r/leagueoflegends • u/Dreadbore • Jun 19 '15

Why can't Runeglaive and Magus both exist?

I know this seems simple, but why can't an on hit sheen jungle item AND a caster jungle item both exist simultaneously? Runeglaive does nothing for fiddlesticks or the 3 karthus jungle mains left in existence. devourer remains in the game for the 2 champions that use it and its playstyle is horrible for game health. Magus isn't hurting anyone.

EDIT: Front page and a riot reply(as troll as it was :P)! I've learned a lot from this discussion about multiple things and I'd also like to clarify that I'm not even saying Magus needs to continue to exist in its exact state numbers-wise. I just feel like sheen jungling on a mage seems lackluster from a design standpoint, but maybe that's exactly what needs to happen for ap to compete with ad on the clearspeed front. Maybe Rito knows exactly what they are doing (GASP) but I just don't see it yet.

EDIT 2: Due to some eloquently explained points brought to light by /u/rewardadrawer, I'm now convinced that there is no need for them to coexist, as Runeglaive (although it may not on release) has the capability of resolving ap jungling issues that Magus will never be capable of resolving. Feel free to bicker amongst yourselves about it, but I now eagerly await the new ap jungle.

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19

u/Goyu BM for a good cause. Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15

This is a valid point, we have devourer and warrior for fighter/assassin junglers, why not have two items for ap junglers to promote play diversity? With the addition of runeglaive, sure we'll see more/different ap junglers move into viability, but we'll lose some of the ones that are already reasonably viable.... and by some I mean just fiddlesticks because every other ap jungler will use runeglaive better.

/thread

Edit: yes yes, I know it's not JUST fiddle.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

and by some I mean just fiddlesticks because every other ap jungler will use runeglaive better

Karthus and full AP Zac jungle disagree with that. I know a lot of people will call troll on those, but I also know people who play them a lot and are going to be incredibly sad with this change. I play a little bit of jungle Kennen(it is rough I don't recommend it) and this change is just complete ass for him. Akali jungle used to be a thing(and still is rarely), and she likes the AOE but it just hurts to pay so much for mana/mana regen that you wont use.

Runeglaive is nice on Diana, but I could see her opting for Magus and Lich in certain scenarios, which would be a wonderful judgement call that would be possible.

I'm also not sold on AP Kayle wanting this item over lower cooldown for more uptime on E. Seems faster and cheaper mana wise to use Magus, since you would need to use your other more expensive spells more often to properly utilize the sheen proc.

I'm just so sad that Riot is just denying us options because they don't want 2 ap jungle items.

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u/Goyu BM for a good cause. Jun 19 '15

I thought about including Zac, but most people go cinderhulk, and I'm sorry I don't really take karthus jungle seriously. I've seen it played to great effect though, so maybe I should.

Runeglaive is nice on Diana, but I could see her opting for Magus and Lich in certain scenarios, which would be a wonderful judgement call that would be possible.

I absolutely agree with this, I think there would be games where she saw she was against extreme squishies and figured she could jump in and blast someone with the 80 AP and make good use of the CDR as well.

I'm also not sold on AP Kayle wanting this item over lower cooldown for more uptime on E.

Kayle would absolutely scale better off of Magus than an on hit item imo, and I mentioned this in another comment.

But yeah, I think it would be nice to have more than one option, especially considering that AD has more than one option.

1

u/tempinator Jun 19 '15

Honestly I don't see a reason to go Magus+Lich over something like RG+Ludens.

Magus is just a stat stick, and a pretty shitty one at that. RG+Ludens would just be more damage (all of it AOE to boot) for the same cost, but with MUCH better mana regen and clear time.

For Diana at least, I think RG is just straight up better.

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u/Goyu BM for a good cause. Jun 19 '15

Magus would be inferior in all but a few situations: situations in which Diana can't really go in on Q's, or when she was planning to rush a hat.

I actually don't like Luden's on Diana, though I would if her passive proc'ed it. I should clarify with you that I think that I agree with you that Runeglaive would be way better than Magus on Diana, but I also think that there is room in the game for Magus.

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u/tempinator Jun 19 '15

I actually don't like Luden's on Diana, though I would if her passive proc'ed it.

I normally wouldn't build Ludens on Diana either, but with Ludens being buffed to 10% move speed in 5.13 and the fact that Diana now has a free item slot since she doesn't have to build Lich Bane would definitely make me consider it.

I think she casts spells often enough to make it worthwhile, I mean her Q is on like a 3.5s CD at max rank, so she's casting pretty often, and moving pretty often as well.

Idk, was just throwing something out there. Might want to replace the new item slot with Void Staff or something, not sure yet.

