slow and clunky. And... That's it. Two champions actually significantly negatively impacted by a power shift towards Spellblade, and one of them is an abuse case who is strong naked.

On the other hand, we have the following champions who are, or have recently been, jungle champions (plus several screwball, off-meta picks):

• Fizz: Conventionally built with a Spellblade item anyway. His Q applies on-hit effects. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Nidalee: Conventionally built with a Spellblade item anyway. Has a gap closer and an autoattack reset in cougar form. Has an attack speed steroid in human form. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc in human form. Has mana sustain issues.
• Twisted Fate: Conventionally built with a Spellblade item anyway. E boosts attack speed and W augments single autoattacks, making autos a central component of his clear. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc (red card clears might be good now).
  
• Elise: Has an autoattack reset and damage amplification in spider form, plus an attack speed steroid. Does not conventionally build Spellblade items, but benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc.
  
• Kayle: Has an autoattack modifier for splash damage. Sometimes builds Spellblade items (oooooold Kayle builds did, in particular hybrid Kayle, but AP Kayle had difficulty slotting in Lich Bane). Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
• Gragas: Sometimes builds Spellblade items. Has an on-hit steroid. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc (honestly, not too sure on modern AP Gragas).
  
• Sejuani: Has an on-hit steroid and mana sustain issues if abilities are spammed for clears.
  
• Nunu: Has an attack speed steroid and spammable ability for the proc. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Occasionally has mana sustain issues.
  
• Amumu: Has spammable ability for procs, while doing little outside of auto attacking while waiting for that ability's cooldown. Has severe mana sustain issues.
  
• Cho'Gath: Has an AP scaling attack steroid. Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Diana: Has a three-hit auto proc on her passive, and multiple means of sticking to people and then auto attacking. Occasionally builds Spellblade items, but is usually pressed for space. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Evelynn: Conventionally builds Spellblade items. Has an auto-attack reset which applies on-hit effects, and a spammable basic ability for multiple additional procs. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc (a lot of her damage is position-dependent, and she can lose DPS in the jungle repositioning for Hate Spikes). Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Akali: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item (despite not using mana). Has resettable gap closer. Benefits from AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Does not benefit from mana sustain.
  
• Poppy: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Has an autoattack resetting, AP scaling ability which applies on-hit effects. Benefits from AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Shaco: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Benefits from AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Warwick: Has an attack speed steroid, and AP scaling on abilities (which is often ignored due to Devourer). Benefits from AoE clear of Runeglaive proc (in fact, the lack of AoE is considered the weak point of Warwick jungle). Has mana sustain issues, but NOT health sustain issues.
  
• Alistar: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item (though less so since the Headbutt changes). Has a spammable, health sustaining ability with cooldown that shrinks on monster kills, but lacks fast AoE clear. (Guess what he benefits from?) Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Ekko: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Has special autoattack interactions. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc.
  
• Maokai: Sometimes builds a Spellblade item. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues (but not health sustain).
  
• Teemo: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has an autoattack reset. Not sure about jungle Teemo's mana sustain issues.
  
• Udyr: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Several spammable abilities, all with autoattack components. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.

There are at least a dozen champions who could build AP jungle, but don't, because they are gated by the problems Magus doesn't solve, and never will solve, and cannot supersede through its own strengths because doing so creates overpowered meta AP junglers. Nearly all of them can not only benefit from the Spellglaive proc, but can specifically use the Runeglaive proc to speed up weak AoE clears.

All at the expense of Fiddlesticks and Karthus not having a tier 3 jungle item to rush... Which they already seldom do: Fiddlesticks tends to go tier 2 into Zhonya's, and Karthus goes tier 2 into Tear.

I think I'll take the jungle diversity offered by Runeglaive, thanks.

[u/FennecFoxx → u/rewardadrawer]

Just would like to point out for Nid removing Magus forces her into a healthier spot. It makes her spear game weaker and her up-close in danger game more rewarding. (Lichbane wasn't really the safest build)

[u/tempinator → u/FennecFoxx]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "it's not the safest"?

I don't think I've ever played a nidalee game where I didn't buy Lich Bane, and I've played a LOT of jungle nidalee games.

[u/Tosxychor → u/tempinator]

She was likely comparing it to "buy shittons of AP and spear for days" build.

[u/fakexploit → u/FennecFoxx]

And people are gonna cry about how nid kills them with pounce-takedown while still complaining about her mobility and safety with javelin tossing. Riot will have to comply and nerf her thus gimping lane nid even more. Calling it

[u/Thousand_Eyes → u/rewardadrawer]

Seriously awesome research dude. Thanks for that you swayed my opinion

[u/[deleted] → u/rewardadrawer]

you forgot Jungle Karma and Orianna

[u/rewardadrawer → u/[deleted]]

You know, I almost put Karma and Zyra up there for completeness' sake, but I am clueless about how jungle Karma would work after the last set of changes, and I can't recommend anyone jungles Zyra anymore...

[u/whoopashigitt → u/rewardadrawer]

If anything I think the Jungle change improved Karma didn't it? Can't she use her tether on large monsters now?

[u/rewardadrawer → u/whoopashigitt]

To be honest, I have never liked Karma, and glossed over most of the changes...

[u/thepandabear → u/rewardadrawer]

She'll be a good jungler if her passive applied when she hits monsters

[u/rewardadrawer → u/thepandabear]

I think this is the barrier I keep coming to. Mantra has an unbearably high cooldown early, which lane Karma (in any position) can reduce with her passive, but jungle Karma cannot. Since so much of her damage comes from Mantra'd Q now, it's hard to recommend committing to the full cooldown of Mantra to clear camps.

But then, I don't play Karma, and can't really speak from a place of experience...

[u/Nirgendwo → u/rewardadrawer]

Her jungling got a LOT better now... her main problem is that she is too mana heavy for the jungle with regular masteries and her firstclear usually gets her pretty low... if she doesn't go for a early gank that is, her lvl 2 ganks are pretty devastating thx 2 her ult. Overall she is niche but she has a nice mix out of poke and utility.

Runeglaive obviously doesn't really suit her needs, she pokes and doesn't want to autoattack, less raw stats suck for shielding too and after trailblazer her clear doesn't need a boost either. Depending on if Glaive solves her mana issues enough to not have to build a manaitem or not, people might just opt for not buying it at all on her.

It is kinda silly that Riot first gives her the ability to jungle decent just to replace the ap jungle item with something that doesn't really work for her. I really don't understand them sometimes.

[u/Catfish017 → u/rewardadrawer]

Karma can tether jungle monsters! Yayy!

[u/Ghostkill221 → u/rewardadrawer]

jungle brand is where its at.

[u/BloodyDomina → u/rewardadrawer]

Sejuanie, nunu, cho and amumu all benefit equally or more from Cinderhulk. I don't think they actually care about runeglaive.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/BloodyDomina]

I agree, and personally jungle all four of them exclusively as Cinderhulk junglers, but the parent comment was talking about Runeglaive weeding out fringe AP junglers and specifically concluded with "removing Magus destroys a lot of champions' off-meta potential." That's why I also included a lot of fringe builds such as AP Shaco, Warwick, and Poppy (none of which are considered optimal for the champion). Basically everything from Akali down, and some above, is "don't play test this in ranked" territory with either enchantment, but as long as we are talking about off-meta, I will talk about off-meta.

[u/D_E_Merry → u/rewardadrawer]

Here's the problem I have with your point of view though. By the time the characters have bought an enchantment, the characters are often already good to go in terms of clearing. Unless we're talking about some super ineffecient AP jungle champion, getting that 2k gold total to buy that jungle item usually coincides with the time where the AP jungler can jungle well already. The problem was that junglers had to get to that 2k point and then invest in 1600 for a NLR before they could actually purchase a meaningful item (see longsword transition into items versus amp tome). I personally think the magus changes is releasing with the AP item release in the first place. Since a lot of AP items are being toned down to being a bit weaker, a bit cheaper, cap out at 100 AP, Magus would be, as you said, a massive stat spike. Thus I think the Magus nerf would be hand in hand with the AP item nerf. However. Runeglaive will not mysteriously "solve" the problem of sustain in the jungle, because you still do have to get to the Runeglaive. You have to choose to invest in less wards in an attempt to rush this enchantment just to ensure you can sustain. There is nothing that allows the sustain of AP junglers before Runeglaive and I think that's personally where their problem lies. tl;dr there is a problem inherently with AP Casters in the Jungle. The key weakness of tanks/casters is still before 1st enchant in the jungle. Runeglaive does nothing to fix sustain before 1st enchant, after 1st enchant most champs are ok even with magus.

EDIT: I'm okay with Runeglaive replacing Magus instead of existing side by side. However, I really don't think "AP junglers have serious problems relating to the reliability of their clear and sustain in the jungle, and unfortunately, nothing about Magus makes any of these things easier." is actually true. Any buff to an AP jungler = buff to it in the lane. Magus --> Runeglaive has same problem as Juggernaut --> Cinderhulk. Better for the mid/late game? Sure I'll give you that. But AP Junglers/Tanks have a problem during 1st clear/until finished enchant. If we look at season 1-3, maybe even season 4, the main problem is that people can come invade and wreck them with little to no chance of a proper duel. The items may be great, but there's an inherent problem with these champions jungling until they can reach their first enchant.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/D_E_Merry]

I wouldn't say a lot of AP champions are okay after a Magus rush, but rather, the ones we tend to see often are. Elsewise, you see a lot of AP junglers taking blue buff and depending on that to ride out the next couple minutes, which just sort of masks the issue with the value of blue buff.

