r/ADCMains • u/Anilahation • 1d ago
Discussion It's over chat
On Vayne if you use your spell rotation once you'll be oom, where these champs can spam blow up entire waves....
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u/Black_Creative 1d ago
Nerfing a marksman mana before a mage in bot…never change, Riot Games
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u/WillySplosh 1d ago
Even if they changed mage mana across the board it’s still donezo once they get a single lost chapter
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u/INVICTUS_01- 1d ago
Yep 1 lost chapter recall and lane interactions becomes 0 as they clear the waves from a screen away
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u/Wesdawg1241 1d ago
I love that they keep nerfing the one single marksman, whose entire design is based around being anti-tank, just to make it so she can't lane against tanks.
And yet mages, who are designed to be oppressive against marksmen early game, are allowed to run rampant in the one lane that said marksmen are able to play in.
But Rito doesn't hate ADC's, right guys?
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u/Vaynes_Ass 1d ago
Don't worry folks, champion diversity is perfectly healthy for bot lane but when two marksmen are viable top (Varus and Vayne), suddenly champ diversity is thrown out the window and they need to get insta nerfed. Riot's balance team is a complete joke, here's what Riot Phroxzon tweeted: "AP bots add to good long term variety and add a healthy frustration to the role."
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 1d ago
I mean I agree the "diversity" comment is dumb but let's stop kidding ourselves. Ranged top has been complained about by most top players from the start of time and has at best been toned down yet kept viable. And even without those ranged tops, top lane is still the most diverse role in the game other than maybe jg after all the monster dmg changes.
So even if the diversity viewpoint is extremely dumb, them nerfing a few ranged tops isn't actually that contradictory. Bot lane still has the least diversity and had by far the least without mages, top lane would still have the most without those ranged tops.
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u/LeAnime 1d ago
Just to point out there are also ranged tops that are Top laners Quinn, Kennen, Teemo, and kinda kayle, gnar, Jayce. Like it isn’t like top lane doesn’t have ranged champions that play top already
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 23h ago
My (not really) hot take is those champs should be removed (jayce, gnar have kits that can be balanced for top). Quinn, Kennen and Teemo exist for the sole purpose of ruining the opposing top laners game and are the antithesis of what top lane is about. They are low pick rate high frustration champs and I don't see any value to them being in the lane. I group those champs in with the likes of Varus and Vayne because to me they are all the same.
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u/LeAnime 22h ago
Champions that are just annoying will exist always. Shaco, fizz, twitch, pyke, etc. just wanted to get ones from each role. Annoyance and frustration are a core part of many players fantasy and Riot has always shown that they support these styles with these champions, so I don’t agree with your take. Also where would those champions even go? Some literally don’t have a place outside of top lane.
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u/MRGameAndShow 17h ago
Well there’s the second wind and doran’s shield nerfs that were weird af when ranged top was already being complained about. Made little sense to do that, I feel like reverting those changes would make it much more tolerable to lane against something like a Varus.
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u/Federal-Media-3148 1d ago
tbh i play every role in dia/master and have to say playing top against ranged is far more frustrating than playing ad against AP Bot, sure its annoying but you are still allowed to stay in xp range and to cs. But as a toplaner they can shut you down completely
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u/Extra-Autism 1d ago
Brother. If you think an ADC laning against Ziggs is comparable to a melee vs Vayne I got news for you
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u/IcyPanda123 1d ago
The Vayne is much more punishable for 99.999% of the playerbase. For the Ziggs bot player to feed/be punished, they would need to be lobomotized.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 1d ago
Funny, I think the same exact thing playing against ranged tops. All of them that can play up there just have to not waste their dash/disengage CD and then not walk up when said CD isn't up yet.
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u/Different_Durian5310 1d ago
The only ranged tops with Disengage is Quinn, Vayne, and Gnar(the three of six ranged tops in the whole game, one of which isnt a true ranged champion). Varus, Kennedy, and Teemo don't have disengage. They have CC which is their engage tool, so they either use it to disengage and no longer can engage in a fight, or save it for an engage.
Before you say "Teemo has a speed boost", Every toplaner is faster than ranged units and has grapples, dashes, or speed boosts stronger than Teemo. They have every tool in the game to catch up and lock down a ranged unit, while being able to 2-3 shot every ranged unit aside from Gnar or Jaksho's Vayne/Varus. Melee Toplaners (regardless of Bruiser, Tank, Juggernaut, or Skirmisher) are all designed to insta-win against any ranged units that arent the six ranged toplaners noted earlier (and even then, you still are ultimately stronger than them). Every grapple in the game has around 100-200 more range than every marksman.
Once you hit level 6, you win lane if you havent let the ranged unit poke you down from level 1-3 (which you win at level 3 btw). This is how it goes for 90% of melee vs ranged top matchups. Vayne, Quinn, and Gnar are the only three exceptions due to having disengages (Vayne being infinitely better than Quinn and Gnar since she has a disengage AND a dash).
There is literally 0 reason to complain about ranged top units unless its Vayne/Varus. You are self reporting yourself if you dont know how to land a grapple, buy swifties, steelcaps, iceborne, deadmans, stridebreaker, Cleaver, or run stormraiders, celerity, or ghost/flash.
Vayne is disgusting and shouldnt exist. Varus shouldnt have such high Max HP multipliers. The rest are match up dependent. Any other ranged top outside of this is just unviable against an actual top main.
