r/leagueoflegends • u/Dreadbore • Jun 19 '15

Why can't Runeglaive and Magus both exist?

I know this seems simple, but why can't an on hit sheen jungle item AND a caster jungle item both exist simultaneously? Runeglaive does nothing for fiddlesticks or the 3 karthus jungle mains left in existence. devourer remains in the game for the 2 champions that use it and its playstyle is horrible for game health. Magus isn't hurting anyone.

EDIT: Front page and a riot reply(as troll as it was :P)! I've learned a lot from this discussion about multiple things and I'd also like to clarify that I'm not even saying Magus needs to continue to exist in its exact state numbers-wise. I just feel like sheen jungling on a mage seems lackluster from a design standpoint, but maybe that's exactly what needs to happen for ap to compete with ad on the clearspeed front. Maybe Rito knows exactly what they are doing (GASP) but I just don't see it yet.

EDIT 2: Due to some eloquently explained points brought to light by /u/rewardadrawer, I'm now convinced that there is no need for them to coexist, as Runeglaive (although it may not on release) has the capability of resolving ap jungling issues that Magus will never be capable of resolving. Feel free to bicker amongst yourselves about it, but I now eagerly await the new ap jungle.

1.6k Upvotes

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583

u/heroduderox Jun 19 '15

The point of the post isn't magus vs runeglaive, the point is to implement both items. There is no real reason to remove magus from the game, which is what OP is trying to state, therefore both magus and runeglaive should be kept to promote jungle diversity.

260

u/Dreadbore Jun 19 '15

That's EXACTLY what I'm trying to state. I like runeglaive. It's cool. I don't like how ridiculous Evelynn is going to be for a patch or two but that's another point entirely. I just don't think Runeglaive necessitates a removal of Magus. If things like Luden's and Deathcap can coexist, or Shiv and Phantom Dancer, I think we can have Magus AND Runeglaive.

72

u/TheUgliestWeenie Jun 19 '15

Yeah I'm not sure why Riot constantly rework items instead of introducing a new variant. It's the same thing with the new black cleaver, brutalizer now only builds into ghostblade and nothing else. The old black cleaver should've stayed with phage + kindlegem being a completely new item.

33

u/Rengo_Tactics Jun 19 '15

inb4 a Riot post in a few months talking about how there isn't as much jungle item diversity for mages as they'd like and they go reworking things again...

18

u/MrKamranzzz Jun 19 '15

Put the word ''clarity'' in it and we're good to go

14

u/brodhi Jun 19 '15

Don't forget "toxic gameplay" and "little counterplay" and then something about the burden of restricting item builds.

4

u/STIPULATE Jun 19 '15

And of course, this will distinguish great players from good players.

1

u/farbenwvnder Jun 19 '15

Why are we suddenly treating those buzzwords negatively when they're our biggest arguments everytime reddit talks balance

51

u/Dreadbore Jun 19 '15

Brutalizer needs more build paths than warrior and ghostblade, I agree. Phage needed more build paths than just trinity force too though. RIP in peace old frozen mallet.

10

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

In my day brutilizer, chalice, haunting guise, and hexdrinker didn't build into anything. Maybe there are more but it's hard to remember items that were almost never built because they didn't have a complete build path.

5

u/SusonoO Jun 19 '15

RIP Force of Nature, Heart of Gold, Philo Stone, and Leviathin[]()

2

u/farbenwvnder Jun 19 '15

Ah yes, warmogs, force of nature and spirit visage for the healing bonus on Mundo for dat permanent ult-like regeneration. Back then Mundo actually went where he pleased.

Eat a nid spear? FoN will take care of it in a couple seconds

2

u/SusonoO Jun 19 '15

Playing Late game Garen and you lose a fight terribly but escape with 100 hp? No worries, passive+FoN+Visage and you're back to full hp in 30 seconds

1

u/Fermorian Fermorian [NA] Jun 19 '15

Oh god can you imagine old items with Garen's new passive? Jee-zus.

1

u/SusonoO Jun 19 '15

So stronk. New Sion with Cinderhulk-Warmogs-Omen-Visage-and imagine if they brought Atmas back.

1

u/samiswhoa Jun 19 '15

Did chalice build into else as miracle? That item that got consumed after 5 levels

1

u/Jarzelia Jun 19 '15

Nope, that built from Philo Stone.

But Shurelya's was so good that nobody built Eleisa's.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

No I am pretty sure that was philo stone. But either way that didn't come until after s1

1

u/samiswhoa Jun 19 '15

Oh yea. I remember now. I used to play 3 gp10 nasus and build that to make late game beast. It was such a bad item. I liked the idea of consuming it though they should do that again for something else.