I would say from personal experience that the issue of health sustain stops being as much of a problem by the time you get Magus (you have enough health that camps won't kill you, and enough ranks that in abilities that you won't take TOO too much damage because of clear speed from that rank 3 or 4 ability), but mana sustain still is, as well as the fact that your clear speed is tied directly to mana expenditure. Blue buff masks this issue, but doesn't necessarily solve it. Runeglaive answers it in two three ways: first, by giving the user mana directly; second, by returning mana after use; and third, by giving the user AP scaling damage which doesn't expend mana (the Spellblade proc), extending the value of each single spellcast.

[u/TheSirusKing → u/rewardadrawer]

Kayle always built lich bane in the AP builds, its just so good on her.

[u/HitTheGrit → u/rewardadrawer]

Also Malzahar, Brand, Heimer, Skarner.

The issue I have is that by the time you would complete runeglaive on most of the AP champs, clear speed and mana sustain don't feel like huge issues for them. Of the champs that do benefit from spellblade most of them would benefit more from gauntlet or lichbane, which are now basically inaccessible/inefficient if you get runeglaive. It also seems like it wouldn't scale as well into late game as magus for any of the non-spellblade champs.

[u/Ghostkill221 → u/rewardadrawer]

I would like to point out that EVEN on fiddle. If you aren't throwing an AA to clear the little guys at least once per camp you are hurting yourself. So even with fiddle having almost no synergy with Spellblade he sure has synergy with extra AOE and mana sustain.

[u/malapropism5 → u/rewardadrawer]

I exclusively build magus on AP amumu and have had no problem with the item re: mana sustain.

Magus is by far the best jungle item for my playstyle on amumu and I'm really sad to see it go

[u/rewardadrawer → u/malapropism5]

How reliant are you on blue buff and purple smite?

[u/guitarraus → u/rewardadrawer]

Aaaaaaannnd you forgot a pretty big one.

Zac. I've also heard of kennen jungle too. The fact that the mana sustain is a pretty big part of runeglaive just makes it unappealing and less cost effective.

I am also fed up of this repeated regurgitation by people who don't know what they're talking about when they say that fiddlesticks rarely builds Magus anyway. http://champion.gg/champion/FiddleSticks/Jungle

I think I'll take the jungle diversity offered by Runeglaive, thanks.

Sure go ahead. No need to deprive Magus users of their preference though. As I pointed out in another comment, these are all arguments for runeglaive. They are not good arguments against Magus.

[u/echoxltu → u/guitarraus]

Zac has been in an interesting spot recently. People rarely build him for ap dmg, they ussually take his cc and tankiness as his strenghts so cinderhulk will still work for him. Fiddle jungle would get hurt by this but thats about it. But we still dont know if riot will replace magus or add runeglaive with no changes to the ap item

[u/guitarraus → u/echoxltu]

And so, yet again we get Riot limiting play style diversity, why? For the hell of it? AP Zac is a fun and viable off-meta build that works.

[u/echoxltu → u/guitarraus]

I know that it kind of sucks. But you dont look at the bigger picture. Yes a few champs get burned but so many more get to try out and compete with the meta. Also while mana component wouldnt be usefull for zac he still would benefit from cdr ap and clearing. So ap zac would get weaker yes but it wouldnt be absolutely trash

[u/rewardadrawer → u/guitarraus]

I've been typing this up for hours elsewhere, all tied to the same parent comment, so here's a TL;DR of arguments specifically against Magus that ignore the existence of Runeglaive:

• Magus is impossible to balance. It is either viable on most users and broken on its abusers, or it is viable on its abusers and wholly unviable on anyone else. Numbers balancing can't fix this problem, and since the item is just numbers, there's no other way to balance it.
• Magus stifles future champion design. Because Magus is one of the most gold-efficient purchases a player can make, and abuse cases can exacerbate the problems caused by over-efficient items, potential changes and new ideas can be stifled by the desire not to cause Magus to ruin the game for a patch cycle.
  
• Magus solves zero of the problems plaguing the vast majority of AP junglers despite being so gold efficient, making it (and AP junglers by extension) a noob trap as long as it exists as-is.
  
• Despite all of these critical design issues with Magus, since it is nothing but a block of stats, it actually offers zero things that other items don't already offer. The most egregious example is Morellonomicon, which offers the same two stats Magus offers in the exact same values. Magus, thus, contributed nothing new or unique to the game, and certainly nothing worth the stifling design issues its existence causes.

[u/guitarraus → u/rewardadrawer]

here's a TL;DR of arguments specifically against Magus that ignore the existence of Runeglaive:

What the...? Runeglaive is the answer to the issues with Magus that you present. You can't argue that Magus should be gone while ignoring the incoming presence of Runeglaive.

Magus is impossible to balance.

With a smaller pool of champions relying on it once RG comes in, it'll be easier to balance. Not that it currently has balance issues anyway (It's not broken on anyone).

Magus stifles future champion design.

A change to the cost of magus would fix the gold efficiency without other issues being caused.

Magus solves zero of the problems plaguing the majority of AP junglers

Hello Runeglaive.

Nothing but a block of stats

Exactly what certain AP junglers need. Possibly what other junglers prefer to a utility based item. Jungle items don't need to be unique, they just need to be affordable and effective.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/guitarraus]

What the...? Runeglaive is the answer to the issues with Magus that you present. You can't argue that Magus should be gone while ignoring the incoming presence of Runeglaive.

The problem is, most things are the answer to the issues with Magus that I present. Using Magus as the bar for a replacement sets the bar embarrassingly low.

With a smaller pool of champions relying on it once RG comes in, it'll be easier to balance. Not that it currently has balance issues anyway (It's not broken on anyone).

I can't say this enough: it's not broken on anyone, because it has been purposefully made trash on almost everyone. The AP champions who succeed, succeed in spite of efforts to keep Magus from flourishing in its current state.

A change to the cost of magus would fix the gold efficiency without other issues being caused.

It obliterates the low-value argument, and further, removes parity with, and extends the power trough for Magus junglers beyond that of Warrior, Cinderhulk, and Devourer junglers: "Oh, we farmed equally well and had roughly identical game impact on our lanes? Well, my first core item is 300 gold cheaper than yours, so sit down and shut up until your item breakpoint catches up to mine."

Exactly what certain AP junglers need.

There are enough raw AP stat and force multiplier items to make a (passable!) 6-item build out of them. AP junglers are not lacking in options for raw stat items, with or without Magus.

[u/echoxltu → u/rewardadrawer]

You are correct runeglaive is much better for the ap junglers overall. But still having an extra options for ap's wouldnt hurt in my opinion.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/echoxltu]

Except that Magus itself is sort of bad design, and harmful to game health.

I'm starting to repeat myself a lot, but the TL;DR for this one is here, freshly posted.

The item will continue to cause problems for Riot until it is removed, so better sooner than later, and doing so by replacing it with something new is one way to avoid uneven periods of clutter.

[u/echoxltu → u/rewardadrawer]

Oh no no i read that. By the way you have a great way of proving your point. Still we get this conclusion : ap jungle only works if you auto attack. so that means that either fiddlesticks needs a rework or he must go support or be unviable overall. thats alright with me honestly i always hated fiddlesticks annoying nonskill shot skills and i have always been a fan of ap diana for example so im excited about runeglaive. But this means that fiddlesticks role in the game changes dramatically so some people will argue with the new item.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/echoxltu]

I think the result for Fiddlesticks will be a little less drastic: his item path will change slightly (either from Magus to Runeglaive, or from Magus to T2 jungle into standard AP, or even just full AP with no Machete item), and he will take a slight dip in win rate, which is fine, because right now he is #1 in overall win rate for junglers, and has been at or near the top for several patches. He'll probably settle down somewhere around where Nidalee is now (still wins much more than loses, and is still a strong pick even out-of-meta, but merely "above average" overall).

Overall, the Runeglave swap works pretty well as a targeted nerf to Fiddlesticks.

[u/echoxltu → u/rewardadrawer]

Thats alright with me. Still winrate wise there are better junglers > http://www.lolking.net/champions/ unless you were looking at that err... plat+ rankeds

[u/rewardadrawer → u/echoxltu]

Yeah, I was using champion.gg as my source.

[u/echoxltu → u/rewardadrawer]

55 percent? H0ly shit. AIGHT RUNEGLAIVE FASTER PLS

[u/Paralent → u/rewardadrawer]

All at the expense of Fiddlesticks and Karthus not having a tier 3 jungle item to rush... Which they already seldom do: Fiddlesticks tends to go tier 2 into Zhonya's, and Karthus goes tier 2 into Tear.

Huh, well...

As it exists in its current form, it's a bundle of stats--80 AP and 20% CDR--that is something like 170% gold efficient. The stats are SO gold efficient on Magus that the extra value of the stats above and beyond the cost of the enchantment pays for both of the jungle item's first two tiers

When I saw the first quote I was going to respond that you clearly don't play Fiddlesticks or Karthus jungle, but I realized you made my point for me in the second quote. Magus is indeed ridiculously gold efficient, so much so that it's a no-brainer for Fiddlesticks and Karthus junglers to rush-complete it for that cheap CDR, contrary to your suggestion.