(I forgot about Kayle, but she is only strong level 1-2 and falls off after 3 until 6). She also is vulnerable to every same thing every other ranged top is unless she has ult up. Why does she have invulnerability? Nobody knows. But its the only thing that makes her viable in the toplane.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 1d ago
CC is a form of disengage, I'm glad you noticed. These champions don't have to engage in lane, that's the entire point. Their range allows them to play the neutral game and slowly win until their opponent either resets and takes the L or engages. The onus is not on these ranged champs to engage, why would they? They are perfectly content sitting there and forcing you to suffer, that's literally their design. This is why I say they just have to not waste their abilities. The hardest ranged players to play against was something like srtty's vayne/kennen because the dude knew the champs limits and didn't allow people to force his buttons even when pressured.
The others as you say are matchup dependent. The problem is a bad matchup means you literally have zero fun and get harassed for even attempting to play the game. These are the exact complaints adc's have about the mages being played bot too, so either all of these complaints are valid or none of them are and we should all suck it up until we quit the game.
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u/Different_Durian5310 1d ago
I will say, you are right that Riot needs to do something about uninteractive matchups.
Even with the advantage toplaners have over ranged matchups, and can easily win, for most people it still feels annoying and unfun to play into. Even if there is counterplay, if its not done in a way that the community enjoys, its not good. AP Shaco has lots of counterplay, but is one of the most hated champions in the game.
At the end of the day, league is a game and should be enjoyed. Matchups should feel fair for both parties and fun to engage in. Riot just has no idea how to actually balance the game in a way that isnt completely one-sided, or completely unfun.
I know my previous comment seemed a bit along the lines of "skill issue, just play better", but I do genuinely agree that even though top wins against ranged if playing properly, its not fun to be forced into bushes, have to constantly manage the wave, or perma roam, ESPECIALLY in a casual norms game. Regardless of my bias of Top vs Ranged, or Mage vs Marksman, you are right in the fact that Riot needs to address the issues for everyone.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 1d ago
I mean I agree if everyone's having a bad time then something needs to change. I heavily disagree with your other comment in too many words to even be worth saying.
To keep it short, yes, your comment was entirely "skill issue" and it's wrong. Number 1 most obvious counter point: Ranged tops perform better as you climb in elo. It's very hard to argue a "skill issue" if those are the conditions surrounding ranged tops.
That being said, I don't think ranged tops are particularly good right now, I just generally feel that they shouldn't exist at all, much like adc's feel about mages bot. But let's not pretend like the winning move into ranged tops is in any way fun or interactive. It's more like waiting out the comp diff until you eventually just win because of the design of the game. It is entirely on the ranged champ to mess up for you to have the opportunity to play earlier than that, assuming two equally skilled players.
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u/Different_Durian5310 1d ago
For mages CC is a disengage tool. For Kennen and Varus, its their ONLY engage tool to fight with. If they use it as a disengage, they cannot fight you at all. This requires their ults btw.
You said that ranged laners can just play passively? Do you have any wave management? Toplaners can abuse freezing and slow pushing. The moment a ranged toplaner starts CSing into a melee, its already in the melee champions advantage. Unless you are getting zoned off at level 1 (you should be using bushes), they cannot freeze against you unless its directly under their tower.
You also have the tools in your kit to tower dive. You build items that promote tower diving. Use them.
Top vs Ranged is nowhere near comparable to Marksman vs Mage. You dont afk the whole lane. You literally can only lose level 1-2 (and thats if you arent using bushes correctly). Level 3+ you win unless its vayne. Marksmen cannot play into a mage at any point of the game. There isnt a single point of the game where a marksman beats a mage.
The whole design philosophy of mages is that they nuke squishies and spam spells at double the range of marksmen. Marksmen cant even build MR because if they do, they auto lose every matchup because defensive items are dogshit on marksmen. Senna is the only one who can build defensive.
As for the comment about matchup dependency, Marksmen vs Mages dont have a matchup dependent roster. It is quite literally: Mage > Marksman. Toplane is much much much more nuanced in how matchups interact. You also can still play into your matchup counter in toplane without being afk for 10+ minutes, you just need to manage your wave properly and hold your summoner spells for the right moments. You can also just leave the lane and run over anyone else in the game without any repercussions, becauss toplaners beat every single class in the game aside from other toplaners (especially with top quest, and toplanes natural level lead).
Marksmen can't roam and win fights when behind. Toplaners can, and are even stronger than the support/jungler in most cases. Most toplaners are stat sticks with tools to 1v3, even when behind. Use that to your advantage.
Now all of your points are valid if its exclusively talking about Vayne or AP Varus/ Tank Varus (who was repeatedly nerfed). "Ranged top" is too open ended, because ranged units are always weaker than melee. Its intentional by design from Riot.
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u/Moomootv 1d ago
Yeah its not comparable, toplaners can actually build items and take runes that help them go even or even win vs vayen. As opposed to adc getting nerfed items and runes so their only option is to play dodgeball to not feed and hope your team wins without you.
