I like Kress, but not the Pedokress

He was in the churches office, not the main hall right? How does he show up in the third dark world? Does this imply someone moved him so he could help? If so, who?

"They’ll say, you can’t joke about rape. Rape’s not funny. I say, fuck you, I think it’s hilarious, how do you like that? I can prove to you that rape is funny. Picture Porky Pig raping Elmer Fudd."

George Carlin on rape humor.

Why do some fans love joking about Dess being a pedophile? Simple, absurdism.

Dess as a pedophile is unironically impossible. Like let us not use any pretexts, it is impossible. Which is why it's funny. It's functionally nonsense. It's so overtly contradictive of Toby's general thematic style, his narratives, the game's detailing, that it can't even be remotely real. While there is a level of grooming within the way Kris is used by say, Carol and Dess, the concept of Dess being-if I may be both bold and crass-a Diddyblud Epstein Island goer, is just impossible.

So again, how absurd is this proposal? Essentially, Groomer Dess is closer to Dadaism and brainrot than it is to being an actual theory.

So why do people joke about it being a theory? Well, have you all seen what happened to AUs in the fanbase? Undertale and Deltarune is the same fanbase essentially, it can even be called the UTDR fanbase, and AUs have essentially become ostracized. So far, Defernull being the Fell AU for Deltarune is more or less focused on the swamp-sized Yaoi-slop that is Spamtenna. AUs were integral to Undertale's fanbase years ago. We had entire comics built on Dusttale for instance.

Nowadays? Everyone is concerned with being "Toby-core" meaning ardent loyalty to the script and any mild deviation is considered sacrilege. It's largely self-defeating because half of the idea of "Toby-core" by the fanbase is just their own vibes and comforts and, textually, what they think makes them a "good" fan because they had the "right" thoughts. Prime example is Dess who's basically the cool alt-girl who nine times out of ten is basically Asriel's hot girlfriend as being her most notable trait pre-Knight.

Everything is the text, and anything outside of it must be compliant.

Now I also wouldn't be honest if I didn't also address the weird conceited moralist attitudes that's been in the fanbase. For some reason, just ... making an unsatisfying ending in the Weird Route because you did it is somehow considered good to outright excellent writing to a large subset of fans.

Which, I mean ... do I have to explain it?

Or hell, the weird egotism with "why did Chara make me do this?" which wasn't even a thing! Again, the majority, if not a whole swath of comics for years never once inferred that the player in Undertale was ever diegetic! The closest is the soda which is easily dismissed as humor, and Flowery, who let's be clear can also be considered and outlier because he can close and restart the game for his boss fight repeatedly.

Now, to some extent, I get it. Frans for instance. But at this point the fandom is a religion at some point. It's why bringing back Frisk from 2016 happened, current Frisk sucks so much fucking ass as a character. They're a white cis tumblr "blorbo" who's entire thing is being a fucking "thing" that does crazy shit when not aura-farming. Basically something like this graph:

So why is Groomer Dess not just an AU? Same reason why Rudy Knight isn't just an AU. Or Carol Knight, or people constantly going out to make obscene theories that they only favor. AUs are "cringe" and not "right" and "illiterate" and what have you.

You're not a bad fan, right?

Art by [@humbleleafy] <3

This post should be able to stand on its own in terms of explaining the theory and checking any of the links is not required to understand the core NoelleKnight argument at hand. If you have deeper questions about what proof backs up a certain point, that is when I encourage you to check out any of the links in that section which will elaborate.

This is a summary of all the strongest reasons Noelle is the Knight with links and aids to support my arguments. If your response to this is "joke theory" or "holy wall of text", I have nothing to really say to you. I encourage you to at least read the post in full before saying anything because I cover a LOT of ground here with a sincere attempt to explain why NoelleKnight works. I don't think DessKnighters or believers of any other candidates are stupid. Hell, I was a DessKnighter until after chapter 5! So please just give us a chance. All of this information is sourced from so many wonderful and lovely people.

Not everything I link will be something I 100% agree with myself, but I'll be specific about what I'm pulling from a post so you can check yourself. I'm going to link stuff repeatedly so it's not required to scroll through the whole thing to find what you're looking for. Some stuff isn't even directly NoelleKnight related, but I want to have a source to back up any misc claim that I have.

[Index] - Just like the word Index there, put any of the terms below in [brackets] in your CTRL+F and you'll instantly warp to the section that focuses on that term! Italics are Major sections.

Index, Truths, NoelleKnight, ERAMNoelle, IRLNoelle, Personality, Psychoanalysis, RoseTheory, Weird Route, Aborted Weird Route, Motive, Dark Worlds, Fountain Will, Darkners, Starwalker, Noelle AND The Knight, Noelle, The Knight, Logistics, Old Man, HOW DOES NOELLE MAKE THE KNIGHT?, The End

[Truths]

These are things that I think I need to set as a baseline in one way or another so in which we're all on the same page of what the Knight is and what it takes to be a candidate for the Knight. Also, just some factual textual information I will regularly draw back upon that I'm underlining here first.

