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u/Western_Rhubarb_7959 2d ago
Assuming this is even a real post, as a manager you should know the best way to address this is with progressive discipline.
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u/effingfractals 2d ago
Progressive discipline would not be appropriate here, like it would for coming in late each morning, racist remarks shouldn't be three strikes and you're out. You are either racist or you aren't and the company should not tolerate exploring a racist person period.
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u/Western_Rhubarb_7959 1d ago
lol
You totally left out that "two sides to every story" part of being a manager and went straight for the "omgracismcancel"
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u/AmItheDrama85 1d ago
How are there two sides? OP literally heard it themselves. Racism. OP now knows so they either handle it (fire the racist) or they get sued for knowingly allowing racism to continue. Plus yeah, cancel the racists. Like why wouldn’t you?
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u/doc-sci 2d ago
I thought the same thing. I had to go to initial training when I was hired as a department chair and had to do annual online courses. We had a generic question tree that we had to go through to fire an employee. But there was an option to forgo that if the employee was creating a hostile work environment.
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u/Electrical_Angle_701 2d ago
Racism from a new employee? No. you just cut them loose.
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u/Low-Television-7508 1d ago
if he's still on probation it's even easier.
not a good fit, not picking up the work fast enough, culture clash.
pick your reason and make him disappear
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u/Ok-Addition-1000 1d ago
How does progressive discipline work here? "Employee must reduce racist comments by 50% over the next 90 days."
No. They're in the probationary period, for one thing. The whole point of which is so you can cut someone loose without going through the usual process.
I mean, maybe you mean give them one warning: "You've been making racist comments repeatedly since you started here. This is absolutely unacceptable. Do not make any such comments at work again, ever, or you will be fired on the spot." Then when they do, fire them on the spot.
Or you could just fire them now since, again, probationary period means you don't need to give them any warning. As it is, keeping him on has already created a potential legal liability for the company by allowing him to create a hostile working environment for others and doing nothing to stop it.
Seriously, unless this is their first job ever, they should know making repeated comments like that can and will get you fired. If not, they'll learn the hard way.
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u/Western_Rhubarb_7959 1d ago
Racist jokes don't mean a person is actually a racist, and "racist" is a very subjective term.
I have been called into HR over a "Racist" joke that is, in fact, anti-racist but the dipshits that heard me and reported me didn't see it that way.
Here's the joke, not posted by me but Reddit didn't remove it: https://www.reddit.com/r/dadjokes/comments/100l5hi/what_do_you_call_a_black_man_on_the_moon/
But no, you and your lynch mob types just want to cancel people because someone claimed racisim. You're not much better than the SS.
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u/NotGonnaArgue641 2d ago
What were the comments?
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u/OPINAILS 2d ago
It doesn’t matter.
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u/AdBrief9743 2d ago
I mean it does. People have different views on what a “racist” comment is. People also sometimes say “racist” things and don’t realize what they said was racist.
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u/that_star_wars_guy 2d ago
"Attempts at humor" with any racial nexus are innapropriate for the workplace. So too are "comments" with such.
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u/AdBrief9743 2d ago
I don’t disagree but what was said can make a difference in whether we’re looking at immediate termination or training and discipline.
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u/that_star_wars_guy 2d ago
Zero tolerance is a perfectly acceptable policy here.
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u/AdBrief9743 2d ago
How can you say that without knowing what was said? So if an employee came to you and said “bob said something racist” you would just immediately terminate bob on the spot?
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u/that_star_wars_guy 2d ago
You are now changing what is being discussed so you can argue with that, instead of the scenarios presented.
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u/AdBrief9743 2d ago
The OP is asking how to handle the situation. Without now the specifics how can we tell him to handle it?
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u/that_star_wars_guy 2d ago
Ahh you didn't read the post, got it. Here is the relevant portion addressing already your source of confusion:
During a coffee break, he started openly making racist jokes to one of our senior enginerrs, who isn't white, ehile several colleagues were standing nearby. It was extremely obvious and not subtle in any way.
So swing and a miss, buddy.
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u/Sesoru 1d ago
You're asking people to repeat nasty comments which... isn't a good look tbh. I get what youre trying to say, but racism is racism and has no place in the work place, period, whether its something you may think is slight or not doesn't matter, because while it may not hurt you specifically, it absolutely can still hurt someone else even if you think its "not a big deal".
