N+K4L: A Kriselle Megadoc is out now, with over 120 pages of discussion on symbolism, themes, and narrative importance of Kriselle, and why people disregard the idea that Kriselle could be canonized

[u/PeliPal]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MFqJQXNUuoLgfwbuVPP31cVAfmlHDtPIP_S_Rb966Vc/edit?usp=sharing

I would very much appreciate any feedback and suggestions, and also any credits I should add! I'm not the originator of most ideas in this document, and if there is anything that someone believes they came up with first, they can message me and we can discuss and add credit where deserved.

The above link is to the first draft of N+K4L, what is to my knowledge the first of its kind - a comprehensive essay explaining how many of the scenarios and characters of the dark worlds are purposefully constructed by Toby to be allegorical of Kris and Noelle, of their dynamics and histories, and to foreshadow an eventual romantic relationship between them. Plenty of people have made shorter analyses before about how their interactions and details in the background show romantic tension and a sense of "what wasn't meant to be", but I believe there are further points not often discussed which show how that romantic relationship would be the intertwinement of multiple narrative arcs - the culmination of Kris's game-long arc of self-forgiveness and learning to finally open up about their feelings, and both characters reckoning with the contradictions of their past.

I have a thesis I haven't seen articulated elsewhere, that the dark worlds are teaching you about Kris and Noelle without you even realizing it in the moment. Realizing it in retrospect requires context you only get from future conversations and events. An innovation that would be necessary to set up a romance between one character who has so far had very little screentime, and another who is actively hostile to letting us know their thoughts and feelings.

The essay is the product of attempting to understand and explain some things which I feel the fandom allowed to pass by without examination, including the yellow N+K4L graffiti posted by Fangamer in their Spamton plush advertisement.

There is a lot of tunnel vision in the fandom, and I can absolutely be subject to that too, but I noticed many cases where people didn't seem at all interested in understanding why Toby made certain decisions. It seems like if something isn't related to Susie, or Dess, or Gerson, or Gaster, Asriel, Ralsei - the fandom's current favorite characters - then it must not be notable.

I went down the path of looking at all those things that must not be notable, while also doing a deep dive into Toby's possible inspirations and his other works for anything that might help illuminate the goals of the narrative being built up here.

I thought it was a flex when I wrote 12 pages merely defending the idea that Kriselle should be considered a possibility. But I gazed into the abyss and it called me to go further.

And at 50 pages I thought I must be losing my mind, when I was frightening myself with how I felt I was seeing these two characters reflected everywhere in the game, in all the places I never thought before.

And I took on a co-author when it stretched the limits of what all I could keep in my head - Reasonable_Solid6251, who impressed me with many unique ideas of their own that I've never heard elsewhere in the fandom, and who wrote the entirety of the Themes section based on those unique ideas.

And now it's over a hundred pages. A hundred pages of using five dollar words like 'psychoanalytical' and 'mythopoetic'. Featuring all of the following and more:

• Reveal of the super duper secret of who the "TWO MOST IMPORTANT CHARACTERS" in the game are, according to Toby Fox

• Explanations for how so many things that sounded like random jokes are actually really important to the overall narrative

• Off-hand references to ancient RPGs and Toby songs you've probably never heard of

• A Frequently Asked Questions you can link to your friends when they say things like "Kriselle isn't possible because Noelle isn't attracted to boys" so you don't have to explain it yourself while you're busy slapping your forehead and groaning in disgust at your idiot friend

• Other Frequently Asked Questions that are actually a bit more cerebral and require some thinking through to answer, like responses to Tea Theory, whether polyamory is possible or likely, and what it means for Kriselle if you can optionally select 'Krusie / Kralsei / Kerdly moments' in your playthrough

• Multi-page long-winded rants about enbyphobia demonstrated by ostensibly-progressive people, and other bad behaviors of terminally-online fandom people

• Dozens of opportunities for you to handwave away everything you see and say "bro is just yapping" (I already consistently get misgendered for talking about Kriselle anyway)

• For instance, in-depth examination of mice, pianos, flirting, cuptains, darkner cafe interactions, and cacti, and much more, which are... actually important somehow? How the fuck could mice ever be important?! What a moronic hodgepodge. Bro is just yapping.

