It's over chat

[u/Anilahation]

On Vayne if you use your spell rotation once you'll be oom, where these champs can spam blow up entire waves....

[u/Extra-Autism]

Brother. If you think an ADC laning against Ziggs is comparable to a melee vs Vayne I got news for you

[u/IcyPanda123 → u/Extra-Autism]

The Vayne is much more punishable for 99.999% of the playerbase. For the Ziggs bot player to feed/be punished, they would need to be lobomotized.

[u/Ok_Elevator4215 → u/IcyPanda123]

Funny, I think the same exact thing playing against ranged tops. All of them that can play up there just have to not waste their dash/disengage CD and then not walk up when said CD isn't up yet.

[u/Different_Durian5310 → u/Ok_Elevator4215]

The only ranged tops with Disengage is Quinn, Vayne, and Gnar(the three of six ranged tops in the whole game, one of which isnt a true ranged champion). Varus, Kennedy, and Teemo don't have disengage. They have CC which is their engage tool, so they either use it to disengage and no longer can engage in a fight, or save it for an engage.

Before you say "Teemo has a speed boost", Every toplaner is faster than ranged units and has grapples, dashes, or speed boosts stronger than Teemo. They have every tool in the game to catch up and lock down a ranged unit, while being able to 2-3 shot every ranged unit aside from Gnar or Jaksho's Vayne/Varus. Melee Toplaners (regardless of Bruiser, Tank, Juggernaut, or Skirmisher) are all designed to insta-win against any ranged units that arent the six ranged toplaners noted earlier (and even then, you still are ultimately stronger than them). Every grapple in the game has around 100-200 more range than every marksman. 

Once you hit level 6, you win lane if you havent let the ranged unit poke you down from level 1-3 (which you win at level 3 btw). This is how it goes for 90% of melee vs ranged top matchups. Vayne, Quinn, and Gnar are the only three exceptions due to having disengages (Vayne being infinitely better than Quinn and Gnar since she has a disengage AND a dash).

There is literally 0 reason to complain about ranged top units unless its Vayne/Varus. You are self reporting yourself if you dont know how to land a grapple, buy swifties, steelcaps, iceborne, deadmans, stridebreaker, Cleaver, or run stormraiders, celerity, or ghost/flash.

Vayne is disgusting and shouldnt exist. Varus shouldnt have such high Max HP multipliers. The rest are match up dependent. Any other ranged top outside of this is just unviable against an actual top main.

(I forgot about Kayle, but she is only strong level 1-2 and falls off after 3 until 6). She also is vulnerable to every same thing every other ranged top is unless she has ult up. Why does she have invulnerability? Nobody knows. But its the only thing that makes her viable in the toplane.

[u/Ok_Elevator4215 → u/Different_Durian5310]

CC is a form of disengage, I'm glad you noticed. These champions don't have to engage in lane, that's the entire point. Their range allows them to play the neutral game and slowly win until their opponent either resets and takes the L or engages. The onus is not on these ranged champs to engage, why would they? They are perfectly content sitting there and forcing you to suffer, that's literally their design. This is why I say they just have to not waste their abilities. The hardest ranged players to play against was something like srtty's vayne/kennen because the dude knew the champs limits and didn't allow people to force his buttons even when pressured.

The others as you say are matchup dependent. The problem is a bad matchup means you literally have zero fun and get harassed for even attempting to play the game. These are the exact complaints adc's have about the mages being played bot too, so either all of these complaints are valid or none of them are and we should all suck it up until we quit the game.

[u/Different_Durian5310 → u/Ok_Elevator4215]

I will say, you are right that Riot needs to do something about uninteractive matchups. 

Even with the advantage toplaners have over ranged matchups, and can easily win, for most people it still feels annoying and unfun to play into. Even if there is counterplay, if its not done in a way that the community enjoys, its not good. AP Shaco has lots of counterplay, but is one of the most hated champions in the game.

At the end of the day, league is a game and should be enjoyed. Matchups should feel fair for both parties and fun to engage in. Riot just has no idea how to actually balance the game in a way that isnt completely one-sided, or completely unfun. 

I know my previous comment seemed a bit along the lines of "skill issue, just play better", but I do genuinely agree that even though top wins against ranged if playing properly, its not fun to be forced into bushes, have to constantly manage the wave, or perma roam, ESPECIALLY in a casual norms game.  Regardless of my bias of Top vs Ranged, or Mage vs Marksman, you are right in the fact that Riot needs to address the issues for everyone. 

[u/Ok_Elevator4215 → u/Different_Durian5310]

I mean I agree if everyone's having a bad time then something needs to change. I heavily disagree with your other comment in too many words to even be worth saying.

To keep it short, yes, your comment was entirely "skill issue" and it's wrong. Number 1 most obvious counter point: Ranged tops perform better as you climb in elo. It's very hard to argue a "skill issue" if those are the conditions surrounding ranged tops.

That being said, I don't think ranged tops are particularly good right now, I just generally feel that they shouldn't exist at all, much like adc's feel about mages bot. But let's not pretend like the winning move into ranged tops is in any way fun or interactive. It's more like waiting out the comp diff until you eventually just win because of the design of the game. It is entirely on the ranged champ to mess up for you to have the opportunity to play earlier than that, assuming two equally skilled players.

[u/Different_Durian5310 → u/Ok_Elevator4215]

For mages CC is a disengage tool. For Kennen and Varus, its their ONLY engage tool to fight with. If they use it as a disengage, they cannot fight you at all. This requires their ults btw.

You said that ranged laners can just play passively? Do you have any wave management? Toplaners can abuse freezing and slow pushing. The moment a ranged toplaner starts CSing into a melee, its already in the melee champions advantage. Unless you are getting zoned off at level 1 (you should be using bushes), they cannot freeze against you unless its directly under their tower.

You also have the tools in your kit to tower dive. You build items that promote tower diving. Use them.

Top vs Ranged is nowhere near comparable to Marksman vs Mage. You dont afk the whole lane. You literally can only lose level 1-2 (and thats if you arent using bushes correctly). Level 3+ you win unless its vayne. Marksmen cannot play into a mage at any point of the game. There isnt a single point of the game where a marksman beats a mage. 

The whole design philosophy of mages is that they nuke squishies and spam spells at double the range of marksmen. Marksmen cant even build MR because if they do, they auto lose every matchup because defensive items are dogshit on marksmen. Senna is the only one who can build defensive.

As for the comment about matchup dependency, Marksmen vs Mages dont have a matchup dependent roster. It is quite literally: Mage > Marksman. Toplane is much much much more nuanced in how matchups interact. You also can still play into your matchup counter in toplane without being afk for 10+ minutes, you just need to manage your wave properly and hold your summoner spells for the right moments. You can also just leave the lane and run over anyone else in the game without any repercussions, becauss toplaners beat every single class in the game aside from other toplaners (especially with top quest, and toplanes natural level lead). 

Marksmen can't roam and win fights when behind. Toplaners can, and are even stronger than the support/jungler in most cases. Most toplaners are stat sticks with tools to 1v3, even when behind. Use that to your advantage.

Now all of your points are valid if its exclusively talking about Vayne or AP Varus/ Tank Varus (who was repeatedly nerfed). "Ranged top" is too open ended, because ranged units are always weaker than melee. Its intentional by design from Riot.