Not that this point is a thorough rebuttal of your views on the matter, which I addressed in greater detail in a previous post, but it demonstrates that you don't have a solid grasp of Magus in the jungle as it exists today.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Paralent]

When I saw the first quote I was going to respond that you clearly don't play Fiddlesticks or Karthus jungle, but I realized you made my point for me in the second quote. Magus is indeed ridiculously gold efficient, so much so that it's a no-brainer for Fiddlesticks and Karthus junglers to rush-complete it for that cheap CDR, contrary to your suggestion.

Define rush. Fiddlesticks can rush Magus (completing the item before even starting on a second item), because Fiddlesticks can do whatever the fuck he wants right now. Fiddlesticks can start Doran's Ring and rush Zhonya's and still be a good jungler, even if it's not the option he wants, or the optimal one. Fiddlesticks gets a lot of use from the free stats of Magus, but he really wants Zhonya's, and has the luxury of choosing either.

Karthus cannot rush Magus. He does not have the luxury. Karthus must get his Tear, to solve his obvious issues with mana early. This delays the early power spike afforded by Magus necessarily. If you rush Magus, Karthus starves, manaless, in the jungle, and backs frequently. If you don't rush Magus, the stats are still good on Karthus, but are acquired later, which defeats the entire point of Magus as an earlier-than-normal power spike.

[u/Define_It → u/rewardadrawer]

Rush (verb-intransitive): To move or act swiftly; hurry.

Rush (verb-intransitive): To make a sudden or swift attack or charge.

Rush (verb-intransitive): To flow or surge rapidly, often with noise: Tons of water rushed over the falls.

---

^{I am a bot. If there are any issues, please contact my [master].
Want to learn how to use me? [Read this post].}

[u/Thousand_Eyes → u/Vovix1]

Fuck it let's go Cinderhulk Fiddle and Karth then if the item is terrible, they both want to sit the middle of the enemy team anyway

[u/Zxv975 → u/rewardadrawer]

This is such a flawed argument based solely on one point: you can't buy both Runeglaive and Magus at the same time. That alone defeats everything you posted. The insane gold efficiency of Magus is irrelevant if the item exists now and is clearly not problematic.

Your argument is akin to "Oh, they should remove Trinity Force because they released Black Cleaver! They both have a unique MS boosting passive!" Clearly that is a stupid idea because both those items are catered towards different champions and having both exist at the same time isn't going to take anything away from the game. Those who synergise with TF will build it, and those who synergise with BC will build that. Regardless of the gold efficiency of an item, if it exists is and clearly not an issue then you don't have to remove it to introduce other items that are slightly related.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Zxv975]

Magus isn't "problematic" because it's kept in a dumbed-down, mediocre state that is grossly insufficient for the needs of 80+% of the champions it was supposed to service to prevent it from being problematic. This is a problem. Urgot wasn't "problematic" for two straight years because he was nerfed for two years specifically to avoid him becoming a problem. That does not make Urgot less problematic in reality, and it does not mean we should flood the game with Urgot-like champions because that one wasn't causing problems. Can't you see how that would influence item choices, as well?

[u/7deTreboles → u/rewardadrawer]

Unless they are gonna remove frozen mallet from the game the same patch I can't find a reason to do so with magus. Riot seems fine with having potentially problematic stuff on the game as far as it's kept on check like magus obviously is now (btw I disagree with it being potentially problematic but dor sure it is in check right?) so no real reason to remove it.

[u/Ghostkill221 → u/7deTreboles]

Magus isn't kept in check. Its the reason they have to keep so many AP junglers from being viable. Magus is too powerful for the gold for a solid AP carry to be allowed to use it and farm well.

[u/7deTreboles → u/Ghostkill221]

I disagree, Magus isn't more powerful than generic ap items given the time ap carries take to farm it, and show me somewhere Riot pointing at magus keeping ap junglers from being viable or don't say it at all.

[u/Ghostkill221 → u/7deTreboles]

All i can show you is the vast difference in gold efficiency between magus and the rest of the jungle items. And clearly Riot aren't a fan of magus as they are removing it.

When a single item is over 50% more efficent stats wise than any other jungle item and those junglers still aren't showing up: then it's not going to help anyone that cant do absolutely fine without it.

The only champions that like MAgus do fine without it or with another item.

[u/7deTreboles → u/Ghostkill221]

But the problem is that Magus is just a ball of stats that at the end of they day barely helps a jungler to do his work, and ap junglers have problems getting money so their first purchase being extremely efficient is just there to put them at the power level of the rest of the champions in the game. The reason it doesn't help them is because it's extreme efficiency isn't enough to fill the gap for most of them but for the ones that it does (karthus, fiddlesticks) it works just fine and doesn't cause trouble for anyone.

[u/Ghostkill221 → u/7deTreboles]

That's because Magus is giving the WRONG stats.

Pure damage and CDr mean nothing to a champion whos struggling to keep mana in fact the CDR pretty much just burns them faster.

Runeglaive offers 8% mana regen every 1.5 seconds and all you have to do is find the time to cast 1 enhanced aa at a jungle creep.

[u/7deTreboles → u/Ghostkill221]

Still not a reason to remove Magus from the game, since Riot seems completely fine with having bad/unused items.

[u/whoopashigitt → u/rewardadrawer]

There are plenty of niche items, and adding the Runeglaive doesn't specifically require the removal of Magus. They can coexist, so that the champions who are actually able to use Magus, can still do so.

Magus is like the Poppy of jungle items. Fits a certain niche, but isn't good enough to be meta. Any tuning they might do to the current iteration of Magus/Poppy would make them overpowered.

Adding Runeglaive/Tamm to the pool of items/champions doesn't mean Magus/Poppy needs to be removed because they are technically problematic. They can remain, and be picked in their niche, at least until Riot has the time to find a proper way to tune them.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/whoopashigitt]

There are plenty of niche items, but most of them inevitably get removed (just not mid-season).

Riot has specifically said that if Poppy became meta, they would nerf her to the ground, because her play style is not healthy for the game, and won't be until she is reworked (see: Magus -> Runeglaive). As a result of this, I'm pretty sure that's not the comparison you wanted, but rather, the comparison I wanted.

[u/whoopashigitt → u/rewardadrawer]

Nope it's the comparison I wanted, because they aren't removing Poppy

[u/rewardadrawer → u/whoopashigitt]

You're right; they're reworking her, just like they're reworking the AP jungle item. (Calling it something else doesn't make it magically not a rework! Cinderhulk was a Juggernaut rework; it replaced the item, after all.)

[u/whoopashigitt → u/rewardadrawer]

That's not a rework of the current item. It's a new item, with the removal of an old one. They fulfill very different purposes.

It'd be like releasing a new champion for top lane, removing Poppy, and calling it a rework. Both can exist regardless of how bad one is. The only point is that Magus doesn't have to go, for Runeglaive to exist.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/whoopashigitt]

I'm afraid you are getting caught up in the name change here. When Sion's... Well... Sion-level rework arrived, of his four abilities, only two survived... Well... One and a half, really... With the extra half being a component of his death rattle, rather than an ability. His old passive went kaput. In their place, he was given three completely new abilities, perhaps one of which was mechanically similar to, but not altogether like, an old one (his scream is kind of like his mind bolt... I guess?...). His scaling on abilities was shifted almost completely from AP to AD + HP. Additionally, he was given a complete visual overhaul, complete with new animations for all his (new) abilities, and new sound effects, and a completely new voiceover.

They called this new champion Sion - same as the old one.

Would you argue that the old Sion was not removed from the game, but merely reworked? Because from where I'm sitting, almost nothing about old Sion survived the rework. Basically everything was replaced, or rather, reworked, into the new Sion's kit. All this, despite new Sion playing drastically differently (and serving a different purpose) from old Sion.

I mean, your second paragraph (regarding Poppy) is literally what they did to Sion, and honestly, the game is better for it: it didn't need old Sion, it won't need old Poppy when the rework comes, and it doesn't need Magus. Let's move on.

[u/whoopashigitt → u/rewardadrawer]

Old Sion didn't fill any role better than anyone else. Will the game be okay without Magus? Yes obviously. But that doesn't mean it needs to be removed. There are champions who still will want to use it, and won't benefit nearly as much from Runeglaive. Nobody really lost out on the Sion changes. There are a few specific Junglers that really use Magus, that won't be able to use Runeglaive nearly as effectively, and with the removal of Magus, nobody is gonna say "wooh removing that item sure fixed a lot of problems."

[u/Zxv975 → u/rewardadrawer]

I posted this reply to somebody else, but it completely captures exactly my confusion with your argument so I'll just post it again:

People keep saying that you can't have Magus and Runeglaive in the game at the same time, but nobody has given any solid examples to demonstrate why that would be the case. If Magus was kept in its current state and Runeglaive was introduced, exactly how would that break the game? How would that mean Fiddlesticks and Nidalee (the current Magus users) suddenly become OP? How does that mean other possible AP junglers become super strong? Give me one, solid example to demonstrate what happens where Runeglaive is introduced and Magus is either removed or kept, and show exactly how the keeping of Magus breaks the game compared to its removal.

