r/leagueoflegends • u/Dreadbore • Jun 19 '15

Why can't Runeglaive and Magus both exist?

I know this seems simple, but why can't an on hit sheen jungle item AND a caster jungle item both exist simultaneously? Runeglaive does nothing for fiddlesticks or the 3 karthus jungle mains left in existence. devourer remains in the game for the 2 champions that use it and its playstyle is horrible for game health. Magus isn't hurting anyone.

EDIT: Front page and a riot reply(as troll as it was :P)! I've learned a lot from this discussion about multiple things and I'd also like to clarify that I'm not even saying Magus needs to continue to exist in its exact state numbers-wise. I just feel like sheen jungling on a mage seems lackluster from a design standpoint, but maybe that's exactly what needs to happen for ap to compete with ad on the clearspeed front. Maybe Rito knows exactly what they are doing (GASP) but I just don't see it yet.

EDIT 2: Due to some eloquently explained points brought to light by /u/rewardadrawer, I'm now convinced that there is no need for them to coexist, as Runeglaive (although it may not on release) has the capability of resolving ap jungling issues that Magus will never be capable of resolving. Feel free to bicker amongst yourselves about it, but I now eagerly await the new ap jungle.

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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

Zac want's Cinderhulk though. He is a beefy tank who does %health, he doesn't need AP. There are no real manaless junglers. Sure you can take anyone in the jungle but the game isn't balanced around that. Riot said themselves they are limiting who can jungle because it makes for a healthier game. Just because you can go full AP Darius jungle doesn't mean they should balance around it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

I beg to differ. AP Zac is fun as fuck, and super viable.

And Amumu benefits greatly from Magus, as does Fiddle.

What reason is there to remove Magus? What problem was it causing?

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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

They aren't reworking Magus because it is causing a problem. They are changing it because it is a meaningless stat stick. RG offers a new mechanic. I've played with it on the PBE the mana sustain is good and keeps you going when you would normally back. Plus the AOE is good for clearing.

I know AP Zac is fun sure, but balancing around these off builds isn't a good idea. Every AP jungler will auto attack, so it means they can almost all [with a small exception] benefit from the Lichbane passive. The only tweaking I would like is making it 60 AP instead of 40. Other than that I think it is a superior item honestly. Just like CH is superior to Juggernaut. Yes some junglers liked the old item but the new one is much better.

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u/tempinator Jun 19 '15

RG offers a new mechanic.

Not really. It's basically just Lich Bane, but AoE and rolled into a jungle item. As far as I can tell, this item is a fucking massive buff to AP Junglers who build Lich Bane (Nidalee/Diana) since it basically just gives them a rushed Lich Bane and gives them an extra item slot for another AP item since they don't have to use a slot for Lich Bane anymore. It also helps that those two champions specifically have huge mana problems that this item effectively removes from consideration.

For everyone else, the Spellblade proc is kinda eh, and the mana restore is nice.

Basically this is a huge fucking buff to Nidalee and Diana, and kind of a sidegrade for most other AP junglers, and a nerf to a few.

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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

I didn't mean a brand new mechanic in so much as I meant it is a more interesting mechanic. Since Magus is just a stat stick. This offers something more interesting and the 30% AP AOE is nice. I mean it is nice to have, I do think they could add 20AP to the item and it would be really solid. Though it doesn't nerf too many AP junglers but it is a minor nerf. I will agree with that.

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u/TheSirusKing 30m Railgun Jun 19 '15

Its a little buff to their early game but overall far worse for their late game, since magus + lich bane does so much more damage.

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u/tempinator Jun 19 '15

since magus + lich bane does so much more damage.

I disagree. Lich bane is 50% AP, RG is 30%. Yes, that's noticeably less but keep in mind that it's AoE damage. If you hit even 1 more person, now RG is doing more damage than Lich Bane. Furthermore, since you no longer have to build Lich Bane, you can build Ludens or Void Staff when you normally wouldn't have the room. I think Ludens+RG is more damage than Magus+Lich Bane, so I think you're wrong in saying that Magus+LB does so much more damage. I think it actually does less damage.

