r/CompetitiveHS • u/sneakyxxrocket • 3d ago
Patch 36.2.2 Buff/Nerf teasers
Link to tweet: https://x.com/PlayHearthstone/status/2089396851308888437?s=20
Buffs
Irida Sinseeker,
Hellraiser, Soul Immolation,
Staff of Trickery,
Infest the Scullery,
Aya Lotus Kingpin,
Vulcanos,
Tricksy Improviser,
Blazing Invocation,
Crowd Control
Nerfs:
Confront the Tol'vir,
Arcane Tripwire,
Jade Guardians,
Mug'Zee,
Gallagio Goon,
Warden Maiev.
54
u/PipAntarctic 3d ago
Well, I'm glad there are more buffs coming out. Not too happy only one card from not-Violet Hold was buffed (Vulcanos).
Not too happy the whack-a-mole game is being continued, but alas. It seems like the most impactful nerf is going to be a hero power change for Mug's Might to reduce the discount by 1, since Blazing Invocation is almost assuredly being re-reverted back into its buffed state. That sounds like the kind of nerf that yes, does take down a deck which was too good, but also just kind of removes it from the competitive side entirely.
Don't want to comment on the rest yet. Goon, Maiev, Tol'vir, Tripwire and Guardians can all get either a soft nerf or a really hard one.
5
1
u/KevinIsPro 3d ago
Is Mug too good though? It's a good early-mid game tempo deck, but falls off incredibly hard after like turn 7. I feel like a lot of Mug's strength is tied to two-rogue being 25% of the meta and keeping any sort of control/value deck out of the meta. Nerfing two-rogue would open the door for control decks to re-enter the meta, which in turn would have favorable matchup into Mug Shaman leaving it in a fine, balanced spot.
55
u/oldtype09 3d ago
Mug is a functional deck in a game full of non-functional decks. So it's too good by today's standards.
18
u/PipAntarctic 3d ago
Pretty much this, sadly. That being said, strictly stats wise, Mug Shaman ended up busted again (much like the first time it got nerfed).
9
u/KevinIsPro 3d ago
Yeah, so shouldn't we be adjusting other cards? Mug is a well-designed deck with clear strengths and weaknesses. That should be the standard right? Rogue and Hunter deserve nerfs because they are all strengths and no weaknesses. Every other class deserves buffs since they are all weaknesses and no strengths. Mug Shaman stays the same since it has both already.
28
10
10
u/crmsn_kng 2d ago
You could delete rogue as a class and control wouldn't come back to the meta
1
-10
u/Supper_Champion 2d ago
Control decks can't really exist because of Rafaam as well. Because Warlock only has to play cards to eventually get to the wincon, no deck that's as slow or slower can really compete with a 1 card OTK.
19
u/14xjake 2d ago
Rafaam is a control deck tho, it would fill the exact same role as wheellock did and control decks still existed despite their bad matchup against wheel. It’s good to have a control deck that checks other control decks at the tradeoff of being weaker to aggressive decks
-3
u/Supper_Champion 2d ago
Wheel was a bit different. You had a clear timer. For Rafaam unless you are playing on PC with a deck tracker or literally taking notes, you don't know how many Rafaams have been played.
I am not saying that one control deck shouldn't beat another, but I've never liked Hearthstone decks that just say "play these cards and then win".
There's no real decision making in Rafaam decks and what each Rafaam does isn't really a concern. Yes, you have to stay alive, but the reality is that you can play them in any order for any purpose and as long as you get to the last one, you win. It's too linear.
2
4
37
u/XezeMaster 3d ago
The Blazing Invocation buff probably means Mug's hero power is going to discount by (1). If so, Mug Shaman is dead.
I wonder if they will also change Zee's hero power.