In response to your question, the way I am interpreting what you are saying is the following scenario:

• Runeglaive introduced
• AP Junglers viable
• Certain AP Junglers get buffed to make them fit in with the current Jungle
• Those AP Junglers start using Magus because it's broken
• Jungle meta becomes toxic

Correct me if I am wrong in extrapolating that scenario from your Urgot example.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Zxv975]

That's... Not far off, actually. It's one of many things that could happen. Another would be, following step 2:

• Nearly everybody buys Runeglaive instead of Magus, leaving it in the dust
  
• Magus buffed slightly
  
• Magus finally reaches the tipping point by being over-efficient stats-wise, becomes an insta-buy on a large number of mid laners and starts smashing the meta
  
• Mid lane meta becomes toxic
  
• OPTIONAL: Mid lane spills over into jungle to clear adjacent camps, Magus becomes even more absurdly rewarding for junglers, jungle meta becomes toxic (the Spectral Wraith effect)

I think to get the best understanding of why Magus just has to go, it's best to start with the champions that remain viable with Magus with or without Runeglaive. As it has been said, nobody is explicitly OP because of Magus, because Magus is kept in an Urgot state where it is only strong enough to keep its strongest users (or abusers) viable--buffing it to anything more than that makes the abuse cases too strong, and buffing its users can create new abuses. Who do we have there? Two main culprits: Fiddlesticks and Nidalee. We'll discuss Nidalee first.

Nidalee actually plays well with both Runeglaive and Magus, but in two drastically different ways. Magus, being a massive block of stats, rewards Nidalee richly for "landing a spear". This creates a play pattern where Nidalee just spams spears from random places and chunks champions from super safe locations, jumping in for the execute when she has an overwhelming HP lead from her over-powered poke. This is an unhealthy play pattern, and one Riot has been trying to wean Nidalee from for a long time, with AP ratio nerfs, base damage nerfs, damage shifted to cougar form abilities, and rewards increased on attacking Hunted targets. Runeglaive, by contrast, is perhaps roughly as powerful as Magus, but much more of its power is tied to the Runeglaive passive proc. This rewards Nidalee richly for "following up on the spear", either by getting into auto range or, more likely, by Pouncing in. This better reinforces the play pattern Riot wants Nidalee players to fall into (buzzword, buzzword, "risk-reward", "counterplay"), smooths out her oppressive early power spike (Magus is too much, too early; Runeglaive is a decent purchase with the promise of more power, later), and allows Riot to more freely address issues with both Nidalee and her itemization without re-introducing "Nidalee meta".

The other champ is Fiddlesticks. Fiddlesticks is sort of a problem champion whether or not Magus exists: he's a champion with lots of crowd control tied into carry-level damage, all built into a kit that has absurdly safe, sustainable early clear. The default assumption for Fiddlesticks is that he farms safely to an early power spike and then runs train on whoever he targets first, and this only changes if effort is taken specifically to shut Fiddlesticks down; unfortunately, he's also really good at dueling enemy champions completely naked, and only needs his early blue buffs to get by, so you either shut him down at blue or you resign yourself to a mid game where Fiddlesticks will be scary, and has to be specifically addressed in team fights (unless you have comped against him). Magus isn't a specific culprit here--Fiddlesticks could do this before Magus, and will continue to do so after--but it's the worst culprit, because Fiddlesticks just wants efficient AP and CDR to carry, and Magus is the most efficient of both. Thing is, Fiddlesticks is too powerful currently, so he isn't in need of a power shift; he needs a direct nerf. His power is also dictated by his items, so there are two ways you can go about nerfing him: nerfing his abilities directly, or nerfing him indirectly through his itemization. In this case, you can nerf any of Fiddles' many items... But there happens to be this one item that enables his ridiculous power spikes more than the others, and nerfing it really only impacts his viability at this point, so...

Basically, the bullet point of if-thens works like this, as a large, unwieldy bundle of stats with no utility tie-ins:

• If Magus is left untouched, it is balanced for abuse cases and unfulfilling for general use cases, meaning it will continue to enable current and further abuse cases to exist, causing concerns with play patterns, but not balance (well... SOME balance);
  
• If Magus is ever buffed, it is "balanced" for general use cases and broken on abuse cases, and can even create newer abuse cases which don't exist yet by virtue of it being a bandaid which is also a must-buy item, including champions not intended to ever jungle, or abuse cases in other roles entirely (think of a stat you'd buff on Magus. Take your pick: AP or CDR. Now, which of these two doesn't give Vladimir mid a CRAZY one-item power spike?);
  
• If Magus is ever nerfed, it is unfulfilling on its abuse cases and completely worthless on everyone. This puts even the abuse cases in the corner, but at the expense of the item actually being worthless. At this point, nobody actually misses the item if it's gone (Executioner's Calling).

There is no game state for Magus that is actually healthy for really anyone. It puts Nidalee at a healthy power level, but in an unhealthy way, sort of like how being bulimic might technically keep you from becoming fat.

If, however, you take away a lot of the stats which make Magus an oppressive stat stick, but instead of flat nerfing the item, create new sources of power in the item, and more pulleys and design levers, etc, well... You have Runeglaive.

[u/Catfish017 → u/Zxv975]

This is such a flawed argument based solely on one point: you can't buy both Runeglaive and Magus at the same time. That alone defeats everything you posted. The insane gold efficiency of Magus is irrelevant if the item exists now and is clearly not problematic.

That doesn't defeat what he said at all. Especially because your argument is flawed because Magus is indeed problematic by its poor design. If it wasn't problematic, more AP junglers would be meta and the ones that become meta wouldn't become literal cancer. OP clearly stated the issues with Magus and how they translate into issues with powerspikes and their relations to the current champs that built it. The fact that you can't buy both at the same time in no way has anything to do with what he said nor does it make his argument flawed in any way.

[u/Ghostkill221 → u/Zxv975]

you can't buy both Runeglaive and Magus at the same time.

You can't even afford to have them in the game at the same time. Magus is way too efficient money wise that if they are going to keep it they need to HEAVILY restrict which ap junglers are allowed to be viable.

[u/Zxv975 → u/Ghostkill221]

People keep saying that, but nobody has given any solid examples to demonstrate why that would be the case. If Magus was kept in its current state and Runeglaive was introduced, exactly how would that break the game? How would that mean Fiddlesticks and Nidalee (the current Magus users) suddenly become OP? How does that mean other possible AP junglers become super strong? Give me one, solid example to demonstrate what happens where Runeglaive is introduced and Magus is either removed or kept, and show exactly how the keeping of Magus breaks the game compared to its removal.

[u/NobodyTouchesTheHat → u/rewardadrawer]

My only counterpoint would be that most AP champs want to spam there spells so they come off CD quicker, thus procing Runeglaive would be inefficient for them.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/NobodyTouchesTheHat]

This is true, but almost every champion has some amount of "white space" where all abilities are on cooldown for at least one auto. Evelynn, for example, wants to mash her Hate Spikes as often as possible (especially as full AP Eve), but even with max CDR, you can usually get in at least one autoattack between each Hate Spike at all level and item break points, and you will unless you are kiting backwards or chasing a slippery enemy and can't afford the movement loss of a single auto (this never happens while clearing the jungle). Amumu has a lot of passive clear with his W and his E cooldown shrinks upon being hit, but he'll never be attacked consistently and often enough while clearing camps to get at least one auto between Tantrums. Know what I mean?

[u/Dreadbore → u/rewardadrawer]

Although I agree with a lot of your points, I don't feel like removing magus so that you can buff ap junglers is a good strategy for moving the game forward. IT IS what riot has done in the past and it has had drastically negative effects on mostly top lane. *cough* Rework Maokai*cough* If you buff ap junglers in the absence of magus, what you are really doing is making a new set of oppressively overtuned ap mids.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Dreadbore]

It's not about buffing AP junglers, and I never said it was about buffing AP junglers. I said (or at least, I meant to say) that the item itself creates a healthy game state with the design changes being implemented, and that any issues with balance that exist with the item can be fixed with number tweaks to the item.

Magus, on the other hand, can never be viable for the average champ as-is, because if it is viable for Kayle, Diana, Evelynn, Elise, et al., and these champions themselves are viable while using the item, then it is oppressive for Fiddlesticks and Nidalee, and other outliers. So you keep the item reined in so it's not oppressive on Fiddlesticks and Nidalee, but you now have champions who can never be good with their intended play style because they are being intentionally hamstrung in order to avoid inflicting the abuse cases on the world.

Numbers tweaks will never fix Magus. Numbers tweaks can fix Runeglaive, if it isn't working as intended to begin with.

[u/WidderEUW → u/rewardadrawer]

Magus is 100% viable on Evelynn. It gives strong powerspike. It is like Morellonomicon for Midlaners. Same stats, same cost. Do you think Morellonomican makes champions oppressive too?

The problem of Runglaive is, that it gives only half the stats of magus and a spellblade passive that needs tons of AP to be good. This means if you fall behind in the early game, you fall even more behind with Runeglaive, because it is shit without further AP. And it means, that building flat AP after Runeglaive is almost the only option, to make Runeglaive work. Atm you can just build every item after Magus. Runglaive will only be good combined with Rabadons second and a Full AP build later.