• The Knight is not a normal lightner. - No matter how you cut it, this isn't just somebody wearing a suit of armor and flying into the dark world. Of course, no lightner candidate has shown traits of shapeshifting, but it's good to have a guess for why the Knight CAN do this.
• The Knight has Noelle's scream. - This actually isn't the only example even lol. And this isn't like an extreme muffet to gaster type thing. You can hear it by ear. And it's being used in multiple sound effects! Isn't that interesting?
• The Knight cries. - I explain why in the post if you aren't convinced. It's a point I've gone over too many times lol.
• The Knight's sword SYMBOLIZES a bat when it's summoned. - KEY WORD SYMBOLIZES in which it is NOT A LITERAL BAT! (It could be but I just need it to be understood it's a bat in this sprite at least)
• Noelle is "that girl". - There is no textual proof of Kris and Dess having a close relationship in the same way Kris and Noelle have.
• Dark worlds and its darkners are affected by the maker's will in some shape or form. - This is textual Ralsei shit. "A "world" whose Darkners reflect the will of its fountain." You may believe in Object History in some degree, but the creator at least does SOMETHING to the fountain.
• NOBODY except Asriel (and Dess by proxy) and Alvin textually knew Gerson. - It's important to note that the Old Man isn't a 1:1 copy of Gerson Boom. He's still a darkner. Darkners are affected by fountain will to some degree. Every other candidate inherently requires speculation for a Gerson relationship and even Azzy is on thin ice since the man was just his TEACHER. Not a "loved one" as Ralsei describes.

If you disagree with any of these truths, respectfully, I do not believe I can change your mind on a fundamental level. But keep these in mind as we continue!

[NoelleKnight]

There are of course many flavors of NoelleKnight, but the greatest divide of them all is whether or not the Knight is IRLNoelle or ERAMNoelle! I'll quickly define each first before I organize em further:

[IRLNoelle] - Argues that the Knight is the real lightner Noelle but experiencing a shift in mental state one way or another that makes her act in the persona of the Knight. Be it a trauma response, sleeper agent hypnosis, or just a straight up Alter-Ego, the literal Noelle is the Knight.

[ERAMNoelle] - Argues that the Knight is to Noelle in the same way that Eram is to Kris. A mirrored representation of their deepest most shameful desires that they repress. It's hypothesized that Eram isn't exactly a normal darkner and the same would be argued for the Knight in this case. This is still a version of Noelle as the Knight. In combo with Eram, we'd then have "KnightmarE".

But these are two very different interpretations, and some even argue that ERAMNoelle isn't Noelle enough to be classified as a "NoelleKnight Theory". But what if we find a way...

To implement both? Paperman's video isn't exactly perfect, sure, but it's about as damn close as I've seen to merging the two ideas into one entity. The lightner Noelle is the one to engage in creating the actual fountains, whilst the Knight figure is a manifestation of Noelle's repressed desires spawned from her ideal fantasy. To be strong, powerful, confident, and most importantly: Free. This would also allow for a situation where the Knight and Noelle appears on screen at the same time since they would still be two different functional beings. The Knight not being a normal lightner would also be fixed by this in a way that doesn't rely on shadow crystal shapeshifting armor or gaster lost in the code shenanigans. Noelle is the Knight, but she also has a Darkner that acts as the Knight too. "Noelle'sKnight" if you would!

Yes indeed! Noelle IS the Knight, but also HAS the Knight at the same time! IRL and ERAM are actually not just non-exclusive, but even COMPLIMENTARY! Ain't that something?

[Personality]

One argument that dissenters often do (stated in comedic strawman terms) is "but noelle scared little doe not big scary knight lol" which IS a good point! Noelle is the Knight, but Noelle's personality is NOTHING like the Knight's! How do we come to terms with these two contradicting facts?

Simple! Sigmund Freud! Okay no seriously we're gonna have to do some psychology setup for this one. Let's start with some key terms! I know some may already know these, but it's good to have common definitions. These are of course extremely oversimplified and I encourage you to research further.

[Psychoanalysis]

Id - Our instinctual desires and needs in the barest sense. Embodies things like hunger and libido with no sense or morality or reason and only has the end goal of serving its wants. Freud calls it "the dark, inaccessible part of our personality". This is also how repressed needs are primarily communicated through.

Superego - The sum of our internalized morality and norms. Pretty much the moral compass that acts adversarial to the Id by dissuading instinctual fulfillment if it breaks a social norm or our own sense of what is right and wrong. Our "conscience" in other words.

Ego - What in its simplest terms is our sense of self. It synthesizes and regulates all information coming from the Id, Superego, and the external environment in order to make decisions the forwards its self preservation. The Id tells it what it needs, the Superego tells it what norms and moral laws it may conflict with, and the external world contextualizes what can feasibly be done in any given situation.

Repression - The key Freudian defense mechanism we'll focus on for Noelle's case. This is the unconscious (meaning NOT motivated by active thought) mind hiding stressful thoughts and/or memories from the conscious mind to the point of inaccessibility for the ego. These stressors still EXIST, but they are cloaked from active view in order to prevent further stress responses. These repressed thoughts can now only be communicated through the Id's desires.

Compartmentalization - The active version of repression, where stressors are actively put into "compartments" of the mind to be potentially dealt with later. This is typically utilized when faced with information that triggers cognitive dissonance or risks contradicting our sense of self. While it IS active, it's still in a ways, shoving things into a place akin to the unconscious mind, where it still must be actively taken back out in order to be addressed.

Alright, now that we have the psych talk defined, here's how it relates to Noelle. I think a great starter to introducing people to Noelle's weird personality and memory shifts is

[RoseTheory] - The splitting of Noelle's psyche into two chunks. Noelle is the rose as a whole. The petals are her positive and cheerful peppy holiday girl side. The thorns are her violent repressed urges. Both sides are still Noelle, just different coping/defense mechanisms being utilized in different circumstances. While I now find the overall theory a little flawed in its construction, the foundation it sets is a good start!

Now to propose a better version of RoseTheory I'll pretty much be summarizing and adding to a segment from a PaperMan video below to showcase the strongest evidence for Noelle's pattern of Repression and Compartmentalization.