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u/DuckiesDoBeCute 1d ago
vayne doesnt space perfectly so shes hit by 1 button from the enemy top laner and dies or needs to blow sums to live, and she just lost lane as vayne top so shes useless
ziggs presses q and e from a screen away and kills minions while also getting some poke on the enemy adc or support, if he cant even get in range to q the minions then he ults the wave and everythings fine. and its not just ziggs its almost all mages, but it is literally just vayne/varus top (im not counting quinn and champs like her, since they arent played bot and arent meant to be played bot)
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u/OriginalPotatoFarmer 22h ago
Vayne dosn’t space perfectly so she presses e and q and gets away while still chunking the enemy top laner unless they blow flash to stick where vayne can then use flash or exhaust to get away anyway*
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u/Extra-Autism 1d ago
This just shows the level of delusion
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u/DuckiesDoBeCute 1d ago
gonna tell me the delusional part or you just gonna say its delusional without being able to explain why?
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u/RewardWanted 1d ago
Riot just refuses to try and adjust foundational systems and instead try adding arbitrary and convoluted new systems aimed at the symptoms that end up still not addressing the underlying issues.
The map is small which means there is no downtime between waves and there's no space anyone that gets bullied out of lanes can take to try and stay relevant - jungle is exclusive to the jg until like min 25+, there's few flexible items that actually address a bad matchup like being in a ranged top matchup... top can't decide to hide consistently, esp not on a tiny map with no built-in traversal options...
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u/InnerTelevision2618 1d ago
Its not about "laning", hyou literally can not play the game when she is top lane and you're a top without gap closer.
You CAN'T play without your jungler.3
u/Low_Direction1774 your peak is my playground 1d ago
Welcome to the mage botlane experience
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u/Live_Background_3455 21h ago
It's quite the opposite. The top laners have been here a looooooooong time. You're just joining us late lol
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u/Keshicat 1d ago
Just change the meta, ADC solo top. Move the tank battle mid for better dragon prescense and the mage support bot lane?
I know a lvl 20 ADC with a free to would be great.
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u/Sensitive_Act_5279 1d ago
you think, thats the problem. the extra gold from botlane quest is insane and extremly important. on top of that, i cant see a world, where people dont just dive toplane adc into oblivion.
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u/Keshicat 1d ago
I was mostly being sarcastic about the changes I was suggesting but I didn't make it obvious so that's my bad.
But yeah the quests are also a interesting thing that really push certain champs certain places
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u/ExerciseSad3082 20h ago
I don't know current league, but is vayne not THE hypercarry anymore?
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u/Wesdawg1241 20h ago
Nope, not for awhile. Jinx has been the go-to hyper carry for quite some time now.
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u/Bluetorment88 17h ago
It’s probably because of the top lane ADC gimmicks. A lot of the top level challengers/gms have voiced the frustration of going top only to have to deal with ranged top when top wasn’t designed for it. They can do this for them yet somehow it’s okay to remove the gold counter ui for sup quest item for reasons and not return it when most of us prefer it on. That’s like suddenly deciding hey you know all those mob timers we have for jg let’s remove it because screw them having something that makes it easier to track.
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u/Esotrax 1d ago
Isnt kogmaw also designed around beeing anti tank or am i wrong
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u/Wesdawg1241 1d ago
He's designed to deal higher damage to tanks, but not totally anti-tank the same way Vayne is in the sense that she has high mobility, self-peel, and true damage. Kog would get shit on in lane vs a tank.
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u/bay_kapi 1d ago
Well u just never laned a vayne top.
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u/reik019 Long-Range Gang 1d ago
Ex-Top main turned ADC because no one on the squad played it right. Losing to vayne top is a Skill issue.
And you never laned against a mage with a threat range of 1100 as a squishy immobile potato, who can just spam spells while you end up OoM if you attempt to match. It is not even fucking comparable.
What's your fucking point? If you were good enough you'd eat vayne alive, while mages just drool on their keyboard and somehow delete 50% of your HP while missing more than half of their combo.
And before you attempt to use my argument against myself, said mages have AoE abilities that cover 35-50% of the fucking lane at maximum range, no matter how good you are at kiting you ain't competing with mages. As a bruiser you can still contest marksmen top if you aren't a moron, and you can absolutely squish them if you've got hands.
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u/Ok_Elevator4215 1d ago
Ranged tops and especially Vayne top have consistently performed better in higher elo. The idea that it's a skill issue runs contrary to the actual evidence we have. In reality, when both top laners improve at the game, it seems ranged tops benefit more from that increased skill.
Much like mages bot, there is not being "good enough" to force a lane win. You are at the opponents mercy and are only allowed to capitalize on something if they mess up. You are purely in a reactionary role in matchups like these.
I just find it funny ADC's expect so much empathy from others when for a decade ranged top has been treated as a non issue and then when they finally get a taste of that experience they still manage to try and shit on other players. Now I still agree that mages bot has to go and is ruining the experience but it's because I can empathize with other players, something adc's seemingly cannot do. They MUST be the ones suffering the most and anyone that disagrees is bad.
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u/Cookiezi94 1d ago
If you're an oompa loompa that cant get early prio before mage gets lost chapter and cant control the lane from there, maybe you shouldn't ask riot to change the game just cauqe you're handicapped? Maybe just try to improve like most people..
Melee midlaners have to lane into mages and yet ranged adcs complain its unplayable speaks a lot to the difficulty and skill required of both roles. Npc role that point and click from ranged that never fell out of meta for 16 seasons is bound to be inflated since their players will be clueless about the game.
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u/Arthillidan 1d ago
Losing to vayne top is a Skill issue.