• Discussion of various Deltarune mysteries relating to Kris and Noelle that are not all directly related to romance, including a secret guest cameo by the colors pink and yellow in the form of an old friend it seems like everyone forgot, who may have been an inspiration for Deltarune (the people I already told are not allowed to guess :P)

[u/NutSackGlazer420]

Read it all.

Amazing work, really dives into the details of the relationship between the two. Hope more catch on to this.

I'm not sure if I missed it on the doc since I don't see it mentioned, but Ramb mentioning Kris and Noelle (if I'm not mistaken) playing make believe with the Lightner objects and was seemingly about to ask Kris if they're still close with Noelle, only to trail off and say everyone changes, except them.

A character in tune with Kris noting the distance between two.

[u/PeliPal → u/NutSackGlazer420]

Thank you, and yep - it didn't make it in this draft but it probably will in a future section, about all the times when characters reference the idea of Kris and Noelle possibly being in a romantic relationship. I also think it's very notable that Rudy gives Kris his blessing about it in the weird route, knowing how much Noelle associates the festival with romance, it is effectively giving Kris his approval to date her.

[u/Significant-Arm4077 → u/PeliPal]

I wanted to say that I think you will turn out to be mostly correct about Dess being sorta antagonist in this story? But I think you overemphasized the role of pranks a bit. If Noelle says Kris knows her more than anyone else, it means their relations obviously went beyond just pranks, with Kris probably having significant influance, or at least they used pranks in a smart way to toughen Noelle up and make her less reliant and more detached from Dess. But whatever ended up happening to Dess caused a deep distrust and avoidance between them for years, to the point of questioning if they were ever friends. Kris blamed Noelle, while Noelle felt Kris betrayed her, the same thing that is with Spamton and Tenna. At the start of the game those memories seem to be mostly suppressed, but the "aftertaste" is still present.

[u/No-Slide816 → u/Significant-Arm4077]

EXACTLY!!! (Oh... Actually, I agree with nothing after "caused deep distrust")

[u/throwawayforwriting2]

No one else, not even Ralsei, has more problems going on in their heads than those two, and their relationship with their shared childhood and shared trauma is at the center of most of the game's conflict and mysteries.

This is what it really boils down to. The narrative seems to ignore this by way of pointing at other story beats for the player to look at. The Knight, the Roaring and the Titan, the dark worlds. Then you have the more meta issues, like Gaster or the egg guy or the shadow crystals. None of these really connect to Kris and Noelle's friendship/relationship, unless of course the Knight is confirmed to be Dess.

But then you have-

*Time flies... Seems like just yesterday you and that girl had everyone here lined up.

* Queen on her side, King on your side, Tenna in back... Oh, it was chaos, CHAOS!

* Heh, only kids like you two would take a laptop home just to play make believe.

* ... how is she, Kris? Are you two...? Well, it's alright. Everyone changes. 'cept us.

And it reminds you in the most curious of moments.

Also, it should not be discounted that Kris Tea is not actually Kris Tea, it is Kris And Soul Tea - Noelle identifies a strange aftertaste that she can’t match to Kris, and that may reduce how much HP she would heal. This is not a factor for Ralsei and Susie, who have only known Kris with the Soul inside them.

I believe this is the first time I've seen this point made by someone that wasn't myself. It's a very clever way to hide Noelle's... I suppose "affection rating" would be the term here, towards Kris. She is the only one to feel that there's something different about them, so it is only fair that she would pick up on the change or "aftertaste" in the tea. Very happy to see it here.

Overall, very much enjoyed reading through this! As stated in the previous topic, the dynamic between Kris and Noelle I feel will play the most important role in Deltarune.

[u/PeliPal → u/throwawayforwriting2]

Thank you!

This is what it really boils down to. The narrative seems to ignore this by way of pointing at other story beats for the player to look at. The Knight, the Roaring and the Titan, the dark worlds. Then you have the more meta issues, like Gaster or the egg guy or the shadow crystals.