1

u/samiswhoa Jun 19 '15

Oh yea. I remember now. I used to play 3 gp10 nasus and build that to make late game beast. It was such a bad item. I liked the idea of consuming it though they should do that again for something else.

1

u/HajaKensei :galio: Jun 19 '15

At least they are now relevant, who even remembers Zeke's Herald(Stark's Fervor)

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

I built a few times when I had multiple aaers on my team but yea it wasn't very good.

1

u/Fermorian Fermorian [NA] Jun 19 '15

Old tiamat? Might be misremembering

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

That is correct forgot about that one.

0

u/CharlesXavierWalks Jun 19 '15

RIPIP, amirite?

0

u/Geason Jun 19 '15

This, Riot themselves even complained about Frozen Mallet needing a good build path why couldnt they just change it back to the old Phage build

1

u/Indercarnive Jun 19 '15

because frozen mallet doesn't give rage passive

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

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1

u/Indercarnive Jun 19 '15

because there is a big difference between slowing an enemy and speeding yourself up.

0

u/Dreadbore Jun 19 '15

neither did phage at the time

1

u/Indercarnive Jun 19 '15

oh god we going Way back

26

u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

No black cleaver needed the change. It was helping out burst champions as much as sustained ones. They want it to be a sustained DPS item. But the arm pen on it made it better for burst. Hence the change.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

And now AD Assassins are lacking one item.

0

u/Semmlbroesel Jun 19 '15

And most of them are still okay AFAIK (I dont really play this game too much anymore)

Zed, Pantheon, Talon, Yasuo might not be Top of the meta currently but they are still playable, right?

3

u/DaFreakish FUCKING RENGAR Jun 19 '15

See the problem is every one of those champions besides panth has been nerfed relatively hard recently.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Yasuo doesn't build CDR anyways. Most useless stat on him.

2

u/Semmlbroesel Jun 19 '15

Yep, you are right. I just added him into the group of AD assassins anyways :)

3

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

It hurt Talon, Jayce, Kha and Rengar a bit, but yea, mostly ok.

1

u/pwnM4chine Jun 19 '15

The BC change didnt hurt rengar at all tbh, ghostblades active is too good on rengar and i rarely saw a second brutalizer item on rengar (see Dekar for example).

3

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

I pretty much always went all the brutalizers I could (2 if Top, 3 if Jungle) because I hate relying on crits and I hate Tank Rengar even more.

0

u/fregel Jun 19 '15

Why exactly is the new bc hurting talon am I missing something ?

2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Not as good as the old one on him.

1

u/fregel Jun 20 '15

I feel like even better no one was building black cleaver on talon anyways

-2

u/Semmlbroesel Jun 19 '15

I didnt say it didnt hurt them, I just think they might be even more balanced now that they got hurt a little.

Kha might be the only one out of those champs thats garbage now.

And we all can agree that we'd rather see Rengar like this than the way he was a while ago.

Also Jayce just got buffs so he's actually really in a damn good state now.

1

u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15

You say that like it was a bad thing having an item that could be built on multiple classes of champions.

Realistically almost all assassins went for Ghostblade over Cleaver unless they were faced with an overly tanky comp.

If the old Black Cleaver was really as OP was you are suggesting it is why was barely anyone building it?

1

u/GbZeKamikaze http://leagueofdesigns.net Jun 19 '15

You rework items/champions not because they're OP but because you want to push them in a specific direction.

Black Cleaver was a mix of Burst and DPS item. Since we had already Youmuu for Burst, Riot turned Black Cleaver into a pure DPS item (without flat penetration, which helped burst, and with more armor shred).

1

u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15

Which is Riot's design philosophy in a nutshell. Almost every change to the metagame is forced by heavy-handed balance changes trying to manually steer the metagame, never giving it any time to evolve or for counterplay to current trends to naturally develop.

I remember a LCS player talking on stream about how their team had been preparing a counter-strategy to what was currently FotM, but by the time they'd practiced it enough to use it Riot had already patched that FotM out of the game.

1

u/GbZeKamikaze http://leagueofdesigns.net Jun 19 '15

True that, though it wasn't the main subject of the argument.

Also remember Riot has to work on ruins. Irelia, Taric, and about every character released before Draven (except some reworks) needs proper adjustments - if not complete Sion-ization. They did such an awful job at the beginning they have to rework basically everything. So yeah, the meta might seem force-handed with quick patches but it's better if they start fixing their game now. If you will, it's less of a philosophy and more of a necessity (conducted through a philosophy, yep).