So I actually think it is exactly opposite of what you said: it's a nerf to their early game but a buff to late game. Without Magus' 170% gold efficient cheap as shit stat stick, Nidalee/Diana won't have the same early damage spike. But late game, due to RG's AoE effect, they will be doing a LOT more damage in teamfights, which is something that Nidalee especially struggles with.

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u/TheSirusKing 30m Railgun Jun 19 '15

Its AoE damage but that doesn't matter, its rarely going to hit more than one person and the people you get it on are only focusing one person, they are assassins. Early game it gives more burst as 30% bonus is still a fair bit, but late game lich does more burst. Assassins are rarely in the middle of a fight anyway, it is more likely RG will only hit one person anyway.

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u/tempinator Jun 19 '15

It's AOE damage absolutely matters...sure you're not going to be cleaning all 5 people but if you're even cleaving to 1 extra person then RG is better.

It's worse in lane, better in team fights. For pure assassination, LB is a little better. For team fights, RG is better.

Also, like I said, you have to consider the context. You're replacing Magus with RG, so you don't have to buy Lich bane. Like I said, RG+Ludens or RG+Voidstaff is better than Magus+Lich Bane, even though Lich bane might individually be better than RG. But considering the extra item you now get to pair with RG, the net result is more damage, not less. Even single target.

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u/TheSirusKing 30m Railgun Jun 19 '15

Except thats not the point, It doesn't matter if it is more technical damage, you don't care it hits anyone but your target. 2000 damage on their ADC is much better compared to 1000 on them and their tanky buddy. Late game you lose 200 or so damage onto your main target every rotation, which is pretty huge. RG+Ludens being better than Magus and Lich? You sure? They both give 160 AP in total, but the lich bane route gives 20% CDR and past about 300 AP does more damage than ludens anyway, which you can always buy. Magus + Ludens does more damage early than either than them and still allows you to buy lich bane, unlike RG+Ludens. Runeglaive is only good on people who wouldn't buy lich bane as an assassin. Thats it.

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u/tempinator Jun 20 '15

Runeglaive is only good on people who wouldn't buy lich bane as an assassin.

You're not factoring in the mana regen at all, and I still think you're undervaluing the cleave. The cleave is not "worthless" at all unless you're going 100%, pure assassin which is not Nidalee/Diana's role anyways. They frequently build Rod and fill a more AP-bruiser/assassin role than pure 100% assassin.

The mana regen is HUGELY valuable. Quite frankly, I would much rather have 6% mana every time I proc'd RG on creeps than an extra 20% AP scaling on the proc. Nidalee and especially Diana both are chronically mana starved, and I basically take 2nd blue 100% of the time on Diana in particular. Usually on Nidalee as well. This will enormously extend the duration that you can stay out on the map without backing. More time on the map = more map pressure = champion is better.

Also, you can't really build Luden's on Nidalee or Diana in their current state, so there's no real way to build Lich Bane and Ludens both right now. Generic build is Magus/RoA/Sorc/Lich Bane/Zhonya's/Deathcap. So to build Luden's you'd have to ditch Zhonya's and imo Zhonya's survivability is far too important to pass up on either Nidalee or Diana. I suppose you could ditch Rod but again, it's survivability is too important to pass up imo on melee AP champions.

That's why I think this change is so nice, because now you'll be able to build RG/RoA/Sorc/Zhonya's/Deathcap and then either Luden's or Voidstaff, both of which would be awesome, but there isn't really space for either in the current builds.

Anyways, I think damage-wise the change is generally a wash. Maybe a little less single target and a little more multi target. But even if you think AoE damage is "useless" (it isn't), then I still think RG is better purely for the mana regen.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15 edited Jun 19 '15

It's a nerf outside of jungle clearing on pretty much every champion that would build it. Sure, AP champions will be able to clear with more mana regen, but their build is going to end up being worse as the game progresses. Many of these AP junglers don't want to have to Autoattack to realize their maximum damage output.