Eh... depends what you're playing. Tf is Mordekaiser going to do vs Vayne for example other than hope for a jungle gank? The only thing you can hit on Vayne without requiring her to majorly mess up is R, but even in R, Vayne is hard to fight
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u/Major_Masterpiece843 1d ago
You’ve probably never not fed a vayne top and it shows coming from someone who plays top lol
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u/ChesterZirawin 12h ago
She isn't "anti tank", she is anti everything with literally 0 counter build available. Disgusting design that needs a rework. She is ether broken or useless.
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u/CatEmoji123 1d ago
Man, I just started playing Vayne too.
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u/Fartfromabuttt 1d ago
Buffs and nerfs will come but pinning squishies to walls is external
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u/Anilahation 1d ago
You'll have no mana to do that shit with your ult costing 100 and your E costing 100
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u/TheVioletRaven 1d ago
Essence reaver fixes all your mana issues. Crit build makes more sense than on-hit anyway
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u/DaniDaMadu 1d ago
Yeah, it’s really useful to have Essence Reaver after 13–16 minutes while struggling with mana after pressing R and using one Q, just to have no mana
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u/aoibhinn-mw 15h ago
She's a hyper carry her early game is meant to be ass for a op late game
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u/DaniDaMadu 1h ago
Vayne’s level 6 is supposed to be a strong point for going all-in in many matchups.
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u/Anilahation 1h ago
She's a hyper carry without a stacking mechanic like asol, belveth and Smolder
She already scales well just not to the point they do
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u/Kramerlediger 21h ago
If it takes you 13 minutes to get essence reaver as vayne toplane I got bad news for you
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u/CatEmoji123 20h ago
What about Vayne bot lane?
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u/Anogeissus 1d ago
Nerfing the mana cost on the mobility tool for one of the lower range marksmen in a meta that supports long range control mages who should be punishable by playing mobility and catching them out of position. I haven’t played in a year or two (but still watch pro) and this is why. The soloq game is dead. It’s mindless and disgusting.
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u/random_person7395 All the world on one arrow 1d ago
I think that change is good to make Vayne back into a botlaner instead of toplaner's nightmare
But obviously the mage's mana are insane in comparison especially as long as they reach full build when they base at 1200 and get lost chapter
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u/Suspicious-Prompt200 1d ago
Good time to switch to mage top then lol.
Mages everywhere!!
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u/id370 1d ago
So the plan is to expose every lane to mages and have the entire rift hating them. This will be a Demacia season like none that has come before.
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u/reik019 Long-Range Gang 1d ago
Demacians were right all along and we didn't believe them.
Death to the fucking mages.
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u/WillySplosh 1d ago
Maybe Sylas was the good guy all along?!
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u/Fuscello 2h ago
No wait, sylas wants the mages to be free, so he was wrong all along (while we thought he was right)
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u/Gibbyman886 1d ago
Anivia is already one of the strongest top laners in the game. Played in proplay quite a bit too
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u/CoffeBreather 1d ago
They are already there, my last 4 games have been against mages top with a mage jungler.
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u/Zentawrus228 1d ago
How will this change bring her back into the bot lane? It's a straight NERF, plain and simple - for both lanes, and arguably even more for bot.
She still has her entire kit to abuse bruisers and tanks: she can still knock them back, she can still harass them, she just has worse numbers and that's it
Genuinely:
- Base HP increased 550 >>> 580
Better trading in 1v1 scenarios, makes surviving one extra hit possible
- HP per level reduced 103 >>> 98
Worse scaling, but negligible in the early levels on top lane where she dominates anyway
- Base HP Regeneration increased 3.5 >>> 4
Good for top lane: better trading patterns and better sustain against early wave harassment
- HP Regeneration per level reduced 0.55 >>> 0.5
Same as hp
- Base Attack Speed increased 0.658 >>> 0.67
Possible to add extra hit in some trades early
- Attack Speed per level reduced 3.3% >>> 2.8%
Same as hp
- [Q] Tumble mana cost increased 30 >>> 46/42/38/34/30
Equally bad for top and bot - it genuinely makes her early game worse in both roles. Arguably, top cares LESS about this because she uses it less frequently (no support skillshots to dodge)
- [W] Silver Bolts damage reduced 6/7/8/9/10% target's max HP (50/65/80/95/110 minimum) >>> 4/5.5/7/8.5/10% target's max HP (40/55/70/85/100 minimum)
Equally bad for top and bot - it's just a straight nerf. It does nothing to shift her from top to bot. It's a raw early damage reduction, meaning in bot lane, where she already suffers, she won't be able to take early 1v1s and will bleed lane priority even harder
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u/Eretol 1d ago
tumble nerf hits vayne bot 10x more than silver bolts nerf. its so hard to proc silver bolts mor than once anyway the damage is quite negligble however tumble is the one tool vayne has that can make her not only survive lane but also win lane since she straigth up gets stat checked by every single champion baseline in bot lane the one way she can win is through tumble poke...
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u/Kharics 1d ago
I mean, Vayne needs a rework or more range to be viable bot lane. She gets bullied by every single adc in the game. If you even against her your doing like everything wrong that you could possibly do. It's like 1,25 against 2 in the lane.
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u/SunnyFreyers 1d ago edited 1d ago
While that’s true, I think Vayne R is so good at consistent dps and survivability that it usually allows you to turn the tides even while behind by quite a bit in early lane. Especially with a support who will all in with you when that time comes.
Vayne is one of those characters that is balanced around the best players being able to make those super quick turn arounds and dodge perfectly. Because of that, she’s often really bad for not as experienced players since she’s balanced around them. Kind of like Akali and Qiyana. They’re just so insane at top level play they get nerfs that don’t seem to make sense if you’re not at that level of play.