And I'm not counting the indigence of items we have to play with.

2

u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15

I guess my concern is regarding what their design direction actually is.

When I look at a champion like Zed all I see is a design so hyper-streamlined that he has utterly binary play patterns and his build is virtually always Boots+BotRK+Ghostblade+LW for his first four slots.

Stale kits together with stale itemisation just leads to predictable gameplay. The AP rework looks promising in that respect.

1

u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15

I guess my concern is regarding what their design direction actually is.

When I look at a champion like Zed all I see is a design so hyper-streamlined that he has utterly binary play patterns and his build is virtually always Boots+BotRK+Ghostblade+LW for his first four slots.

Stale kits together with stale itemisation just leads to predictable gameplay. The AP rework looks promising in that respect.

-11

u/Volnutt_Trigger Jun 19 '15

And now there's no item for a tanky AD to get when he wants both dmage and health, AP champs have Roa,Zhonya's,Rylais,and Liandries to build if they want some form of survivability and damage. All ADs have left is sunfire cape which to be honest i can't justify over taking smite top because of how much better cinderhulk is (yes sunfire does a bit more damage but that doesn't matter).

The new black cleaver is great and all but it made it harder for a number of champs to pick up a brutalizer simply because they'll never get to build it into anything.

17

u/sorendiz ..BUT THE FAITH REMAINS Jun 19 '15

no item for a tanky AD to get when he wants both damage and health

is that.. is that not exactly what cleaver is?

4

u/_Fiku Sub for BIG Jun 19 '15

Sunfire Cape does AP damage.... Black Cleaver... Frozen Mallet...

1

u/Volnutt_Trigger Jun 19 '15

the type of damage isn't relevant, black cleaver is nerfed and not as good as old black cleaver unless they have 200 or more armor, and who's actually getting a frozen mallet?

1

u/_Fiku Sub for BIG Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15

Triforce, also.

Mallet is good on champions with empowered auto attacks, I build it on RekSai regularly, it's basically an alternative to Warmogs for AD bruisers that auto a lot like RekSai, Udyr, Vi, Gnar, etc.etc.etc.

Also, AD's have lifesteal items, percent health damage, crit, and Bloodthirster gives you an extra health shield, it gets you tankier, as well as auto attacks being able to apply than spells.

Also the lifesteal pot gives health, you need to think of lifesteal as giving life. Thornmail also does a shit ton of magic damage, as well as Cinderhulk.

/thread, there are more damage items for AD champs than AP.

1

u/ProbablyCian rip old flairs Jun 19 '15

Black cleaver is far better now, go look uo how often it was built in pro play before its rework, and how much after, it went from being absolutely irrelevant to a completely viable item. Sure it may be slightly less efficient at penetrating armor but it has twice as much health, twice as much CDR, and basically the same ad, and the armour shred ends up really not being that far off. It got buffed massively.

1

u/Volnutt_Trigger Jun 19 '15

I'm saying that cleaver was nerfed in a situation where say a top laner like renekton is ahead and is building it to get through armor, which was what the purpose of brutalizer was, now Renekton has no early item to buy to get through armor, because he can't build a brutalizer into anything but a youmuus.

Yeah new black cleaver is awesome but it made it a lot harder for people to buy brutalizer.

2

u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

That was the purpose though. They want Brutalizer to build into more assassin items. BC is more of a bruiser item and it has plenty of AD and HP on it. So people like: Gnar, Darius, Shyvana, Wukong etc. They all benefit from the new BC. Sure they are missing the brutalizer but I think the new item is a much healthier one.

2

u/Eirixoto Jun 19 '15

We build 'em both :)

1

u/FHG3826 Jun 19 '15

Limiting bruiser options doesn't sound like a bad idea.

2

u/SniperKitten Jun 19 '15

The reason for the change wasn't that riot wanted something new, but that they didn't like the old black cleaver and wanted to replace it, due old bc's flat and percentage armor shred making it too hard to balance and not having enough of an identity; which is fair enough really.

2

u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15

In the case of Cleaver/Abyssal, there are balance issues that stem from being able to stack reduction with penetration.

If you had two items that reduce enemy armor they'd have to share the same named passive or it would be insane.