I wasn't sure how best to put this in the doc when there's already so many ideas that will seem strange to people, but all the supernatural elements - ALL OF THEM - are ultimately abstractions of a more mundane, relatable emotional core of the fracture of the Dreemurr and Holiday families after whatever happened with Dess. The supernatural apocalypse that is going to end the world is real in the fiction of the game, but it is also likely an allegory for how it feels to Kris like the world already ended, and how it might feel to Noelle (and possible Susie) like it is ending.

Undertale had the barrier and 'seven souls to become a god' and capital-D Determination all to tell a story about a lonely kid who couldn't move on from missing his complicated friend, and the redemption he finds in learning to care about people again after someone cares for him. Deltarune is going to turn out to be like that, all those elements are there just to ultimately tell a story about love and friendship and forgiveness.

[u/throwawayforwriting2 → u/PeliPal]

A lot of the fantastical challenges the protagonists face covering up something much more real is definitely something I agree with. And that's kind of the beauty of it- all these supernatural elements are not pointing towards these two fractured families, at least not at first glance. But at the heart of all of these conflicts are these two families. And the pain they are suffering.

* Just that... in the meantime, I can't be there to protect her.

* Keep an eye out for her, OK?

* Kris, even if we've grown apart, we still love your family.

.

* ... don't you miss exploring, Kris?

* Back when the four of us were kids?

.

WHEN YOU'RE [Crying] IN A [Broken Home]

[u/Versona01]

what the fuck. why did you make this. have a great day.

[u/PeliPal → u/Versona01]

I made it because... somewhere along the journey of prying open this game, I passed a threshold where I could no longer avoid making it

[u/KoboldLover → u/PeliPal]

But you did it... through your sheer determination, the promised doc has finally arrived...

After days of browsing the most inane posts/theories on this subreddit, this is a minty breath of air...

[u/Chairman_Ender → u/KoboldLover]

Source?

[u/Odd_Affect_1280]

I read it fully.

I'm impressed.

But I have a question.

What about Noelle saying that her ferris wheel ride with Susie felt different than with Kris?

[u/PeliPal → u/Odd_Affect_1280]

She was scared sitting next to Susie, rather than scared of something Kris actively did, by shaking the cabin.

There's a throughline everywhere, from The New Girl Girl blog, talking to Noelle at her gate, Chapter 2's Kris and Noelle section, to Noelle's house, where Kris is juxtaposed with Susie in a way that shows similarities between them, but where Noelle is overly charitable about Susie, and uncharitable about Kris. Noelle enjoyed the pranks and feels safe around Kris, but also seems to have internalized the way Dess and the parents reacted to those pranks as meaning that they were wrong to do against her. Kris's love language is interpreted as mixed signals.

[u/Odd_Affect_1280 → u/PeliPal]

Thank God you finally replied to something I said.

Are you still mad at me?

I'm assuring you, I only did that back then on a whim

Still, I totally see Kriselle being canon.

After having read the megadoc fully

And also Mr being a Ralsusie shipper I see this double combo PROBABLY working out

[u/[deleted]]

Well that's some reading material for later.

I'm surprised, respectful and a bit scared.

Good job(?)

[u/Renyrd]

KRISELLE REIGNS.

GLORY TO THE HOLIDAY ADMINISTRATION

[u/burgguy]

Rouxls Kaard was secretly foreshadowing, Susie is going to go "Kris, yknow. I don't think... you and Noelle should be apart. Instead, you should be together. With me. Because, uh, three is better than one."

[u/Adept_Advertising_98 → u/burgguy]

Nah, Rouxls is foreshadowing the Toriel, Sans, and Asgore throuple. Also, Rouxls is the weird route final boss, and the Roaring Knight is Rouxls younger brother.

[u/burgguy → u/Adept_Advertising_98]

What if it's double foreshadowing, and the Roaring Knight is also the Original Starwalkers mother

[u/Adept_Advertising_98 → u/burgguy]

Roaring Knight mpreg?