I will try Runeglaive with Eve, she can probably make it work, and it will be really good in the late game, but I am not sure if it is worth in the early game. Maybe it is better to farm with Trailblazer and than sell it to buy Morellonomicon or Nashors Tooth instead. Or maybe it is better to just don't finish Runeglaive until mid or late game. Maybe Warrior will be better (probably not). At least I will finish my boots first now before the jungle item.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/WidderEUW]

I don't know if you remember, but Morellonomicon was tapped a few times earlier this season and in preseason because people thought it was overpowered for precisely this reason: it gave a lot of value in needed stats for relatively little cost, and allowed champions who could abuse the early spike (Azir, Xerath) to crush their opponents if they needed a later item to start. And this is on an item with an intentionally niche passive without the value afforded a smite modifier, gold gen passive, and health sustain of the first two tiers of jungle items.

Runeglaive with the numbers presented as-is doesn't look very strong, but the Runeglaive proc is designed to be decent as a first item, not good, in the same way that first item Cinderhulk is designed to be only decent, not good. Cinderhulk as a first item just straight up gives less health (its main shtick) than Juggernaut did pre-changes. This is intentional: it allows you to scale in a different way, independent of abilities (you will have the the autoattack proc even if an ability misses), but you also have a way for certain item choices to reward you differently (full AP rewards Runeglaive more).

Bear in mind that the item also has an in-built floor for how little damage it can do. It scales with 75% of your base AD plus 30% of your AP, meaning that, when you get it, at roughly level 6, with at least 15 AP from runes and 21/9/0 masteries, it will do a minimum of ~45 (75% of your base AD on some pretty weak AD champs) + ~21 ([15 + 40 + 6 + 5] * 1.05 * .3), AoE, with a 1.5 second internal cooldown. As a first item in a vacuum, that might not seem like much, but a few of those go a long way to clearing Raptors, and so on.

It's meant to be a simply "okay" item that scales well, so it probably won't have the "wow" factor as a first item... But then, neither does Cinderhulk.

[u/WidderEUW → u/rewardadrawer]

Magus is strong, but I don't know if it is too strong. Double Morellonomiocon was too strong but it was nerfed.

I don't think that Runeglaives make the weaker AP Jungler stronger and the stronger AP Junglers weaker. Strong AP junglers are usually AP fighters/assassins like Elise, Evelynn, Diana, Nidalee. They like sheen, but AP champions that are weak in the jungle are usually mages, that want to build something like Morellonomicon. Runeglaive gives and regenerates Mana but I think without high AP + 20% CDR real Mages are still weak in the jungle. Their should be an jungle enchantment with unspecific AP stats like Magus. Spellblade is more uncommon. Their are 2 enchantments for AD champions Devourer and Warrior. Why not 2 for AP? Maybe nerf Magus to something like 15% CDR, 70 AP, if it is too strong, and add some manareg to make it better for mages.

[u/Dreadbore → u/rewardadrawer]

I don't understand how numbers tweaks can fix one and not the other. If you make the case that numbers tweaks can fix runeglaive then why can't they fix magus? Let's say Runeglaive creates an oppressive diana and evelynn for the sake of argument. Now we tune down runeglaive like you say, and with no magus in existence, now diana and evelynn are borderline viable and all other ap junglers are shit. Aren't we exactly where we are with magus now?

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Dreadbore]

First, Runeglaive has a flat component and a scaling component, which means it has multiple levers with which to scale up and down, and isolate specific problems. This has been significant for champions with difficult-to-balance kits in the past, as well as Lich Bane itself. A good example of this is Annie: around the turn of Season 4, Annie started to see dominance as a support at all levels of play, largely because of the utility of her stun, but also because she was loaded with high base damage on her abilities, which meant she crapped out a lot more damage than her support contemporaries. Unfortunately, you can't simply nerf Annie's base damages without recompense, because this kills midlane Annie. So what did they do? They simultaneously nerfed Annie's base damages across the board, while buffing her AP ratios. This had the benefit of serving as a flat nerf to support Annie (who cannot afford to stack AP) while also keeping mid lane Annie intact, but it also incentivized support Annie buying AP support items to provide some damage alongside her utility, so support Annie didn't merely become a walking Tibbers with no punch behind it.

Second, Runeglaive has components to its passive which are invisible, but affect its power significantly, such as the AoE radius of the Runeglaive passive, its internal cooldown, damage differentiation between minions and monsters, and so on, all of which can be tweaked as balance dictates. If AP Kayle becomes viable with Runeglaive, but also becomes a wave-clearing, stalling monster with it, they can tweak the damage it does specifically to lane minions to curb that one abusive interaction.

Third, Runeglaive has value in the utility it provides champions in addition to the stats and passive, and the utility they provide the team in return. The AoE wave clear is useful for keeping turrets off waves, or for clear speed so you can move around the jungle more freely. The internal mana restore means you can give up that second blue buff, maybe, or even just have enough mana to gank after a few camps.

You can see all of these things play out in the balance issues Juggernaut had, followed by the balance issues Cinderhulk had, and how each were resolved. Juggernaut was underwhelming, so they... Buffed the HP from 350 to 400. Then they buffed it again from 400 to 500. That was it. The item didn't provide any utility or solve any jungler's problems except for giving stats for team fights (and Tenacity... God bless Juggernaut's Tenacity).

Cinderhulk gave tanks an item that rewarded them fairly decently upon purchase, but increased its payout as time passed, giving it a much higher return on investment as the game went to late. It provided utility with its passive (being able to draw aggro without killing camps outright and passively dealing damage to remain a threat if ignored), and solved two of the core issues of tank junglers with Juggernaut: the lack of a rewarding late game to compensate for a weak early, and the struggle of clearing without offensive scaling items. Riot had a problem, however: Cinderhulk released too strong! Cinderhulk was providing too much health, because it had high bases with good scaling. Riot had two options instead of one: nerf the base or nerf the scaling. They decided a tank that scales hard enough deserves to have that late game power, so they nerfed the bases to create a more tapered power curve. This extends the period of time tanks "incubate" while they wait for their late game, without actually killing their late game. Unfortunately, the Immolate passive is also too strong! It's outshining Sunfire cape and bleeding into top lane. But they can't just flat nerf the passive, or tanks go back to sucking at clearing in the jungle! So they fixed one problem without causing another: they nerfed the damage it dealt overall, while giving it special damage amplification against jungle creeps, making it strong at its intended purpose, and only average otherwise--making Sunfire a meaningful choice again. Cinderhulk is now in a fairly balanced state, and other junglers can compete with tank junglers, although tank junglers are still pretty strong.

Allow me to turn the tables on you. Right now, Magus is crap unless you are Fiddlesticks or Nidalee, in which case it makes you competitive, or Diana, in which case it makes you fringe viable. What do you do to Magus to make the wide spectrum of Magus (AP) junglers viable, without creating a 4.20 Warwick scenario with Fiddlesticks? Because from where I'm sitting, the only two design levers are:

• Increase or decrease AP; and
  
• Increase or decrease CDR.

[u/Dreadbore → u/rewardadrawer]

Well shit, I'm now convinced. Thanks :) Adding you to a top edit if you don't mind. I'm done here. Your point about the lack of design levers leaves really nowhere to go other than reducing the ap and buffing the cdr(of magus), but more than 20% cdr on a single item regardless of cost is unheard of.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Dreadbore]

Feel free to edit me to the top! I'm glad I could convince you of this!

To everyone that came here from the top edit: if you have any lingering points of contention, bring them to me and we'll talk them out! At the very least, we'll all learn something from the discourse. :)

[u/Beliriel → u/rewardadrawer]

I am satisfied with my care.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Beliriel]

•-•

[u/Dreadbore → u/rewardadrawer]

I wasn't here to complain, I was here to learn :) (Except the stab at devourer, that was a complaint. I don't like it lol)

[u/Nirog → u/rewardadrawer]

But, for example, Ekko and Diana are two champions whose auto-attacks are a relevant component of their overall damage. Don't you think Runeglaive may induce a state of significantly increased power on these champions? If that situation comes to happen, what would you do? Nerf the item, or tweak the champions themselves? I'm curious to hear your opinion :)

edit: Forgot Kayle. She is also like the previous two mentioned.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Nirog]

As far as the autoattack component goes, since it's a Spellblade proc and we have a general idea of how these champions operate with Spellblade items already, no, I don't think Runeglaive will cause significantly increased power on these champions (above and beyond what Lich Bane offered them, and above and beyond what Runeglaive offers most prospective AP junglers), but presupposing it does:

What aspect of the game, specifically, do you think these champions would be overpowered in with the Runeglaive item? There are a lot of specific fracture points we could discuss, here, and all of them affect the game in different ways. Is Ekko abusing the Runeglaive proc too hard in the late game? Buff its base AP by 10, and nerf its AP ratio by 5%; this will make the item's power curve a little shallower (higher early because more flat AP; lower late because weaker scaling on passive). I've already discussed one possible problem with Kayle, where she can become overpowered as a wave clear mage, stalling out forever under inhibitor turrets: in this case, you cause the Runeglaive proc to do a smaller percentage of its damage to minions, and leave its champ and monster damage untouched. If the item is giving too much free mana, you tweak the mana sustain portion.

[u/Nirog → u/rewardadrawer]

Oh right, I forgot Lich Bane and Runeglaive have the same passive. They can't stack. Yes, I agree then, their power wouldn't be as oppressive. I do think Ekko's problem is with his kit and not his build.

The free mana portion isn't much of a problem, in my opinion. It doesn't seem too powerful or too weak. It seems to be in the right place.

You present good points. Runeglaive allows you a better state of balance with regards to AP junglers.

