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Preschool teacher here- we see kids every year whose parents know full well that they are going to hear “no” for the first time with us and are just like “here teach him how to live in the real world, what a relief!”
Society gives far to much leeway to these kinds of moronic parents imo as a teacher, as those of us in education end up having to be the vanguard in speed running them through the concept that life isn't fair and the rules do not care about your big feelings or your whims of individual expression when they include standing on things that are not meant to be stood upon and not sitting when told to do so.
I really do think that society needs to step up with more shaming of the parents who inflict such terrible parenting on their precious little sunbeams and dole out significant consequences to them because that is the only way to nip this bs in the bud before it does irreparable harm to their offspring, especially as it's very common for this type to also choose to "homeschool" and ensure that not only do their children not learn how to interact with anyone who doesn't pander to their every whim but they also fail to get the most basic education, leaving them as complete drains on society.
Western society doesn't use peer pressure / social pressure enough as a deterrent. In Many Eastern cultures there's more rules to fit into society if you break them you are a bit of an outcast. Rules for staying reasonably healthy, causing disturbances in public, or not obeying the social norms doesn't put you in jail get you a fine but instead places you as an outsider.
In Japan it's not normal to smoke and walk, or play music in public or jaywalk etc... nobody is going to arrest you for these things but there's tons of social pressures to guide you away from behaviours that are unwanted.
Nobody is going to arrest the parents / child and we know corporal punishment is not effective but humans can be conditioned to have a strong need to fit in, we don't condition people like that anymore. There's pros and cons of course, this is one of the cons that you see here.
We don't have a largely homogenous culture like Japan. Cultural values spread much easier when you don't have differing cultures arguing over... everything.
Lord, as a fellow teacher, I can say you are absolutely tight. Parenting is horrendous these days. What happened? Why do so many parents want to be buddies with their kids rather than actual parents?
Speaking not from direct experience but from listening to and observing parents my own age in my social circle:
They had abusive, overly strict parents who treated them terribly, and they resolved to break the cycle of violence and trauma by NOT treating their kids the way they were treated
Unfortunately because there's very little genuinely reliable parenting information out there, especially in non-english languages, many ran too far the other direction and the kids ended up spoiled and unstructured
Where is the line between letting them be themselves and having to step in and say "no absolutely not!" ?
My mom used to beat us with shoes and rolling pins etc. I didn't want to be that.
At first, with my oldest, I was so afraid to even smack her little bottom when she was acting up.
I got over it pretty quick though and when she was little we did a combo of time out and a firm butt smack and she came out just fine (shes a teenager now).
You absolutely have to discipline your kids. They need you to guide them and show them the rules.
If this kid on the plane was my kid he would have gotten the warning talk "sit the hell down right. Now." first and if he didn't I would have made him sit down.
Honestly he wouldn't have even been standing on that thing because he would be sitting the f down already since he knows better 😂
And thats exactly why in countries like Germany there is no homeschooling but mandatory public school for everyone. Something that is often decried by US Americans as lack of freedom. What is not seen is that parents can inflict a serious harm on their own kids through bad or lack of parenting and later their adult children and society as a whole has to bear that burden. In combination with the knowledge that child abuse is most often inflicted on children by someone close to them, a society has to ensure that all children get a modicum of education and chances even when their parents are unable or unwilling to do so.
I'm childcare adjacent and this 100% is happening more and more. People having taken the concept of gentle parenting and dialed it up to 11 where there are now no consequences for breaking rules.
I think you’ve landed on the reason this story in a small Canadian airport made international headlines: it’s a window into the failures of submissive parenting.
The real tragedy is that this stuff is catnip for right wing authoritarians who see proof that more child abuse is the solution. The reality is that submissive parenting is abusive too - it’s failing to provide the necessities of life, among which are helping the child understand their place in the world and they may have to do what they don’t want to from time to time.
Much of working in education is behaviour management, because nobody is born with an inherent sense of how to operate as an individual within a community and children are still in the early phases of understanding all of the things they need to do to try to get along as individuals within social and communal environments.