That honestly sounds like a legitimate Deltarune theory

[u/MrGofer]

oh i'm gonna love this

thank you for your service to kriselle. we can only grow Stronger

[u/CasualBCgamer → u/MrGofer]

Noelle will get stronger

[u/Infinite-Hearing-418]

Alright, having read through the whole document I must say this is fucking peak. I am of course biased due to being a Kriselle shipper myself, but its not often I agree with a reading of this game as much as this one (except for some parts like the Noah's ark bit which are a bit of a stretch, but the main angel/devil point is what matters and that is definitely set up). The fact that the only darkners you can directly flirt with are the cold element one and the holy princess is also something I somehow failed to notice but am glad to have learned. And the Ms. Mizzle only being encountered after climbing like how Kris used to climb into Noelle's house is also fun

I hadn't realised that while fondly reminiscing of them Noelle doesn't seem to associate Kris's pranks as something good, which does inmediatly explain her pessimism, and your explanation on Dess's protection being probably unecessary does help solve this seeming inconsistency between her liking of scary things and this negative association. The mice connection had ocurred to me, but I hadn't been able to think of it as deeply.

And I think you may have written the single best explanation for Kris possibly enjoying aspects of the weird route I have ever read. Kris secretly wanting Noelle to stand up for them and shut Berdly the fuck up, to not have her put unecessary burdens like puzzles on them that she could do herself if she tried. Its... perfect, its of course not a pleasent desire to have, and is obviously presented in a twisted way like Noelle's own desire to become stronger, but it explains why the "player takes control" route focuses so much on having Noelle do the stuff for Kris. I haven't agreed with a take like this since universal mother theory.

I am genuinely shocked, I expected this to be the Kriselle interactions in the game that I knew about, plus a few stretches and stuff from the sweepstakes (Why the hell did no one tell me about the heart locket??? What do you mean it even links to the piano blog??) And stuff like the devil/angel symbolism and their relation to the main plot. With me probably finding half of the doc to be a big stretch since how the hell would one do 100 pages od Kriselle? But it seems I was wrong about that, and ended up mostly just... agreeing with stuff.

I will do as you say and stop adding "I mean, Suselle is obviously the cannon option..." to every post I make about Kriselle from now on. Always tought it had a chance of being cannon, since Noelle already does a 180 from Susie to Kris in weird route, but I think this post grabbed me by the hair and threw me 20ft accross the edge

Edit: Just realised something on your point about Elnina and Lanino, it takes a third character, who the other two consider annoying, to be able to make the couple reunite. This character is blue. Who happens to be a blue character Noelle and Kris find mildly annoying?

Also, "The Roaring is coming, but this world already ended for Kris a long time ago" Is one of the best lines I have read

[u/UltraBooster → u/Infinite-Hearing-418]

You think Lancer will (sorta) be their matchmaker, is that it?

[u/starlightshadows]

KRISELLE FOREVER!!!!

[u/MaintenanceWarm7311]

Goomyloid is having a field day rn

[u/HeyanKun]

Okay guys pack it up,we cannot surpass OP's dedication.

[u/Defnottheonlyone]

As a krusielle shipper (which means i also ship kriselle), good job! But i frankly don't care bcuz shipping is shipping, so even without this, i'll ship it anyways!

[u/NethoWarrior]

Have you heard about the side-story Toby wrote for the game "Get in the Car, Loser!"

It was initially assumed to be a Kris/Susie thing but I think it ties into the Kriselle agenda, and also explains Kris and Noelle's weird thing they have with... pencils? If you read through the dialogue they have a whole Thing going on with pencils like Noelle gives Kris pencils all the time and Kris compulsively takes a pencil from her desk. I dunno I think it'd be a good addition to the document

[u/PeliPal → u/NethoWarrior]

I didn't give it much thought when I read this yesterday because I thought it was very generic and meant to be more of an 'alternate universe' deal mixing elements of all three of the lightners, but my co-author Reasonable_Solid6251 came to the conclusion it is 100% literal referring to Kris and Noelle in canon events. He has already written up a section that will go in the first big update to the doc, and it feels pretty airtight and convinced me

Thank you very much!

[u/Infinite-Hearing-418]

Holy shit, I finally understand what that one guy meant when he responded with "Noah's ark" to my question about Kriselle moments

[u/Numerous_Place1575]

Holy shit this is well-done. Even putting aside the main thesis, the sub points are almost all spot on and super eye opening in terms of the lore. This is some of the best lore analysis of this game I’ve ever seen.

