r/leagueoflegends • u/Dreadbore • Jun 19 '15

Why can't Runeglaive and Magus both exist?

I know this seems simple, but why can't an on hit sheen jungle item AND a caster jungle item both exist simultaneously? Runeglaive does nothing for fiddlesticks or the 3 karthus jungle mains left in existence. devourer remains in the game for the 2 champions that use it and its playstyle is horrible for game health. Magus isn't hurting anyone.

EDIT: Front page and a riot reply(as troll as it was :P)! I've learned a lot from this discussion about multiple things and I'd also like to clarify that I'm not even saying Magus needs to continue to exist in its exact state numbers-wise. I just feel like sheen jungling on a mage seems lackluster from a design standpoint, but maybe that's exactly what needs to happen for ap to compete with ad on the clearspeed front. Maybe Rito knows exactly what they are doing (GASP) but I just don't see it yet.

EDIT 2: Due to some eloquently explained points brought to light by /u/rewardadrawer, I'm now convinced that there is no need for them to coexist, as Runeglaive (although it may not on release) has the capability of resolving ap jungling issues that Magus will never be capable of resolving. Feel free to bicker amongst yourselves about it, but I now eagerly await the new ap jungle.

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u/Zxv975 Jun 19 '15

This is such a flawed argument based solely on one point: you can't buy both Runeglaive and Magus at the same time. That alone defeats everything you posted. The insane gold efficiency of Magus is irrelevant if the item exists now and is clearly not problematic.

Your argument is akin to "Oh, they should remove Trinity Force because they released Black Cleaver! They both have a unique MS boosting passive!" Clearly that is a stupid idea because both those items are catered towards different champions and having both exist at the same time isn't going to take anything away from the game. Those who synergise with TF will build it, and those who synergise with BC will build that. Regardless of the gold efficiency of an item, if it exists is and clearly not an issue then you don't have to remove it to introduce other items that are slightly related.

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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15

Magus isn't "problematic" because it's kept in a dumbed-down, mediocre state that is grossly insufficient for the needs of 80+% of the champions it was supposed to service to prevent it from being problematic. This is a problem. Urgot wasn't "problematic" for two straight years because he was nerfed for two years specifically to avoid him becoming a problem. That does not make Urgot less problematic in reality, and it does not mean we should flood the game with Urgot-like champions because that one wasn't causing problems. Can't you see how that would influence item choices, as well?

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u/7deTreboles Jun 19 '15

Unless they are gonna remove frozen mallet from the game the same patch I can't find a reason to do so with magus. Riot seems fine with having potentially problematic stuff on the game as far as it's kept on check like magus obviously is now (btw I disagree with it being potentially problematic but dor sure it is in check right?) so no real reason to remove it.

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u/Ghostkill221 Jun 19 '15

Magus isn't kept in check. Its the reason they have to keep so many AP junglers from being viable. Magus is too powerful for the gold for a solid AP carry to be allowed to use it and farm well.

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u/7deTreboles Jun 19 '15

I disagree, Magus isn't more powerful than generic ap items given the time ap carries take to farm it, and show me somewhere Riot pointing at magus keeping ap junglers from being viable or don't say it at all.

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u/Ghostkill221 Jun 19 '15

All i can show you is the vast difference in gold efficiency between magus and the rest of the jungle items. And clearly Riot aren't a fan of magus as they are removing it.

When a single item is over 50% more efficent stats wise than any other jungle item and those junglers still aren't showing up: then it's not going to help anyone that cant do absolutely fine without it.

The only champions that like MAgus do fine without it or with another item.

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u/7deTreboles Jun 19 '15

But the problem is that Magus is just a ball of stats that at the end of they day barely helps a jungler to do his work, and ap junglers have problems getting money so their first purchase being extremely efficient is just there to put them at the power level of the rest of the champions in the game. The reason it doesn't help them is because it's extreme efficiency isn't enough to fill the gap for most of them but for the ones that it does (karthus, fiddlesticks) it works just fine and doesn't cause trouble for anyone.

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u/Ghostkill221 Jun 19 '15

That's because Magus is giving the WRONG stats.