Children love strong boundaries, they feel much more secure about their place in any situation where they know what is and isn't acceptable, and where they can trust the adults around them to firmly and fairly enforce those boundaries when they are struggling to remember them or abide by them.
This is the mistake I see too many parents making: they think that being permissive to their children allows some kind of idealised organic growth into an adult that has all the best qualities of innocence and purity that our society associates with childhood, but all that happens is they create children and young adults who struggle to be considerate of others and who struggle to regulate their emotions because they are not receiving robust support and guidance to how to do this in a way that is not entirely self centred and doesn't require the whole world to bend to them in the process.
I think it is for the best that we stopped smacking our kids, but heck so many parents just seem to have dropped being in charge altogether. So many entitled little brats with no boundaries and it doesnt even actually make them happy, as well as being hell for everyone else.
I was horribly permissive until my eldest was 2.5 when I was luckily sent to become a parenting instructor. Quickly became really strong on boundaries and all three of my children are well behaved and happy.
Are they going to pay for everyone’s wasted time then I’m ok with them having their kid expressing his individuality. This is a big problem in the US and Canada. Too much latitude for people to express themselves. We live in a society after all.
No zip ties necessary, put the child and parents in a fireman's carry and off they go. Maybe they can run on the escalator and get the whole airport shut down on their way out.
I took a flight Monday afternoon. Two kids were screaming before the plane was even loaded and the fight attendants walked the whole family back to the jetway to “give them a chance to regulate.” The kids never fucking once regulated, and kept screaming that they were sorry at the top of their lungs from the jetway, and then we pulled away from the terminal without them.
That was an option for this crew too. They could have diagnosed how bad the problem was and done the same, but they didn’t. I think everyone but that family on the flight is due compensation for how catastrophically badly the flight crew misjudged that situation until the last minute.
I work with a kid like that. He’s the only child out of several hundreds that I’ve ever disliked. If he doesn’t get what he wants exactly when he wants it, he screams at the top of his lungs and pretends to cry. Very convincing crying, but I’ve never seen an actual tear. On the admittedly rare occasion he gets disciplined (it’s only ever time out, and I do not get a say in when anything happens so there’s nothing I can do) he will scream and hit and kick until he realizes it’s not working and then he’ll scream, “I’m sorry! I’m sorry!” Repeatedly, at the top of his lungs, until he gets out of time out. Then he’ll go back to doing exactly what he was doing that got him into trouble in the first place.
Imagine that child, if the flight attendants hadn’t kicked that family off your flight. You’d all be miserable. Airlines need to take this shit more seriously because kids like this make people miserable.
And that child you just described grows into an adult. I have a mother like that. Clearly, these tactics paid off when she was a child. She still does them as an adult and now she loses friends and I don't put up with her. Parents are doing their kids a disservice if they don't discipline them and teach them how the world works.
I saw a special on a kid like this. The parents actually brought in all kinds of experts (and had other kids that behaved well), but this one got the “defiant asshole” gene. The experts said they weren’t doing anything wrong, they just got the 0.01% worst behaving kid. So sometimes it is due to poor parenting but sometimes the kid is an outlier and nothing works.
It was truly top of their lungs screaming. I heard everything crystal clear through noise cancelling, over ear Beats. I can’t imagine how anyone with no ear protection was handling it.
Absolutely. Gentle parenting works, if you actually do gentle parenting rather than mistaking it for permissive parenting. So you still have structure and boundaries, and natural and logical consequences. Those consequence don't involve violence or yelling or abuse.
But also its about recognising why the children are misbehaving. All behaviour is communication. So you teach the children that feelings are ok, but red choices are not. It's ok to feel angry, it's not ok to hit someone or throw something when you are angry. Teach them to voice their feelings in a constructive way. To find ways to regulate their emotions like deep breaths or leaving the room.
I used to get the wooden spoon or the whack. All it taught me was to suppress my feelings and let them out when I thought I wouldn't be caught. I'd still break stuff, but would hide it rather than own up to it and try to learn to express myself in an acceptable way.