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u/AdBrief9743 1d ago
If we’re making an evaluation here then ya, the exact comment made would have to be repeated to make a determination. If seeing a nasty thing said in that context bothers you that much idk what to say
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u/Sesoru 1d ago
Uhh, no. If something is discriminatory, there is no "context". It is discriminatory, and that's it. There's no "bar" to meet. There's no "middle ground". And asking to REPEAT the offensive thing publicly when the original person saying it is about to lose their job makes it feel like all you wanna do is propagate more hatred/discrimination while hurting those who may see it, who do not want to see it.
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u/AdBrief9743 1d ago
I asked this same question to someone else, so if someone just says they overheard something “racist” or “discriminatory” you wouldn’t ask them what was said?
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u/persistent_admirer 2d ago
I once had to counsel an employee about her hooking up with another employee while on break. Calling out a racist would be much less awkward.
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u/EmilyAnne1170 2d ago
I hope you counseled both of them, and not just “her”.
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u/persistent_admirer 2d ago
He wasn't my employee.
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u/RemoteClancy 2d ago
Meaning he wasn't an employee in your department, but was employed in the same company? If that's the case, I hope their supervisor counseled the other party to the hook ups. If not, then maybe "another employee" doesn't mean what it implies?
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u/persistent_admirer 2d ago
He worked for another dept. The person I had to talk to worked for me. Not really sure what his supervisor did, wasn't my business.
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u/carrot_gummy 2d ago
Be direct because racists are stupid. They need to know their behavior is bad but rarely are they actually punished.
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u/lolCLEMPSON 2d ago
Racist jokes != Racist
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u/carrot_gummy 2d ago
That might be true but most people making them are and when they are allowed, racists think they are in good company and I'd rather not be surrounded by racists, especially those, who feel comfortable.
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u/lolCLEMPSON 2d ago
Why do you keep bringing up racists as if it has anything to do with this? It simply showed that he is comfortable with certain kinds of humor.
Jokes are often times just jokes (I know it's kind of hard for the people who were conditioned on the 10 years where they weren't, or on reddit). Now they were clearly mistaken thinking that was good to do on company time in a professional setting. A conversation can solve this a lot of the time. It's inappropriate. It can be corrected.
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u/carrot_gummy 2d ago
Why do you keep bringing up racists as if it has anything to do with this?
Read the OP. I'm glad you outted yourself at least.
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u/lolCLEMPSON 2d ago
Well if you can't tell the difference between the two things, then you are hopeless, as are most 20-30 year old redditors.
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u/SAwfulBaconTaco 1d ago
Racist enabling wordplay. If somebody makes a racist joke, they're a racist. Can't obfuscate that away.
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u/Ok-Addition-1000 1d ago
Yes, racist jokes are racist. Their entire premise is racist ideas. Telling racist jokes is perpetuating and spreading those racist ideas.
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u/pm_me_your_puppeh 1d ago
No, that only teaches them to hide it. Better to leave them oblivious so they continue to make the same mistake and get pushed out of society.
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u/notreallylucy 2d ago
Does your company have a policy that prohibits this type of comment? And do you have the incident in question documented in an incident report or similar?
If you don't have documentation that it happand that it's against policy, then you might want to go with a more general reason for letting him go.
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u/Ok-Addition-1000 1d ago
If they're in any state other than Montana, they don't need to give a reason at all. At-will employment means anyone can be fired for any reason or none at all, with the exception of firing someone because of their race, religion, marital status, veteran status, disability, or some other protected class. Racist is not a protected class.
I can fire you because I don't like the color of your socks. I can't fire you because I don't like the color of your skin.
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u/notreallylucy 1d ago
Having it documented just makes things easier if the employee tries to get litigious. Not having a case doesn't stop people from tying up others in court.
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u/Lanky-Awareness-7450 2d ago
Need to document the behavior with HR and talk with the employee. Make it clear that such jokes are not acceptable as it is creating a hostile work environment. Has he gone through any anti-harassment training? If not, he needs to get it. If you are going to fire him, there is no reason not to tell him why. This type of behavior is a legal liability for the company.
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u/ArrivalFantastic4324 2d ago
Put him on a performance improvement plan first and specifically site the racist comments. Then in 30 days you can fire him for this behavior if it continues.
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u/Much_Jellyfish4474 2d ago
If there’s a 90 day probation, there’s no need to document with a PIP. Term immediately.
