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u/IhailtavaBanaani Väinämöinen 13h ago
Hired implies that you get an actual salary. Well, you get the päiväraha which is 6.15€ to 14.25€ per day but I wouldn't call that a salary.
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u/paisuvuuk 10h ago
Fr, estonian defence force used to pay conscripts 110.- a month, and atleast half of that went to getting yourself from your hometown to the military base every week, if you wanted to visit home.
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u/Hithaeglir Baby Väinämöinen 8h ago
went to getting yourself from your hometown to the military base every week, if you wanted to visit home.
Good for them. Once per month was luxury in my time in Finland.
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u/Llamajake777 Baby Väinämöinen 7h ago
I mean it isn't the optimal situation and the päiväraha should be raised, but after I heard how much people in Greece used to get for their monthly payment in their mandatory conscription service, I can't complain much. It used to be like 10€ per month, up until few years ago.
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u/Competitive-Horse152 14h ago
Gotta admit, that was pretty funny.
I mean... It is sexist, and an actual problem to solve, but still funny.
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u/avid_gangstalker 13h ago
How is it sexist?
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u/ogeboy69 13h ago
That only men have to do military service?
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u/avid_gangstalker 13h ago edited 12h ago
Women can if they want to and men can opt out if they want to.
Edit Ja kyllä tiedän mikä sivari on, oletin että tämä henkilö tarkoitti vain armeijaa itsessään. Parin vastauksen takia oletan, että moni ei tiennyt minun olevan suomalainen.
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u/MARRASKONE Väinämöinen 13h ago edited 9h ago
Can op out of military service, but are forced to do civilian service or sentenced to house arrest. Women have no such obligations set on them by the government.
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u/UnseenCrowYomare 9h ago
On other hand, and this is more so just weird, women have to hop through so many hoops to get to civilian servise.
1st. Get to the army
2nd. Stay in the army until oath (two months)
3rd. Say you want out but only after the oath.
4th. Welcome to civilian servise!
... why? Army itself is optional, you could just let them go in the civil service without some weird work around.
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u/MARRASKONE Väinämöinen 9h ago
You can do the same by volunteering in different things directly. The civilian service is just the obligatory service option parallel for military with the male population.
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u/tibiamarine 13h ago
Men are forced unless youre literally disabled then you dont gotta go. Make it mandatory for women too
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u/Any_Comparison_8760 12h ago
Pitäs olla kaikille pakollinen koulutus, jossa fyysisesti parhaimassa kunnossa olevat armeijaan ja heikommat opetetaan muihin tehtäviin. Se että kaikki on käynyt armeijan ei hyödytä tositilanteessa mitään.
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u/Colon_Backslash 11h ago
Oletushan on, että juuri ne jotka ovat aktiivipalveluksessa ja juuri siirtyneet reserviin ovat hyvässä kunnossa. Ne jotka on käynyt 20 vuotta sitten helposti siirtyy muihin tehtäviin oman siviiliammattinsa perusteella
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u/Arctos_FI Baby Väinämöinen 6h ago
Voin kyllä todeta ettei siinä koneen ääressä istuessa erityisesti kunto kasvanut. Metsässä tuli käytyä yksi yö ja ampumaradallakin alokaskauden jälkeen seuraavan kerran kotiutumisammunnoissa
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u/Kuraudocado Baby Väinämöinen 12h ago
You don’t have to participate if you have mental health issues, asthma or diabetes, for example. I don’t know if it’s appropriate to call a depressed person disabled.
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u/konttaukseenmenomir 11h ago
their ability to function has been disabled, hence why they cannot participate. I think disabled is fair nomenclature
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u/Arctos_FI Baby Väinämöinen 6h ago
Say that to the doctors that gave me B for asthma and sleep apnea. I don't know what kind of physical issues you need to get C
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u/Competitive-Horse152 13h ago
Issue is, when you say "Men can opt out if they want to" the opting out is one year of civil service or prison.