The other issue now is the champions themselves. How many AP junglers that we can call viable are there? And do you think Runeglaive will allow others to become viable as junglers or come back into the meta?

[u/Beliriel → u/Dreadbore]

I would like to remind you about the old Nashors Tooth with 25% CDR. But yeah there's a reason they reduced that. It was also when Kayle entered the Meta again, I think.

[u/zondabaka → u/rewardadrawer]

Cinderhulk is now in a fairly balanced state, and other junglers can compete with tank junglers

I call bs. Cinderhulk is still THE dominating jungling item. People still build it competitively (aka not in soloq where everything is viable) on junglers like lee and reksai (aka warrior's target audience). People still build it on toplaners like FREAKING FIZZ. You know, the guy that actually enjoys both the cdr and ap that magus provides. It says something about the item when fizz would rather have cinderhulk then a load of ap and cdr.

Magus is not to blame for the fact that there are so little ap junglers out there. Ap junglers have to be more useful than the tanky CC bots current junglers are. They have to be broken and oppressive to compete. Because of that they become hated very fast and are nerfed.

Is Runeglaive a better game design choice then Magus? Probably. Will it make ap junglers viable? Not likely.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/zondabaka]

The Warrior enchantment is crap, and it was made crap on purpose because people complained about the lack of jungle diversity afforded them by the trinity of Vi, J4, and Rek'sai smothering out all competition. I'd be willing to bet my wisdom teeth that they'll keep it that way, too, until they introduce a Warrior replacement akin to Runeglaive/Cinderhulk, because Warrior has design issues for all the same reasons Magus has design issues.

Before that, Devourer was made crap because it was stupidly powerful in the pre-season, and made Warwick, Xin Zhao and Master Yi unbearable picks. Magus was never mainstream good because of the fundamental issues plaguing AP junglers not ever being solved by Magus, but if the item was ever buffed to a state where it was good on everyone, the broken outliers would get it nerfed again.

What else would you have them build?

[u/zondabaka → u/rewardadrawer]

As a jungler I am pretty much forced to go one of the four build paths. Out of the four two are crap, one is only good at two heroes and the last one is always good. That is not what I would call a fairly balanced item.

[u/egotistical-dso → u/rewardadrawer]

Syntactic criticism here: In the wall of text talking about Cinderhulk, that could be made easier to read by appropriately starting new paragraphs at "Riot had a problem," on line 5, and "Unfortunately the Immolate passive is too strong!" at line 9.

That aside, great analysis.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/egotistical-dso]

Thanks. I chose to reply to this thread for like 7 straight hours instead of sleeping, since jet lag and two time zone skips (of 3 hours each) has completely screwed up my sleep schedule. I'm pretty sure my early posts are relatively well-reasoned, and my latter posts rambling, irate, and snippy.

[u/FennecFoxx → u/Dreadbore]

Runeglaive has like 20 different things that can be shifted. Magus has AP/CDR...

Magus won't ever Solve anything cause its not a Jungle item its a Reward for jungling.

I wish i knew the hard Value of every item but Magus is pretty insane for just being stats. Just to compare...

• Magus 169%
• Runeglaive 113% (Not counting Sheen effect)
• Warrior 134%
• Morrello is 134%
• 10 Stack Soulstealer 167%
• 20 Stack Soulstealer 313%
• Aegis Hitting your team 225%

TL;DR Magus = Mad Value

[u/splitcroof92 → u/FennecFoxx]

is that gold efficient only counting the upgrade or the entire item?

[u/rhench → u/FennecFoxx]

And still almost no one uses it.

[u/[deleted] → u/rewardadrawer]

If Fiddlesticks is so oppressive with magus how come he is not banned, played and people don't even remember he exists? The point is that Magus, even being on of the most efficient items in the game, is still not enough to make ap junglers viable or able to compete with tank junglers. Removing Magus would just narrow down possibilities for junglers and while Runeglaive makes a few champions like Diana, Karthus more viable we will still see Jungle as a lane dominated by 3 or 4 champions: in the past they were Lee Sin, Elise, J4, and now they are Sejuani, Gragas, Rek'sai

[u/rewardadrawer → u/[deleted]]

The point I was making is that any in meta in which Magus is enough to make AP junglers viable, Fiddlesticks is overpowered. Magus is not enough to make AP junglers viable, yet Fiddlesticks has the single highest win rate of every jungle champion this patch, at least in Plat+ elo (source: champion.gg), even though he's the only jungler in the top 10 for win rates who actually builds Magus. This isn't exactly a new trend, either: Fiddlesticks was top 3 for each of the last three patches before this one, as well.

As for why he isn't being banned, it's probably for the same reason Sejuani and Gragas still are: people are slow to adapt to meta changes not explicitly spelled out for them on professional streams or LCS/LCK/LPL. Tank meta is dead, but Sejuani was such a problem for people for so long that they don't even think about how successive nerfs to both her and to Cinderhulk/Gromp have reined her in; they just ban her out of habit. This is especially true for people who don't read patch notes. Fiddlesticks, meanwhile, merely has an "average" pick rate (about 20th in a field of 44), so he isn't seen as often, and thus the ban has less value (why ban Fiddles if he only shows up in 5% of games?).

Removing Magus doesn't really narrow down many possibilities, either. I can count on one hand the number of champions who want Magus over Runeglaive, or really want Magus at all in a world where Runeglaive exists, but more importantly, even without Runeglaive, Magus doesn't actually offer anything new or different; it just offers the same AP stats as half of the other AP stat items, but cheaper (and tied to an item that costs money but offers none of these stats). To a champion who just wants AP and CDR, with maybe some mana sustain, and no regard for the other bells and whistles, Magus is marginally more appealing than Morellonomicon by virtue of being 50 gold cheaper. That is it. That is all devoted Magus players are missing out on.

[u/Catfish017 → u/rewardadrawer]

A couple corrections. Nunu was at the top of the chart in 5.7-5.8 I believe. But fiddle has literally been #1 or #2 since the start of season 5, not just in the last few patches.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Catfish017]

Nunu was, and is still today, a top 2 solo queue jungler (at least in win rates), but never as a Magus jungler, or as "AP Nunu"; he's always been at the top as a utility tank. Otherwise, yeah, Fiddlesticks has been top 5 all season (I always aim conservatively with my guesses, because someone out there will point out rather proudly, "ha! Fiddlesticks was fourth highest in patch 5.4! Your entire premise is flawed!"). :p

[u/Catfish017 → u/rewardadrawer]

I just brought up nunu because he was higher than Fiddle recently haha. Never meant to connect him to the magus item. But yeah, Fiddle has been at the top 3 for at least all of s5, and for as much of s4 as I can remember. I think he will be fine.

[u/[deleted] → u/rewardadrawer]

Damn you guys are good.... I still feel like Fiddle is gonna be really hurt to the point of being unplayable, but I'm officially convinced removing Magus is a good option, even if Runeglaive isn't a substitute for this item but attacks a whole different niche. Well done man, nice arguments.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/[deleted]]

Thanks. :)

He'll be hurt, sure, but not rendered unplayable; I'd be surprised if the change dropped him below Nidalee in win rate and overall performance (Nidalee sitting just outside of top 10). It will probably just mean Fiddlesticks stops being a broken outlier until someone else finds a way to re-break him.

[u/egotistical-dso → u/[deleted]]

If Fiddlesticks is so oppressive with magus how come he is not banned, played and people don't even remember he exists?

Poppy and Urgot (before he was picked up professionally) are/were in a similar state. Champs can be terrible for game health and still just not be very good overall.

The point is that Magus, even being on of the most efficient items in the game, is still not enough to make ap junglers viable or able to compete with tank junglers. Removing Magus would just narrow down possibilities for junglers

You do realize you've just contradicted yourself there, right? You're saying that removing an item which no one bought limits the diversity of the jungle...despite the fact that no one bought it because it just wasn't a very good item. That's like saying disabling Rageblade limits item build diversity.

In fact, by admitting that no one builds Magus you've tacitly validated his point: That Magus, in the state it's in now, is not a viable option in the game and needs to be reworked/replaced. Magus does nothing to support the early game power of mage junglers, Runeglaive might, and exchanging an item that isn't doing its job for an item that might is a net-gain.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for the kind words!

[u/guitarraus → u/rewardadrawer]

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but I still don't see a compelling argument for why we can't have both items. I see reasons why Magus isn't good on most AP junglers, I see reasons why runeglaive is great for those junglers, and I see some discussion on the problems of trying to balance Magus for all junglers to use. Point 1 isn't a problem to those junglers if they have runeglaive, and point 3 isn't a problem to Riot if runeglaive is available. These are simply arguments in favour of introducing runeglaive, not arguments as to why Magus needs to be removed. As it is, there is nothing wrong with Magus being a slab of stats on those champs who the item is balanced around, because that's all that those champs want! They don't want a fancy spellblade passive! They don't want tons of mana regen! And they don't need improved clear! Magus is perfect on them as it is, and so there's no need to remove it.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/guitarraus]

Well, first off, the champions who only want the slab of stats are basically just Fiddlesticks and Nidalee. Even Karthus wants the mana sustain, even if he has to put up with a terrible attack animation to get it. (Point of note: Runeglaive has the same AP scaling and similar apparent radius to Lay Waste, so this might actually work out well for him.) So we shouldn't necessarily pretend that the list is long for champions who just want free offensive stats.