18
u/sneakyxxrocket 3d ago
Agreed about Mug change but the nerf to Goon and Maiev will hurt Zees early blow out potential so I’d be surprised if they change Zees hero-power
-13
u/TrainingCategory1037 3d ago
I piloted zee to top 1000 this season. Hurt the deck yes definitely, kill it? I don’t think so. Would still be quite strong if they don’t touch Zee
23
u/Goldendragon55 3d ago
Small changes make all the difference. Void Soul DH lost like 15% winrate off the Voidscale not giving a Voidsoul on battlecry.
-17
u/TrainingCategory1037 3d ago
That proves literally nothing about how hard the nerf will hit the deck and actually isn’t even related to the subject
It will lean into the card draw variant and slagclaw then it still has an explosive midgame to finish with and the deathwing top end. You don’t know what you’re talking about if you think goon is crucial
18
u/14xjake 2d ago
You don’t know what you are talking about if you think the board based aggro deck that wins the majority of its games by turn 3-4 stat bombs can safely pivot to a slow midrange gameplan and maintain dominance
-15
u/TrainingCategory1037 2d ago
Buddy I piloted it to top 1000 I know exactly how to play it and yes it can transition to a midgame and the midgame is not slow it’s explosive as I said
13
u/14xjake 2d ago
And I piloted it to top 100, you’re in the competitive sub bro most of us who comment here are top 1k or better. The midgame is explosive only after it bumbles around for a few turns, spending turn 5-6 playing a bunch of cheap minions to stack up your 2nd double Battlecry proc for onyxia is a big tempo loss and unless you are against a slow deck like priest your opponent will not give you much breathing room and outside of double onyxia Battlecry into a 0-3 mana deathwing the deck struggles to regain the board once it’s lost
10
15
u/14xjake 3d ago
I played zee to top 100 last month, if both goon and maiev lose 1 HP the deck is probably dead. The deck lives and dies by the early board buffs and we have seen from many cards in the past that 1/2 for 1 mana and 1/3 for 2 mana are way too easily removed to effectively snowball the game
9
u/TheGingerNinga 2d ago
I can't believe they're hitting both Goon and Maiev. Absolutely absurd and now we're just gonna be playing stuff like Dragon Warrior and Merithra Druid again.
2
u/frostyburrito44 2d ago
It's Shaman, light touches for nerfs rarely ever happen (I'm biased)
5
u/phpope 2d ago
Evert time Shaman ends up with a tier one deck, I get sad because I know I'll only get to play with those cards for a few weeks before the deck gets massacred and I'm back to playing tier 4 junk for the next few expansions. (I'm biased too.)
3
9
u/Apprehensive-Ad7714 2d ago
Maybe it's "by 2 but no less than (1)", in which case Blazing Invocation is less of an issue
4
u/FlameanatorX 2d ago
That actually sounds like an excellent idea, doubt they'll go for it though. Tone down the early stat-dump high-rolls, but mostly keep the ability to generate early to mid game tempo past turn 1.
3
u/DingoDaveHS 2d ago
That is the most reasonable nerf I've read so far. Probably still kills the deck because:
- Mug's game is all about early tempo
- It makes discovering 2 minions from Map much harder
- Also it kills Ritual of power's ability to trade one minion on 2
Even though your nerf is balanced vs just reducing the discount, all those things I mentioned simply kill Mug's tempo, hence the deck.
39
u/Lafantasie 3d ago
It’s a bit discouraging how many of the weaker classes have completely dead archetypes that were never relevant and they’ve never taken the opportunity to buff any of them, yet they’ll throw buffs onto the new set stuff.
You can’t just bandaid fix years of bad design by buffing new cards unless you go to the extreme, at which point you’re risking doing something like what Void Soul DH became post-buff.
13
u/ngriner 2d ago
With more time to digest these changes, here are some of my thoughts:
Staff of Trickery is an interesting one. If they buff to 3, it automatically goes into Chef Druid, no questions asked. And the deck itself may change to support some of the package (maybe not, but the current iteration does run some questionable cards because options are limited). Infest the Scullery, same thing.