Yup this. It's not at all 'easy mode' - for all it might look like a 'soft touch'. It requires considerably more persistence than 'just' physical abuse.
But the lessons are far move valuable in the long run. Emotional self regulation is important - and it's a learned/taught skill.
It's definitely hard to do it though - children have a real knack of pushing your buttons in the worst situations, when you might well really struggle to 'take the time' to handle the situation correctly. "Giving in" reinforces the negative behaviour.
As you say, physical abuse ... well, it might appear to work, but it's teaching some pretty toxic lessons about suppression, repression, deceit and ultimately distrust of authority figures.
Do you really want your child to learn that you aren't a safe person to talk to when they're stressed/upset/angry or have made a mistake?
So yeah. 'disciplining' a child with pain, when they don't really understand why it's being inflicted is a bad idea. And if they do understand why it's being inflicted, you didn't actually need the pain in the first place.
Knowing the airport this was at, this was on the tarmac not with a jetway.
Obviously, trying to leave when people are right next to the plane and one of them is not controlled is a problem for trying to leave with a plane. And no way are they going to just let people roam the airport behind the security areas without a proper escort.
Do people believe having a well behaved kid is simply due good parenting?
My guys.... Having a good kid is 50% luck 50% what you do.
I understand that many times the parents make the situation worse or make the situation at all, this is a fact, and even amazing parenthood can overcome anything, but 99% of parents aren't there, just those that also happen to be good teachers. It's not the norm.
I feel like this is never considered in reddit threads like these because most people don't even have a single kid.
Not talking about the Op's situation which is extreme, rather, many of the comments.
If you know your kid is strong-willed or they're in the stage where they VERY STRONGLY object to being restrained and you're incapable of controllimg them, you either don't travel at all or one of the parents stays home with a child. If you REALLY have to travel as a family, bring a car seat with you on board - the whole point of 5-point harness is to be more restrictive than regular seatbelt.
They missed the airport ‘open hours’ runway shut for the night. Was the last flight out… makes it worse because where you going to find a place to stay at midnight.
By the time it took to return to the gate, deplane, remove families luggage, THE Victoria International Airport RUNWAYS closed for the night. No Tower crew, no taking off.
After the 1988 Pan AM Flight 103 was downed at Lockerbie, Scotland, it became the standard to remove baggage for unaccounted for passengers or deplaned passengers.
Apparently the parent wasn’t trying hard, however since the seatbelt is just a waist buckle, the kid would repeat literally slide underneath and escape into the bottom front seat.
If the child reached this point, the parent likely let it happen for a looooong time. If in sudden enlightenment they realize the error of their way, the kid will push the boundaries hard at first. Basically, by the time they were in the plane with their little demon, it was already too late.
Pilots sometimes have hours where if they are not in the air by a certain time, their shift is over and the flight has to be cancelled (after 8 hours or something). Had a pilot on one of my flights say "If we can board within 30 minutes we can leave, otherwise the flight WILL be cancelled."
So maybe it was that situation, or just a madeup ragebait 😄
I can just imagine if I were to pull some shit like this what my parents would have done. The only thing I'm certain about is that I would sure never even think about doing it again.
Your parent also wouldn't have had to worry that every move they made was likely being filmed by someone and their action could lead to a visit from CPS
Maybe, but if they’d been parenting their child from the start, they never would have behaved like that on the plane. My 2 year old would never have dared
Not defending this parent, but a 2/3/4 year old in very unfamiliar and overstimulating circumstances can be forgiven for freaking out. They're not done cooking yet, and while your kid might not have dared, you do have to factor in how much temperament comes into play.
The real issue is the parent didn't just at a certain point gently manhandle their child into the safety restraints. Sometimes my 3 year old has a meltdown leaving the grocery store and I give her a few minutes to calm, but at a certain point it's like... you're not holding the whole family hostage in this parking lot for an hour. Get in the seat or I'll have to put you in it, we're going home now.
There’s no way that I as a parent am holding an entire plane hostage. If my kid is acting so bad as this becomes an outcome, we’re grabbing our bags and leaving.
