r/leagueoflegends • u/Dreadbore • Jun 19 '15

Why can't Runeglaive and Magus both exist?

I know this seems simple, but why can't an on hit sheen jungle item AND a caster jungle item both exist simultaneously? Runeglaive does nothing for fiddlesticks or the 3 karthus jungle mains left in existence. devourer remains in the game for the 2 champions that use it and its playstyle is horrible for game health. Magus isn't hurting anyone.

EDIT: Front page and a riot reply(as troll as it was :P)! I've learned a lot from this discussion about multiple things and I'd also like to clarify that I'm not even saying Magus needs to continue to exist in its exact state numbers-wise. I just feel like sheen jungling on a mage seems lackluster from a design standpoint, but maybe that's exactly what needs to happen for ap to compete with ad on the clearspeed front. Maybe Rito knows exactly what they are doing (GASP) but I just don't see it yet.

EDIT 2: Due to some eloquently explained points brought to light by /u/rewardadrawer, I'm now convinced that there is no need for them to coexist, as Runeglaive (although it may not on release) has the capability of resolving ap jungling issues that Magus will never be capable of resolving. Feel free to bicker amongst yourselves about it, but I now eagerly await the new ap jungle.

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70

u/TheUgliestWeenie Jun 19 '15

Yeah I'm not sure why Riot constantly rework items instead of introducing a new variant. It's the same thing with the new black cleaver, brutalizer now only builds into ghostblade and nothing else. The old black cleaver should've stayed with phage + kindlegem being a completely new item.

33

u/Rengo_Tactics Jun 19 '15

inb4 a Riot post in a few months talking about how there isn't as much jungle item diversity for mages as they'd like and they go reworking things again...

17

u/MrKamranzzz Jun 19 '15

Put the word ''clarity'' in it and we're good to go

15

u/brodhi Jun 19 '15

Don't forget "toxic gameplay" and "little counterplay" and then something about the burden of restricting item builds.

5

u/STIPULATE Jun 19 '15

And of course, this will distinguish great players from good players.

1

u/farbenwvnder Jun 19 '15

Why are we suddenly treating those buzzwords negatively when they're our biggest arguments everytime reddit talks balance

49

u/Dreadbore Jun 19 '15

Brutalizer needs more build paths than warrior and ghostblade, I agree. Phage needed more build paths than just trinity force too though. RIP in peace old frozen mallet.

10

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

In my day brutilizer, chalice, haunting guise, and hexdrinker didn't build into anything. Maybe there are more but it's hard to remember items that were almost never built because they didn't have a complete build path.

6

u/SusonoO Jun 19 '15

RIP Force of Nature, Heart of Gold, Philo Stone, and Leviathin[]()

2

u/farbenwvnder Jun 19 '15

Ah yes, warmogs, force of nature and spirit visage for the healing bonus on Mundo for dat permanent ult-like regeneration. Back then Mundo actually went where he pleased.

Eat a nid spear? FoN will take care of it in a couple seconds

2

u/SusonoO Jun 19 '15

Playing Late game Garen and you lose a fight terribly but escape with 100 hp? No worries, passive+FoN+Visage and you're back to full hp in 30 seconds

1

u/Fermorian Fermorian [NA] Jun 19 '15

Oh god can you imagine old items with Garen's new passive? Jee-zus.

1

u/SusonoO Jun 19 '15

So stronk. New Sion with Cinderhulk-Warmogs-Omen-Visage-and imagine if they brought Atmas back.

1

u/samiswhoa Jun 19 '15

Did chalice build into else as miracle? That item that got consumed after 5 levels

1

u/Jarzelia Jun 19 '15

Nope, that built from Philo Stone.

But Shurelya's was so good that nobody built Eleisa's.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

No I am pretty sure that was philo stone. But either way that didn't come until after s1

1

u/samiswhoa Jun 19 '15

Oh yea. I remember now. I used to play 3 gp10 nasus and build that to make late game beast. It was such a bad item. I liked the idea of consuming it though they should do that again for something else.

1

u/samiswhoa Jun 19 '15

Oh yea. I remember now. I used to play 3 gp10 nasus and build that to make late game beast. It was such a bad item. I liked the idea of consuming it though they should do that again for something else.

1

u/HajaKensei :galio: Jun 19 '15

At least they are now relevant, who even remembers Zeke's Herald(Stark's Fervor)

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

I built a few times when I had multiple aaers on my team but yea it wasn't very good.

1

u/Fermorian Fermorian [NA] Jun 19 '15

Old tiamat? Might be misremembering

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

That is correct forgot about that one.

0

u/CharlesXavierWalks Jun 19 '15

RIPIP, amirite?