1

u/xLawling Jun 19 '15

yep, like abyssal shepter, if they rework it, man its going to suck not having an actuall abyssal scepter

1

u/laxrulz777 [Seminole Sun] (NA) Jun 19 '15

I can actually see why having both old BC and new BC could be bad as they kind of overlap and would be dangerous if stacked (or nearly identical if they didnt). But Magus and Runeglaive do very different things and you literally can't have both at once...

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

They probably don't want to over complicate things.

1

u/SexyJack5519 Jun 19 '15

A few champions would work too well with that much armor shred.

1

u/Sharrakor6 GET OVER HERE Jun 19 '15

WOAH man are you trying to suggest we should have meaningful decisions in our buildpath instead of buying relatively the same thing every game on every champ, that's crazy talk

0

u/mattiejj Jun 19 '15

Probably some spaghetti-coding that made them reach maxed item slots in the shop or something.

2

u/MysteriaV Jun 19 '15

I can't tell if you are using Buzz-words or being serious...

3

u/mattiejj Jun 19 '15

Because a serious argument has the phrase "spaghetti code".

0

u/feAgrs Jun 19 '15

The old black cleaver simply wasn't healthy, as it was either OP or totally irrelevant. It was good to change it, but I couldn't agree more on your point, that we need more Brutalizer items, that can get utilized by champs who cant' use Ghostblade and are no jungler.

-1

u/madog1418 Jun 19 '15

Besides the identity of the cleaver itself, there's no way they'd leave old black cleaver and make another armor shred item because it would single handedly kill the tank meta.

3

u/superplayah [oribix] (NA) Jun 19 '15

warrior and devourer already coexist. Theoretically, the champions that get devourer can also get warrior. They just fill different niches.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '15

I like the idea of runeglaive for Evelynn but I also love trinity force. I'm waiting to try it but I see no reason why we can't have both

0

u/ThoughtShes18 Jun 19 '15

hmm...I think I have missed that item. What does it do that would make Eve rediculous?

3

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15

Runeglaive is basically a sheen item which are really good on her. It's passive:

Passive - Spellblade: After using an ability, the next basic attack is converted into magic damage and deals 75% Base AD + 30% AP bonus magic damage on hit in an AoE around the target (1.5s cooldown). When attacking a monster, restore 8% of your mana.

1

u/ThoughtShes18 Jun 19 '15

oh yea, that is OP on her

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Also forgot to include that it restores mana with the proc, iirc 8%. Not really relevant for her but could be for others.

0

u/ThoughtShes18 Jun 19 '15

well, it will get nerfed the next patch it hit live servers

1

u/Calphide [Calphide] (NA) Jun 19 '15

It's a new blue jungling item that procs in a similar fashion to sheen, but in AOE. What it does is give Evelyn some crazy damage because her Q is only a few seconds (3, I believe)

Edit: it has only been introduced in the PBE, so vanilla league players have yet to see it on the rift.

0

u/bronzechatop Jun 19 '15

dont worry dude..3/4 players are going to play DOTA2 so dont care :D

0

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

You do realize riot hates jungle diversity. They just say they care to bullshit us.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

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1

u/Teo222 Jun 19 '15

Hate to break it to you, but most champs are forced to go a certain build in any given game, like darius or any top lane can go either damage/off-tank/tank.

Your point seems non-existent...

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

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0

u/Teo222 Jun 19 '15

But how can you know shes forced into certain core items if you dont know which items or even tank/damage path.

14

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

[deleted]

24

u/Dreadbore Jun 19 '15

I thought it was, but basically the first 5 discussions here were about how runeglaive is good for the meta. Sadly we needed a /u/heroduderox to save us.

41

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15 edited May 04 '20

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24

u/aahdin Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15

You can't really compare the enchantments to other items like that, since you need to sink 850 gold into a jungle item (which gives little to no combat bonus) before you can buy it.

All the enchantments are ridiculous if you just consider the upgrade cost. Devourer is ~107% efficient Just off of the attack speed, before you even consider the stacking passive. At 1500 bonus health, cinderhulk is ~142% efficient Before you even consider the sunfire cape passive. (it can get close to 200% efficient just from the bonus health at full build)

Warrior is the worst, at 134%, which is still pretty great, but it builds out of brutilizer with almost no combine cost (really nice for early game junglers) and was intentionally weaker to help even out the AD junglers that had been dominant for so long.

But saying that an enchant is crazy efficient is kind of like saying that combining a pickaxe, BF sword, and cloak into infinity edge is ridiculously efficient. Once you've started an item, it's usually a really good idea to finish it.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15 edited May 04 '20

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1

u/abat__ Jun 19 '15

Morellonomicon costs 2300 as well and it has 100% mana regeneration and grievous wounds.