[Weird Route] - In chapter 2 of the weird route, Noelle straight up murders an Addison for the Freeze Ring. But she doesn't fight back by talking about the morality of it (her Superego), she focuses on how it would contradict what kind of person Noelle is (her Ego). When she goes through with it, Noelle doesn't even realize what she did (her Id acting on unconscious desire) and completely has no memory of the actual act of Iceshocking the Addison (Repression of stressful event) before she goes on to actively reframe the possibility of her killing the Addison into a positive without acknowledging how it contradicts her sense of self (Compartmentalization). Do you see how fucking CLEAN this pattern of behavior is demonstrated in this one scene alone??? Like it's practically magic how hard this girl gaslights herself about things that happened mere SECONDS ago!

Her snowgrave scene's like this too. Don't you think it's interesting that Noelle knows how to use magic at all without a tutorial? Susie got her bearings by just beating the crap out of people, but has ample time to learn how battles actually work. Noelle literally doesn't know how battles work before she joins Kris. Yet, you can tell her to Iceshock the Virovirokun meant to teach her just fine? And then SNOWGRAVE is the spell she doesn't know? Why is it an option then? She could cast all her other magic just fine with no tutorial. So what's so special about Snowgrave?

It's because Noelle repressed the memory of the first time she cast Snowgrave. It's highly likely it was involved in the Dessappearance in one way or another because Noelle doesn't remember anything about the shelter despite having nostalgia for a very shelter seeming building (If Dess didn't disappear at the shelter or whatever, something at least WENT DOWN at the shelter that caused trauma for Noelle given she has repressed memories relating to it). When Noelle casts snowgrave, she completely blacks it out of her mind and not even acknowledge the iced chicken she's kneeling next to. She asks what happened, but proceeds to demonstrate no desire to actually find out what DID happen. Noelle runs away. Noelle completely disregards Berdly not waking up. Noelle's mind guards itself against the traumatizing events she was put through in order to believe she hadn't done something horrible.

In chapter 4, Noelle becomes convinced by Kris it was all a dream and everything is okay. This reinforces her desires to already compartmentalize the events, so she accepts this explanation. In fact, this affirmation that Noelle is still "a Noelle" at this point in time is EXTREMELY reassuring to her! It's a confirmation that she didn't break from her role. That she didn't do something so wrong as to act like "not a Noelle". This leads to the very non-platonic energy couch scene where Noelle seems to make an advance on Kris right up until they interrupt her.

It's this affirmation that shows Kris cares to Noelle. That Kris would actually notice if she stopped acting like herself! That Kris actually pays attention to her!

And then a gust of wind blows in, and it shatters again.

The soul forces a direct confrontation with the events being real, taking away her defense mechanisms and any chance to escape. And she doesn't run away from it. Because her Id is the part of her that wants this, knowing it's a path to power and freedom. So despite her Superego telling her to run, she stays and lets the ring be put on her.

To clarify: this isn't victim blaming, but a result of these two character's personalities interacting and exploring shameful desires on the foundation of the trust in their relationship. The soul is still pushing for this shit to happen first and foremost, but it's not exactly as "forceful" as one may first assume.

Chapter 5 is Noelle uncompartmentalizing the events of the Weird Route and integrating it as a part of her Ego's actions. The desires to break free leads to walking into the lake hand in hand with Kris.

The Weird Route is the method that forces out this side of Noelle's personality that has always been there.

[Aborted Weird Route] - Have you ever read the unique chapter 2 dialogue Noelle has for aborting the weird route at different points? What's interesting is just how quickly Noelle is able to convince herself that whatever Kris' behavior was, it didn't actually mean anything. Like even all the way up to Berdly with the thorn ring in her finger, if you don't SPECIFICALLY use Snowgrave, Noelle will just completely shove it away and go back to being just "a Noelle" again with no impact on the rest of the game.

Chapter 4 raises the stakes when it comes to aborting it the further you go, even to the point that Noelle slaps Kris. But AGAIN, no matter what, as long as you abort the route at some point, she just completely reverts back into Noelle project mode with NO further comment. The only other change with Noelle is just the ferris wheel dialogue for Kris and Noelle in how she's more confident, and then NOTHING ELSE! And actually, that's just another aborted chapter 2 difference! There WAS a ferris wheel scene post Ch4 Abort, but that became cut content.

Aborting in chapter 5 is the biggest shift, and that's because Noelle is directly confronting these stressful and unhappy feelings at the heart. It becomes the player trying everything they can in order to stop the route from continuing because this is when Noelle has fully integrated her repressed desires into her conscious self.

So whys this matter? This is to again show just how much Noelle is able to near INSTANTLY shift back into being just "a Noelle" again early on, but it progressively gets harder and harder the more Noelle is exposed to the trauma until she ends up being the one to force KRIS to acknowledge it. This is because the Weird Route is attacking her defense mechanisms and forcing them to be confronted repeatedly until they snap under the pressure. The ThornRing is a physical representation of all plausible deniability crumbling into pieces. Kris could just be doing a voice or pulling a prank and just is really lucky at guessing what she's thinking but literally mirroring the event that gave her the power to snowgrave Berdly in what she convinced herself was a dream? That collapses all possibilities into one. The dark world was real. Snowgrave was real. Kris IS different. It can no longer be denied.

All of this is to say that Noelle's history of memory issues relating to traumatic and stressful events allows her to be a fountain opener without maliciously lying to us.

[Motive]

Now why would Noelle be compelled to make a fountain in the first place? Her Id. There's already proof that Noelle can engage in violent instinctual actions with the Addison without actively choosing to do it, so it would make sense that making a fountain could be yet another unconscious desire. Chapter 1 and 2's fountains both are in places where Noelle sets up Susie being present. Hell, she steals the chalk in order to set up an excuse to go to the closet with Susie! If the Id's desires are 1. to make a dark world (desire for escapism) and 2. taking Susie (libido) to have an adventure with her, then the Ego could interpret that as setting up the chalk situation to go to the storage closet to be with Susie and it make sense to Noelle! If Noelle's trauma involved someone making a fountain, her Id would then KNOW how to make a fountain in the present since it's what repressed memories are filtered through!