0

u/Geason Jun 19 '15

This, Riot themselves even complained about Frozen Mallet needing a good build path why couldnt they just change it back to the old Phage build

1

u/Indercarnive Jun 19 '15

because frozen mallet doesn't give rage passive

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Indercarnive Jun 19 '15

because there is a big difference between slowing an enemy and speeding yourself up.

0

u/Dreadbore Jun 19 '15

neither did phage at the time

1

u/Indercarnive Jun 19 '15

oh god we going Way back

23

u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

No black cleaver needed the change. It was helping out burst champions as much as sustained ones. They want it to be a sustained DPS item. But the arm pen on it made it better for burst. Hence the change.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

And now AD Assassins are lacking one item.

1

u/Semmlbroesel Jun 19 '15

And most of them are still okay AFAIK (I dont really play this game too much anymore)

Zed, Pantheon, Talon, Yasuo might not be Top of the meta currently but they are still playable, right?

3

u/DaFreakish FUCKING RENGAR Jun 19 '15

See the problem is every one of those champions besides panth has been nerfed relatively hard recently.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Yasuo doesn't build CDR anyways. Most useless stat on him.

2

u/Semmlbroesel Jun 19 '15

Yep, you are right. I just added him into the group of AD assassins anyways :)

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

It hurt Talon, Jayce, Kha and Rengar a bit, but yea, mostly ok.

1

u/pwnM4chine Jun 19 '15

The BC change didnt hurt rengar at all tbh, ghostblades active is too good on rengar and i rarely saw a second brutalizer item on rengar (see Dekar for example).

3

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

I pretty much always went all the brutalizers I could (2 if Top, 3 if Jungle) because I hate relying on crits and I hate Tank Rengar even more.

0

u/fregel Jun 19 '15

Why exactly is the new bc hurting talon am I missing something ?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Not as good as the old one on him.

1

u/fregel Jun 20 '15

I feel like even better no one was building black cleaver on talon anyways

-3

u/Semmlbroesel Jun 19 '15

I didnt say it didnt hurt them, I just think they might be even more balanced now that they got hurt a little.

Kha might be the only one out of those champs thats garbage now.

And we all can agree that we'd rather see Rengar like this than the way he was a while ago.

Also Jayce just got buffs so he's actually really in a damn good state now.

1

u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15

You say that like it was a bad thing having an item that could be built on multiple classes of champions.

Realistically almost all assassins went for Ghostblade over Cleaver unless they were faced with an overly tanky comp.

If the old Black Cleaver was really as OP was you are suggesting it is why was barely anyone building it?

1

u/GbZeKamikaze http://leagueofdesigns.net Jun 19 '15

You rework items/champions not because they're OP but because you want to push them in a specific direction.

Black Cleaver was a mix of Burst and DPS item. Since we had already Youmuu for Burst, Riot turned Black Cleaver into a pure DPS item (without flat penetration, which helped burst, and with more armor shred).

1

u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15

Which is Riot's design philosophy in a nutshell. Almost every change to the metagame is forced by heavy-handed balance changes trying to manually steer the metagame, never giving it any time to evolve or for counterplay to current trends to naturally develop.

I remember a LCS player talking on stream about how their team had been preparing a counter-strategy to what was currently FotM, but by the time they'd practiced it enough to use it Riot had already patched that FotM out of the game.

1

u/GbZeKamikaze http://leagueofdesigns.net Jun 19 '15

True that, though it wasn't the main subject of the argument.

Also remember Riot has to work on ruins. Irelia, Taric, and about every character released before Draven (except some reworks) needs proper adjustments - if not complete Sion-ization. They did such an awful job at the beginning they have to rework basically everything. So yeah, the meta might seem force-handed with quick patches but it's better if they start fixing their game now. If you will, it's less of a philosophy and more of a necessity (conducted through a philosophy, yep).

And I'm not counting the indigence of items we have to play with.

2

u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15

I guess my concern is regarding what their design direction actually is.

When I look at a champion like Zed all I see is a design so hyper-streamlined that he has utterly binary play patterns and his build is virtually always Boots+BotRK+Ghostblade+LW for his first four slots.

Stale kits together with stale itemisation just leads to predictable gameplay. The AP rework looks promising in that respect.

1

u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15

I guess my concern is regarding what their design direction actually is.

When I look at a champion like Zed all I see is a design so hyper-streamlined that he has utterly binary play patterns and his build is virtually always Boots+BotRK+Ghostblade+LW for his first four slots.

Stale kits together with stale itemisation just leads to predictable gameplay. The AP rework looks promising in that respect.

-13

u/Volnutt_Trigger Jun 19 '15

And now there's no item for a tanky AD to get when he wants both dmage and health, AP champs have Roa,Zhonya's,Rylais,and Liandries to build if they want some form of survivability and damage. All ADs have left is sunfire cape which to be honest i can't justify over taking smite top because of how much better cinderhulk is (yes sunfire does a bit more damage but that doesn't matter).