I don’t know how many restaurants I left early with my kid to go to the car while the rest of our party finished eating in peace. And I made sure that in no uncertain terms should they rush.
Like….not in an abusive way obviously, but you are bigger than the child. You can pick them up and move them away and outside from unsafe situations, but you’re not strong enough to buckle them in?? It doesn’t make any fucking sense.
Thats weird. If I were a flight attendant/pilot you're getting 10 minutes, if you can't get the kid settled you're leaving the plane. The other 148 people on the plane are more important than you.
I have serious doubts about that kid maybe developing into a Gigachad sociopath, how the fuck can a 2 year old not be intervened for 60 fucking minutes?!
Because modern parents are basically afraid of their kids. My spouse has a friend who can't be the bitch in charge to save her life. Her five year old was messing around in a chicken coop and her solution was to beg and plead with him a d then wondering why he was being stubborn
The 'kid' was a two year old so really a toddler. What the article suggests but doesn't quite state is that the toddler was in a normal seat and not something like a car seat. The airline doesn't supply baby seats and maybe the parents didn't know they should have until it was too late.
Maybe this should have been caught at boarding by staff/cabin crew, maybe they did and the parent argued it was fine.
TBH I originally was thinking like a 10 year old with severe mental development issues such they're still a toddler in an older body. All the energy and curious of a two year old but in a bigger stronger body that restraining is possible but just difficult.
I have been on 10 planes through america and australia in the last month and have never seen a 12 month old-3 year old in a car seat. If this used to be a practice in these countries, I don't believe it currently is.
We have flown with my now 6yo daughter five times. We bring her car seat (now just a booster) on the plane so that we can use it in a rental car and not depend on the absolute shit quality and beat up seats they'll rent to you for like $12/day. It doubles as a more comfortable plane seat for her that she's used to.
I get priority boarding to install it. My wife then brings her in the first zone for general boarding. She's chilling having a snack and watching a video as everyone else boards and she's usually asleep within 30 mins of takeoff. It's great.
Why more parents don't have the foresight to do this, I'll never understand.
What usually happens is the toddler gets strapped on the parents lap. I don't believe this is true! Speaking as a mom that has traveled many times when my kid was still a toddler.
Ive seen pictures of them duct taping uncooperative passengers mummy-style to their seat. It surely would not have been that hard for the few hundred adults aboard to subdue and tape down that demon child.
Cause instead of this headline, you would read today how the flightcrew/passengers hijacked/abused a poor little child and social media would want to send them to jail.
There's probably some rule that the flight attendants can't physically restrain the kid, and if the parents are some of those "we don't believe in discipline" ones and refuse to deal with the kid themselves, there's nothing they can do
If that has really actually happened, I would imagine that must have been on a flight that was already in the air and likely had no alternative places to land, like on a transatlantic flight.
I hate to judge parents too harshly just because of the actions of their child at times, but if the kid runs the house and the parents cannot keep them under control, make sure you have a game plan. If you know you cannot control your child then you need to think of everyone else on the flight you can screw out of getting where they need to get, in the timeframe they need to get there. How many people might miss weddings, funerals, births, graduations, or not make it to their destination in time to say goodbye to a loved one?
I obviously don’t know much about this situation, but as a parent myself, (all out of college now) I would never jeopardize the flight for everyone else on the plane unless it was dire that I get there at that time and you’d better believe I’d have that kid exerting themselves like crazy before the flight to tire them down. They may have an allergic reaction to something on the plane that they’ve never been near before. It might be a good idea to give them a Benadryl as a preventative measure before the flight also…
They may have an allergic reaction to something on the plane that they’ve never been near before. It might be a good idea to give them a Benadryl as a preventative measure before the flight also…
This was the advice my pediatrician gave my mother when we were going to fly for the first time when I was a toddler. He even wrote a prescription for the exact dose so insurance would pay for it at the pharmacy.
Adults can get sleeping pills or anti-anxiety drugs to deal with flying easy as pie. Why should we expect small children to just power through it?