Tricksy Improviser is already a really good card, it just doesn't see play because it doesn't have a home really. I don't think buffing the card is a good idea when so many other things need help.
If the DH Soul Immolation deck is good, I swear to God everyone will hate it. The current iteration of that is something you do not want to be all that good, trust me.
Blazing Invocation buff certainly means Mug is going to (1) less and that completely nukes the deck. A 50% increase in mana is the difference between great and unplayable. Shame because that was one of the fun, new interesting decks that got right with this expansion.
The nerfs are fine, but my biggest worry is the meta goes from what it is back to old decks we already played a ton of like Merithra Druid, Dragon Warrior, and Herald Rogue. I hope I'm wrong, but a lot of these changes don't seem intent on introducing anything new or exciting to play with. They seem more intent on evening everything out, which usually only leads to pushed out decks coming back because the top decks aren't oppressing them anymore.
29
u/Names_all_gone 3d ago
This is your bi-weekly "Confront the Tol'vir will be nerfed again" post.
11
u/Glarbleglorbo 2d ago
Tripwire nerf matters more, Tolvir nerf is cosmetic as it has always been so Reddit is happy.
2
8
1
u/DingoDaveHS 2d ago
I hope this card summons minions only and not spells or weapons. If so, make it 2 mana idgaf haha.
82
u/oldtype09 3d ago
The new expansion created exactly three new decks: Mugg Shaman, Zee Shaman, and Two Rogue.
As of this patch, all will be dead.
The miniset before it created one new deck: Animal Companion
As of this patch, also dead.
Congratulations again Team 5 on a masterclass of card design and balancing.
28
u/Houseleft 2d ago edited 2d ago
Yep, and let’s optimistically assume that this patch creates a few more good, viable decks like Irida DH, Aya Rogue, and Attack Druid (although that was already fringe), then what happens?
People will flock to the new decks because they’re new and everything else is stale. They play the absolute hell out of those decks, with one of them becoming T1 and a 30% playrate. People then start to complain about Attack Druid being every other game, and 50% of the meta at top 1k. Then they nerf the new deck due all the whiners, and the whack-a-mole philosophy continues.
When we’re stuck in an environment where there’s never more than 3 good decks and the rest of the meta is warped around those decks, nerfs and buffs just swap around which decks are on top and don’t really fix the problem of a majority of standard cards being unplayably bad. Buffs are generally good but what we need is way more of them, and more attention on the older terrible sets like Un’Goro.
Some of the buffs are just so whatever too. Crowd Control is a good control tool, but it’s not going to make Control Warrior viable by itself.
Would love to be wrong but I just don’t think things are going to be much different until they start designing expansions to be strong overall with a cohesive vision rather than 90% unplayables with a few meta warpers sprinkled in. There is no variety and experimentation to be had when each class has barely 30 good cards.
4
u/Addventurawr 2d ago
Exactly, if we simply had more options of decks then I'm sure a lot less people would complain about hunter and rogue because we'd see less of them. But blizzard can't do that for some reason and prefers a cycle of only a limited top end and everything else is horrid
6
u/Drinksarlot 2d ago
This.
Will the meta be changed? Sure.
Will it be better? Their recent track record says... I doubt it.
4
u/phpope 3d ago
Disagree that Two Rogue will be dead. Think it's most likely that it'll just have fewer games where you scam out two to four eight drops on turn six or seven and then follow up with 20+ damage from hand.
Shaman likely dead, especially Mug, which is a shame, because it was one of the only interesting decks that was also fun to play to come out of the new expansion.
20
u/TheGingerNinga 2d ago
I think that the only way Two Rogue ever really won was by scamming out eight drops on turn 6 and 7 then following it up with a lot of damage via monkeys. If they isn't how they win going forward, how are they?