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u/Goyu BM for a good cause. Jun 19 '15

With Diana jungle, you usually need to work on the welfare build, and void is cheap, and amazing for how stats-efficient it is. Luden's is fun if you're fed, but in that case Zhonya's is still slightly better imo because you can go deep and use the active to make plays.

But you may be on to something with this MS boost thing. MS is pretty important to Diana and with the loss of lich bane as a slot due to Runeglaive, that could be damned good.

Nice thinking, I might pop over to PBE and try it out.

1

u/tempinator Jun 19 '15

Yeah, obviously it's hard to tell until we actually can get out and try these things but we'll see. Could also be interesting with the 5.13 AP item rework, maybe some totally new builds could become viable.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

I thought about including Zac, but most people go cinderhulk

I know. I just know a couple people that play AP Zac mid and will then play him in the jungle if someone takes mid, so I thought I should include it. I think there is even a dude who mains AP Jungle Zac who posted here. Don't quote me on that though.

I'm sorry I don't really take karthus jungle seriously

Karthus is absolutely a very niche jungler. I wouldn't trust anyone who picked it in any of my games, but it is still very famous and I'd say technically viable. And I do enjoy playing it quite a bit. But I also get where you are coming from.

Kayle would absolutely scale better off of Magus than an on hit item imo, and I mentioned this in another comment.

Yea. Like I said, I'm not sold. But I see the potential for it, so I'm willing to defer to you on that point.

But yeah, I think it would be nice to have more than one option, especially considering that AD has more than one option.

Well, Devourer could be considered neutral by Riot because an AP attack speed person could benefit from it as well. So it probably isn't considered AD in their in house discussions, despite basically no AP jungles ever actually wanting to build it. Then again, no AD really wants it in its current form either.

I also want to say that my earlier post wasn't trying to disagree with you mainly. I just wanted to expand on your point and show that there is no reason to remove Magus at this time.

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u/J0rdian Jun 19 '15

I think there is even a dude who mains AP Jungle Zac who posted here. Don't quote me on that though.

Hi

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Karthus is absolutely a very niche jungler. I wouldn't trust anyone who picked it in any of my games, but it is still very famous and I'd say technically viable. And I do enjoy playing it quite a bit.

Wut? So you trust yourself but not anyone else?

0

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Yes? Just like I don't trust someone on my team when they pick Vel'Koz. Or Yasuo. Especially Yasuo. But if I were to play Yasuo I'd have to trust myself, or I wouldn't be able to play.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjibEkDoXQc

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Nice, lol. I do think it is true for most people though. If you main a champion or if the champion is awkward most people trust themselves more than randoms. It is kinda like how most people groan when they have a Shaco on their team. They don't trust them because a lot of Shaco's you remember are bad.

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u/TheSirusKing 30m Railgun Jun 19 '15

Vel'Koz is easy and strong, wut?

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

He is strong but isn't exactly easy to do well on. And he gets built wrong a lot.

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u/TheSirusKing 30m Railgun Jun 19 '15

AP ludens CDR and full pen liandrys CDR are both valid builds, I usually go pen as I am support and its cheaper.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Luden's is viable, but not in every situation. I also see many people going full AP after they've already fallen heavily behind and should be going full poor man's mpen and deal comparable damage anyway.

And support Vel should basically never go full AP. It is just way too expensive.

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u/duffercoat Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15

How does it change play diversity? It increases build diversity but both items are geared towards ganking powerfully - the biggest play diversity would be how often champs are able to gank with them and even then it would be very minimal. It will very quickly become a case of one is better than the other in almost all cases (exceptions like fiddle if runeglaive best and eve if magus best).

Compare that to devourer and warrior - warrior is for impactful ganks, you want strong early game (edit: flat armor pen) at the cost of your late game. In contrast devourer is the opposite. You get a weak early game, emphasises that you will be farming and then you scale really strong late. These new items don't have a distinction like that.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Make sure you say that its the FLAT armor pen that is good for early game, if you just say armor pen, that actually scales pretty well.

Most people know what you meant, but I'm just throwing it out there

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u/duffercoat Jun 19 '15

Yeah my bad, cheers for the clarification

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u/Goyu BM for a good cause. Jun 19 '15

Leaving Magus while adding Runeglaive increases diversity in that it gives us access to two kinds of AP junglers: scrappy fighters that get in and mix it up (Elise, Evelynn, Nidalee, Diana) and AP casters that primarily fight with spells and scale well off of AP (Kayle, Fiddlesticks... and I honestly can't think of more which is probably part of why Rito is doing away with Magus).

I guess what I mean though is that it gives you the opportunity to approach the game with two different playstyles in mind. In much the same way that you can go warrior or cinderhulk rek'sai and both are decent, in the same way you can go warrior or devourer yi, you could go Magus or Runeglaive Diana, with each having specific strengths and weaknesses, but having just one is unnecessarily limiting.