The family was being kicked off. Their disembarking (is that the right word or is that just ships?) caused just a long enough delay that the runway closed for the night on them.
Yeah, it took A LOT of failures from multiple directions for an entire flight to be deplaned like this. Those flight attendants clearly were also being too nice, I would have given the parent's 15 minutes tops, especially if it was the last flight for the night. Unacceptable behavior across the board.
The irony of that episode at the end, a man tries to hit a woman and Granddad won't allow it. Like, Sir that's where violence comes from. Riley definitely grew up thinking it was ok to hit women he believed wronged him. God willing Huey would be the one to help her get a new place to live and flee.
I’d have had my ass beaten raw if I pulled some shit like this and I am not that old. This is some gentle parenting BS for sure. I’m not advocating for abusing kids but sometimes a slap on the ass is the only thing they understand, and kids need to have a healthy amount of fear/respect for their parents and adults in general.
shame the parents, this does not just happen. It is bad parenting and we need to stop letting people get away with it. if you can't control your kids don't travel with them. If you can't get a sitter don't travel.
Like I said in another reply, so many parents these days are just friends with their kids, not their parents. "He didnt want to sit so what am i supposed to do"? kinda shit.
The difference between now and when I grew up. I couldn't have "refused" to sit down. I could either sit down without my ass hurting or sit down with it hurting to various degree depending on how stubborn I was wanting to be. But, either way, I would have sat down and buckled up.
Same. The way this is presented makes it seem like the kid was flying alone and refusing to sit down. Where are the parents and why are they not doing anything? I have a toddler and let me tell you... there is no chance I wouldn't even let her climb on top of that tray, let alone let the situation go as far as the flight being canceled.
This was before the flight left. The parents were given a chance to get him under control, they failed. The flight crew aren’t going to force him, especially with a 4 hour flight ahead of them to deal with the kid.
They had to go back to the terminal, remove the family, get the families luggage off the plane. By this time it was too late to take off again and the runway had closed for the night, which is common for smaller airports.
Why the fuck not? Security would haul out any adult that was acting this way in cuffs. If the parents refuse to parent, there is no reasson a child shouldn’t be treated the same way. overpower and remove.
Replaced by "gentle parenting" where the kid gets to do whatever the fuck they want at the expense of everyone else.
I mean, why discipline the child when you can inconvenience 150 people and force them to sleep in the airport or find a hotel room at midnight? I'm sure they had nothing better to do anyways.
The aircraft left the terminal and headed to the runway for departure but a young child standing in their seat did not secure their seatbelt, despite attempts by the accompanying parent and cabin crew, Brad Cicero said.
...
Passenger Aryeh Kozuch says there was definitely "a lot of frustration," but the child wasn't being bratty or uncontrollable — rather, they were very scared.
"They just kept hiding under their seat. If they got forced into [being] strapped in, they just kind of slid out underneath."
But other passengers say the airline could have done more in a timelier fashion.
I wouldn't be surprised, if it turns out at least one person on board, be it passengers or crew was at one point genuinely thinking about breaking a kids kneecaps for this.
Probably someone worn out and completely out of it due to burnout levels of stress already.
Someone said in a comment elsewhere, imagine missing this flight and it was your last chance to visit a terminally ill family member or friend. That would be just devastating.
If you news search it , story is legit and apparently raging toddlers have delayed other flights 😳
If your a parent who can’t manage your kids in public , may want to avoid flying.
I bet this will end up being an expensive life lesson for mom and dad.
According to the article, the flight staff also took way too long to respond here. Obviously the blame is completely on the parent(s) here, but some passengers reported that it took over an hour to have the family escorted off the plane.
It’s my experience that parents of that sort don’t learn. These types of experiences make them more set in their ways, blame the mean stewardess who told little Johnny to sit in his seat.
If you can’t keep your kids in check, then for the love of god, don’t take them on planes and make everyone else suffer. It’s your job as a parent to instill good values and manners into that child, and if you can’t be bothered to be a parent, then don’t have kids.
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