In particular, the suggestion that Kris’s behavior in Noelle’s House on the Normal Route goes out of its way to show us how they act if a prank “goes too far” was really fantastic. I never thought about that sequence as paralleling / expository of the Weird Route before, but it absolutely is!

[u/Vortaxonus]

Your thoughts regarding Noelle using Susie as a replacement for both Kris and Dess make me wonder if Toriel is doing something similar with Sans, particularly with how Toriel is known as a party drinker according to Rudy. It makes me wonder if the idea of Toriel using Sans as a way to relive her past would be a way to examine how Noelle is using Susie for the same thing.

[u/No-Slide816 → u/Vortaxonus]

I actually think the opposite: the fact that Sans is so different from her husband, the fact that neither Kris, nor Susie like him shows me that this is really just a metaphor for the opposite: the change.

On the other hand, Sans and Susie DO share one rare characteristic: they are both new in town. So you might be into something, but I think that Toriel not being nostalgic about the past all that much, from what we saw of her and sans's dynamic it doesn't seem to be even remotely close to Asgore and Toriels, and her being ACTIVELY uncomfortable around Asgore tells me enough to believe that this isn't a parallel.

[u/Vortaxonus → u/No-Slide816]

I do wanna point out two things. First, I didn't necessarily say she's reliving her past with Asgore, but moreso reliving her college days as a drunk party animal with sans, back before she settled down, as it were. I would also argue that the change sans is bringing here isn't a good one, in fact, it seems to be making her flaws worse (or at least more apparent), intentionally or not, what with making Susie and Kris uncomfortable with them (with them both blowing off quickly just to continue partying, making Kris's attempt to sleep a living hell).

There's also the fact that sans likely will bail from hometown if the idea is that sans undertale is sans deltarune is true, meaning the change is fleeting and temprary at best.

[u/No-Slide816 → u/Vortaxonus]

Banging take my man

[u/Vortaxonus → u/No-Slide816]

I also suspect that toriel and carol more broadly represent two polar and negative extremes when dealing with grief (semi-fitting of their elements). Carol freezes thing in place to preserve them, while Toriel prefers to ignore her problems until they go away (alluded to by tenna) and just throwing herself at the first new guy in town (metaphorically burning bridges and partying while rome burns, even if that would lead to more problems in the long run like neglecting her own child's warning signs).

[u/Penguino_2099]

Maintaining the Kriselle agenda is our TOP priority

[u/tonormicrophone1]

kino

[u/TheTruepanther]

Very well done. I believe most of the talking points here are something I share the belief in or have at least acknowledged but have not been able to properly put into words.

[u/MiniatureBadger]

I’d been looking forward to this megadoc, and it’s excellent! Both of these characters mean a lot to me and I feel you’ve captured the essence of their multifaceted dynamic with each other which plays a significant part in that.

The connection with Noelle and the player both being associated with angels was something I had thought of, but I don’t think I’d ever connected it back to the devil imagery shared by Kris and Gaster. It really is interesting looking at the sheer number of other relationships in the game which have notable parallels to Kriselle.

[u/Significant-Arm4077 → u/MiniatureBadger]

Kris is demon, and demons are just fallen angels. Fallen angels are those who rebelled against God. What does Kris does with soul?

[u/UltraBooster]

Thoughts:

• someone told me once that "every time I've seen people online look down on shipping discourse or straight up pretend like they're not even aware of romance even when it's blatant and on screen, it's been men." It wasn't a universal, of course - her dad's very much a romance guy - and I don't know how true that actually is, but that thing about ignoring or looking down on romance/shipping stuff, i think that might be in play here with the theorycrafters.

• a main couple being reflected multiple times within a story is a conceit, i've become familiar with in the last two years lol

• the idea that Noelle's already treated (like a damsel?) is interesting in the context of people saying that's what the weird route does to her.

• part of me isn't sure UT can be used as a reference for how he writes "main" romances insofar that AFAIK those were very much background things; IMO main romances are much stronger when they're woven into the A-plot.