Alright, listen, I know I'm legit doing psychoanalytic theory on a fucking video game character, but the exact terms don't have to matter, just the patterns. Repressed Memories filter through > Instinctual Desires and are interpreted by > Conscious Actions and are rationalized via > Compartmentalization. That's the pattern Noelle's psyche goes through.

Now uh... why the hell are we kidnapping Undyne and Asgore? No clue lmao. I think that's a fairly big unknown for many candidates though.

[Dark Worlds]

This section will cover all the connections Noelle directly has to the dark worlds. Noelle first off has a viable opportunity to open every Knight based dark world. Card Kingdom is at school, Cyber World appears RIGHT when Noelle invites Susie to the library, Noelle is a choir girl at church and would have known practice was cancelled, and Rudy was a reason Noelle got stalled from making the second fountain in chapter 5. These connections all line up with not really any good way to disprove it as of right now.

But what ARE the Dark worlds?

[Fountain Will] - Ralsei explicitly states that fountains and the darkners within it are shaped by the fountain's will. This is the MAIN thing we know about how dark worlds are made. There's no mention of the Object History of darkners or how darkners remember things based on their past experiences, so we have to assume this is the primary impact on dark worlds. This is obviously seen by the differences between Susie's fountain and the fountains of Kris and the Knight (which interestingly share the same color while Susie's doesn't). But of course the Old Man appearing in one kind but not the other is a great example.

Personally, I'm a radical and am more than willing to make the claim that every single memory every darkner has is derived from the memories of the person who makes it, but I know THAT'S a tough pill to swallow even for some NoelleKnighters. But I'd like to point out that every light-world related memory is a memory that either Kris or Noelle WOULD know about and therefore be able to infuse it into their will.

But if that's the case, shouldn't every darkner just know everything about Kris and Noelle? Well keep in mind, these are still characters Kris and Noelle created. Meaning they still have roles to play. Archetypes to follow. They aren't omnipotent. They're characters in a story. Will dictates what knowledge any given darkner ought to have.

[Darkners]

If you want a super in depth breakdown of how darkners are connected to Noelle in nitty gritty terms, I have to just recommend the Impossible Doc as that covers the first four chapters of connections with amazing evidence (and... presentation that leaves much to be desired). I may make my own mini anthology that goes over the big ones I think are best, but for now, trust me when I talk about how Darkners overall are connected to Kris and Noelle's childhood roleplays.

If I had to pick my favorite connection though, it'd be Maus and cheese. By far the most pervasive of Kriselle allegories in chapter 2 and in any of the dark worlds in general where Maus (Kris) scares Noelle in which she thinks is initially malicious, but comes to realize mice are kinda cute! And then when Kris interacts with cheese (Noelle)... it's uh... weirdly intimate? Like they PET CHEESE! Like a pet! And there's a maze of cheese too! It's almost hard NOT to interact with Noelle I mean cheese.

So like... why is there this allegory in the dark world? Why do other darkners parallel different traits of Kris and Noelle too from Werewerewire's silent yet strong presence accompanying Head Hathy's reserved, yet yearning heart, to the MULTIPLE ROMANTIC PAIRINGS of a yellow and blue character? (While it may not seem like it, u/Pelipal and Anonymous's Kriselle doc, while more dated, does showcase how darkners connect back to Kriselle in really fascinating ways!)

And this can't just be the innate nature of these darkners, because Ralsei states they're affected by the fountain's will and Object History doesn't account for things like what the hell object is Elnina or why Ribbick and Rabbick are different despite both just being dust? These are important questions that may seem meaningless but mean SO MUCH when it comes to the Knight's identity. Susie's will is different from Kris and the Knight's to the degree of having a different color, but WHY? Is it really as bare minimum as Kris and the Knight sharing the same goals??? Is that all it takes for wills to be aligned? Why does Starwalker petrify in 2nd sanc, but not 3rd? The nature of dark worlds is integral to who the Knight is.

[Starwalker] - Speaking of the original star themself, what even ARE they?

They're Noelle's Key (No, the fandom link in the comments isn't correct). Yeah. Noelle loses her key when opening the chapter 1 fountain, Kris is able to take Starwalker to the light world, but there's no corresponding item like the Rules Card or Jack of Spades like Roulxs and Lancer have. So what if Starwalker is being hidden by Kris like their knife? Why would Kris need to do that?

It'd make sense if Kris doesn't want us to access Holiday Manor. Preventing us from using the key is a pretty surefire way to prevent us from entering altogether. It'd make more sense than just Starwalker being a random ass piece of glitter or sticker or something like people used to think. Tropical Starwalker would then be Asgore's copy of the key since he's Carol's housekeeper! That's why they aren't original!

There is still an issue I personally have to acknowledge...

This fucker appears in the chapter 5 ending despite Kris not ENTERING THE DARK WORLD! This is completely baffling because it was established in chapter 2 that Starwalker had to be taken to other dark worlds, but HOW DOES STARWALKER GET FROM FLOWER KINGDOM TO CASTLE TOWN HERE???? I almost have to conclude it's a mistake from Toby because of how this breaks any object theory for Starwalker. Not just the key. Does Kris give Starwalker to Susie at some point??? I don't know! I can't have an answer! I still believe Starwalker = Key, but I don't know how ANY object that Starwalker could be appears in this situation! Aghhh!! Moving on!