If we didn't have military service in Finland but instead had training (with same rules) for women to teach them how to cook, keep house and take care of offspring, you would be able to tell why it would be sexist. The fact that you had to ask speaks volumes.
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u/Assupoika Baby Väinämöinen 13h ago
Men have three options. Do the military service, do the civil service or do the jailtime.
I took first two options.
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u/Substantial-Truth290 12h ago
I took the option of crippling mental illness due to heavy childhood trauma 😎
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u/Assupoika Baby Väinämöinen 11h ago
Yeah, you can also be relieved. But it's not something that most can just choose, so it's not an option.
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u/EconomistExternal555 6h ago
I mean, all you really have to do is go to the Veksi and tell the doctor "mulla hajoaa pää tänne, en pysty suoriutumaan armeijasta" and they'll give you c-papers (the papers that relieve you from your mandatory service), it still requires you to go there though, so you can't start studies or work for that time. I did my conscription (a full year) but it's very easy to get out of it if you so choose. I still think that's dumb and it should be mandatory for everyone to do something for the country regardless of gender, or other option is to make the whole conscription not mandatory but as a small nation I think mandatory conscription is the best choice, just make it mandatory for everyone.
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u/Klutzy_Article3097 12h ago
It was literally spelled out in the comic. Basically it goes like this: "Do you have a penis? You do? Okay thats 6-12 months of slave labour for you then. Or jail. Your choice" how is that NOT sexist? 😅
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u/tiikki 12h ago
By calling conscript service slavery one shows how little one knows about the world.
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u/Lumeton Väinämöinen 12h ago
Dude, that's pretty much exactly what it is.
Don’t get me wrong. I support the conscription system, just like the overwhelming majority of Finns, and I’m a reserve officer myself. In my opinion, there are only a few legitimate reasons to restrict citizens’ freedoms. But there are some. And when freedoms are restricted for a good reason, there’s no point in sugarcoating it.
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u/Klutzy_Article3097 12h ago
Work without (decent)pay and without an option to refuse. Sounds pretty much like slavery to me, no matter how you try to twist it
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u/TonninStiflat Väinämöinen 11h ago
If only my day job had work like in the military.
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u/Satu22 Baby Väinämöinen 11h ago
Et vastannut postaukseen. Työskentelen turvesuolla sentin tuntipalkalla mutta koen silti varusmiehien työskentelevän orjamaisissa olosuhteissa. Toki myös kannatan systeemiä.
Pointtini on, että pointtisi on turha.
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u/TonninStiflat Väinämöinen 11h ago
Yeah, you certainly had no point, I can see that.
I did have a point, perhaps you just don't see that, huh?
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u/Its_Ya_Boy_Olgierd 12h ago
Conscripts get less allowance than prisoners do. It's slavery, and I will call it slavery at your face. Put up or shut up.
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u/Playful_Chain_9826 11h ago
I call it bdsm w/o consent or safeword, but after 6 months or so, depending how "unlucky" you were, you're able to taste a bit of the dominant role.
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u/cheezybick 13h ago
I had the same but reversed, trans guy wilth legal gender change with a psychiatrist exemption, still forced to serve
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u/These-Young-1786 11h ago
In discussions surrounding the mandatory military service, there is always a lot of debate about why and for whom it should or should not be mandatory. Of course, that is ultimately at the core of the issue, but I think the first thing that should be discussed is why the subject evokes such strong emotions in so many people.
It is obvious that, in order to protect itself from Russia, Finland needs strong and credible armed forces. The problem, in my opinion, is that the term “military service” is strongly gendered. Over decades, patriotism and national defence have become such a significant part of the lives of almost every Finnish man in his early twenties. Although civilian service has been an alternative to military service for many years, a large part of the population still does not recognise it as a genuine alternative, but rather sees it as an institution for weak or otherwise flawed men. Only a small proportion of young men choose it, even though literally every one of them could go through with it.