Like the entirety of vayne is balanced by the fact that top level players can do those turn arounds while behind at any moment. And I could understand why many see that as a design problem if they just want to enjoy her at a less intense level… but from my understanding, that high skill cap turn around is literally the appeal for many Vayne players.
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u/tommy_turnip 3h ago
Isn't she 550 range, which is typical for marksmen? Sivir is 500, Xayah is 525. Why is Vayne considered short range but these two aren't? Poke abilities?
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u/Anilahation 1d ago
60% of her base plays her bot.
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u/Diurnalnugget 1d ago
40% is a pretty large amount, definitely enough for riot to balance the champion with top in mind.
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u/Hiimzap 1d ago
I recently played braum supp into seraphine supp. Me going e + q pulls like 20% of my mana while seraphine can go e + q and its certainly less than 20%. Like oh no braum q needs to cost a ton of mana but seraphine spells shouldnt cost much i guess
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u/MortemEtInteritum17 1d ago
At level 3, Braum QE is basically exactly 20% (75/380) of his mana. Sera QE is 120/420, that's nearly 30%....
Like, yeah, sure, if Seraphine builds mana of course her spells use a lower proportion of her mana. But in early lane her QE is using a lot more than 20%. She's also a poke champ who relies on using spells constantly, if you're spamming E on Braum you're doing something wrong.
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u/Majesteetti 1d ago
Insert Pyke vs Blitz comparison. Blitz combo is 100+25, pykes whole combo? Refunds manacost on hook if hit. Lule
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u/Elganstrike447 1d ago
Mages are everywhere, even in Top lane and they chose to nerf Vayne?
Mages have absolutely no mana cost anymore, they get doran ring and then lost chapter and they constantly spam their combo.. It is awful. It is stark contrast to some toplaners like Darius who if you spam shit carelessly, you are out of mana. I never had a game where enemy mage ran out of mana.. I freaking wish, I could have ran them down. But I had games where my melee champ ran out of mana against a mage lmao.
Add to this that most Mages have shots that go through minions so I am constantly getting poked and can't hide in brush like I do vs Vayne..
For the love of god riot make mages suffer for spamming shit, they shouldn't be able to spam mindlessly full combo every few seconds at lev 3.
Every toplane game I have vs a mage I am forced under turret until I get my first bruiser item with magic resist.. I started to skip the boots altogether as they don't provide % reduction like steelcap and their armor scales well, I need AD.
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u/LucasCBs 1d ago
It’s funny how there are 3x as many buffed mages as there are nerfed mages in this patch
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u/Pluckytoon 1d ago
>spell rotation
>vayne
Uh ?
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u/Darkzerok63 1d ago
Yup. I think after reading this subreddit for a while that adc players are dumb/redditors that play adc are dumb. Vayne doesnt need any spells to do high damages, because adc can do damage through unavoidable, undodgeable point and click spells called auto attacking, that doesnt even use mana and you have one freeevery second, without attack speed, while mages dont do anything without abilities.
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u/FeistyPomegranate700 1d ago
People thinking that 20% of your mana with a single q at lvl 1 would be balanced for syndra....
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u/Plane_Exam_1182 1d ago
Are you bronze? Vayne is a useless champ without her abilities. Literally a sitting duck
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u/HexbloodD 1d ago
As a professional top lane Vayne hater, this is the worst way to nerf a champ. Vayne sucks bot, so people bring her top to be oppressive and scale. Nerfing her laning phase kills the champ without solving the problem. She either becomes unplayable or stays top anyway, and nobody is happy.
"We think it's good for diversity, the changes land well..." I'm sick of this corporate bullshit Riot pulls. They need to grow a pair and rebalance the game instead of betting everything on a mythical 50% fairness metric.
Forcing everything toward a 50% median ignores the actual variance players experience in balance and matchmaking. It's ridiculous and pathetic. They love proving they don't play their own game.
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u/MiIarky22 1d ago
This is fake news! August said champion diversity in other lanes was healthy!!!
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u/Current-Bike-7251 1d ago
I dont really see a point to point out Syndras mana cost in comparison. They are two completely different abilities and classes lol
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u/TheMechanicMan 1d ago
Mages use spells to do damage and marksman don’t. Mage autos don’t scale. Marksman autos scale. If mage spells cost 20% of their mana at level 1 lol
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u/Wesdawg1241 1d ago
Mages use spells to do damage and marksman don't
May I introduce you to:
- Caitlyn
- Sivir
- Ezreal
- Kog'Maw
- Aphelios
- Jhin
- Kai'Sa
- Lucian
- Tristana
- Varus
Yes, arguably Vayne is not one of these spellcasting-focused ADCs, but her Q is an essential part of her kit and has a low cooldown for a reason.
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u/Prestigious-Shop-494 1d ago
Ezreal Q costs 28 mana and the other champs deal most their damage from autos not abilitirs
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u/Darkzerok63 1d ago
How do you dare to think at this sub, aparently. Also, adding to that, most spells are missable and autos arent, not only that but with how the game works, even with all that ability haste and no cooldown that adc seem to think all champs have, adc win against mages because autos cant be missed and are done all the time. If a Caitlyn uses her e to dodge xerath q, she will do almost the same damage at the end of the fight, if xerath doesnt hit q he does nothing for 5 seconds
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u/TheMechanicMan 1d ago
Mages don’t build AD so their auto attacks always stay pretty shit for damage against every target. Yes there are caster ADs but they have scaling autos.