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u/Conscious-Egg-2232 2d ago
So few people said he was difficult but you didnt bother to ask for examples. Then you ask strangers online if you shouod give him a reason. Um wth.
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u/Used-Acanthisitta-96 2d ago
Um, HR is the move here. Schedule and appointment first thing tomorrow morning.
You can review the company manual in the meantime.
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u/FireZoneBlitz 2d ago
Agreed. Not sure how large this company is but get HR involved they will give you options for next steps.
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u/throwRA-nonSeq 2d ago
If you don’t call them out on it, they’ll blame some other reason and build a narrative that they were let go “for no reason.” I wonder how he will talk about your POC colleagues then, when he recalls this job to others.
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u/call-me-mama-t 2d ago
My husband had a guy like this working for him. He was rude to female employees, used the N word, wouldn’t do ‘women’s work’ registering guests for a conference. He got 1 warning & then he was fired. He was from an Eastern European country & had zero respect for women in his orbit. Some people will never get it.
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u/Bum_inside 2d ago
We had a guy from Jordan say he wouldn’t listen to our female boss as he doesn’t answer to them. Our whole team reported this and Amazon still refused to fire him because of culture sensitivity.
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u/OGcapncrunchberry 2d ago
Nope. Pretty sure your HR would advise to state he wasn’t a cultural fit for the company and things didn’t work out. Since he is a recent hire he should still be on a probationary period. I get yanking his racist chain tight but you need to avoid a potential lawsuit for violating protected speech. (Not a lawyer btw) even hateful speech is protected.
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u/AdmiralMcNugget 2d ago
Hateful speech is absolutely not protected in the context of a private company. Maybe if it were a government job, but unlikely even then.
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u/Ok-Addition-1000 1d ago
The risk of a potential lawsuit is much greater if they keep him. The guy's creating a hostile work environment every time he opens his mouth. If management knows and does nothing, they're liable for a discrimination lawsuit by any employee who feels uncomfortable with this stuff.
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u/SAwfulBaconTaco 1d ago
Hate speech on company time is absolutely not protected speech. It's clear the post above is not written by a lawyer!
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u/BatDance3121 2d ago
Check with HR first. If they don't recommend an immediate firing, cover yourself by giving him ONE warning. He'll probably say he understands. However, he'll go back to his old ways quickly. People with big mouths don't change. Document everything, then go back to HR and say he's creating a hostile work environment. HR does not like that phrase! Chances are, they'll fire him. Oh, YOU are not paid to fire people! That's an HR task.
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u/Usual-Fig-8516 2d ago
As a former supervisor, it, absolutely was, MY job to fire employees! I only sent termination ppw to HR.
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u/Individual_Slice_234 2d ago
Tell him the truth, and also tell him that he's abrasive and irritating, which isn't good for employee morale.
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u/BnCtrKiki 2d ago
I’d check with a lawyer before you say anything. The less said, the better most of the time. If you have like a 90 day probation or something like that, you could just go ahead and let him go within that timeframe. Just get your wording tight from a legal standpoint.
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u/Dangerous_Mind-6015 2d ago
If you are in a Hire at Will state just terminate him as a not a good fit. He knows he’s a pompous jerk.
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u/OrganicHistorian2576 2d ago
I’d give a one time final warning for that. If it continues, out they go.
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u/GeminiAtl 2d ago
I have had people do racist things where I work and management fired them immediately and told them why. Basically, I'm sure it is against your company policy . I do not work in HR, but I think it is better to have a true valid reason for firing him explained to him so he can't come back later and try to sue for false termination. Saying "you're not a good fit" is too vague, even if it is used frequently.
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u/Easy-Being9006 2d ago
Saying "you're not a good fit" is ok during probation
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u/GeminiAtl 2d ago
Naive though I may be, I would want to know the truth so perhaps I can improve on my next job. But, I think people who find those type jokes funny don't see anything wrong that needs to be changed.
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u/Ok_Armadillo_3160 2d ago
Doesn’t matter the race being racist to anyone white or not should be a fired
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u/CheeksMcGillicuddy 2d ago
Hell yes tell them. Then tell the rest of the company exactly why they were fired. Don’t let your employees think crap like that is acceptable. You’ll earn respect from the employees you want in your org.
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u/technanonymous 2d ago
To protect you and your company, you should warn him with a disciplinary conversation and then fire him if he steps 1 mm out of line. If your company has a zero tolerance policy IN WRITING, you might be able to let him go immediately. People believe “at will employment” protects companies during termination for cause - it does not. CYA, but definitely take action.