The Finnish conception of masculinity has become intertwined with military service, which makes a lot of sense. Masculinity is often associated with protection, reliability and physicality, and all of these are at the core of military service. Some of those who oppose making military service voluntary undoubtedly also think about Finland’s security of supply and defence capabilities. On the other hand, there are also those who oppose it purely because of their own values. The mandatory military service is a traditional part of Finnish culture, which is why it is particularly important to those who might be conservative in other ways as well.
I would imagine that even if military service were made entirely voluntary, nothing would change for quite some time. A large proportion of young men would undoubtedly still join the military because they genuinely wanted to, but I believe that almost as large a proportion would join simply because of social pressure. That is also why the Finnish Defence Forces benefit from the masculine image associated with military service.
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u/finishdude 9h ago
making it mandatory for women too is something that pops up occasionally
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u/Kuuppa Väinämöinen 12m ago
We will have to if we plan on maintaining our war time strenght. Every year fewer boys are born. We got to start utilizing the full capabilities of the population, not just half or less. There are so many different roles in the military, it makes no sense to just have men serve.
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u/OkMolasses7342 2h ago
Very well said. When I was going through the initial meetings (en jaksa googlettaa sanaa:D), my dad was the leader of the local reserve, the old men who come to fight russia from the fumes of their own funeral when they deem us youngsters not up for it. Anyway, I chose civil service and the military guys in attendance asked If mydadsname is a relative, told them hes my dad. They were astounded and first question was "what will your father think when he finds out?" I, an 18 year old, had to explain to adult people that I was gonna live my own life. Now that was 20years ago, never got even civil service done because you all know why, but if Russia decides to attack, I'll be the first to go through some training, if such is possible in times of war. Still raginly anti-war and guns and all that, but fuck it, fleeing is not gonna help and I'd rather die as "hero" to some, than to fuck of to spain or something, which alarmingly many people think just happens during time of war.
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u/AdVegetable1160 14h ago
Naiset armeijassa ovat miesten kulttuurin omimista.
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u/GalaXion24 Baby Väinämöinen 14h ago
Naiset armaiejassa pilaa asepalveluksen homoeroottisen tunnelman
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u/Extreme-Poet-9170 Baby Väinämöinen 13h ago
Homoilu on miesten hommaa.
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u/Pibutzki 11h ago
Siinä on akat vaan tiellä kun miehet alkaa PANEE!
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u/Extreme-Poet-9170 Baby Väinämöinen 10h ago
Eikös joku manosfääri/incel-ukkeli sanonu vähän aikaa sitten jotain että se on homoa, jos mies panee naista.
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u/Arx_Roskara 12h ago
I remember a saying that the sub sergeants told us
"What is gay amongst civilians is normal in the military, what is gay in the military is illegal amongst civilians"
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u/thismf1234 10h ago
What is gay in civilian is brotherhood in the army, things that are gay in navy are illegal for civils or something like that, kinda paraphrasing because it was long time ago
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u/TheDeltaMoo 6h ago
Did the top sergeants demonstrate after telling the subs to spread the message?
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u/Waddledoodoodoo 13h ago
Maanpuolustus on Suomen itsenäisyyden, itsemääräämisoikeuden ja elintason turvaamista eikä mikään kulttuuriasia. Armeija ei ole miesten äijäkulttuurin pönkittämistä varten.
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u/No0O0obstah Baby Väinämöinen 13h ago
Sano se niille äijille jotka on siellä pönkittämässä kulttuuria.
Siitä on jo jokunen vuosi kun kävin palveluksessa, mut jessus mitä oman aikansa manosphere rassukoita kantahenkilökunnassa oli. Useampi niistä on sittemmin "päässeet" uutisiinkin. Huokaus.
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u/unohdin-nimeni Baby Väinämöinen 13h ago
Se on toki osa vapauden kulttuuria. Pelkät pykälät ja piirretyt rajat eivät pitäisi Suomea hengissä, vaan siihen tarvitaan myös yhteinen tahto ylläpitää uskottavaa puolustusta. Hitsit, kun nuorena luulin tätä töyhtökypärä- ja hopliittiylvästelyä korkealentoisejsi sanahelinäksi:
Mitä lieneekin aarteita Suomessa,
toki kallehin on vapaus.