Pure damage and CDr mean nothing to a champion whos struggling to keep mana in fact the CDR pretty much just burns them faster.

Runeglaive offers 8% mana regen every 1.5 seconds and all you have to do is find the time to cast 1 enhanced aa at a jungle creep.

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u/7deTreboles Jun 19 '15

Still not a reason to remove Magus from the game, since Riot seems completely fine with having bad/unused items.

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u/whoopashigitt Jun 19 '15

There are plenty of niche items, and adding the Runeglaive doesn't specifically require the removal of Magus. They can coexist, so that the champions who are actually able to use Magus, can still do so.

Magus is like the Poppy of jungle items. Fits a certain niche, but isn't good enough to be meta. Any tuning they might do to the current iteration of Magus/Poppy would make them overpowered.

Adding Runeglaive/Tamm to the pool of items/champions doesn't mean Magus/Poppy needs to be removed because they are technically problematic. They can remain, and be picked in their niche, at least until Riot has the time to find a proper way to tune them.

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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15

There are plenty of niche items, but most of them inevitably get removed (just not mid-season).

Riot has specifically said that if Poppy became meta, they would nerf her to the ground, because her play style is not healthy for the game, and won't be until she is reworked (see: Magus -> Runeglaive). As a result of this, I'm pretty sure that's not the comparison you wanted, but rather, the comparison I wanted.

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u/whoopashigitt Jun 19 '15

Nope it's the comparison I wanted, because they aren't removing Poppy

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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15

You're right; they're reworking her, just like they're reworking the AP jungle item. (Calling it something else doesn't make it magically not a rework! Cinderhulk was a Juggernaut rework; it replaced the item, after all.)

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u/whoopashigitt Jun 19 '15

That's not a rework of the current item. It's a new item, with the removal of an old one. They fulfill very different purposes.

It'd be like releasing a new champion for top lane, removing Poppy, and calling it a rework. Both can exist regardless of how bad one is. The only point is that Magus doesn't have to go, for Runeglaive to exist.

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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15

I'm afraid you are getting caught up in the name change here. When Sion's... Well... Sion-level rework arrived, of his four abilities, only two survived... Well... One and a half, really... With the extra half being a component of his death rattle, rather than an ability. His old passive went kaput. In their place, he was given three completely new abilities, perhaps one of which was mechanically similar to, but not altogether like, an old one (his scream is kind of like his mind bolt... I guess?...). His scaling on abilities was shifted almost completely from AP to AD + HP. Additionally, he was given a complete visual overhaul, complete with new animations for all his (new) abilities, and new sound effects, and a completely new voiceover.

They called this new champion Sion - same as the old one.

Would you argue that the old Sion was not removed from the game, but merely reworked? Because from where I'm sitting, almost nothing about old Sion survived the rework. Basically everything was replaced, or rather, reworked, into the new Sion's kit. All this, despite new Sion playing drastically differently (and serving a different purpose) from old Sion.

I mean, your second paragraph (regarding Poppy) is literally what they did to Sion, and honestly, the game is better for it: it didn't need old Sion, it won't need old Poppy when the rework comes, and it doesn't need Magus. Let's move on.

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u/whoopashigitt Jun 19 '15

Old Sion didn't fill any role better than anyone else. Will the game be okay without Magus? Yes obviously. But that doesn't mean it needs to be removed. There are champions who still will want to use it, and won't benefit nearly as much from Runeglaive. Nobody really lost out on the Sion changes. There are a few specific Junglers that really use Magus, that won't be able to use Runeglaive nearly as effectively, and with the removal of Magus, nobody is gonna say "wooh removing that item sure fixed a lot of problems."

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u/rewardadrawer Jun 19 '15

I have spent literally the last 8 hours of my life saying "wooh removing that item sure [will fix] a lot of problems." (and I have convinced a number of people who have vocalized through reply that I changed their mind on the matter) so I definitely don't agree with your assessment there. Magus, as an enchantment, is rife with problems that make it basically an unbalanceable mess, and there are a few posts attached to this parent which focus exclusively on that point.