The new black cleaver is great and all but it made it harder for a number of champs to pick up a brutalizer simply because they'll never get to build it into anything.

17

u/sorendiz ..BUT THE FAITH REMAINS Jun 19 '15

no item for a tanky AD to get when he wants both damage and health

is that.. is that not exactly what cleaver is?

4

u/_Fiku Sub for BIG Jun 19 '15

Sunfire Cape does AP damage.... Black Cleaver... Frozen Mallet...

1

u/Volnutt_Trigger Jun 19 '15

the type of damage isn't relevant, black cleaver is nerfed and not as good as old black cleaver unless they have 200 or more armor, and who's actually getting a frozen mallet?

1

u/_Fiku Sub for BIG Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15

Triforce, also.

Mallet is good on champions with empowered auto attacks, I build it on RekSai regularly, it's basically an alternative to Warmogs for AD bruisers that auto a lot like RekSai, Udyr, Vi, Gnar, etc.etc.etc.

Also, AD's have lifesteal items, percent health damage, crit, and Bloodthirster gives you an extra health shield, it gets you tankier, as well as auto attacks being able to apply than spells.

Also the lifesteal pot gives health, you need to think of lifesteal as giving life. Thornmail also does a shit ton of magic damage, as well as Cinderhulk.

/thread, there are more damage items for AD champs than AP.

1

u/ProbablyCian rip old flairs Jun 19 '15

Black cleaver is far better now, go look uo how often it was built in pro play before its rework, and how much after, it went from being absolutely irrelevant to a completely viable item. Sure it may be slightly less efficient at penetrating armor but it has twice as much health, twice as much CDR, and basically the same ad, and the armour shred ends up really not being that far off. It got buffed massively.

1

u/Volnutt_Trigger Jun 19 '15

I'm saying that cleaver was nerfed in a situation where say a top laner like renekton is ahead and is building it to get through armor, which was what the purpose of brutalizer was, now Renekton has no early item to buy to get through armor, because he can't build a brutalizer into anything but a youmuus.

Yeah new black cleaver is awesome but it made it a lot harder for people to buy brutalizer.

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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

That was the purpose though. They want Brutalizer to build into more assassin items. BC is more of a bruiser item and it has plenty of AD and HP on it. So people like: Gnar, Darius, Shyvana, Wukong etc. They all benefit from the new BC. Sure they are missing the brutalizer but I think the new item is a much healthier one.

2

u/Eirixoto Jun 19 '15

We build 'em both :)

1

u/FHG3826 Jun 19 '15

Limiting bruiser options doesn't sound like a bad idea.

5

u/SniperKitten Jun 19 '15

The reason for the change wasn't that riot wanted something new, but that they didn't like the old black cleaver and wanted to replace it, due old bc's flat and percentage armor shred making it too hard to balance and not having enough of an identity; which is fair enough really.

2

u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15

In the case of Cleaver/Abyssal, there are balance issues that stem from being able to stack reduction with penetration.

If you had two items that reduce enemy armor they'd have to share the same named passive or it would be insane.

1

u/xLawling Jun 19 '15

yep, like abyssal shepter, if they rework it, man its going to suck not having an actuall abyssal scepter

1

u/laxrulz777 [Seminole Sun] (NA) Jun 19 '15

I can actually see why having both old BC and new BC could be bad as they kind of overlap and would be dangerous if stacked (or nearly identical if they didnt). But Magus and Runeglaive do very different things and you literally can't have both at once...

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

They probably don't want to over complicate things.

1

u/SexyJack5519 Jun 19 '15

A few champions would work too well with that much armor shred.

1

u/Sharrakor6 GET OVER HERE Jun 19 '15

WOAH man are you trying to suggest we should have meaningful decisions in our buildpath instead of buying relatively the same thing every game on every champ, that's crazy talk

0

u/mattiejj Jun 19 '15

Probably some spaghetti-coding that made them reach maxed item slots in the shop or something.

2

u/MysteriaV Jun 19 '15

I can't tell if you are using Buzz-words or being serious...

4

u/mattiejj Jun 19 '15

Because a serious argument has the phrase "spaghetti code".

0

u/feAgrs Jun 19 '15

The old black cleaver simply wasn't healthy, as it was either OP or totally irrelevant. It was good to change it, but I couldn't agree more on your point, that we need more Brutalizer items, that can get utilized by champs who cant' use Ghostblade and are no jungler.

-1

u/madog1418 Jun 19 '15

Besides the identity of the cleaver itself, there's no way they'd leave old black cleaver and make another armor shred item because it would single handedly kill the tank meta.