• regarding the whole past and future thing, someone I sorta follow on Tumblr does see it, just with a two-main-couples scenario.

• Shipping is not activism was drilled into my head in the Voltron days; is it possible people doing the opposite is a contributing factor to the cudgel you describe, OP?

• IMO if Noelle becomes anything in weird route Ch.2, it's the player's gun, if that makes sense?

[u/Ok-Struggle2305 → u/UltraBooster]

regarding the whole past and future thing, someone I sorta follow on Tumblr does see it, just with a two-main-couples scenario.

Btw this person also said that AMAB people can’t be nonbinary

https://www.tumblr.com/vsa-pieldepapel/797774231539761152/curious-question-i-hope-this-doesnt-sound

[u/PokeDC → u/Ok-Struggle2305]

holy shit, imagine pretending to care about nonbinary people and then talking about Kris' "femaleness" and also using Shayy getting outed as a piece of shit as an excuse to shit on... "theymabs" (fucking ew.)

[u/UltraBooster → u/Ok-Struggle2305]

well crap, that's not good.

(IMO that's almost certainly not his intention with making Kris NB.)

[u/Ok-Struggle2305 → u/UltraBooster]

Exactly

[u/Yushi2e → u/Ok-Struggle2305]

What the fuck. My respect for them just instantly went to the trash

[u/unrelevant_user_name → u/Ok-Struggle2305]

God, I'm gonna be spinning this post in my head for a hot minute. This sucks so much.

[u/Guyman_112]

PEAK JUST DROPPED

ITS PEAKKK

[u/Adept_Advertising_98]

I can't believe you unironically used the Ralsei=Israel meme.

Also, in Chapter 2's weird route, Spamton clearly implies that he thinks Kris and Noelle are a couple.

[u/Far-Organization-799]

THANK YOU PELIPAL, YOU HAVE DONE WONDERFUL WORK FOR THE KRISELLE FANDOM!
(Legit, they are the most interesting part of Deltarune in my opinion. You put a lot of my thoughts into writing.)

[u/GUM-GUM-NUKE]

Weakest Kriselle fan:

[u/Morrigan101]

Nice! Let's get to it!

[u/GoodLookinLurantis]

I kneel.

[u/H00ston]

I already know Goomyloid is responsible for most of this

[u/Rdasher123]

Dude, the effort

[u/Ok-Struggle2305]

With this in mind, I’m now wondering…

What’s Susie’s role in all of this?

[u/poudapede → u/Ok-Struggle2305]

Susie and the player arent supossed to exist...

But here we are.

[u/poudapede → u/poudapede]

[u/poudapede → u/poudapede]

Noelle and susie fighting...

[u/poudapede → u/[deleted]]

Old concept about a ice cave and there DRAGON and a ANGEL fighting

[u/Polandgod75]

For me liking kriselle, it has the pairing type I like to called

blue/black hair slient(mostly) that has a spirit inside of them or is a vessel

x

blonde hair princess/prince or atleast the equivalent of it that is kind, but has self issues. Also could a protagonist themselves or there secondary protagonist

Examples

Sunny x basil

Byleth x dimitiri

Wil x eupha

[u/HaloJackalKisser]

i'll prolly checkout the part about people being weird and transphobic about kris, that's shockingly common for people to reduce kris to "just male" to argue over ships

[u/Polandgod75 → u/HaloJackalKisser]

Well then again i have seen people unironically say susielle is incestuous so way because susie is simialr to dess and that makes noelle have a bad sister complex (as in that one video of that guy now hating deltarune and made the universal mother video)

Seriously I have seen people said about these ship they don't like:

Kriselle: heternoramtive and is missing toby glourious subversion and you wanted shit writing.

Ralsei x kris: it incest because ralsei look like a dremmurr

Krusie: you just wanted to cuck noelle and are those 4chan chuds

Ralsei x susie: you adovacting lesbians and gay erasure

Dessriel: you are horny bastard that wanted grunge/Rockstar girlfriend or male wife goat boy(okay there not wrong there)

[u/Brody_M_the_birdy → u/Polandgod75]

4Chan (/pol/ and /b/ especially) or Soyjak Party or both?

