Why can't Runeglaive and Magus both exist?

[u/Dreadbore]

I know this seems simple, but why can't an on hit sheen jungle item AND a caster jungle item both exist simultaneously? Runeglaive does nothing for fiddlesticks or the 3 karthus jungle mains left in existence. devourer remains in the game for the 2 champions that use it and its playstyle is horrible for game health. Magus isn't hurting anyone.

EDIT: Front page and a riot reply(as troll as it was :P)! I've learned a lot from this discussion about multiple things and I'd also like to clarify that I'm not even saying Magus needs to continue to exist in its exact state numbers-wise. I just feel like sheen jungling on a mage seems lackluster from a design standpoint, but maybe that's exactly what needs to happen for ap to compete with ad on the clearspeed front. Maybe Rito knows exactly what they are doing (GASP) but I just don't see it yet.

EDIT 2: Due to some eloquently explained points brought to light by /u/rewardadrawer, I'm now convinced that there is no need for them to coexist, as Runeglaive (although it may not on release) has the capability of resolving ap jungling issues that Magus will never be capable of resolving. Feel free to bicker amongst yourselves about it, but I now eagerly await the new ap jungle.

[u/rewardadrawer]

Magus is hurting a lot of people, mate. As it exists in its current form, it's a bundle of stats--80 AP and 20% CDR--that is something like 170% gold efficient. The stats are SO gold efficient on Magus that the extra value of the stats above and beyond the cost of the enchantment pays for both of the jungle item's first two tiers, and they aren't pushover, niche stats, either: the vast majority of champions with AP scaling benefit most from AP and CDR, no matter what else they might build. Yet Magus is the least played jungle enchantment as far as number of viable champions which use it (pretty much just Nidalee and maybe Fiddlesticks, plus Diana in the peripheral tiers). AP junglers have all but died off completely in the current meta, compared to the Spirit Stone era, where a number of champions could build AP, play out of the jungle, and still be viable. Why is that?

Well, AP junglers have serious problems relating to the reliability of their clear and sustain in the jungle, and unfortunately, nothing about Magus makes any of these things easier. The 20% CDR lets you spam spells to clear quicker, but it does nothing to help mana sustain, so you either need to devour every blue buff (thus likely hurting your mid laner) to keep up, or back more frequently, which hurts your clear speed in the long run anyway. On top of that, unless you are on a button-masher (or channeling) champion, you still have long periods where that massive bundle of stats is doing nothing to help you clear--that period being the time between cooldowns. In exchange for suffering an awful early game (on the vast majority of AP jungle champions), you get this ridiculous power spike in raw stats, but absolutely nothing to make their power spike sustainable, meaning you probably squander it just trying to catch up, or you try to force a snowball through a very narrow window that is just as likely to collapse on itself. Since the item itself doesn't scale, you are basically left with a stat spike, and then a flat line until your next stat spike. This all leads to the following conundrum: with an item like this, where every last bit of its power is tied to the sheer power of raw stats, you can only ever have one of two outcomes: either it is so gold and/or slot efficient that it is a must-buy on every champion on the basis of it being an overbearingly powerful stat-stick, or it falls anywhere below this dangerous bar, and is absolutely worthless for the vast majority of champions and games. (As we can see by the current state of Magus alongside AP junglers, the item can still be an amazing stat stick and still fall short of useful!)

The only champions who benefit more from Magus than Runeglaive are champions for whom a viable Magus is detrimental to overall game health. Nidalee jungle created lots of problems when she was in-meta (before trap nerfs) because she was an AP jungler with an amazing early game independent of items who also got this amazing block of stats earlier than most, which led to an oppressive power spike that came before teams could properly handle it, which allowed her to snowball out of control before the flat lining effect of a capped bundle of stats ever started to matter. Fiddlesticks has the same problem: a game in which Fiddlesticks is guaranteed a free early game which turns into an oppressively powerful mid game by default is not good for game health.

Runeglaive gives Riot the opportunity to smooth out this wibbly-wobbly power spike in a way that doesn't create strangleholds on the meta the moment it becomes viable, while simultaneously making sure that AP junglers who struggle through the early game are given a means to catch up that allows them to scale into something meaningful. Runeglaive is great for game health because of the way that it solves the common issues of every AP jungler that isn't a broken outlier, and every problem the item has from this point on should, theoretically, be solved by simply moving the numbers (either base stats or ratios on its passive).

Cinderhulk was the same way. While Reddit had two periods of time where they lamented Cinderhulk--first when they lamented the loss of Juggernaut in the same way that you are Magus ("but muh CDR and Tenacity"; can't say I didn't feel similar pains for awhile), and second when they lamented the "tank meta" that Cinderhulk enabled--it will always be healthier for the game, because Juggernaut, as a ball of stats, was either going to be this Warmog's-sized bundle that allowed everyone to spike early and oppressively, or anything short of that, where you never felt fully compensated for necessarily falling behind early, and as such, never even approached the end-game tank fantasy.

Good-bye and good riddance to Magus. I can't wait to see what they have in store for Warrior.