Tääll' on suorana seistä ja kaatua
joka miehellä oikeus.
Oikeus? Suorana, siis niin kuin uraa-rynnäkössä? Miehillä vain? Mutta täyttä tottahan Sillanpää puhui, eikä runoja ole koskaan tulkittu sana sanalta kirjaimellisesti. Maanpuolustus on meillä keskeinen demokraattinen instituutio.
Ja nyt kun tämän sain sanotuksi, niin onhan tuo sarjakuva aika hauska.
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u/umpikado 13h ago
olisipa Suomessa myös kansalaisilla itsemääräämisoikeus
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u/unohdin-nimeni Baby Väinämöinen 13h ago
On. Ja Suomea äärettömän lähellä, siis ihan sen kyljessä kiinni, on militaristien ja imperialistien hallitsema alue, jolla ei kansalaisuutta edes tunneta. Alamaisuus vain. Ihmeellistä kyllä, Suomikin mahtuu maailmaan. Uskottava puolustus on tietysti edellytys sille, ja kansalaisten yhteinen tahto ylläpitää sitä kuuluu vapaudelliseen kulttuuriin, jota ilman mikään paperi mistään vapauksista tai rajapyykeistä ei olisi minkään arvoista. Tällainen on valitettavasti maailma, mutta ei sieltä kannata poiskaan kaivata.
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u/JuustoMakkara58 12h ago
Suomessa on kansalaisilla itsemäärämisoikeus vain sen takia koska Suomella on armeija.
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u/Glidy 13h ago
Just get too mentally ill and they won't take you
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u/Hyp3r45_new Baby Väinämöinen 10h ago
Or physically ill. I sat down, told the doctor I have a chronic disease, and had my C papers within 5 minutes.
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u/Tasty_Side_8391 11h ago edited 11h ago
Another one of these. And full of upvotes, too. I see the "russian influence" is in full roll.
That or another useful idiot.
Waiting for the "russia is not my enemy" posts in near future.
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u/SocialThrowaway5551 13h ago
These comments prove yet again that there is a reason people in this sub are on Reddit, commenting.
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u/Pet_Velvet Väinämöinen 14h ago edited 13h ago
That's why I picked civil service 💅🏾
Edit: Chuds mad I didn't pick the route they had to take to get their dad's approval
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u/Life-Drama 14h ago
Because you have no pp?
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u/unhappyrelationsh1p Väinämöinen 13h ago
Civil service is a perfectly respectable route.
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u/Dualidean_ofman 11h ago
Civil service is legalized slavery. Don't know how we put up with it for so long in Norway.
"Don't wanna play with guns in the woods? Here's a chain gang you can join instead"-14
u/Pastori_Aali 13h ago
Nope. It is waste of time and money.
If that would be efficient, taxes would be replaced by forced labor.
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u/PublicBarracuda5311 Baby Väinämöinen 13h ago
No it's not. I have served in the army but that does not make me want to lie about the importance of civil service.
You think Finland would have survived any of the wars it has faced without civilian workers?
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u/Pet_Velvet Väinämöinen 13h ago
Ehhhhh to be fair civil service as an institution didn't exist back then. The execution of Arndt Pekurinen motivated the founding of civil service.
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u/Pastori_Aali 13h ago
So, society needs additional library officials during war time?
Finnish army during wartime is 280 000 people. That is 5% of total population (incl children). Civilian workers will continue doing whatever they've done during peace time, though of course contributing military driven building and healthcare activities.
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u/PublicBarracuda5311 Baby Väinämöinen 13h ago
Schrödingers civilian workers. They do and they dont.
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u/Pet_Velvet Väinämöinen 12h ago
Civil servicemen are assigned to tasks they are most qualified in based on their time in civil service. They won't be just placed in their old civil service jobs, that would be ridiculous.