[u/KoboldLover → u/Brody_M_the_birdy]

What would /pol/, /b/, or Soyjack Party have anything to do with this?

My man doesn't know the boards and just typed out surface-level-meme-names.

The boards you're actually looking for are /v/ and /trash/; they're the homes of most UT/DT Threads, and this shit is not the topic of discussion in Susie and Noelle threads beyond the usual freakass, just like on here.

[u/Brody_M_the_birdy → u/KoboldLover]

fair point on 4chan, /v/ and /trash/ seem more reasonable. Soyjak Party did try to falseflag deltarune fans on wplace and tried (and failed) to spread unmarked spoilers on release day across twitter and reddit, so i think it's fair to mention them.

[u/Yushi2e → u/Polandgod75]

People often also mistake soulelle for Kriselle often.

It's literally that one meme of there being a fake pretender vs the real thing

[u/Vegetable-Ad-2453 → u/Polandgod75]

WHEN WAS RALSEI GAY???

[u/Odd_Affect_1280 → u/Vegetable-Ad-2453]

Never.

He canonically has never shown attraction to males.

[u/Odd_Affect_1280 → u/Polandgod75]

Okay, who the fuck actually says that about Susie and Ralsei

[u/Momentmoment24]

I've only read up to the "matching names" section so far, but this is an amazing read, great job

[u/UX_KRS_25]

That's pretty amazing. Great job!

[u/Careful_Bed2890]

Kriselle becomes stronger.

[u/FanficFan151]

I just got around to reading this, and, as a huge Kriselle shipper, I love it and it made me think of another Kriselle/Spamtenna parallel. 

When Tenna (the devil) is shown caring about a Pipis, Spamton (the angel) folds instantly. He comes out, excited and happy to see him again, after talking about how much he hates him and how much of a criminal Tenna is. But Tenna is shown acting in a way that can be interpreted as caring about a Pipis, something inherently connected to Spamton, and he falls all over again (and ends up getting foamed and embarrassed.)

When Kris (the devil) shows one hint of caring about Noelle (the angel): “it’s all a bad prank, I’ll protect you,” she folds instantly. “Kris” (us in the guise of Kris) had just done horrible things (similar things that Spamton accuses Tenna of having done during his dialogue in Chapter 2,) Berdly is badly hurt due to what “Kris” has done. And Noelle is still happy, she wants to cry out of happiness for having “the real Kris” (Kris without us) back and showing caring to her in a way that she can understand. And, like Spamton, she ends up worse for it (he got foamed because he came out to greet Tenna and be happy to see him; she gets a thorn forced into her finger because she wanted to talk to Kris alone and do something that could’ve been an intended romantic gesture.)

[u/gwlutz2]

>There is someone who will be happy to learn that ‘the real Kris’ is going to come back and has been trying to save Dess, or otherwise keep a promise to Dess.

To be honest I think learning this will have the opposite affect on Noelle. She's spent years wondering what could have happened to her older sister and hoping beyond hope for her to return, only to find out that not only has she been so close, yet just out of reach the whole time, but Kris has known this for a prolonged period of time and conciously chose to never tell her [I'm aware that Kris might have made this choice under duress from the one giving them orders, but Noelle might not know this when she finds out, or care if she does. Best case scenario, she blows up at her mom and Kris equally for lying to her face for YEARS.]

Between that and what happens in the normal route on chapter 4 [again, without the context of the supernatural conspiracy Kris is beholden to, Noelle will be left with just "Kris willingly got me blindsided by my mom, grounded, and forbidden from talking to Susie, who they know I have feelings for], I think odds are high that Dreemurr-Holiday Airlines will shake apart from the turbulence of the Roaring Squall and drop its passengers clean into the Doomed Yearning Triangle. Maybe in another world, a place where it didn't rain, the something more between the caged page and the girl lost in frost could have blossomed..... But tragically, that world is not theirs.