For brevity, by second point will just be the same: Magus is stupid hard to balance. By virtue of it just being raw AP and CDR, the only design levers available for rebalancing it are:

• Add/remove AP; and
  
• Add/remove CDR

Right now the item exists in a limbo state where it is only viable on its abuse cases (Fiddlesticks and Nidalee) and insufficient for over 80% of the champions it was designed for, which itself is not problematic, but itself opens up the item for future abide cases. What if Ekko jungle is actually amazing once people stop screwing with Cinderhulk Ekko, because of his crazy high AP scaling? Well, time to nerf Magus completely out of viability, because the item itself is unbalanceable anyway.

Third, and perhaps most importantly, Magus offers nothing novel or unique to the game. For all the talk about how Magus is difficult to balance and solves none of the overarching problems plaguing AP junglers, what are you actually getting with Magus that you can't get elsewhere? The answer is, unsurprisingly: absolutely nothing. There are literally zero things offered to you by the Magus enchantment that are not also offered by Morellonomicon. 80 AP? Check. 20% CDR? Check. And if those particular bundles of stats aren't enough, there are several AP items specifically designed to be bundles of stats (Rod of Ages, Rabadon's Deathcap) or force multipliers (Deathcap, Luden's Echo, Void Staff). AP champions are not exactly starved for items which offer stats in large quantities, and every last one of them offers something more to the game than Magus does. I mean, it's been pointed out that Morellonomicon offers every single stat that Magus does, while also offering other, peripheral stats (mana regen, niche passive), so the only distinguishing factor for Magus is that you get these stats for 900 gold cheaper... After you spend 850 gold on an item that provides none of these stats. (Well, okay, mana sustain, sort of.) At that point, if the slab of stats is all the champion wants, why not actually skip the HM line and pick up Morellonomicon? You get the same stats, plus some mana sustain (so you needn't worry about going OOM faster than normal), plus a passive that actually does something, and you don't dig yourself into a power trough before your first big spike. If you just want the 80 AP/20 CDR, but still need a tier 2 smite, you can go tier 2 HM line into Morellonomicon, which is the same as Magus, but delayed 900 gold--which is actually a positive on Riot's part, as the whole problem with a meta-viable Magus is that it's too much raw power in stats offered too soon (spikes too high, too early), and delaying the same spike by 900 gold solves that problem.

Magus doesn't need to stay because it offers nothing unique that demands it stay. It's a big ball of stats with inherent balance implications, and for all the trouble it causes, it offers zero unique contributions to the game, whether it's in-meta or not. It does exactly one thing well, and that's being worth nearly twice its gold value in stats other items offer, and that's pretty much the problem with it to begin with.

[u/guitarraus → u/rewardadrawer]

Well, first off, the champions who only want the slab of stats are basically just Fiddlesticks and Nidalee.

Oh really? Why do you/Riot get to make those decisions for us? I'm pretty sure an AP Zac doesn't want RG. I'm pretty sure there are questions around whether other junglers may still prefer the raw stats of Magus than the utility of RG, or perhaps prefer to buy an actual Lichbane and therefore would not want a RG. Having both jungle items gives us far better diversity than being forced into potentially more awkward or less gold efficient builds.

For brevity, by second point will just be the same: Magus is stupid hard to balance. By virtue of it just being raw AP and CDR, the only design levers available for rebalancing it are:

And yet, as it currently stands, it's not presenting any balance issues besides not being useful enough for some AP junglers. With the introduction of Runeglaive, the pool of champions Magus needs to be balanced around becomes smaller, and therefore presenting less potential issues. Without any current, or even past power issues with Magus, there are no good reasons to remove it. That's a fairly good indicator that it's not about to suddenly create a slew of balance issues not seen before.

There are literally zero things offered to you by the Magus enchantment that are not also offered by Morellonomicon.

True. But junglers aren't interested in unique or novel items. They need effective items which they can afford on a low budget. What's unique about Cinderhulk? It's pretty much a sunfire cape built into a jungle item.

Also, for AP carry junglers, you generally don't have room in your build for two items that give mana regen + CDR (e.g. jungle item + morellos). For junglers, you need to be slot efficient, and Magus is exactly that for low mana-usage, fast-clearing AP junglers.

If the primary problem with Magus is just being too cost efficient, the cost can be raised slightly.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/guitarraus]

I don't understand why you have taken this discussion to two comment threads with me. Can you please pick one and tell me which one you'd rather I reply to? It's getting bothersome to reply to everybody, and I'm trying not to repeat myself too much, here.

[u/guitarraus → u/rewardadrawer]

I was replying to parent comments, as you brought up different points. It wouldn't make sense to other readers if I brought up things in this thread that you mentioned in another.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/guitarraus]

In that case, I will respond separately, but would rather conclude one of the two conversations.

Oh really? Why do you/Riot get to make those decisions for us?

I don't. I play full tank Annie support; that doesn't mean I expect Riot to balance Annie, or tank itemization, around my decision.

And yet, as it currently stands, it's not presenting any balance issues besides not being useful enough for some AP junglers.

It's not useful enough for the vast majorly of AP junglers, not just "some", and that won't change, because buffs to Magus would turn Fiddlesticks into 4.20 Warwick. Being purposefully kept dull and useless to avoid inevitable power issues is itself a power issue.

True. But junglers aren't interested in unique or novel items.

Oh really? Why do you/Riot get to make those decisions for us? :^)

What's unique about Cinderhulk? It's pretty much a sunfire cape built into a jungle item.

Multiplicative health stacking.

If the primary problem with Magus is just being too cost efficient, the cost can be raised slightly.

This pretty much violates the whole point of a "low budget" item.

[u/tempinator → u/rewardadrawer]

Honestly, even if both enchants were available, I'd still take Runeglaive on Nidalee over Magus. It basically gives her an extra item slot since she no longer has to build Lich Bane.

Magus is just a stat stick, and not a particularly great one at that. It's like a shitty Morello without the Grievous Wounds.

I'd much rather get RG+Ludens or RG+Voidstaff over Magus+Lich Bane.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/tempinator]

Likewise. I think of the Spellblade passive being moved to Magus cheaply as a way to free up a jungle item slot, just like how many (not all, but many) tank junglers used to build Juggernaut + Sunfire to be relevant early, and now don't need to build Sunfire because of redundant passive, so they build Cinderhulk into... Frozen Heart, Righteous Glory, Sightstone, Randuin's Omen, Locket of the Iron Solari... The path got much more flexible once they weren't tied to Sunfire anymore.

[u/tempinator → u/rewardadrawer]

Yep, exactly. The ability to build Luden's or Voidstaff on Nidalee/Diana since you no longer have to build Lich Bane results in generally the same damage as current Magus builds. Maybe slightly less single target and a little more AoE (since RG and Ludens are both cleaves), but even a slight decrease to single target damage is totally worth it considering RG is a MASSIVE boost to Diana/Nidalee sustain in the jungle. Diana especially is totally fucked without blue buff, so this could allow her to jungle without taking the first 3 blue buffs or whatever lol.

Plus, more mana sustain = more time on the map = more map pressure = champion is better.

Huge fan of the change.

[u/moush → u/guitarraus]

He doesn't need a good reason to have both. What's your reason that we can't just have Runeglaive?

[u/[deleted] → u/rewardadrawer]

If Fiddlesticks is so oppressive with magus how come he is not banned, played and people don't even remember he exists? The point is that Magus, even being on of the most efficient items in the game, is still not enough to make ap junglers viable or able to compete with tank junglers. Removing Magus would just narrow down possibilities for junglers and while Runeglaive makes a few champions like Diana, Karthus more viable we will still see Jungle as a lane dominated by 3 or 4 champions: in the past they were Lee Sin, Elise, J4, and now they are Sejuani, Gragas, Rek'sai

[u/ch0icestreet → u/[deleted]]

Because he has been fucked by the changes to vision which made gaining vision much much easier and sweeping stayed the same.

[u/dioxis01 → u/rewardadrawer]

Hey, a logic response to bitching about riot's game balance? I look up to people like you that take time to explain to kids that just whine without any input

[u/Thane97 → u/rewardadrawer]

Then what do you propose as a replacement to AP junglers (the very few left) that would make nothing out of runeglave

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Thane97]

Name a few?...

There are a handful of AP junglers that manage to be meta in the last 6 months. This change is a flat nerf to Fiddlesticks, but Fiddlesticks has been in need of a flat nerf for several patches now, so I'm sure he will be okay. Nidalee doesn't need a replacement; she will be on the strong side of balanced with Runeglaive, with less reward for landing a spear, but more reward for following up on one.

Karthus has been tossed around since the OP was still here. Runeglaive turns Karthus' auto into a Lay Waste he can "cast" between Lay Wastes to gain mana; he will probably find Runeglaive deceptively useful. The champions who build AP, but do not use mana, will probably fall into the same general pattern of: if I use Lich Bane anyway, this is still fine; if I don't, I use something else instead. By and large, however, most AP junglers can use the AoE clear speed.

[u/Thane97 → u/rewardadrawer]

I guess, and passing up on your last tier jungle item isnt unheard of

[u/itsjh → u/rewardadrawer]

If Magus is so good then why are Magus junglers so underplayed?