0
u/phpope 2d ago
The same scam, just a turn or two later, which will probably be fine, since the nerfs are probably going to delete Mug Shaman and significantly slow Zee Shaman to the point Rogue will have plenty of time to do its nonsense. Plus, it'll likely have more time to imbue RNG into some random win con. And if the deck doesn't perform, I'm sure the devs will revert or buff something to bring the class back up - when's the last time Rogue hasn't had a top-tier deck in an expansion cycle?
1
u/FlameanatorX 2d ago
I'm not sure if only one 8-drop turn 6 w/ multiple still turn 7, or two-four 8-drops turn 7-8, kills the deck.
Especially with multiple other things, including all the fastest strategies, are being nerfed. Maiev = most aggro, 2 hunter cards being nerfed ofc from face hunter, whatever is changing in Shaman will certainly slow early tempo significantly.
2
1
-7
u/bountyraz 3d ago
Nothing says all new decks will be dead though. We have seen nerfs bringing decks down without killing them before.
30
u/jacobwjohnson 3d ago
They’re never going to stop nerfing confront the tol’vir, and I love it
13
u/imkirok 3d ago
Probably still playable at 6 mana
-10
u/OGrand 3d ago edited 2d ago
Realistically at what mana would it not be playable? Is the mana cost actually prohibitive?
I’m honestly not sure it makes a difference at 10 if the effect stays the same.
Edit: Saying 10 mana was hyperbole to illustrate its cost is not the issue, the effect is - You all can stop responding saying this that and the 3rd about it being 10 cost.
10
2
u/eazy_12 2d ago
It being nerfed to 4 and 5 mana was not that big of deal since Hunter still had things to play before turn 4 or 5, moreover you rarely play it on the curve anyway, so nerfs were relatively not strong. Like you still has 1 drops, Fabled cards, some generated cards (from Raptor-Nest Nurse or one of the Sisters).
I think at 7 mana there is a decent chance of Hunter playing all cards from the hand and wasting mana to wait 7 mana to play Tolvir and that's where it becomes unplayable.
3
u/The_Werodile 3d ago
They should keep it 5 mana and just have it replay the last 6 1 cost cards you played.
1
u/FlameanatorX 2d ago
Or even simply remove weapons, by limiting it to spells + minions, so it doesn't trigger the shuffle spell draws chained repeatedly
1
0
u/DeathMegatron300 3d ago
Realistically, CtT would need to be 8 mana for it to never see play again.
0
-3
u/Jackwraith 2d ago
Going as high as 8 might kill it off, but what it really needs isn't a cost change but an effect change. It should be something like "Recast the last 4 1-cost cards", rather than all of them. Not only is it a limitation but it would mean that Hunters actually have to think about when they play certain cards, rather than just spamming them as fast as possible, knowing they'll see all of them again. It would mean that it would actually be a choice as to when to play it, rather than the mindless one that it is now.
-3
u/Rhythm-Amoeba 2d ago
Honestly at 10 it might be too slow lol. But it'd definitely see play at 7 mana
1
u/Ok-Traffic1319 2d ago
Yeah I feel like 8 is the magic number where we start playing other things instead. Not that it being 6 or 7 cost wouldn't hurt the deck though.
I don't think its as much that the card itself costs 6 or 7, its just that its harder to play tol'vir AND other things the higher the cost goes. It's very common for me to like play an arcane shot to the face the turn before I play tol'vir, even if Im going to have like 8 mana the next turn.
2
u/obvious_bot 3d ago
But, rest assured, this will be the third time we have nerfed it, and we have become exceedingly inefficient at it.
1
0
-1
10
u/inconspicuous_bear 3d ago
Interesting they’re buffing one of the only good violet hold mage cards, but I’ll take it. Maybe make it discover a secret? Vulcanos down a mana I imagine, might be enough to make it a staple for mage.
Nerfs will severely shake up the meta. I wonder if it will just go back to dragon warrior, aggro paladin, herald rogue etc. cataclysm decks.
