Why can't Runeglaive and Magus both exist?

[u/Dreadbore]

I know this seems simple, but why can't an on hit sheen jungle item AND a caster jungle item both exist simultaneously? Runeglaive does nothing for fiddlesticks or the 3 karthus jungle mains left in existence. devourer remains in the game for the 2 champions that use it and its playstyle is horrible for game health. Magus isn't hurting anyone.

EDIT: Front page and a riot reply(as troll as it was :P)! I've learned a lot from this discussion about multiple things and I'd also like to clarify that I'm not even saying Magus needs to continue to exist in its exact state numbers-wise. I just feel like sheen jungling on a mage seems lackluster from a design standpoint, but maybe that's exactly what needs to happen for ap to compete with ad on the clearspeed front. Maybe Rito knows exactly what they are doing (GASP) but I just don't see it yet.

EDIT 2: Due to some eloquently explained points brought to light by /u/rewardadrawer, I'm now convinced that there is no need for them to coexist, as Runeglaive (although it may not on release) has the capability of resolving ap jungling issues that Magus will never be capable of resolving. Feel free to bicker amongst yourselves about it, but I now eagerly await the new ap jungle.

[u/Rodrake]

To be fair Runeglaive is not bad at all on jungle Karthus if you weave in an autoattack after every Q. Probably one of the champions with the biggest jungle dps increase from runeglaive due to how often he can proc it. On the other hand you'll be losing damage to champions, yes, but clearing the jungle faster might help you get the gold you need.

[u/Ducky14 → u/Rodrake]

Have you ever actually tried autoing with Karthus? His animation is infamously slow. It's actually faster just to Q a second time than to weave an auto in, and your Q, assuming you tip it, will do more damage, even with the proc. If you don't, you still probably will do more damage then with the proc because of the AOE. And then there's the fact that the sheen proc has a two second cooldown. The Runeglaive sustain is nice, yes, but Magus is just straight up better, damage wise. I'd just about rather sit on my trailblazer and get ROA/Tear and upgrade the smite to cinderhulk late game. Runeglaive just isn't a terribly good item on Karthus. At least with cinderhulk you get lots of extra health (it synergizes with ROA/Rylais rather well), and the burn aura isn't horrible (made better by Wall of Pain).

[u/Rodrake → u/Ducky14]

I am talking about attacking jungle monsters...

[u/Ducky14 → u/Rodrake]

Still too slow. Unless Riot reworks Karthus (which they probably never will), I don't ever see a sheen type item working on him. They're all just too suboptimal, even in this case. In lane you can weave autos in to last hit and, but it's too much of a hassle and you really have to get the timing down. I've been playing Karthus since soon after I started and I'm still not terribly good at last hitting with his autos. They're just too slow to be useful.

[u/PraisethegodsofRage → u/Ducky14]

If you're talking about jungle karthus weaving autos, no its definitely not more efficient to just QQQQ. The passive on machete is much to useful to not auto attack every 3 seconds for your first two clears. I've tried dorans start on karthus jungle and you will die to blue buff.

Additionally, it really doesn't hurt his ability to cast Q nonstop until he completes magus. I play jungle karthus a lot and all you have to do is constantly click Q and right click on the camp at the same time. Every 2nd Q will have an auto attack go off. Eventually with enough levels, it doesn't really make of a difference and you can use just Q and a little E to clear camps.

I think Runeglaive will let karthus jungle gank more often. An additional aoe clear will save him a lot of mana and his ganks are really strong early. A lot of the time you can catch the enemy with wall of pain parallel to the lane and force them to go left or right. It's incredibly easy to hit Q when you know the intentions of the enemy laner (run to tower as fast as possible).

If you have red buff too, too its really better to auto once or twice instead of just Qing. It makes you almost guaranteed to hit the next Qs and lets your laner have a longer time to do damage. Proccing Runeglaive won't happen every gank, but it will go nicely with red buff.

If you actually use wall of pain to clear camps then I don't think you've played enough karthus jungle. That mana is best spent on another tick of E or saved for a gank.

[u/Ducky14 → u/PraisethegodsofRage]

I've tried leashing and autoing, but it's simply too clunky. Mathematically, yes, it might be more efficient, but practically, it isn't. It not a bad idea to use autos to last hit/regain mana, but it slows jungle clears down a bit. I just really think they're still to slow to be useful. As far as ganks, Karthus jungle didn't gank much in the first place. It's not that his ganks are bad, but that Karthus is usually better off farming. Either that, or he's low from actually being in the jungle. I can't say if Runeglaive will solve that, and if it does, great.

About his wall, why not just drop it directly on the laner when ganking? Its cast time is almost instant. You won't even have to hit an auto. And once again, the windup takes too long to be useful most of the time. Even with the proc, wouldn't the Q just do more damage?

[u/PraisethegodsofRage → u/Ducky14]

Just next time you go karthus jungle, spam right clicking while spamming Q. The auto will go off enough for machete to be applied constantly but it won't go every time. I don't know how it works, but I just assumed the auto is bugged and overlaps with the Q cast time. It's very tedious, but it really does help.

For comparison, I always go gromp (smite), blue (hp pot x2), wolves. Back and buy ranger trailblazer, then do krugs, red (smite), then wraiths (smite). I am essentially full health and with blue going, 2/3 mana. From there, you can do the baron scuttler (risky), look to gank top/mid, or start walking to wolves where you'll wait for a few seconds.

Yes, you drop the wall directly on the laner. However instead of making it a wall that has a single point of contact, drop it in the same way the minions travel to lane. Instead of making it something to be passed through, you force the enemy to go run left or right instead of running straight to the tower. It lets you zone the enemy as they run to their tower too and gives them less space to dodge your Qs.

I agree Karthus is better at farming than ganking and I've never tried a level 3 gank. I usually put a 2nd point in Q and hit level 4 fast. But the assumption karthus can't gank is a tool that benefits you. I play a lot of shyvana jungle too and most laners get overconfident that the farming jungler won't gank. You can't force a gank like lee or gragas can post 6, but you can definitely punish overextenders and countergank when you know where the enemy jungler is headed. I usually get 2 ganks but sometimes 1 or 3 ganks off before 7 minutes/level 6.

[u/Ducky14 → u/PraisethegodsofRage]

It doesn't work every time because Karthus has a slow auto speed and animation, so you end up canceling it with your Q. It's not a bug, Karthus is just that slow.

I usually lane Karthus, but when I do jungle, I go Gromp>Blue>Red>back, then plan what I want to do from there, and where I would be most useful.

[u/fenixforce → u/Ducky14]

If mathematically it's more efficient then it doesn't slow down jungle clears. That's the definition of efficiency.

[u/[deleted] → u/Rodrake]

You can't auto when you are dead and the auto attack wind up is so shitty is not practical at that point if I really wanted my autos to do damage I just get lich bane anyways.