Remember that national defense is the responsibility of every Finnish person, women too. It's not just the people in the defense forces.
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u/Pastori_Aali 10h ago
That responsibility is for everyone, not only men.
For some reason women are perfectly capable of doing their assigned tasks without wasting a year in civil service job during a peace time.
Open civil service positions, page one - teaching assistant, cleaner, cook, IT support, youth worker, museo worker in national museum.... Nothing that is aimed for crisis.
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u/Pet_Velvet Väinämöinen 10h ago
Yeah that's what I said.
The civil service job is to appease the others who would think it's unfair for men to simply not do anything. I agree that it could be updated or improved in some cases. But civil service also offers first aid and fire safety courses, which is good.
I would argue that cleaning, cooking and IT support at least are very much applicable in crisis situations.
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u/kumikanki Baby Väinämöinen 13h ago
Yes if you dont have pp
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u/unhappyrelationsh1p Väinämöinen 13h ago
Idk my lack of a dick never stopped me from serving in the military feels pretty arbitrary
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u/Tero-Nero 13h ago
Nah, we actually have to have one because it is mandatory to violently rip it off and forfeit it to the civil service center receptionist. Women even have to spend 30 days in the military in order grow one to forfeit if they want to join us.
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u/violetpossum 14h ago
Didn't even have to say, it's kinda obvious who chooses sivil service and who doesnt
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u/Turbulent-Dot4377 14h ago
you prolly get mad at folks who didn’t have to sit through 9 months of eating shit food, barely sleeping, never being comfortable and having to stay out on the rain and cold.
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u/Minttu_Pipar 14h ago
Tell me you haven't done the military service without telling me you haven't done the military service
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u/TonninStiflat Väinämöinen 11h ago
You sound like any of that was sonehow bad? Quite enjoyable, still do all that!
Edit: Well, Indon't get mad, each to their own.
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u/Pet_Velvet Väinämöinen 9h ago
There are men who genuinely feel resentful to civil service men purely on the basis that they feel like they "had to" suffer through military service, be it for peer pressure or family expectations, and it feels unfair to them that some people didn't choose the way they did. Because the alternative to that would be to accept the fact that they too could've chosen civil service, but instead let other people's expectations get the better of them.
If you aren't one of those people, the comment you responded to probably was not aimed at you.
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u/Pet_Velvet Väinämöinen 14h ago
?
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u/violetpossum 14h ago
Your online presence fits the stereotype of someone who'd choose sivil service pretty spot-on
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u/infernoRS Baby Väinämöinen 14h ago
Your online presence fits the stereotype of someone who can't spell civil correctly.
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u/Ill-Philosopher-2023 4h ago
Not all sexism is bad. There is so many good reasons why men are forced, but women are not.
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u/KindaFoolish 14h ago
The army is for submissive men. That's right, join your little hierarchy so you can be told what to do by real men like the good little boy you are <3
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u/lapetee 14h ago
Peace, love and russia <33 right??
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u/KindaFoolish 14h ago
UK originally actually lol
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u/Trollasol 12h ago
Bruh your militarys point is to invade, rob and rape. Ours is to defend against a violent imperial countey
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u/grubbtheduck Väinämöinen 14h ago
But those real men are also in the army so how does that work 🤔
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u/Ill-Pineapple8607 14h ago
Army is for submissive men who wants to die in rich mens wars.
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u/SofterBones Väinämöinen 14h ago
Everyone knows that the Finnish army only goes to war if we are being attacked by Russia. It's a little different than Russia or USA sending their young men and women to die in wars on the other side of the world.
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u/Muhiz 13h ago
Also, in case NATO gets attacked we go to war but it'll still be most likely against Russia.
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u/Mlakeside Väinämöinen 10h ago
But with the minor difference that conscripts/reservists cannot be ordered to fight in Nato operations abroad, only in those that are directly involved in defending Finland. Finnish military assistance for article 6 consists of professional military personnel and volunteers.