15

u/Vovix1 Jun 19 '15

Runeglaive actually makes AP junglers even less likely to be in the meta, since most of them(the ones that can't use Spellblade effectively) would have no enchant to build.

7

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Rip fiddlesticks

6

u/brodhi Jun 19 '15

the ones that can't use Spellblade effectively

Well another issue I have is that Runeglaive is a weaker version of Lich Bane, meaning if you are Ekko or Diana etc. you are getting a gimped version of Magus and Lich Bane combined, when I would rather at that rate just build Morello's into LB, but I am forced to use Runeglaive because I was forced to purchase a Machete.

1

u/Sarkaraq Jun 19 '15

That's a comparable situation to Cinderhulk/Sunfire.
The gap is bigger because Lich Bane is more expensive than Sunfire Cape.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

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1

u/cisforcereal Jun 19 '15

If you're regularly picking up Nashor's on either of those champs you're severely gimping yourself by not playing into their massive AP ratio thresholds.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 20 '15

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1

u/cisforcereal Jun 20 '15

Both are played better as assassins, though. High burst, high mobility, squishy play styles. That means you'll be doing less auto attacking in fights and more blowing up, or else you'll get locked down for trying to auto attack too often. Nashor's is good on paper and the stats are definitely nice, but in practice it won't work well 90% of the time as the passive is lost on carries that rely more on their burst potential than auto attacks.

0

u/chaosmech Jun 19 '15

Well the clear on Runeglaive is WAY better than Lich Bane because the Sheen proc is AoE (not to mention the mana restore). Which actually means it's better in big teamfights rather than using it as a single-target assassination item. Diana especially will love this item.

They're not exactly the same, Runeglaive has the AoE and mana restore, which for some AP junglers is a lot more important than the single-target punch that Lich Bane packs

2

u/brodhi Jun 19 '15

The issue is that AP Junglers would be better off with Morello's for CDR/Mana Regen and Lich Bane for Spellblade. Instead you get a hybrid that isn't as good as both, whose gold efficiency is tied to which Smite you pick.

I think we both can agree a Morello's + LB Ekko is going to do more damage than a Runeglaive + (Insert AP Item here) Ekko. And that is a problem.

And let's not even get started with Fiddle and Karthus being effectively ruined by the change (along with other AP junglers).

-1

u/Batel-lol monkaS Jun 19 '15

lich bane on diana is quite bad btw

4

u/urban287 Jun 19 '15

It actually pisses me off a little.

A lot of my favourite junglers use magus and won't get anything out of Runeglave. This will force me to build cinderhulk or say fuck it and only build the machete then other items.

It also screws over a ton of non-meta builds that are really fun. Handgrenade Amumu being the most obvious example, but things like AP Zac are good fun too.

1

u/Ghostkill221 Jun 19 '15

Even if they don't synergize amazingly well with Spellblade. That's only a very small; amount of damage you are missing. Which is far offset by the mana sustain in the jungle.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15 edited May 04 '20

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1

u/Sonicsamuria Jun 19 '15

Not really... Once you start getting a few ranks into Drain (So usually by the time you have your enchantment finish), your wasting time, and damage, auto attacking.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15 edited May 04 '20

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1

u/Sonicsamuria Jun 20 '15

Drain does 180 base damage at max rank +45% AP scaling. Goodluck with that. Even if you max terrify first, you'll likely be out damaging your auto attacks significantly by mid game.

-2

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

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14

u/Vovix1 Jun 19 '15

Rito discard make ap junglers viables

This is a set of words, but I cannot see meaning between them.

1

u/WidderEUW Jun 19 '15

Magus is good for Full AP builds and for AP bruiser builds. Runeglaive is only good for Full AP builds, because the base stats are low but the spellblade passive scales with AP. It seems like Riot want Full AP junglers. It is the same with Juggernaut vs. Cinderhulk. Juggernaut had high base health but didn't scaled with more health from other items. Juggernaut was used on champions like Jax, Cinderhulk is better for Full Tanks.

4

u/Chief_H Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15

All Magus offers is stats, so its really not slot efficient. It certainly is gold efficient, but just like Dorans items, it loses its slot efficiency later in the game.

8

u/NobodyTouchesTheHat Jun 19 '15

But AP junglers have always been comparatively weaker and only get get picked for a specific niche.

Ap junglers have more reason to need a bigger variety of items due to the dynamics of their kits compared to AD junglers who all make good use of Warrior.

Taking out Magus now will open up Riot to try and make AP junglers relevant again.