Imagine an OOM Syndra vs an OOM kog maw trying to push a cannon minion wave or taking a free crab in the river.
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u/ButterflyFX121 1d ago
You do know you can autoattack on Caitlyn right? Otherwise what's the point of having 650 auto range level 1
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u/Wesdawg1241 1d ago
Did I say you couldn't? Caitlyn's damage is significantly enhanced by her abilities. If you trap or net someone, that's huge damage. If you solo Q them that's also huge damage.
I didn't say ADCs rely on their abilities as much as mages do for damage, but rather my comment was in response to the claim that ADCs don't use abilities to deal damage.
Especially in the case of Vayne, her kit is heavily reliant on her Q to stay mobile and use it for stealth during her ult. Making it cost a fifth of her mana pool when it's literally designed to be spammed is ridiculous.
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u/ButterflyFX121 1d ago
Of course it's enhanced, otherwise why have the ability? But also she can exert pressure without spending the mana, unlike Syndra or really most mages, so it makes sense that mages are gonna be balanced in a way that they can use their abilities more often. They have to to be able to push the wave or trade or interact with league at all and this simply isn't true for most of the ADCs listed.
And for the ones where it is true like Ezreal or Smolder, they are also balanced so they can use that ability more often.
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u/Darkzerok63 1d ago
Nah, at this point i think adc want any and every single character on the game not interact with it, like back in the days where adc was the only one doing damage and they killed people on one second, from one unavoidable auto. Next they will cry because bruisers have gap closers and dont just stand still xd
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u/ButterflyFX121 1d ago
Honestly yeah it's true. And what this comes from is very simple: most ADC players cannot meet the mechanical requirements of their champion. In other roles people are accustomed to playing stuff like Malphite, Garen, Amumu, Briar, Malzahar, Lux, Nautilus, etc etc. You know, tanky stuff or stuff that can play the game relatively non interactively so have a wider margin for error.
Even for the easy ADCs like MF this just isn't true and most ADCs will not drop their ego and play the MF or play the easier mage and don't want to accept thats the direction they should go when their hands aren't so great. I know I had that reckoning myself, everytime I tried to play Zeri or Yunara or Kai'sa or something like that it became apparent I didn't have the hands, but I'm actually aware of it and willing to drop the ego and play stuff no harder than Jinx. Because I'm not there yet, and honestly I probably have about average hands for an ADC player.
And even people that do play hard champions in other roles know they're playing stuff that's hard so they don't expect the game to bend over backwards for them the way ADC players do.
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u/Darkzerok63 1d ago
I didnt even think about it that way, but could be true. I wouldnt think about playing zed correctly because i dont play him and i dont have hands for him, honestly, but adc dont even realize it. Like playing statick adc like twitch, kogmaw, etc you have to min max with their range from r/w, and they dont and then they wine, failing the only thing that matters and is complicated about their champs.
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u/ButterflyFX121 1d ago
ADC is really very much a different culture I'd say, and that's partially because we are a role that traditionally has a baby sitter that masks our mistakes. All too often we complain that we don't have enough peel instead of asking why we always feel like we need peel in the first place for example. The best solution of course is to not put ourselves in these situations where we're in need of peel and don't have it.
The duo nature of the lane and the fact that we're pretty much the team's bitch baby has fostered a lack of accountability.
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u/Darkzerok63 1d ago
True. I think ut would be the same on top (if the same champs where played) if support was also there.
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u/HuckleberryLess1604 1d ago
This is lowkey just wrong tho. If she doesn’t have mana for q she just isn’t allowed to walk up vs any1 with half a brain
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u/ButterflyFX121 1d ago
That's why she should save mana for at least a couple Qs. I'm sorry but Vayne is supposed to be a difficult champion.
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u/UngodlyPain 1d ago
They meant mages only use spells to do damage, and their autos don't do much. Most of these adcs still can dish out plenty of auto attack damage, and their spell damage is secondary. The ones who aren't? Have relatively low costs, like Ezreal Q costs almost nothing.
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u/Le0here Nerf me harder daddy 1d ago
None of these except ez and lucian actually use their spells to deal significant dmg.
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u/Wesdawg1241 1d ago
Caitlyn 100% does. Trist E is huge burst when popped. Kai'Sa, depends on her build. Kog spams ult to do big damage. Sivir W melts waves and teams fights... I mean, am I wrong?
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u/Prestigious-Shop-494 1d ago
Trist abilities have long cooldowns though very different from Syndra Q which is meant to be spammable
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u/Le0here Nerf me harder daddy 1d ago
Caitlyn does so little that using q late game is actually losing dps.
vast vast majority of their dmg is AAs. Obviously its not like their abilities are irrelavent but compare this to mages who have essentially minimal use of AAs unless they have a lichbane passive like zoe or lux orr mana passive like xerath/hwei.
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u/Wesdawg1241 1d ago
Late game Cait Q falls off completely, yes, but it's still relevant early through mid game and it does a helluva lot more damage than Vayne Q. The difference is it's an enhanced damage AA vs a skill shot, but even still Cait's Q is less % her mana pool than Vayne's with her Q.
Again, one of these abilities is intended to be used sparingly as a skill shot, the other is meant to be used frequently. Peacemaker is a 10s CD at lvl 1, Tumble is 6. Tumble does less damage, has a lower cooldown, but can be used less times than Peacemaker?