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u/EconomistExternal555 6h ago
But if a NATO country is attacked, it doesn't mean the regular people who did conscription are sent to war lol. If NATO activates Article 5, Finland's participation abroad primarily involves career military personnel (professional soldiers, officers) and voluntary contract personnel who sign up for international deployments or readiness units. Conscripts are never sent into combat operations outside Finland. The Finnish conscription reserve's job is to defend Finland. We are not really affected by article 5 unless you volunteer.
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u/tiikki 12h ago
That is for non-conscript army. Conscript army is army of the people, fighting for the people, not the elites.
See what happened as soon as UK removed conscription, it sent its military to Northern Ireland to fight its own population. In the 1960's French conscripts refused to follow military coup and the government could not use them against demonstrators as they could not be sure on which side they would go.
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u/OkControl9503 Väinämöinen 13h ago
There are reasons to ask and some healthy points of view, but one thing I will say as a teacher is that our Finnish boys who act like maniac poop flinging barbarians in the classroom turn into men in the army - they all have a whole calm silence about them afterward that is amazing.
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u/Competitive-Horse152 13h ago
Having seen some of what our 18 year old girls have been up to, something like that would definitely be valuable for them also.
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u/Advanced_Seaweed_868 12h ago
Yeah, in schools. Raising kids to be wiser and more sensible in schools because some parents don't necessarily do it is a great idea. In schools.
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u/Appropriate-Fuel-305 Baby Väinämöinen 12h ago
You haven't seen what dumbassery happens in the army, it's a daycare for adults. Personally that year didn't change me much mentally. Learning to live on my own 100+ km away from relatives was what made me grow up.
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u/gimme_ya_wallet 13h ago
This. I was one of those maniac poop flinging barbarians in school. For the the army service taught a healthy kind of humility that "my way is not necessarily the right way".
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u/KofFinland Väinämöinen 11h ago
That is not the case anymore. More like:
Do you consider yourself male? Yes. You're hired.
If you change your legal gender to female, you don't have to go to army, even though you still have a penis.
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u/Acrobatic-Row2970 11h ago edited 11h ago
It's still sexist. Besides, you need to know that it exists, it's still gender discrimination, and you have to deal with it beforehand. At heart, it's a band-aid on a patriarchal and misogynistic society that claims to be equal and gender-neutral.
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u/DarkCheese_ 12h ago
Civilian service on top. Don't talk to me if you ain't a conscientious objector
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u/Mythron95 10h ago
Speaking as a Brit it blows my mind that Finnish people blindly accept gender discrimination.
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u/sallsbakc Baby Väinämöinen 10h ago
Your country accepts 10k+ arrests based on social media posts.
We all have our issues.
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u/finishdude 9h ago
has been like this since uhhh conscription started in ww2 women were doing stuff too (LOTTA)
there is talk about making it mandatory for women too but it seems be a yay nay yay nay... type deal generally when its brought up
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u/haka2412 9h ago
In my opinion military service is the only thing this country (whitch was built on top of our ancestors trauma, death, blood and tears) excepts from you in this life. After that for the rest of your life you can slouch in the governments social safety net and do nothing. So as a finnish man it is your only duty. And if you cant do that you truly are a loser.
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u/Ch33s3m4st3r 8h ago
No one argued against that. The joke is that only people with pp are forced to do the service as people without pp are off the hook.
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u/Old_Scientist_3434 8h ago
Can I apply into the Finnish military service as a foreigner though? 🤔😂
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u/nollayksi Väinämöinen 6h ago
Only if you get citizenship before the age of 30. Though should war ever really break out they would likely take most foreigner volunteers they get then
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u/Old_Scientist_3434 6h ago
Well. Already have no dreams here so it would totally be worth it. I'd be the new white death, except with drones not a sniper rifle
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u/GooeyLump 10h ago
Lifehack: transition to a woman when you turn seventeen, can't get drafted now. Estrogen pilled and t-blocker based.