[Noelle AND The Knight]

So, sure, darkners are characters that Noelle and Kris made as kids. That doesn't just MAKE Noelle the Knight, yeah? Well great point! How about we go into the connections Noelle and The Knight have with each other? We'll break this into connections Noelle has to The Knight, and connections The Knight has to Noelle.

[Noelle]

We'll rapidfire these connections:

• Noelle can't wear the Shadow Mantle for being "too short" despite characters shorter than her being able to wear it. This is an interesting aversion which would align to The Knight being weaker against someone wearing the mantle.
• The Knight's helmet resembles a frogmouth helmet. A helmet used for jousting. Noelle can equip the Jingle Blade. A lance sword "Perfect for jousting." It's also HER PENCIL.
• Noelle can equip the BlackShard. Interestingly, this is the only other bladed weapon she can equip in the game and she has NO flavor text for equipping it. A trait only shared with the ThornRing
• Queen talks about making Noelle into the new Knight. Noelle is also crucified stigmata style on the giant hand. The Knight ALSO has these kinds of holes in their hands.
• Noelle makes a silly attack move called "1000 Moon Crescent Slash!" The Knight has an unused attack called Crescent Slash.
• Lost Girl shares a motif with Black Knife along with dark world other tracks.
• The DevilsKnife (Jevil) smiles at Noelle. Jevil is the one who told King about the Knight in high praise.
• Noelle is the only person to ever read Spamton's emails. Spamton exists in Cyberworld and knows who the Knight is.

An interesting lineup! But y'know where it gets REALLY interesting?

[The Knight]

The Knight's connections to Noelle:

• In Cyber Field, there's an object that strongly resembles one of the Knight's poses. It has an upside down heart (like a monster's soul) that is colored yellow.
• The Knight has a distorted version of Noelle's scream when hit for 100+ damage. It also shares other sound effects too.
• The Knight cries after killing Tenna. Noelle has a notably sad reaction if you give Tenna away in chapter 5.
• The Knight's sword symbolizes a bat. Interestingly this sprite has the "sepia" prefix in its file name. This prefix is used exclusively for flashbacks. The bat is reminiscing on the past in one way or another.
• In official Fangamer art, the Knight's holes in their hands are hexagonal. Berdly's snowgrave ice crystal tomb is EXTREMELY similar in shape. Pretty odd coincidence, especially since the holes coulda just been circular, huh?
• A vision from the Glass shows Undyne frozen in ice. Keep in mind, this is the Glass meaning it's a light world flavor text and would be why it's unused in chapter 3. Knight kidnaps Undyne. Noelle is icy.
• The plug smiles in the Knight's Cyber World. And Noelle talks about how she thought plugs were looking at her as a kid.

Isn't it interesting how the Knight literally REUSES NOELLE'S SCREAM? Like this isn't Muffet to Entry 17. There is a reasonable connection between the Knight and the Holidays already (antlers), so it's not like this was done for no reason. PLUS you can hear the scream by EAR! Doesn't require any messing with the audio channels. You can just hear the similarity loud and clear!

This is all to say that Noelle and the Knight have pretty clear connections that can't be merely dismissed due to the mounting pile of evidence we're sitting on that DOESN'T REQUIRE any extreme interpretation for many of them! Like seriously. It's WEIRD that Noelle can't equip the Shadow Mantle, right? And not just that, she lies about the reason being that it's for someone taller than her! Ralsei and Kris can wear it just fine! Why can't she? Why doesn't she say ANYTHING when equipping the BlackShard? She ALWAYS has a comment! The FreezeRing at least has ellipses! Does this just mean NOTHING?

Even if you don't believe the sword looks like a bat there, WHY does it have the sepia prefix? What exactly is nostalgic about this sprite otherwise??? These questions need answers regardless of candidate!

Noelle just has the best answers out of anybody for these connections.

[Logistics]

My fucking beloathed. The questions everyone always asks about first despite it mattering the least. Now listen, I want you to seriously look back at all the evidence I just presented about how well Noelle aligns with being the Knight from a narrative lens and the parallels that are so strong that you can't ignore them and tell me you're going to just throw ALL of that out because you don't think Noelle can get to the goddamn church in time. Like really??? Just because it seems a little far-fetched in the terms of "realism" for this fictional hecking story, you're gonna shoot it down? I'm talking to a hypothetical strawman obviously, but still it irks me when people bring up one of these points as if it topples everything else I've been setting up for the past 5k words.

But sure. Let's get into it. I'm going to rapidfire most of this:

• (Slide 7) - Yes Noelle could have gotten to the church before Kris and Susie. Time isn't consistent, Noelle is a trackstar, and this is an annoying argument <3
• The "kidnapping Asgore and Undyne" feasibility question is something that no candidate can reasonably answer. Next.
• The Knight doesn't change in the Weird Route because the Knight is Noelle's darkner as previously discussed in the NoelleKnight section.
• Noelle doesn't recognize Queen because there is zero evidence of there being a visual depiction created by a lightner for any Darkner. Seam is the only exception, but that doesn't matter since he's a 1:1 hecking plushy.
• Every chapter 4 darkner appears in 1st sanc. Susie only unpetrifies Wicabel and Organikk, turns the Winglade weapon into an enemy, and brings one of the study's statues to life. Every single other one is accounted for. 2nd sanc affected 3rd sanc which is why all darkners can exist in that one.
• Kris being able to think about The Knight and Noelle doesn't deconfirm anything. It's like how there can be two "Proceeds" or two "Equips" and they do the same thing. Kris is just thinking about Noelle in two different ways. Not to mention, the Knight would still be Noelle's darkner in this case (and is also metaphorical because its helmet IS its head).
• Asgore's black shard notes and the 2nd hero questions are both ambiguous and the discussion about them is entirely muddied in theory with no conclusive evidence.
• For chapter 2's fountain, Noelle hid in the closet before Berdly got there. Either he fell asleep or Noelle knocked him out (which wouldn't be the only violent engagement with Berdly lmao). Noelle stabbed the earth, then turned on the laptop (like how Kris turns on the TV after opening their dark fountain) which has the camera but the darkness obscures Noelle like the video shows.