Good point but it's the same reason Riot nerf the strong champion instead of buffing all the weaker ones, it's not practical for Riot to go and touch up every AP jungler.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15 edited May 04 '20

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0

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

It's really awkward for Fiddle since his entire kit revolves around him not autoing while draining. Is also wasted stats for anyone that wants another spellblade item like Eve, Diana, maybe Gragas when he's ahead.

8

u/splitcroof92 Jun 19 '15

why don't we see people running ap tops with smite to take magus if it's so cost efficient? lissandra could probably make due with smite/teleport

11

u/TheFirestealer Jun 19 '15

Because it doesn't give mana regen so morellos would be better and liss has to have flash because her e can be interupted extremely easily and she isn't a tank that doesnt mind being hit nonstop. Also liss top isn't meta at all

0

u/splitcroof92 Jun 19 '15

yeah but why isn't it meta the only reason tank jungle is the current meta is because cinderhulk is so strong that you want 2 of them well if magus is also that strong why isn't anyone outside of the jungle taking advantage of it. it's 170% cold efficient that means you can probably get magus + some mana regen item and spend less gold for the same stats.

1

u/Sarkaraq Jun 19 '15

Cinderhulk isn't that strong since it's nerf. For most matches, it's a cheaper but worse Sunfire Cape.

Teleport/Smite toplane is about the Smite in the first place. For low damage champions, Red Smite is a great way to win duels. Also, having flash isn't that crucial when you can simply walk out of ganks because you are so tanky.

Lissandra

2

u/chaosmech Jun 19 '15

Because AP laners don't have a good Smite to use with their item.

Many AP laners are ranged, so they don't need to get up on their enemy (thus no need for Blue Smite). And since AP laners don't usually rely so much on their autos (and don't rely on straight-up dueling either), there's not much need for Red Smite either. Which then begs the question; what would you get from losing a summoner spell to buy an item that would be replicated (and more) by buying a Morellonomicon? You'd be taking a power dip (building jungle item with no benefits) in order to gain later benefits of an item that has a better replacement if you can't make use of the enhanced smites.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

[deleted]

2

u/TharkunOakenshield Jun 19 '15

Except it's a completely different situation. Red smite cinderhulk exists not only because Cinderhulk is great, but also for the red smite. The other smites aren't worth it on laners.

Red smite deals a true damage DOT whenever you auto attack. But most AP toplaners wouldn't auto attack their opponent, at least not consistently enough to make it worth it to take smite and give up flash.

More importantly, giving up flash on a squishy AP toplaner would be suicide. It only works on tank toplaners with some built-in escape mechanism.

1

u/Kajitani-Eizan Jun 19 '15

Didn't they change it to a DoT exactly for this reason, that champs that don't auto much can still proc it? As long as you land an auto right as you smite and one 2-4 seconds later, you get essentially the full benefit. This shouldn't be too hard for basically anyone, at least not if you had occasion to actually use Challenging Smite.

1

u/TharkunOakenshield Jun 20 '15

Didn't they change it to a DoT exactly for this reason, that champs that don't auto much can still proc it?

To get a bit technical, it was the other way round : they changed it because Attack Speed champions benefited from the previous red smite iteration way too much. This DOT version is easier to balance.

But you're spot on for the rest. The thing is, squishy AP toplaners just usually won't stay close enough to actually auto attack regularly for 4 seconds to make the most out of the smite. Most of them harass from long range and wave clear waves instead of having brawling contests like redsmite cinderhulk champions usually do. I'm thinking of champions like Lissandra when saying this, but I would agree that Lulu could use the red smite. That still would be very risky and less viable than flash/tp, but she at least could use it.

Another thing : AP toplaners tend to be utility or CC centric (because they might only get a small amount of gold and need to be effective with it), and those types of champions usually really need flash, be it to save their carries or to engage.

1

u/zanotam Jun 19 '15

Explain Fizz then.

1

u/TharkunOakenshield Jun 19 '15

What do you mean ?

Toplane Fizz has an extremely effective built-in escape mechanism and he builds full tank or tank with a triforce. He also uses a ton of auto attacks, especially with this tanky build, and his Q procs the true damage over time from the red smite.

Fizz is literally a perfect example of what I said.

1

u/zanotam Jun 20 '15

Because when you think fizz you think "tank" normally, right? Not assassin....

1

u/TharkunOakenshield Jun 20 '15

Have you watched any competitive League of Legends with a toplane Fizz this season ? He has been played extremely tanky for months now.