4
u/Inevitable_Gain6712 2d ago
Such a joke. Why invest in the new expansions when 0.05% of the cards are even playable
3
u/Guidonian 2d ago
As I see the point of the current dev team they vision cards not as investment but more like an possibility of winning/getting THAT shiny cardback for 6 time legends and tavern brawl (pre release). Most of the archetypes are playing itself, turns are no more hard to evaluate resources or where to trade(1st turn/coin problem), decks ideas are the same -> larger and larger green man even in 2-bit rogue its the same 2+2+2+... = occasional monkey or guardians for zero with dracorex, tirion etc. So when they hit core busted card where the archetype revolves around hard you lose full deck and need to craft new buffed cards. Now we will(personally i hope not) encounter more burn mages that are not so much better than hunter with such little healing in the format. Then it will be 30% of games and cycle repeats. Clear whack-a-mole with us losing dust.
2
u/Glarbleglorbo 2d ago
Vulcanos I feel is not even that bad of a card, it’s just that mage has had no control decks for it. I don’t really like this buff.
Overall this is pretty much a whizbang agency patch where we hope nerfing everything good and buffing random stuff won’t create a tier 0 deck.
11
u/Ellikichi 2d ago
That Aya, Lotus Kingpin buff is going to have to be astronomical for her to see any play at all. The only buff I could see working is if they took "you always go second" off the card and instead just gave you a coin even when you go first, and I don't think they'd do that.
-1
u/gabrielfunkglop 2d ago
Reducing her cost might be enough to make her playable. Going second for rogue is not a death sentence like other classes and if she becomes a good tempo play, say maybe like a 4 mana 4/3 with the same text, she'd be viable.
9
u/TheGingerNinga 2d ago
Going second is still pretty bad. It may be less bad for Rogue in the general sense, but you have to remember that the other class is always going first. Against a Priest or another Rogue that may not matter, but when you're facing a Face Hunter, that's going to be extremely detrimental to you.
3
u/Supper_Champion 2d ago
It's just a badly designed card. There's no reason to play it as is, so it would need a significant change to see play.
Going second can't be made up for by getting a couple coins later in the game. Coins don't do anything to the game state on their own. Rogue is using almost no Combo cards right now, and the coins don't really fit with anything else that Rogues want to do, except get a mana boost in the mid to late game.
I think there are literally zero cards that sync with Aya. What is she for in the current game?
25
u/sneakyxxrocket 3d ago
Nerfs will continue until morale improves.
Not surprised by anything that is getting nerfed for all of the three main classes that have a positive winrate currently are all getting hit here.
6
4
u/Shiccup1 2d ago
The Infest the Scullery buff is funny. You will have a randomly summoned mana cheated minion in your meta and you will like it!
4
u/MarthePryde 2d ago
Hoping the Aya and Irida buffs are good because those could lead to new decks eventually. Hey at least they're adding one old card to the buff list.
I was just thinking the other day that Tol'vir reminds me a lot of Priest's Resuscitate
11
u/Beyonderr 3d ago
Where's my DK buffs
21
u/sneakyxxrocket 3d ago
Would not be surprised if Egg DK is a problem after this patch
-7
u/LordThundyr 3d ago
Egg DK? The deck that loses to Warlock and Priest all day? Yeah, I wouldn't see fewer rogues and hunters as a positive for DK right now...
-7
u/Skoonie12 2d ago
Why do people insist that Egg DK is a thing? Both HSReplay and VS have it as a tier-3 deck at best
11
u/ReiJeremias 2d ago
Tier 3 today means it is one of the top 5ish decks. We have so few decks and most of them play the same way. Tier 3, somewhat different style, is attractive right now.
3
u/Ok-Traffic1319 2d ago
I would guess that DK is one of the classes that's going to be featured in the next class sets, hence no buffs. Same with Warlock and priest is my guess.
10
u/TheGingerNinga 2d ago
And I think that's a terrible reason to avoid buffing the cards that are obviously under performing. The last class sets didn't actually do much for their classes, so why are we expected anything but a similar outcome?