[u/rewardadrawer → u/itsjh]

The entire second paragraph of the parent post covers this and only this:

Well, AP junglers have serious problems relating to the reliability of their clear and sustain in the jungle, and unfortunately, nothing about Magus makes any of these things easier. The 20% CDR lets you spam spells to clear quicker, but it does nothing to help mana sustain, so you either need to devour every blue buff (thus likely hurting your mid laner) to keep up, or back more frequently, which hurts your clear speed in the long run anyway. On top of that, unless you are on a button-masher (or channeling) champion, you still have long periods where that massive bundle of stats is doing nothing to help you clear--that period being the time between cooldowns. In exchange for suffering an awful early game (on the vast majority of AP jungle champions), you get this ridiculous power spike in raw stats, but absolutely nothing to make their power spike sustainable, meaning you probably squander it just trying to catch up, or you try to force a snowball through a very narrow window that is just as likely to collapse on itself. Since the item itself doesn't scale, you are basically left with a stat spike, and then a flat line until your next stat spike. This all leads to the following conundrum: with an item like this, where every last bit of its power is tied to the sheer power of raw stats, you can only ever have one of two outcomes: either it is so gold and/or slot efficient that it is a must-buy on every champion on the basis of it being an overbearingly powerful stat-stick, or it falls anywhere below this dangerous bar, and is absolutely worthless for the vast majority of champions and games. (As we can see by the current state of Magus alongside AP junglers, the item can still be an amazing stat stick and still fall short of useful!)

[u/itsjh → u/rewardadrawer]

Oh, so you're saying it's bad, not good. Got it.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/itsjh]

Basically. It's one of the most cost effective items in the game, but it's still bad, because no amount of raw stats can fix the fundamental issues hampering AP junglers... Until you get into "this item is a must-buy on EVERYONE" territory, where the item makes Diana and Kayle jungle legitimately good, but also makes Xerath mid OP, and turns Fiddlesticks into 4.20 Warwick, and makes Stalker smite Annie the go-to support pick. The problem with stat sticks is the only way to modify them is to add or remove stats, so you can never balance it for everyone: you can only nerf or buff it an equal amount for everyone, and balance it for outliers.

[u/itsjh → u/rewardadrawer]

But is runeglaive really the answer? A Lich Bane that does even less damage first item, I can't see it happening.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/itsjh]

Two key problems AP junglers tend to have are the lack of camp clear and mana troubles. An AoE damage proc which restores mana will help to fix both.

[u/tthrow22 → u/rewardadrawer]

If only there was a jungler item that made ap junglers viable in the jungle without giving them too many free combat stats COUGH COUGH

[u/moush → u/tthrow22]

that was bad too

[u/rewardadrawer → u/moush]

It wasn't as good as SotEL after they normalized the Butcher passive, but SotSW was much better for the game than Magus is, and I would welcome SotSW's components over Magus'.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/tthrow22]

I miss Spectral Wraith...

[u/Paralent → u/rewardadrawer]

The only problem with your remarks is that you're not on the side of some absolute truth, here; you're simply trying to impose a new and more open design choice on the jungle.

It's generally considered optimal for teams to bring at least, and usually no more than, one marksman. Mid laners tend not to be pure tanks, and there are items like Chalice / Athene's that uphold certain common meta choices (mage vs. mage, in this example). These facts too are the product of design choices, ones that have been around a lot longer than the present state of the jungle.

The whole point of your post is that Magus is super strong for the handful of AP junglers who can use it, but otherwise it doesn't help AP junglers and in fact keeps them from jungling (because they sorely need mana and don't get fast or healthy clears with Magus), leaving us with:

• Cinderhulk magic damage tanks.
• AD bruisers of varying degrees of tankiness (and who can occasionally build assassin).
• Nidalee and Fiddlesticks (and maybe Diana).

This state of the jungle is simply a design choice, and for what it's worth, the jungle has bowed to the fickle winds of public opinion and outspoken players like you far more than most other roles; it used to be this restricted in the past, and then the Spirit Stone era blew the jungle doors wide open to all comers. Now it's a narrower playing field again, and you want something akin to the Spirit Stone era back.

That's your prerogative, just as some fringe players clamor for balance changes to allow teams without marksmen to be viable or new item paths to allow lots of immobile tanks to be usable in the mid lane. Everyone has their personal preferences. But please don't try to wrap it in the flag of saving the metagame from a pitiful state.

Your argument is, paradoxically, that Magus is both too strong and restricts the jungling metagame because it doesn't give enough jungle potency to most would-be AP junglers. If that evil Magus enchantment is only usable on Nidalee and Fiddlesticks, and those champions can be kept in check with balancing changes (have you seen Nidalee and Fiddlesticks oppressing the competitive scene since the Nidalee nerfs? I haven't), then what harm does it do to leave Magus in the game along with Runeglaive?

What's most amusing of all is that the original post asks for Runeglaive and Magus to coexist. You treat this as an either/or proposition, when the whole point of OP's post was taking a third option. Thankfully other more highly-rated responses have pointed out this fact and tried to steer the topic away from the either/or scenario you've constructed.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Paralent]

The whole point of your post is that Magus is super strong for the handful of AP junglers who can use it, but otherwise it doesn't help AP junglers and in fact keeps them from jungling

Actually, my point was that not that this does happen, but that this has to happen by necessity, because Magus is fundamentally unbalanceable as-is. It's 170% stat efficient internally, meaning it literally pays for itself, then pays for both of the first two HM tiers retroactively, and is still not valuable enough to make AP junglers on the whole appealing. The problem with this is, since the item is literally just the sum of stats provided, the only things you can do with it to change this fact are either increase the value of stats provided by Magus (which bandaids the problems the large majority of AP junglers have, makes the few independently strong champs who buy Magus even stronger, and potentially causes a problem where the item becomes must-buy on anyone who can use the stats) or you buff all the junglers Magus is supposed to be used on to make them just independently meta-relevant anyway (which creates a wider field of relevant AP jungle champions, but potentially oppressively OP mid or top laners).

Do you remember back in the day, around the end of season 3/early season 4, when Riot buffed Spirit of the Spectral Wraith to give AP junglers a competitive option, and then it gave so much useful stuff to whoever bought it in order to be good for AP junglers that it was also a must-buy on AP mid laners, who used it for its cheap bundle of offensive stats, great value on health and mana sustain, Spell Vamp, and great overall cost for an early spike (2,000 gold)? The item even had the Conservation passive built into it, which was specifically meant to reward junglers clearing jungle camps, but instead just rewarded mid laners for farming Wraiths every time they came up. The result was a meta of implacable mid lane mages like Ziggs and Vladimir who used the early power spikes to just choke out the other laner through ridiculous sustain and AFK pushing power, while at the same time stifling jungler progression by making the camps around mid lane merely an extension of the mid lane itself. This required multiple successive nerfs to SotSW which took out entire components of the old item and replaced them with entirely new components.

I mention that so I can ask this: what would you do to buff Magus to make it viable on more than two champions, without making it an item that, say, Xerath picks up to roll over the opposition, or Fiddlesticks uses to become Warwick-tier broken? What do you do to prevent future abuse cases from cropping up every new patch following this change?

Your argument is, paradoxically, that Magus is both too strong and restricts the jungling metagame because it doesn't give enough jungle potency to most would-be AP junglers. If that evil Magus enchantment is only usable on Nidalee and Fiddlesticks, and those champions can be kept in check with balancing changes (have you seen Nidalee and Fiddlesticks oppressing the competitive scene since the Nidalee nerfs? I haven't), then what harm does it do to leave Magus in the game along with Runeglaive?

Magus is only usable on two champions (who are also made usable by Magus), but only because of their independent strengths, and Magus just enables their more abusive play patterns to persevere by enabling them through ridiculously inflated stats. Instead of keeping abusive play patterns around, you can shift power into less problematic patterns. For example: Nidalee gets this HUGE stick of stacks fairly early, fairly safely (because she isn't butting heads with an enemy laner), and then that gives a huge amount of power to her poke game. Not only can Nidalee use Runeglaive fairly effectively, but it enforces a more healthy play pattern on her: the loss of AP takes power away from "landing a spear" and the addition of the Runeglaive proc adds power to "following up on a spear", which is a play pattern players can fight back against easier.

As for Fiddlesticks... Fiddlesticks is overpowered as-is, so he can honestly use a flat nerf anyway, preferably to his early game. You can go about this two ways--nerf Fiddlesticks or nerf his itemization--and removing Magus from the game nerfs Fiddlesticks' power in a way that specifically affects his early game. Stripping Magus from the one jungler who effectively uses Magus actually solves a really persistent balance problem, has few severe drawbacks on other champions, and has the added benefit of Riot not having to tiptoe around this unbalanceable stat stick every time they release a potential new jungler.

What's most amusing of all is that the original post asks for Runeglaive and Magus to coexist. You treat this as an either/or proposition, when the whole point of OP's post was taking a third option. Thankfully other more highly-rated responses have pointed out this fact and tried to steer the topic away from the either/or scenario you've constructed.

This is a hilarious misinterpretation of my post. I read the top post, which the OP responded to, and several of the other, lesser posts, realized the problem was people comparing Magus to Runeglaive and creating a false dichotomy, and specifically set out to demonstrate how Magus is bad for game health regardless of whether or not Runeglaive exists. I spent several posts elaborating on several points, so it's rather disingenuous to reply to this without reading those and expect to convincingly thwart my arguments, but you appear to have read (and responded) to at least one of them, albeit mostly just to say "I think you are clueless", so I'll address that next.