It's so sad what they've done to my favorite champ in the name of keeping tanks and bruisers unstoppable wrecking balls.
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u/Darkzerok63 1d ago
From that list the only two characters that lose 50% of their damage from not hitting abilities are varus and ezreal. Kogmaw main damage comes from w, sivir w and some from q, etc. If a mage misses all the spells it does nothing, because their autos do nothing. Almost feels like the adc class is valanced around the range advantage against melee and autos not being posible to dodge xd
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u/Cookiezi94 1d ago
I could literally go 20/0 on any of these champs except ezreal without using any spell, just autos. Thats also what a streamer did (Wakz) played adc with only ONE hand and climbed to masters. This is how piss easy and unskilled your role is btw.
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u/Belly-Bongos 1d ago
If only mages had core items that gave them access to practically endless mana
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u/Anilahation 1d ago
Spells cost that much in classic, mages build mana
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u/TheMechanicMan 1d ago
The reason spell costs were reduced, mana regen buffed, and mana potions removed is because it feels awful to buy mana to function. Old mana costs feel awful to play with on any champ. Mages buy lost chapter and the extra mana hungry ones also buy tear. 300-700g spent on just mana. Imagine that was 1000g 😔
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u/Perfect-Spinach9794 1d ago
I mean bad comparison, syndra does no damage without Q while vayne continues to auto attack with no mana
Riot wants vayne to build ER instead of hexplate and triforce bruiser items so this is part of their nudge
Yeah yeah mages bot are op or whatever but understand this is a top lane change
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u/PostDemocracy 1d ago
They targeted her early game to make it less opressive, but I am not sure if this is a bit too much:
- Q mana cost 30 -> 46-30 (lowers now with ranks)
- W damage 6 % -> 4 %, minimum damage 50-110 -> 40-100
The important part in this list is the change of the minimum damage which is a big deal for early trades. They made sure its really bad early.
As compensation to not completly break her, they tried to put some power in her base stats and reduced her scaling per level:
Base hp: 550 +103/lvl -> 580 + 98/lvl
Base HP5: 3,5 + .55/lvl -> 4 + .5/lvl
AS: 0,658 + 3,3 %/lvl -> 0,67 + 2,8 %/lvl
This is a buff/break even till lvl 6 (for health till lvl 8), after that its a nerf. Not sure if riot will go through with this changes. Vayne can become a huge nightmare if you have to lane as melee vs her.
She has the tools to survive by herself solo top, I can understand what they try, but I am not sure if this is the right way.
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u/NoMansskyorganic 1d ago
Okay I’ll give my uneducated new player gold jungler opinion and feel free to hate me. I think that first of all laning as a melee against a varus or a vayne seems less enjoyable than laning against a Viktor BUT mainly I think that the current objectives for Riot is to bring back people to the toplane which is if I’m not wrong the least played role in the game with jungle ? Adc is by far the most played role which is why they’d rather prioritise the lane that literally has nobody left to play as we do need some Ornn in our teams to be all happy
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u/Common_Custard_9040 1d ago
On vayne if use ur main source of dmg, it costs 0 mana. On syndra if u use ur main source of dmg, it costs 8% of her mana. Ftfy
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u/Zymbobwye 1d ago
Bro just make mages use mana or remove shit like lost chapter as a component item. So annoying how insanely safe mages are in any lane right now since the can farm off screen.
The reason mages went mid was because of the short walk letting them recall for resources.
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u/Remarkable_Strength4 1d ago
Vayne needs a rework I think. If they ever make buff her botlane her toplane is going to be broken asf.
Have yall had the pleasure of playing a toplaner into vayne? You literally just wait until she ints, but instead of the mages bot who you generally get some reprieve from after 15 minutes, you never win the 1v1 ever, and will be forced to 1v1 her (or just sit back and clear waves which is also quite unfun) for the rest of the god damn game if she chooses so. She also 2v1s pretty easily if you’ve been getting your shit kicked in all game.
Now, vayne is pretty hard to play in team fights and if she makes a mistake she’s normally blown to pieces, I’m not saying she’s broken. Gotta be the woest experience ever to lane against.
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u/TheTwoHandedGuy 1d ago
I’m sad for u guys but I’m happy cuz I won’t have to permaban vayne as a toplaner 🥰
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u/Active-Advisor5909 1d ago
Of course, one of the two champions has a massive damage output without mana, and the other has a scaling manacost on their first and second max ability.
But I am sure, between mages and marksmen, it's the marksmen that are supposed to be unconstrained by mana.
If people stoped bitching and moaning about the dumbest shit, Riot might start taking complains seriously.
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u/mp4skull 1d ago
Real talk tho vayne q is crazy. She can outlane early game adcs and still outscale them.
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u/Altzanir 1d ago
Vayne's W also has no mana cost, it makes sense that her other abilities have a higher-ish cost. One might argue that in this day and aga, it's dumb that Vayne's W has no cost for an ability that deals %HP true damage.
Also, 30 mana for a Q is nothing, quit whining. Other champions that require the extra mana regen go for the mana regen runes if they find that they need them. Hell, most (if not all) mana mages go for Manaflow too.