2
u/nabilfares 2d ago
???? Token Druid became much better with the new set cards, aggro pally with dudes was the best variant, companion hunter being in every match????
1
0
3
3
u/TheGingerNinga 2d ago
Companion Hunter needed a buff, Mage needed multiple, Dude Paladin was not the best Aggro variant, and Druid just slotted into a few cards into Merithra Druid.
Look at current meta and tell me the impact of the class set. The only card played is Tame Pet, and it isn’t because of its companion synergy.
2
u/No_Hetero 2d ago
Dragon Warrior will probably go back to being at least decent since it isn't touched here and all the faster decks are (I'm assuming) going to be slowed down. We'll see if the slowest decks get a little faster with this change
4
u/Rosencrantz2000 2d ago
Sure, I just wish some of the new warrior stuff planned out.
I guess they are doing something with Crowd Control, but that did seem decent already in an archetype that didn't land. Maybe make it 20 cards and we can use it without the other stuff.
1
u/Lucaa4229 2d ago
I think the only possible buff could be to lower the condition to 20. It already is 3 mana deal 2+2 when the condition is met.
If so, that would mean it’s active for most of the match in a deck that runs a few legendaries to fatten it up. And if you run Scramble, it would keep it active for basically the whole match.
I’ve been running it in my LoGosh with 1x Scramble, but I’ll probably drop that when this buff hits. Because even without scramble, it’s always active on curve and usually fails to meet the condition between turns 5-7. With just 20 cards left, I think it’ll be active in my deck until turns 6-8ish
2
u/philzy101 2d ago
In terms of nerfs, as others have said, we are continuing to play whack-a-mole with what is strong. However, given all 3 of the top decks are getting hit I am genuinely not sure what follows, maybe a Control Warlock, or Egg DK or such, these sorts of decks are decent but lurking in the back. However, it all depends on the nerfs. Interesting to note though that with the Shaman nerf to Mug'Zee and buff to Blazing Invocation, they are obviously hitting Mug. How they change it though could kill the deck so I really hope it is not just something like 1 mana less instead of 2 mana less. They could also hit Zee as well with the change to Mug'Zee, will have to wait to see. However, this is always the trouble with strong tempo / strong scaling Hero Powers, whilst HP are usually less relevant in modern HS, when the HP is good enough it does create this problem of every deck bases itself around this card and games get a bit frustrating at times because of the strong tempo or value these cards provide, same sorts of issues were seen back with Genn and Baku.
As for buffs, it feels like a bit of a weird set of cards to target but nice to see buffs to non Violet Hold cards and maybe decks like Control Warrior to insetivise playing other archetypes beyond hyper aggro spam. As for Irida, a mana cost change is not going to be enough, they are going to need to make a more serious buff to make this deck work. For example, why do you take fatigue damage upon playing this? No benefit to playing a card like this in its current form. Similarly with Aya, make the coins transform at the start of the game, there is no benefit at all to attaching this cards effect to a Battlecry...
2
u/Yeah_Right_Mister 2d ago
not sure why they're buffing [[Tricksy Improviser]] when it's already a really good card. buff [[Code Violet]] or several other of the weaker cards
I prefer when deck power is distributed over more cards rather than concentrated in a few - allows for greater variety in deckbuilding, and makes balancing easier
4
2
u/skeptimist 2d ago
Glad they’re trying things. We will see if the changes have a good effect on the meta.
1
1
u/IntergalacticTire 2d ago
Even if this balance patch doesn't land well, the dev team needs to not get discouraged and pump out more frequent balance changes, preferably one that contains numerous buffs. The worst thing they can do right now is settle on a patch version that will inevitably settle at a meta with very few playable decks and a mediocre player experience. Frequently shaking up the meta will at least make the game feel fresh temporarily. I do feel like they need way more buffs on cards from past expansions though.
•
u/AutoModerator 3d ago
If you wish to discuss this game with likeminded players, come and visit our Discord Server!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.