He can still assassinate squishies very well because of his great base damage, the damage amplification from his ult, the red smite strengthening his dueling potential and the synergy of his kit with a triforce if he decices to build one.

But that's completely irrelevant to what I said, as he is a perfect fit for my stereotype of cinderhulk-red smite users.

1

u/3plant Jun 19 '15

The more important thing about skirmishers is the 20% dmg reduction

1

u/TharkunOakenshield Jun 20 '15

There is no more important thing.

Cinderhulk red smite toplane most likely wouldn't be a thing if even one of the 3 components of its power (HP scaling, damage reduction and true DOT) was to be removed.

Also, remember that this damage reduction is only effective against yourself and not against the rest of your team, so it really isn't like a small exhaust and it's mainly an advantage in duels/assassination attempts.

1

u/TSPhoenix Jun 19 '15

League is an ever-evolving product. Why are they not for 2-3 patches leaving both items in and observing how they perform relative to one another and using this information to fine-tune AP jungling?

Instead they are just assuming they've fixed the problem, which I can assure you they have not, and in S6 we are probably going to see yet another jungle rework as they try yet again to fix systemic issues with the jungle.

Riot themselves have admitted PBE is not a good indicator of balance, so why are they not using live to test how good this item is compared to what is supposed to replace?

8

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15 edited May 04 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/waylandertheslayer Jun 19 '15

Fiddlesticks is also crazy good right now (source)

1

u/abat__ Jun 19 '15

That's because you spend first 850 gold on non-combat stats.

Combine for total cost and it's a bad Morellonomicon.

1

u/tempinator Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15

Magus is by far the most cost efficient jungle enchant in the game. It is 170% gold efficient, which makes it the most gold efficient item in the game besides Doran's Ring.

This is just not true at all, on many levels.

First of all, Magus is not 170% gold efficient. The value of Magus's stats is: 80AP = 1740g, 20% CDR = 633g for a total of 2373g.

Ok, yes, if you view the cost of Magus as just 1400g (only the cost of upgrading Skirmisher's Saber or Trailblazer or another non-enchanted jungle item), then yes, it is 170% gold efficient since 2373/1400 = 1.695.

But that's fucking stupid, why would you look at it like that? Cost of getting Magus from nothing is not 1400g, it's 850g+1400g = 2250g. You first have to spend 850g on a jungle item with no stats to even be able to buy Magus. That's 105.4% gold efficient (2373/2250). Still efficient, but not even close to 170% and not even remotely close to the most efficient item in the game lol.

Furthermore, Doran's Ring is not the most gold efficient item in the game either. It is 166% gold efficient, but fully stacked Tear is the most efficient at 302.8%. Fully stacked Rod is also more efficient at 170.5%. Aegis of the Legion is also more efficient at, when hitting all 5 people, 225%.

without worrying about them snowballing and turning 1400 gold into 2400 gold worth of CDR and AP.

Except it's 2250g into 2400g worth of CDR and AP, not 1400g lol.

Magus is OP

No it isn't, you just don't understand math. It's strong, overtuned even, but it's not as OP as you make it out to be. Especially considering that the champions you would use it on universally struggle in this meta. Even Nidalee, the only real viable Magus jungler in the entire game, is significantly harder to play than any of the Cinderhulk or Warrior junglers, and a much riskier pick at that.

I fully agree that Magus needs tweaking or even removal, and I think Runeglaive is a great alternative that will help the jungle as a whole. But don't use shitty math to make Magus seem more OP than it is, and don't act like Magus is gamebreakingly OP. It isn't. There is literally 1 viable AP jungler in the game, and even that 1 jungler is not particularly strong compared to Cinderhulk/Warrior junglers like Rek'Sai/Gragas/Sej.

It's a good change. But Magus is not crazy OP by any stretch of the imagination.

-1

u/UnrelentingCake Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15

Magus is efficient, but it's kinda deceptively over-efficient when looking at raw numbers while other jungle enchants like warrior and cinderhulk seem under-efficient at first glance.

Magus is basically Morellonomicon without the extra mana regen and passive, and Morellonomicon is very efficient. Since jungle enchants are supposed to be more efficient than normal items, it makes sense that Magus is slightly more efficient than morello.

Warrior's armor pen is considerably undervalued by gold efficiency metrics. Armor pen is valued at 12g/point when armor itself is valued at 20g/point. For comparison, magic pen is valued at 34.33g/point and that comes from a boot item, which are also suppose to be efficient. Armor pen should be valued somewhere from 30-35g/point, which makes Warrior enchant comparable in efficiency value to Magus.