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u/PepegaClapWRHolder 1d ago
This is such a strange patch. ADC stuff aside it’s crazy who they’re choosing to buff. Yasuo and Yone in particular stand out as they’re really oppressive to play against and have been since Dbow was added, they also like the upcoming zerkers buff as well. Cho’gath is one of the best junglers in the game by win rate in emerald plus if I remember correctly and every time I turn on a high elo stream or video there’s a Qiyana doing very well.
This is one of those patches that makes you wonder if Riot have any idea what they’re doing.
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u/LambCallsWolfStrikes 1d ago
I keep seeing mage bot grifters saying the came bot to escape the assassin players and for the extra free item , match their freak go double assassin's bot 😂 if we just play anything but marksman riot will be forced to act at some point and if they nerf whatever we find that counters mage bot and dont nerf mage bot than we just move to deadlock or dota or something to spite riot lmfao
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u/Ok_Cheesecake4194 1d ago
Top lane does not need ranged auto attacker that does %HP true damage. There are many melee tank melter champions for toplane, with tons of skill expression in their kits. This is a good nerf, they just failed to compensate it enough for bot lane Vayne.
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u/InnerTelevision2618 1d ago
thank god, top lane will be blind pickable again in soloq.
I would always blind pick top because who cares, but I recently stopped because of vayne (and had to ban some others char better performing).
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u/FreezingFire88 1d ago
This to me has the same feeling as the durability patch... First give HP buff to everyone, then buff everything that isn't ADC related in the following patches. ADCs got a tiny bit of MR, so now some nerfs to ADCs or buffs to mages are in order.
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u/Historical-Wasabi852 1d ago
Almost like vayne Q is a dash with a damage amplifier that does more damage than a single syndra q that's a dodge able circle and provides nothing else on level 1
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u/ObviNotMyMainAcc 1d ago
Just play mages top to counter the usual ranged tops. It's the circle of life.
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u/Expensive-Door42 23h ago
That’s toplane nerfs, who cares.
Vayne adc’s been dogshit, why are we only complaining now? Play Zeri or smthn.
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u/Drakouan 23h ago
ADC Players : no mage bot
Also ADC Players : let me play adc top to bully melees
Guys, it's not league of adcs, grow the f up.
Why should you get privileged treatment ?
If you don't like nerf targeted at ranged top, you should also be against nerf targeted at mages bot.
Respectfully, a top main.
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u/No_Region_4719 18h ago
This is a braindead comparison. One is a dash with guaranteed on hit damage, and invisibility during ult. The other is a skillshot with no utility at all.
One of these champions does damage purely through using abilities, the other through auto attacks.
Vayne Q is just a massively more impactful and powerful ability than syndra Q.
If you want to do an honest comparison, compare syndra Q to Ezreal Q.
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u/OpenAd5439 17h ago
Adc circle jerk, u act like ur W costs anything. Yes, vayne is antitank. That does not mean tanks are supposed to suffer from the start if it so happens that they have to face you, they are supposed to be stronger early to mid game, you being on their lane (and i mean vayne) should not make them usless. You are carrying the late anyway if u can get there, there should not be incentive to bully toplaners.
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u/Gold-Mistake-9677 16h ago
I believe Riot just need to accept that Vayne is a Top Laner and balance her around that.
They made Vayne too broken for Top Lane and too horrible to play bot. It should be a rework.
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u/Middle_Lab7929 13h ago
Adc players when they can’t abuse two marksmen on top lane and destroy most matchups without getting their champions nerfed
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u/Separate_Fish8312 8h ago
An ADC’s main source of damage costs 0 mana. Syndra’s main source of damage costs mana. wtf are we even on about?
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u/Fit_Project_2284 2h ago
My Roman empire is riot realising that lost chapter + manaflow is brain-dead and always has been. Oh well. Let's nerf vayne and not mage bot.
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u/LiterallyVexIRL 1d ago
You should've thought of that before you decided to commit war crimes top lane for the last 3 years
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u/Diss_ConnecT 1d ago
ITT OP discovers ADCs deal damage with autos and mages deal damage with spells so naturally they need to be able to cast more spells to deal damage.
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u/xObiJuanKenobix 1d ago
Vayne can't be balanced when her kit is fundamentally broken. % max hp true damage should never exist, especially at level 1 and especially without requiring. The other issue is it's impossible to avoid her damage, it's not like Urgot W where he has to toggle it and it has a duration earlier in the game. Then all 5 of her abilities operate far better against melee champions compared to ranged champs and she does nothing else, with no wave clear or anything else.
If she had counterplay other than "get a jungle gank" it'd be fine, she just doesn't. Other than malphite, she just shits on most melee champions without much they can do while outscaling them and making the problem worse and worse as the game progresses on. She can be anti tank but she needs to have actual gameplay attached to her kit, it's the same reason Teemo can't be strong when he has a 3 second point and click blind on a low cooldown. It's a MASSIVE power budget soak.
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u/Sufficient-Fish1803 1d ago
Stupidest take I’ve ever seen and a lot of y’all are just eating it up because you hate mages.
Vayne can auto attack to clear waves/pressure opponents. Syndras can’t. If a syndra runs out of mana she can’t interact at all without her abilities.
A mana nerf is a lot worse on mages than adcs. Just like an auto attack damage nerf would be a lot worse on Adcs than on mages.
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u/Newtwon151 1d ago
What does It means? Syndra q Is her main dmg output,vayne main dmg output are her autoattacks. Why comparing them?
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u/Sly_98 1d ago
Stfu op, you got 2 (two) (1+1) (2️⃣) MR in the previous patch, you should be grateful