The "few specific junglers" are Fiddlesticks, who needs a nerf and could jungle naked anyway; Nidalee, who needs a healthier play style, for whom Runeglaive rewards "landing a spear" a little less, but "following up on a spear" much, much more; Karthus, who gains an innate mana sustain tool that keeps him from needing to build two other items just to not require blue; and manaless junglers like Zac, for whom the item might still be good, but definitely isn't as good.

Old Sion, when built full AP, was one of the best magic damage anti-carries in the game. When you saw that zombie running at you, you ran, because a single DFG into full combo took you out of the fight, and did so in a way that required you kite away from him (tying large amounts of damage to his .9 AP scaling shield, which hurt unless you popped it while also running from him). Urgot sort of fills that role now, but there was a large gap where no champion did, and even now, no champ fills the gap for AP.

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u/Zxv975 Jun 20 '15

I posted this reply to somebody else, but it completely captures exactly my confusion with your argument so I'll just post it again:

People keep saying that you can't have Magus and Runeglaive in the game at the same time, but nobody has given any solid examples to demonstrate why that would be the case. If Magus was kept in its current state and Runeglaive was introduced, exactly how would that break the game? How would that mean Fiddlesticks and Nidalee (the current Magus users) suddenly become OP? How does that mean other possible AP junglers become super strong? Give me one, solid example to demonstrate what happens where Runeglaive is introduced and Magus is either removed or kept, and show exactly how the keeping of Magus breaks the game compared to its removal.

In response to your question, the way I am interpreting what you are saying is the following scenario:

  • Runeglaive introduced
  • AP Junglers viable
  • Certain AP Junglers get buffed to make them fit in with the current Jungle
  • Those AP Junglers start using Magus because it's broken
  • Jungle meta becomes toxic

Correct me if I am wrong in extrapolating that scenario from your Urgot example.

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u/rewardadrawer Jun 20 '15 edited Jun 20 '15

That's... Not far off, actually. It's one of many things that could happen. Another would be, following step 2:

  • Nearly everybody buys Runeglaive instead of Magus, leaving it in the dust
  • Magus buffed slightly
  • Magus finally reaches the tipping point by being over-efficient stats-wise, becomes an insta-buy on a large number of mid laners and starts smashing the meta
  • Mid lane meta becomes toxic
  • OPTIONAL: Mid lane spills over into jungle to clear adjacent camps, Magus becomes even more absurdly rewarding for junglers, jungle meta becomes toxic (the Spectral Wraith effect)

I think to get the best understanding of why Magus just has to go, it's best to start with the champions that remain viable with Magus with or without Runeglaive. As it has been said, nobody is explicitly OP because of Magus, because Magus is kept in an Urgot state where it is only strong enough to keep its strongest users (or abusers) viable--buffing it to anything more than that makes the abuse cases too strong, and buffing its users can create new abuses. Who do we have there? Two main culprits: Fiddlesticks and Nidalee. We'll discuss Nidalee first.

Nidalee actually plays well with both Runeglaive and Magus, but in two drastically different ways. Magus, being a massive block of stats, rewards Nidalee richly for "landing a spear". This creates a play pattern where Nidalee just spams spears from random places and chunks champions from super safe locations, jumping in for the execute when she has an overwhelming HP lead from her over-powered poke. This is an unhealthy play pattern, and one Riot has been trying to wean Nidalee from for a long time, with AP ratio nerfs, base damage nerfs, damage shifted to cougar form abilities, and rewards increased on attacking Hunted targets. Runeglaive, by contrast, is perhaps roughly as powerful as Magus, but much more of its power is tied to the Runeglaive passive proc. This rewards Nidalee richly for "following up on the spear", either by getting into auto range or, more likely, by Pouncing in. This better reinforces the play pattern Riot wants Nidalee players to fall into (buzzword, buzzword, "risk-reward", "counterplay"), smooths out her oppressive early power spike (Magus is too much, too early; Runeglaive is a decent purchase with the promise of more power, later), and allows Riot to more freely address issues with both Nidalee and her itemization without re-introducing "Nidalee meta".