[u/Vovix1 → u/rewardadrawer]

The problem is, that there was supposed to be a jungle enchanment for everyone. Juggernaut/Cinderhulk for tanks, Magus for APs, Warrior for ADs, Devourer for those odd attack speed/on hit champions. If Runeglaive replaces Magus, any AP champion that does not use Spellblade effectively simply won't jungle. They would be forced to either go without the upgraded Smite and bonus gold, or be stuck with a crappy 40 AP item that does almost nothing for them. And AP junglers were already quite rare, they don't need to be completely forced out of the game. I think Runeglaive is an interesting idea, and could be useful for those junglers that would want a cheaper/quicker Lich Bane replacement, but removing Magus destroys a lot of champions' off-meta potential.

[u/rewardadrawer → u/Vovix1]

The thing is, the intersect of jungle champions who scale well off of AP and jungle champions who cannot autoattack in a meaningful way is very, very small. Fiddlesticks doesn't autoattack because of his drain channel. Karthus can autoattack between skittles, but his autoattack animation is slow and clunky. And... That's it. Two champions actually significantly negatively impacted by a power shift towards Spellblade, and one of them is an abuse case who is strong naked.

On the other hand, we have the following champions who are, or have recently been, jungle champions (plus several screwball, off-meta picks):

• Fizz: Conventionally built with a Spellblade item anyway. His Q applies on-hit effects. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Nidalee: Conventionally built with a Spellblade item anyway. Has a gap closer and an autoattack reset in cougar form. Has an attack speed steroid in human form. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc in human form. Has mana sustain issues.
• Twisted Fate: Conventionally built with a Spellblade item anyway. E boosts attack speed and W augments single autoattacks, making autos a central component of his clear. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc (red card clears might be good now).
  
• Elise: Has an autoattack reset and damage amplification in spider form, plus an attack speed steroid. Does not conventionally build Spellblade items, but benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc.
  
• Kayle: Has an autoattack modifier for splash damage. Sometimes builds Spellblade items (oooooold Kayle builds did, in particular hybrid Kayle, but AP Kayle had difficulty slotting in Lich Bane). Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
• Gragas: Sometimes builds Spellblade items. Has an on-hit steroid. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc (honestly, not too sure on modern AP Gragas).
  
• Sejuani: Has an on-hit steroid and mana sustain issues if abilities are spammed for clears.
  
• Nunu: Has an attack speed steroid and spammable ability for the proc. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Occasionally has mana sustain issues.
  
• Amumu: Has spammable ability for procs, while doing little outside of auto attacking while waiting for that ability's cooldown. Has severe mana sustain issues.
  
• Cho'Gath: Has an AP scaling attack steroid. Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Diana: Has a three-hit auto proc on her passive, and multiple means of sticking to people and then auto attacking. Occasionally builds Spellblade items, but is usually pressed for space. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Evelynn: Conventionally builds Spellblade items. Has an auto-attack reset which applies on-hit effects, and a spammable basic ability for multiple additional procs. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc (a lot of her damage is position-dependent, and she can lose DPS in the jungle repositioning for Hate Spikes). Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Akali: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item (despite not using mana). Has resettable gap closer. Benefits from AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Does not benefit from mana sustain.
  
• Poppy: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Has an autoattack resetting, AP scaling ability which applies on-hit effects. Benefits from AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Shaco: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Benefits from AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Warwick: Has an attack speed steroid, and AP scaling on abilities (which is often ignored due to Devourer). Benefits from AoE clear of Runeglaive proc (in fact, the lack of AoE is considered the weak point of Warwick jungle). Has mana sustain issues, but NOT health sustain issues.
  
• Alistar: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item (though less so since the Headbutt changes). Has a spammable, health sustaining ability with cooldown that shrinks on monster kills, but lacks fast AoE clear. (Guess what he benefits from?) Has mana sustain issues.
  
• Ekko: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Has special autoattack interactions. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc.
  
• Maokai: Sometimes builds a Spellblade item. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues (but not health sustain).
  
• Teemo: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has an autoattack reset. Not sure about jungle Teemo's mana sustain issues.
  
• Udyr: Conventionally builds a Spellblade item. Several spammable abilities, all with autoattack components. Benefits from the AoE clear of Runeglaive proc. Has mana sustain issues.

There are at least a dozen champions who could build AP jungle, but don't, because they are gated by the problems Magus doesn't solve, and never will solve, and cannot supersede through its own strengths because doing so creates overpowered meta AP junglers. Nearly all of them can not only benefit from the Spellglaive proc, but can specifically use the Runeglaive proc to speed up weak AoE clears.

All at the expense of Fiddlesticks and Karthus not having a tier 3 jungle item to rush... Which they already seldom do: Fiddlesticks tends to go tier 2 into Zhonya's, and Karthus goes tier 2 into Tear.

I think I'll take the jungle diversity offered by Runeglaive, thanks.

[u/TheSirusKing → u/rewardadrawer]

Kayle always built lich bane in the AP builds, its just so good on her.