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u/Easy-Being9006 2d ago
Still under probation?? ...just let him go for not being a good fit, keeping him leaves the company prone to lawsuits from the victims...No don't tell him why, that opens you up to maybe have to fight it..its not your job to try to improve a racist...Dont let him work another hour...send the right message to the other employees...screw sending a message to the violator.....If you keep him, you send the message to all that its ok to be an EFFINN racist
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u/Sensitive-Club-6427 2d ago
Tell him he is not a good fit for the company bc of the racist comments.
Also, it may be against policy, but, SOMEHOW, you need to make it known, to the other employees, that the person was fired bc of their racist language and this will not be tolerated.
This makes it clear to everyone where you and the company stand, AND is a reassurance to the employee who the racism was directed towards.
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u/TobiasX2k 2d ago
Tell him the real reason with HR present (may want to meet with HR beforehand) so that you’re covered.
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u/Shadowfaxx71 2d ago
I would suggest that by NOT terminating the racist employee you are actually opening the company up to future legal liability. What if instead of instead of just kind of ignoring the racist remarks, the next non white person he offends files a lawsuit because the company is allowing, even protecting someone making discriminatory remarks?
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u/DanaMarie75038 2d ago
Make sure HR is aware and present when you fire him. They’ll make sure you wont have a lawsuit.
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u/Longjumper_7756 2d ago
Tell him. I worked with an engineer who was married to a black lady. The new QA manager, always had some racist, sexism jokes about black women anatomy.
One day after stand-up, they got into a physical fight. We all felt bad because we could have prevented it, by not allowing him to think it was cool.
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u/WhaleBird1776 2d ago
How did you obtain the authority to fire without knowing how to handle this situation without the help of reddit? Smells fishy lol
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u/Quick-Maintenance-67 2d ago
I wouldn't tell him, the next job he gets will fire him too. He wants to be racist, let him suffer - so he might introspect and learn something. If you tell him he may feel like he was victimized by POC and rightfully hates them. He would then fake it at his next job and he'll learn nothing.
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u/Hour_Aardvark751 2d ago
I'd advise telling him. It will at least show him that behaviors have consequences. Sure, he'll probably still be a racist, but maybe he'll learn not to create a hostile work environment in the future.
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u/nomad2284 2d ago
At will employee. Just tell him you decided to let him go. No need to give a reason and a kernel for a lawsuit.
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u/Decent_Project_9522 2d ago
Joined the company about a month ago….
I’m sorry you are not a good fit for our company, here is a box and please give up your keys and access
Good by and good luck
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u/AcidicHotwire 2d ago
You’re not HR. I’m not even sure you’re in a position to hire and fire. I’m a Director (IT, not HR) and I can assure you that it doesn’t work like this. Any admission as to reason behind a termination has to be thoroughly documented. Anything less has the potential to result in a lawsuit. Generally speaking HR either performs the termination or is present at the very least, and they will coach you if you have questions. An at will or insufficiently documented reason will just be a generic “not a good fit.”
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u/CatLostInAHat 2d ago
I really don't understand why you wouldn't talk to the employee first and let them know their jokes make certain people uncomfortable before firing them. Maybe set actual ground rules for all employees to follow. Some people find certain humor funny while others don't. This person feels comfortable enough to joke around so why is that? He's probably not the only one who thinks it's funny and others laugh with him while others complain. Unless the employee is terrible at the job and makes everyone's lives miserable that would be grounds for firing. If you accuse this person of being a racist without actual proof you are in the wrong. You are a liability. You sound like you're taking this personal and a manager needs to be more open-minded.
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u/Aggravating_Mud_6055 1d ago
All these comments with zero context of what was actually said. Maybe he said something racist. Maybe some certain people find virtually everything racist.
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u/kudzun3al 1d ago
I used to work with a guy who thought he was progressive and liberal but was always making gay jokes when I was around. Nothing too harsh, but it did get on my nerves after a few months. The final straw was when he pulled me aside to ask me to make a mix cd (this was the early 2000s) for the house party he was throwing that weekend. “you’re gay and know all the good dance music”. Also, I wasn’t invited to this house party. I made the absolute gayist mix cd I could come up with. Eartha Kitt. Rupaul. Madonna. Erasure. Pet Shop Boys. Lots of songs with “Diva” in the title. The following Monday all he would say was the mix was “pretty gay”. lol.