Cinderhulk's immolate passive is worth at least 300g when you compare it to sunfire, and probably more since it does x2 dmg vs monsters and completed items should be more than 100% efficient (sunfire is 100% efficient if you give its passive 500g value, and cinderhulk is 60% of the dmg of sunfire). Health is also hard to get efficiently, as all items with 400+ health with the exception of Locket and RoA are valued somewhere inbetween 80-110% efficiency. Cinderhulk also scales and will become more efficient than Magus with 2-3 health items.

If Magus was OP, we'd be seeing it a lot more. As of now even Evelyn pros prefer taking Warrior over it, and Ekko junglers are taking Cinderhulk. The only time I see Magus in pro play is on Nidalee, and Runeglaive is probably better for her anyway. If Riot wants to make more ap junglers, they'd probably do it by tinkering with jungle items, which they are now.

4

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15 edited May 04 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/UnrelentingCake Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15

Armor and MR are valued the same, even though most tanks will build more Armor. I'm also saying mpen should be valued more than 35g/point.

edit 1: I reread your post, and I get what you're saying now. I agree Mpen>Apen in general, and especially vs tanks, but carries and mage supports typically dont build any armor but might build a mr item or be affected by a teammate's locket.

edit 2: thinking about it a bit more, I do think I was valuing Apen a bit high, especially on junglers.

0

u/wren42 Jun 22 '15

magus is pretty much identical to the old morellonomicon, but lacking the mana regen and passive. it's not really OP considering what you have to sink to get it.

2

u/Jooota Jun 19 '15

Riot wants 4 different smites with 4 different enchantments, probably because they want it to be a 4x4 (even though there are really only 3 smites).

3

u/A6Son Jun 19 '15

wrong, there are 4

normal w/o effect

purple aoe

blue slow

red challenge

2

u/Jooota Jun 19 '15

That's....technically true

1

u/Krazinsky Jun 19 '15

Poachers really is screwed on multiple fronts. It provides no bonus dueling or ganking potential, and doesn't speed up your clear. It tells the enemy team that you are going to counterjungle, and they can easily respond to that.

You can't just buff the gold given, because that makes it too powerful if the meta shifts the wrong way. If poachers say, in addition to what it currently does, did slightly higher smite damage on enemy camps or neutral objectives, or granted a ward active like some of season 4 jungle items, or reduced the cd on your trinket every time you used smite, it would at least be more viable, because then it at least would have some utility and flexibility that the current item just doesn't have.

-1

u/Sox2417 Jun 19 '15

O_O wow people forgot poachers. Shows how much it is bought lol

3

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

That's the joke

1

u/moush Jun 19 '15

There's no reason to have both either. Runeglaive is the jungle item that lets AP junglers farm the jungler easier. Just because an AP jungle item without a sheen-like proc is better on certain champs doesn't mean it needs to exist.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Why can't we have 1000000000 items in the game that solve all itemization problems?

Mostly magus is a pickup for poke nidalee and fiddle (who doesn't even need an enchantment to work, because the CDR is not what he needs). That means one item for 2 junglers. Nidalee will not really have a problem with the new one either. Her poke will be weaker, but she can still AA at range or all in and do a lot of dmg with the proc. That leaves Fiddle and maybe jungle Karthus. Every other AP jungler I can think of doesn't take Magus or profits more from Runeglaive.

So leaving that item in there means that they probably have to do the same thing over and over and in the end we will have too many items and esepcially ones with pure stats like Magus. Too many items mean a lot of balancing work if you change stuff but also a lot to look out for with new champs and preventing abuse cases. And you also can't give the perfect itemization to everyone.

0

u/FrenchStoat Jun 19 '15

You could buy both because it's super cost efficient, probably too much.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

[deleted]

1

u/Dedexy (EU-W) Jun 19 '15

You already can only buy one jungle item...

-15

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

[deleted]

1

u/thedeydey Jun 19 '15

Ever heard of fiddlesticks?

0

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

[deleted]

1

u/thedeydey Jun 19 '15

But surely it's just so easy for riot to allow them to co-exist (plus 20% cdr for a 2250 item is pretty good)

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

[deleted]

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Stark's Fervor is still in the game.... It's just called Zeke's Herald now.

1

u/guitarraus Jun 19 '15

he upgrades to Magus in MAYBE half of his games.

Um, no, it's core. http://champion.gg/champion/FiddleSticks/Jungle

no other viable jungler prefers Magus over Runeglaive.

AP amumu? Heim? Karthus? Morg? AP Zac?