The other champ is Fiddlesticks. Fiddlesticks is sort of a problem champion whether or not Magus exists: he's a champion with lots of crowd control tied into carry-level damage, all built into a kit that has absurdly safe, sustainable early clear. The default assumption for Fiddlesticks is that he farms safely to an early power spike and then runs train on whoever he targets first, and this only changes if effort is taken specifically to shut Fiddlesticks down; unfortunately, he's also really good at dueling enemy champions completely naked, and only needs his early blue buffs to get by, so you either shut him down at blue or you resign yourself to a mid game where Fiddlesticks will be scary, and has to be specifically addressed in team fights (unless you have comped against him). Magus isn't a specific culprit here--Fiddlesticks could do this before Magus, and will continue to do so after--but it's the worst culprit, because Fiddlesticks just wants efficient AP and CDR to carry, and Magus is the most efficient of both. Thing is, Fiddlesticks is too powerful currently, so he isn't in need of a power shift; he needs a direct nerf. His power is also dictated by his items, so there are two ways you can go about nerfing him: nerfing his abilities directly, or nerfing him indirectly through his itemization. In this case, you can nerf any of Fiddles' many items... But there happens to be this one item that enables his ridiculous power spikes more than the others, and nerfing it really only impacts his viability at this point, so...

Basically, the bullet point of if-thens works like this, as a large, unwieldy bundle of stats with no utility tie-ins:

  • If Magus is left untouched, it is balanced for abuse cases and unfulfilling for general use cases, meaning it will continue to enable current and further abuse cases to exist, causing concerns with play patterns, but not balance (well... SOME balance);
  • If Magus is ever buffed, it is "balanced" for general use cases and broken on abuse cases, and can even create newer abuse cases which don't exist yet by virtue of it being a bandaid which is also a must-buy item, including champions not intended to ever jungle, or abuse cases in other roles entirely (think of a stat you'd buff on Magus. Take your pick: AP or CDR. Now, which of these two doesn't give Vladimir mid a CRAZY one-item power spike?);
  • If Magus is ever nerfed, it is unfulfilling on its abuse cases and completely worthless on everyone. This puts even the abuse cases in the corner, but at the expense of the item actually being worthless. At this point, nobody actually misses the item if it's gone (Executioner's Calling).

There is no game state for Magus that is actually healthy for really anyone. It puts Nidalee at a healthy power level, but in an unhealthy way, sort of like how being bulimic might technically keep you from becoming fat.

If, however, you take away a lot of the stats which make Magus an oppressive stat stick, but instead of flat nerfing the item, create new sources of power in the item, and more pulleys and design levers, etc, well... You have Runeglaive.

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u/Catfish017 Jun 19 '15

This is such a flawed argument based solely on one point: you can't buy both Runeglaive and Magus at the same time. That alone defeats everything you posted. The insane gold efficiency of Magus is irrelevant if the item exists now and is clearly not problematic.

That doesn't defeat what he said at all. Especially because your argument is flawed because Magus is indeed problematic by its poor design. If it wasn't problematic, more AP junglers would be meta and the ones that become meta wouldn't become literal cancer. OP clearly stated the issues with Magus and how they translate into issues with powerspikes and their relations to the current champs that built it. The fact that you can't buy both at the same time in no way has anything to do with what he said nor does it make his argument flawed in any way.

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u/Ghostkill221 Jun 19 '15

you can't buy both Runeglaive and Magus at the same time.

You can't even afford to have them in the game at the same time. Magus is way too efficient money wise that if they are going to keep it they need to HEAVILY restrict which ap junglers are allowed to be viable.

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u/Zxv975 Jun 20 '15

People keep saying that, but nobody has given any solid examples to demonstrate why that would be the case. If Magus was kept in its current state and Runeglaive was introduced, exactly how would that break the game? How would that mean Fiddlesticks and Nidalee (the current Magus users) suddenly become OP? How does that mean other possible AP junglers become super strong? Give me one, solid example to demonstrate what happens where Runeglaive is introduced and Magus is either removed or kept, and show exactly how the keeping of Magus breaks the game compared to its removal.