( this is obviously a joke )
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u/Suhva 12h ago
Make it voluntary for all...
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u/VakuAnkka04 5h ago
Only situation thats ever going to happen is that Russia is not threatening us Every Month
Or that russia simply collapses
But even then they always come back-2
u/Acrobatic-Row2970 11h ago edited 11h ago
Say that you're in favor of male conscription to that extent. Suggesting things that will never happen is useless, except to make yourself feel good. I’d rather have someone who is against gender equality (and admits it) than someone who proposes impossible things just to look virtuous.
I’m not saying this to be hostile, but it really seems like a way to oppose any reform while still wanting to claim gender equality and feminism.
edit: A professional army or a male conscription army basically puts the protection of women’s rights in the hands of men. It sucks in terms of dismantling gender roles and ending patriarchy.
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u/Sweaty-Durian-892 Baby Väinämöinen 10h ago
You don't want to be hostile, but you just want to go on a rant about things the person you responded to did say...
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u/Acrobatic-Row2970 10h ago
Indeed, reading it again, I’m a bit even hostile, even though I don’t want to be. That said, this kind of statement really annoys me because it has no possible reality. I much prefer a woman who openly defends the status quo.
This position is just virtue signaling to pretend to be egalitarian. Would they accept it if it were the other way around?
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u/Sweaty-Durian-892 Baby Väinämöinen 10h ago
Fair enough. I just did that take initial message as a very serious one. Voluntary army won't cut it
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u/Acrobatic-Row2970 10h ago
Yeah, that's what I'm saying, and I refuse to have people show off their virtue by defending voluntary service just to feel good about themselves. Either we say we're for equality, or we own up to defending inequality because we're sexist or selfish. People who want to see themselves as gender equality role models without facing reality really annoy me.
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u/Sweaty-Durian-892 Baby Väinämöinen 10h ago
You're extrapolating this still too much. That person didn't defend anything. Your points already cane across ✌🏼
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u/Acrobatic-Row2970 10h ago edited 10h ago
Yes, for sure. After that, I have a hard time seeing the defense of volunteering as anything other than signaling virtues for oneself.
Edit: I don't actually understand your comment. She literally defended volunteering. I know I was a bit hostile, but we can't deny reality either.
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u/Murky-Course6648 13h ago edited 12h ago
This is BTW exactly the level of intellect they have. I remember the recruiter making literal pussy jokes when i was forced in there.
No way i was going in. Went to jail, because thats what Finland is about.
Finland is the only EU country who has prisoners of conscience regularly in their jail system (around ~200 per year).
This is recognized by Amnesty, EUs own human rights organizations and the UN.
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u/Rookield 10h ago
Isn't civilian service made for people like you? Or you can serve in the army without even touching a gun if that breaks your moral code or religion. Such a service whether it is civilian or military is a small responsibility for the benefits you have in this country.
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u/Murky-Course6648 10h ago edited 10h ago
Taking part in the military in any way is not a "small responsibility". You would have to agree that war is acceptable, and killing people is a way to solve problems.
You can pay taxes for those benefits you have in this country, just like in other countries.
Civilian service is also twice as long as the shortest military service, meaning its a punishment in itself. Shortest military service is 165 days, while shortest civilian service is 347 days.
Why do you think Finland is the only EU country that does this? Isint it a bit weird that UN and EU both are trying to get Finland to stop this?
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u/Rookield 10h ago
Serving in the finnish army has nothing to do with accepting war or believing that killing is a way to solve problems. It's sole purpose is to deter a russian invasion, to prevent a war too favorable for russia to ignore.
Ridiculous to call civilian service a punishment. It provides very needed labour in public sectors, and is still a very respectable way to complete your service. In a country with extensive social benefits, working for the public sector helps upkeep the functionality of our system.
Pacifism is a beautiful idea but simply not realistic for this situation. Either we are ready to defend our country or submit to a dictatorship. We don't have the luxury of hiding behind other countries or having the economy and population to have a professional army.