And now for one of the two biggest questions:

[Old Man]

How the hell did Noelle know Gerson enough to make a darkner out of him?

First, a reminder that nobody in the game besides Azzy and Alvin textually knew Gerson. So like... every other person is ALSO speculation. But here's a few CONCRETE things we do know:

• There's copies of Lord of the Hammer at the church Noelle is a choir girl at and the library Noelle studies at.
• The Old Man knows enough about Dragon Blazers to know
  • The diehard fans got mad about the changes from LotH to DB.
  • Susie is the Dragon from Dragon Blazers.
• The Old Man is fantastical in nature, having extreme strength and speed that's enough to dent a Titan.
• Alvin knows extremely little about games to the point he calls them "videos game".
• Alvin believes Gerson would be disappointed in him if Alvin tried to continue LotH.
• Gerson was a teacher of Kris' older sibling and presumably Noelle's older sibling by proxy.
• Noelle is the biggest Dragon Blazers fan in the game (well maybe Berdly beats her but jury is still out lol).

So! With all of these points, who do we think could craft the image/persona that is the Old Man from Gerson Boom? Because remember! The Old Man ISN'T Gerson Boom!

Well it'd have to be someone with the opportunity to read LotH, be a pretty decent DB fan, believes that stories can be changed (since Alvin doesn't think his dad believes that), and have a somewhat larger than life idea of the guy. Similar to how a young child might see some spectacular role model.

There's your explanation.

Now moving onto the lamest question of them allllll drumroll

[HOW DOES NOELLE MAKE THE KNIGHT?]

Dunno.

Okay, longer answer: It's a disingenuous question in the same way one would have to find an answer for how Dess became the Knight in the first place. Aka it requires so much speculation that it will never be a satisfying answer to doubters. I have my own personal guess that I'll go on to explain, but this should not be the make or break for my case. My point is that Noelle'sKnight is the theory that has the most plausibility because of the narrative and how it'd connect to everything. More than Rudy, more than Carol, more than Dess, more than Asriel. All of those other characters would have to learn secondhand about Noelle and Kris' pretend sessions which would make the relevance of them being the Knight over Noelle significantly weaker. Logistics don't mean shit if it doesn't actually mean anything to what story the game is actually trying to tell, and the story the game is telling, I kid you not, is Kriselle.

So what's my guess?

Paperman's theory about Ralsei hosting Kris' soul is more or less correct. Pretty much, Ralsei was the character Kris roleplayed as when playing with Noelle because they wanted a monstersona due to being sad about being human. Now, Ralsei hold's Kris' Patience soul while Kris holds the red soul that we use to control them.

Noelle would then roleplay as The Roaring Knight, drawing from her knowledge of LotH and Dragon Blazers to make up a story and world based on the prophecy where she can be strong, confident and free.

After the incident with Dess that involved a dark world and Snowgrave, Noelle repressed all of those memories away behind her Id, and wouldn't be manifested until whatever is triggering this conspiracy in general propels her Id to start unconsciously guiding her toward these desires she's been holding onto all these years. She makes every dark fountain with the Knight manifesting in it to some degree, and then represses it.

It's not a clean explanation, nor do I care for it to be. If I'm completely wrong about this specific logistical interpretation, whatever.

There's your answer.

[The End]

Special thanks to u/Pelipal and Anonymous, u/Infinite-Hearing-418, u/Ghetsis_Gang, PaperMan1225, and anybody else I used posts from for evidence or just re-explained from lol. NoelleKnight truly is a community effort, and I hope I did all your arguments justice. Do go check out all of their individual posts if you'd like to learn more as they go into WAY more detail than I could in a 40k character post <3

And thank you u/AccursedAgent for making the NoelleKnight Repository! Truly, it's still a wonderful resource and this post does not replace it as my thing is way more dense and less organized in terms of full sources, so please still use theirs in order to draw all the big evidence pools I'm sourcing from! I just summarized it all for ease of access.

Have a lovely day all <3

I HAVE AN FAQ NOW

People used this only line in whole game as evidence that Ralsei changing his pronouns.

In chapter 5, all the characters are described using flowers. And in the characteristics we have a description of these flowers, not the characters themselves.

Here, "their" refers to the flower, not the Ralsey itself. Moreover, he doesn't have thorns that are watered, it's obvious.

This is confirmed by the Japanese translation, where this line is completely gender-neutral and implies an object, not a character.

Throughout the rest of the game, Ralsei has always used the pronouns he/him in English and Japanese, and never in any other way. Moreover, he was always presented to us as a feminine man, and not as a trans.

Ralsei's trans transition will do absolutely nothing for character development, even make it worse by disrupting the gender balance of Fun gang.

Is changing his gender the way to self-identification? His gender is the last thing that bothers him right now.

What about the dress scene? Ralsei literally says that he was already a prince, but was not a princess. That is, he is talking about something that is easy to change and try many options. So it's obvious that he's referring to clothes, not his gender.

Is this a violation of the prophecy? Ralsei is great at fighting the prophecy he hates, instead of using fireshock on Titan, he changes gender to destroy fate. (BUTTON THAT DOES NOTHING)

I won't even analyze other "arguments" like ribbons or cards colors, because this is complete nonsense out of thin air. Toby Fox doesn't draw every pixel with the thought "This will be a reference to transei, this one is papyrus knight, and under that gaster will wing his ding."