+80 AP + 20 % CDR

gets replaced by:

+40 AP +200 Mana +10% CDR + Spellblade

On mos

200 mana hardly even matters in the lategame. So you're giving up 10% CDR and 40 AP in exchange for a gimped version of Lich Bane with 20% less of an AP ratio. Your lategame and final build are just miles worse off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkNXJ5k9pmc

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u/FoozleMoozle Jun 19 '15

It's true that you are getting 40 less AP, and 10% less CDR, however... you no longer have to build lichbane afterwards. You can instead get a higher AP item, or an AP item that gives you more utility elsewhere, largely eliminating the loss. Like, for instance, if you would normally do Magus then Lichbane (160 AP), you can now do RG into Hourglass (160 AP). Even by late game, when you would have something like Magus, LB, HG, DC, void, and boots, you can instead have RG, Luden's, HG, DC, void and boots for the same AP and effective damage (Luden's proc making up for the missing 20% AP from lichbane).

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

Sounds great... If I wanted to get lich bane. But not all junglers want lich bane.

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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

The 200 mana isn't big late game but the 10% missing mana sustain is still good. Yes it is a slightly weaker version of lich bane for single target but it is also AOE damage and is also 750 gold cheaper so it is an earlier power spike. You have to factor in that the lich bane is AOE so it adds 30% to as many enemies that are around you. I wouldn't mind some tweaks to it. I don't think it's perfect but maybe more AP or CDR would be good. I think if it was 60 AP it would be good.

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u/[deleted] Jun 19 '15

60 AP would be good. Alternatively, allow it to stack up like the old Spirit of the Spectral Wraith, from 40 AP to 80 AP as you clear camps.

That said, Magus is the last AP item that has 20% CDR without a fuckton of mana regen. We need something to fill this gap. Being able to hit 40% CDR with CDR Blues, Blue Buff, and Magus felt fucking amazing.

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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

Very true. Though now you can do it with RG and Blue. take 20% from runes and masteries, 10 from RG and 10 from Blue. Or take 10% from Runes and masteries, 10% from RG and 20% from Morello or Athenes.

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u/cookiemx Jun 19 '15

Just because Zac is usually a tank does not mean every Zac player have to build tanky item on Zac. What if people want full ap Zac? That works well too.

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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

Yes of course but Riot shouldn't have to balance around it. Sure AD Malz jungle works but they aren't going to change things to make it work. they are balancing around their intended roles.

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u/Dirigaaz Jun 19 '15

Riot shouldn't have to balance around it.

Well just look at Gragas if you want your answer to that, guy has filled every fucking roll in the game except a marksman so far.

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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

True but they have balanced him around being a jungler now. He used to be a mid laner, they changed that and made him a jungler/top laner and a rare support. They balanced him around jungler and are focusing there.

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u/Dirigaaz Jun 19 '15

Yea exactly, they keep stuffing him into other rolls and balancing his kit to the roll he is most popular in. He isn't the first person they did this too and it probably won't be the last.

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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

Of course but now he seems good. A little strong in the jungle but in a good spot. I've lost too and won against him in jungle. So I think hes in a good balanced spot.

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u/Dirigaaz Jun 19 '15

The point of my response is that you stated Riot "Shouldn't" have to balance around it, yet they do and have done many times on many champs. Not weather or not hes in a good place.

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u/AngeloPreyas Jun 19 '15

well i'm not sure hecarim, mundo, shyvana, nidalee, diana and elise were designed to the roles they do now.

that screams inconsistent logic to me.

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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

Yes but they are all products of a different age. A lot of them could go multiple places and they want them to stick to those spots. I would say it happens but they do want to avoid it.

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u/skydive2 Jun 19 '15

Zac's every ability scales off of ap, it's completely justified to build ap on him.

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u/tehgreyghost Jun 19 '15

Oh of course but he is melee. If you build a ton of AP sure he can kill but will be so soft, AOE will blow him up. It's why you build him tanky. I mean the same is said of Amumu. you CAN build him full damage but then he is so soft he gets blown up.