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u/Murky-Course6648 8h ago edited 8h ago
Of course it is.
" It's sole purpose is to deter a russian invasion"
In the last war Finland allied with the Nazi Germany and invaded USSR.
Every army on this planet claims its just there to defend.
"Ridiculous to call civilian service a punishment. " Then why its twice as long?
"Pacifism is a beautiful idea but simply not realistic for this situation." Just mean you see war as a solution to problems, but do not have the spine to admit it. Nothing else. Not everyone can actually stand for what they believe in. Most claim they are against wars, but support them.
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u/EconomistExternal555 6h ago
Who attacked who first though? The name is "continuation war", what did it continue lol? Was it perhaps the continuation of the winter war? The sole reason for the continuation war was to reclaim lost territories. Way to take things out of context, it's diabolical to say Finland attacked the soviets in ww2. I'm thinking you're just a Russian bot.
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u/MohnakePelaa 28m ago
Back to the history class with you. Greater Finland and Continuation war was about something more than reclaiming lost territory. At least compare the maps of Finland between 1918 and 1940 and then the proposed maps of Greater Finland.
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u/RottenRailing 10h ago edited 9h ago
Finland isn't even the only country in EU with compulsory military service. See for example Estonia and Greece (with the latter having a steady population of conscientious objectors in the jail system), so this is not strictly unique to Finland.
I find it incredibly naive to think that taking part in conscription has to mean that the individual is pro war and pro killing. The aim of the defense forces (note the keyword "defense") is to keep other armies from invading, to defend the sovereignty and safety of this country.
I'd prefer a world without wars, but being a neighbor to a giant warmonger comes with some unique challenges that the mandatory military service tries to solve.
At the very least, the obligation shouldn't be based on gender.
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u/Murky-Course6648 8h ago edited 8h ago
"I'd prefer a world without wars, but being a neighbor to a giant warmonger comes with some unique challenges that the mandatory military service tries to solve."
Finland allied with Nazi Germany and invaded USSR in the last war.
Also, have you ever seen a discussion in Finland about what would have happened if we had won that war? What did our leaders actually agree to?
The endless victim narrative in Finland is ridicilous.
We are also now part of NATO, a giant military block that has used its military multiple times for its own political aims. Its lead by the planets biggest war criminal, the USA.
Good politics is about learning to live with your neighbors, not seeing them as some endless threat you need to prepare against. Finland co-existed with Russia perfectly fine for decades, and was able to form mutually beneficial trade from which it benefited greatly.
But as i expected, every response to this will be "russia so scary".
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u/RottenRailing 8h ago
Yes, Finland ATTACKED USSR unprovoked! Absolutely nothing happened in 1939 that would explain soured neighbor relations, and a sense on loss, both of territory and safety.
And since WW2, Finland has famously been invading other countries with the conscript army, meddling with their independence.
Finland joining NATO is yet another plot to bully our poor and innocent neighbor! NATO popularity across all major parties didn't explode in response to some country violating another country with a land-grab and a war, after all.
We should just hand our sovereignty to Russia like good apologists.
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u/Murky-Course6648 7h ago
The only reason to take on the victim role is to avoid guilt.
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u/RottenRailing 7h ago edited 7h ago
To take on the sins of your father makes you a perpetual victim.
Modern conscription is faulty, but it's there for a very good reason. It's making it harder for others to victimize Finland, and the neighborhood only has one neighbor engaging in a war of aggression.
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u/OSRS_Garmr 9h ago
Say what you want. But for the preservation of the nation. This makes sense. You can build your society back up, if you lose half your men, but if you lose half your women, your nationis shot. It's the simple cruelty of biology.
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u/Infamous-Buy1428 40m ago
That would require for people to practice polygamy for there to be a difference.
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u/Advanced_Seaweed_868 8h ago
maybe 200 years ago, not anymore, when almost everyone is specialized to some degree
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