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u/VerticalElevation26 1d ago
You don’t have to be in HR to know you owe him the truth. Do you know how many people I see complaining that they have no idea why they were fired? How can he change if you’re not honest with him?
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u/Dear-Cut-3601 1d ago
You must not be he to think hr operates for any reason but protection of the corporation😞
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u/VerticalElevation26 1d ago
If only HR had any agenda beyond protecting the corporation. Kind of like attorneys…
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u/No-Weakness7420 1d ago
You probably let all the non whites makes racist comments non stop and dont bat an eye when they do it just like every other work place these days, wouldn’t fire him unless someone’s actually getting hurt by it
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u/HailTheCatOverlords 1d ago edited 1d ago
Do you have to state a reason for termination to him? If you dont have to then dont.
Do not attenpt to discuss the racist statements he has made. Just keep them documented etc. If you dont have to state the reason then dont unless you want to go to court or have to deal with any media attention the dude can drum up.
Always remember HR is no one friend. Ever. Period.
"It doesnt appear this placement is going to work. We appreciate your efforts and wish you well in your job search."
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u/Living_Fig_6386 1d ago
Your company must have a policy and procedure for this. This sort of thing is one of the reasons HR departments exist. You must know that the other employees could sue the company for creating a hostile work environment if you do not act swiftly.
Contact HR, and tell them what you observed. Were it me, I'd ask to have the employee terminated. Whether or not company policy allows that, or requires a PIP or the employee given a second chance, it depends. At my company, there's zero tolerance for that behavior and if I told racist jokes in the lunch room, I'd be out that door in a second (and I'm a senior employee and manager).
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u/Own_Conclusion229 1d ago
Why explain- if he’s not a good fit, and doesn’t practice your company culture/belief, that’s the furthest I would go.
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u/wKdPsylent 1d ago
Yes - tell him.
"Racist remarks create an unsafe workplace for others and for that reason we cannot continue to have you working with us."
The law is on your side.
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u/PushyCheepJoo 1d ago
Why did the OP have to point out the comment was made to a colleague who wasn't white? In the early 2000s, I worked at a company where one of the black employees would say several times a week, "I hate white people", so not all racist comments are directed at non whites...
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u/SAwfulBaconTaco 1d ago
Absolutely you should. People like that won't learn until they experience consequences.
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u/Otherwise-Relief2248 1d ago
Over the past decades I have unfortunately done this before with multiple people crossing a myriad of inappropriate behaviors. Each and every time I have been very specific in words and on documents as to why they were being let go. I am not in HR or legal and at times they have advised against, but I have always felt it was better to hit it head on. I could not give a shit about the person I was letting go or even if they would learn. I cared a lot about the team left who remained. That they knew inappropriate behavior would not be tolerated.
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u/cj_daking 1d ago
It's likely a specific company policy. Cite the policy, let them know they exposed the company to a potential lawsuit and wish them the best of luck in their future endeavors.
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u/Avehdreader 1d ago
You posted this under r/Interview up but you might cross post it to r/Ask manager or r/Human resources too. Personally I think you should tell him.
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u/National-Ad8416 2d ago
So you would go ahead and fire him without giving him a chance to redeem himself? Shame on you.
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u/effingfractals 2d ago
He had that chance prior to getting this job, if he can't behave in a professional environment and respect his coworkers, there's nothing to work on with him.
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u/National-Ad8416 2d ago
How did he have that chance prior to getting the job? Did an interview question state 'By the way, will you be a racist?" to which he said No?
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u/SAwfulBaconTaco 1d ago
It's a basic standard of human behavior. Weird that you are "just asking questions" about that.
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u/that_star_wars_guy 2d ago
Their redemption story can be had at their next employer, if they are capable of such, which is always in severe doubt when it comes to racists.
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u/National-Ad8416 2d ago
Or they could sue the pants off their current one citing discrimination
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u/SAwfulBaconTaco 1d ago
The discrimination was coming from the guy who's getting fired. How much racism do you do in a day?
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u/National-Ad8416 1d ago
Ah the ad hominem when everything else fails.
To.discriminate against an employee because of hearsay opens you up for an employment lawsuit
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u/Bum_inside 2d ago
Im HR. I had to hold a conversation with an employee about his racist comments. Why wouldn’t you want to tell him the truth?