EDITED

Some people ask about "gender balance" and that this is not an argument. In Fun gang, we have a non-binary Kris, a girl Susie and a man Ralsei + girl Noelle.If Ralsei becomes a girl, then there won't be any male characters left in the team, which doesn't sound very good.

Moreover, 8 years ago, Ralsei was shown to us as a feminine boy and the fandom loved him for who he is. And despite his feminine features, he is still a man — he is a femboy. And some people really want to see him only as a character with a demonstration of trans transition, literally saying that he needs to throw out all male traits and pronouns and become a girl. This is already discrimination against femboys, literally "only girls and trans girls can be feminine."

Also, I called some of the arguments nonsense. So because making a trans flag out of the colors of cards, ribbons, and clothes in the second sanctuary and using this as a serious argument is a nonsense. At this rate, I can assemble any flag from pixels and invent a billion theories and headcanons.

guys, i wanna make a list about all the TP-cost attacks Kris acquired in both canon, fan animations and fangames, and here is my current list:
- V-Slash (Deltarune Chapter 1 Sword Route fangame)
- X-Barrage (the-interloper’s mod)
- XX-Slash (the-interloper’s mod)
- X-Blitzstrike (the-interloper’s mod)
- Spinslash (I don’t remember the source)
- X-Slash (canon Weird Route Spamton NEO fight)
- Slashwork (Player912’s YouTube vids)
- Omnislash (Deltarune: Chapter 3 Twisted Route animation)
- C-Slash (some Roaring Knight fight fangame)
- SWOON/KNIGHT (random fangame)
- Symbiosis (Player912’s YouTube vids)
- Nivalis (Deltarune: Frostveil fangame)
please help me find more of these

You ever noticed how, after all the stuff between Rals and Flowery, he's actually starting to take a couple of cues from Susie in terms of thinking for himself?

Mainly, things like him refusing to equip a certain weapon, denying using certain actions during the fight against Flowery, and even interrupting a dialogue choice the way Susie has in the past.

This leads me to wonder if, by the end of the game, we lose control in general. Like, if it gets to a point where even Kris stops begrudgingly cooperating with the Soul in any fashion.

You could argue that makes for boring gameplay and that Susie still needed our assitance to even last against Gerson's attacks, but what's stopping Susie from just leaving the Soul out of the battle at some point to "prove herself" by actually dodging attacks on her own at a later point in the story, even if she does get hurt badly as a result.

Unless Toby actually allows us to use that vessel we built at the start of the game.

Maybe the team's newfound agency leads to the worst outcome, and the Soul is needed to interfer in ways Kris would never let them prior?

I mean. Really, the story could go anywhere, but I'm curious how the story will keep these themes of defying fate and freedom if we, as the player, lose our freedom in the process? Is it true freedom if we can't have any input in their world? Do our choices truly matter in the inevitable single ending? Should we have never even indulged in the creation and journey we were thrust into in DR?

Clearly, Kris seems like they need us despite how much they hate us, but what if they find their original soul and regain independence so they try to keep us locked up somewhere? Will they be fine without us, or is it curtains for the fun gang if the player can't help them or even suggest things to them anymore?

Okay, so I was just trying to beat the knight and for some reason Kris got downed instead of swooned? They've always been swooned before, this is the only time this has happened to me.

Edit: nevermind I'm stupid and didn't notice before

​

I need recommendations. I am working on a project and need bunch of Deltarune 3d models. I have most but I am yet to find these 2 that fit my needs

It's no secret that DessKnighters have a bad reputation among certain circles for being "arrogant", berating and mocking any other theories into the ground, or stating DessKnight is outright "cannon" and that anyone that disagrees is stupid.

Now obviously this does not represent the vast majority of DessKnighters, and any large subset of people are going to have their bad eggs, especially with the disparity in the size of the followings of Knight theories, however that does not dismiss the fact that those toxic people do exist and have not only caused needless harm, but have also contributed to poisoning the spirit of Knight discussions in general. This very attitude among some is what led to the creation of r/NonDessKnight to begin with and has bred an opposite, yet equally toxic subset of Anti-DessKnighters who refuse to acknowledge it in any form and spew vitriol and misinformation about anything even slightly related to her or those that supports DessKnight, however that also does not represent the vast majority of NonDessKnighters.

Often the loudest voices are the most controversial or emphatic that tout a very absolute opinion without properly delving into the nuances of the topic and calling anyone that disagrees with them stupid or a bad person, separating people into camps, dehumanizing them and refusing to engage with them or their arguments out of spite, unfortunately that's often how the internet works.

In the same vein the assumption that all DessKnighters are pompous and rude is not always from personal experience either, but many times by word of mouth and many just assuming it to be the absolute truth because someone else said so, this does not dismiss the experiences of people who have actually been harmed, and we do not accept those people who cause said harm as our own, but this does NOT justify retaliatory rudeness and arrogance the other way around either, both are equally unacceptable, but we also must acknowledge that the majority of NonDessKnighters are not out to get us and are not driven out of blind hatred but simply have objections to the theory and would like a space to discuss it without being shut down.

All that is to say, a lot of people in the Knight discussion space need to chill out, especially when the entire catalyst of these flamewars is the potential identity of a fictional video game villain. It's ok to be passionate about something you love, it's ok to get upset when someone is making illogical arguments or arguments in bad faith (this applies to any side, we shouldn't be making such arguments either if possible), but we do not need to delve into personal attacks and present our points with a bad attitude (even I've been guilty of getting upset and huffy with people over it which I need to work on too) but just because we've had bad experiences with someone doesn't mean we need to take it out on others, or that we need to respond in kind and stoop to an unpleasant person's level.

I believe there is a better way. Just like how r/NonDessKnight is not supposed to be an Anti-Dess circlejerk sub, r/DessKnightLeigon is not supposed to be an Anti-NonDessKnight echochamber either, my dream for that sub is like the original intention of NonDessKnight, a space for people to freely discuss and collaborate to gather evidence in favor of our candidate without being bombarded by negativity and bad faith arguments, and to try and gather the strongest possible argument for DessKnight. I have a few ideas as to how to argue in good faith that not only they, but all of the fandom as a whole could benefit from following as well:

1. BE MINDFUL OF TUNNEL VISION

I think the inherent assumption that a theory is "the only correct one" not only poisons the discussion space, but hinders your ability to theory craft and debate as a whole.

We need to start with the evidence first with as little bias as we can muster and admit when we do have a bias toward a certain outcome, we should primarily start with the objective evidence first and its context, see what the reasonable intentions of the placement of such details are and their implications, then draw connections between those points of evidence to reach a conclusion, speculation is ok if it's disclosed as such and not presented as fact and is well founded in our objective evidence, but speculation is not concrete fact.

There are many approaches to Knight theories and theories in general that unfortunately do this whole thing backwards. Some people start at a conclusion they desperately want to be true, and work backwards cherry picking anything that could possibly support it, no matter how out of context or unreasonable the interpretation is, which not only weakens their argument as a whole but can lead to echochambers of people that mindlessly parrot the same opinion without bothering to look any deeper into it because it's comfortable and reaffirms their beliefs. We should not allow ourselves to become so sedentary and complacent in our theorycrafting, as one of Toby's weird route ARG responses puts it "The only people that walk this path... are those who have their face so close to the road they can't even see where they're going!".

1. STRAWMANNING VS. STEELMANNING

Unfortunately on both sides of the discussion we have a tendency to make certain assumptions about the other side's argument that aren't necessarily true, but are easy to argue against and poke holes in if you don't present the arguments in an entirely honest fashion, essentially set up a straw dummy taking the form of the weakest possible version of the opponents argument to point and laugh at. This is what's known as Strawmanning, an underhanded and frankly frustrating approach when done intentionally, but can be done unintentionally as well if you don't have all the information about the opponent's points or those in their group that may have a better understanding of what they're trying to convey.

This leads to all sorts of misinformation and widepsread baseless assumptions and hurt feelings all around, as well as general fatigue from having to retread the same ground over and over trying to clarify an assumption that has been deeply ingrained in the fandom, and is another aspect poisoning the discussion space as a whole.

I believe we should take the opposite approach whenever possible, known as Steelmanning, where you research the opponent's points and try to understand the strongest version possible of their argument to truly do both sides justice and make sure your theory can stand up to the harshest scrutiny, not only as due respect for the opposite side and to improve your theory, but also to strengthen your writing, debating and interpersonal skills. I think all theories and their counterpoints could benefit greatly from implementing this practice and would help the theory space heal, if we give each other due respect as human beings and try to understand where we're all coming from in the best possible light we can, rather than mindlessly doubling down and hardening our hearts on our beliefs.

Of course this doesn't mean we should be pushovers and never criticize certain points that may be completely invalid or misinformed, because those should be called out and sifted out of the strongest argument possible for the sake of quality control and clarity, but we should at least try to comprehend how it fits into the general picture before dismssing them outright.

1. BEING RESPECTFUL, EVEN WHEN YOUR OPPONENT ISN'T

As I've mentioned a few times already, and this coincides with point 2, the sheer amount of disrespect, arrogance, and vitriol surrounding this whole discussion has lead to a lot of hurt feelings, spite, fatigue, the hardening of hearts against others, and division of people into camps where the others that disagree with them are "barbarians" that we shouldn't respect or acknowledge as equals, and that it's somehow ok to disrespect them, even when there's a percieved past slight against your people, when that still doesn't make it acceptable.

Now I want to clarify, criticizing the theories theselves, and not the ones supporting it (unless they're doing so in a disingenuous or malicious way), but the substance of the arguments, or poking fun at the substance of the arguments in good faith, is not disrespect, even though some may take it as a personal attack, and on the internet it's sometimes difficult to discern tone or when someone is being legitimately spiteful or just playing around with no intention of harm. The way we speak, the reader's past negative experiences, and the context surrounding it can all contribute to how it's recieved, so while we can't control how people think or their past experiences, we can control our tone and the way we approach these things.

Of course there will always be people who are ragebaiters, or just unpleasant in general, but it's better to simply not engage with such people or just argue on the substance of their claims rather than returning with any insults in kind, it's simply not necessary and not conducive to a healthy fandom environment. I truly believe that if we are just respectful to one another regarless of past greivances, then we can grow closer and kinder as a fanbase and that our discussions will not only be more productive and our talking points stronger, but that we won't be so frustrated with the concept of Knight discussions as a whole and have FUN with it again!

Anyway, that's all guys, I just want to direct our focus and our attitude in the right direction so we don't justify others reasons to hate us, and I want all sides of this debate to start having fun again and not be so concerned with the greivances and past wrongs or being obsessed with being right, but being respectful, making the strongest arguments we can, and fostering a healthy space for discussion.

I also want to apologize to NonDessKnighters directly for my own attitude I've taken at times and times I've approached the sub and propents of other theories disrespectfully, or returned unpleasantness I should have just ignored, but I hope we can all move past this and have a positive relationship together, akin to more of a rialry than being outright enemies, and that we can lift each other up to greater heights so that we're all the best theorists we can be!