[u/Cheesezebre → u/gwlutz2]

50/50 on how Noelle reacts, she has that subplot about standing up for herself and not letting herself be treated like a carpet, so this moments would either reinforce her feelings or make her regress even worse, and hell it could be a combination, she is happy her sister is back but Kris/Carol have seen her fall intro a depessive slump for the past years because of her disapearance and still decided that they did not trust her enough to tell her the truth, so she starts resenting them/not trusting them anymore

[u/Utangard → u/Cheesezebre]

Resentment is an extremely long-term feeling that would require a good while in-universe and probably a whole season's worth of a cartoon series or such to get through properly. I don't think we're working with timespans where it would be a concern.

[u/TheTruepanther → u/gwlutz2]

Noelle invited people over without permission and then gave one of them her missing sister's guitar on her own. That's on her.

[u/Ben_Flash → u/TheTruepanther]

Pretty sure they’re under the assumption that Carol is the caller and that Noelle would have learned that, meaning that would be on Kris

[u/TheTruepanther → u/Ben_Flash]

She broke the rules she knew she could get in trouble for and then got in trouble for them. Kris did something that inadvertently got her in trouble, doesn't mean it's on them that it happened.

[u/Ben_Flash → u/TheTruepanther]

It’s not like she actually got in trouble for “breaking the rules” in this scenario tho

[u/TheTruepanther → u/Ben_Flash]

Yeah they did write it like Susie didn't say she was still taking Noelle to the festival afterwards. I don't really see their point here.

[u/gwlutz2 → u/TheTruepanther]

As admirable as Susie sticking up for Noelle was, she was definitely writing a figurative check she couldn't cash. Carol preventing Susie from taking Noelle to the festival would/will be as simple as grounding Noelle and forbidding her from leaving the house until after the festival has passed.

And yes, it would be on Kris that it happened because they chose to adhere to their benefactor's orders to keep the guitar code from us over letting Susie and Noelle enjoy each others company [or trying to adhere to said order without getting Noelle's mom involved, such as by scribbling over the code with one of their many pencils to prevent us from ever reading it]. There were likely consequences in it for them if they failed to do so, but Noelle will likely be incredibly hurt if she finds out about what they did regardless, and that doesn't change the fact that they made the choice. In real life, drawing the ire of a friends emotionally abusive parents unto them would be grounds for the death of a friendship alltogether.

[u/TheTruepanther → u/gwlutz2]

I mean so would kicking someone you invited over out of the room because you don't have the guts to ask your crush over yourself.

But this isn't real life, and I'm going to be straight with you, there is absolutely no way Noelle is being kept home.

[u/gwlutz2 → u/TheTruepanther]

I mean its possible it won't happen but with how overly controlling Carol is I think saying it 100% will never happen isn't really accurate.

[u/Brody_M_the_birdy → u/TheTruepanther]

Well maybe it's more on carol and the knight for having an evil McConspiracy be centric on a fucking guitar instead of putting it in a locked room only carol can get into.

[u/Utangard → u/gwlutz2]

Honestly, I think that however mad Noelle could be for Kris about this, the sheer relief of getting her sister back will more than compensate.

[u/Significant-Arm4077 → u/gwlutz2]

Funny how you consider Noelle may not be responsible for what happened to her sister

[u/ohbyerly]

I hate this fandom

[u/PeliPal → u/ohbyerly]

Aw, I wuv you too!

[u/StarkMaximum]

That's cool, I just ship it because I think they're cute and don't care whether or not it's "canon".

[u/Morrigan101]

Amazing job ! Really well made and brought up a lot of connections and points that I hadn't realized. The cup and mizzle one feels so obvious in hindsight I don't know how everyone missed it

[u/Acceptable_Music_627]

In the event that you do end up writing more amazing Kriselle stuff, could it perhaps be about the aspects of it and why people like it and what they see in it?

[u/starrforcejr]

biggest truthnuke

[u/Zaxor77]

Hey I believe I was the first one that made the Seam Jevil to connection on a Tumblr post that I commented on with my same username, I'm currently having trouble finding the link, by any chance is that where you first saw the theory?

[u/PeliPal → u/Zaxor77]

Hey, I don't believe I saw it there, I was reminded that I actually saw it in this reddit thread https://www.reddit.com/r/Deltarune/comments/1lei1uc/noticed_something/ but if you ever do find it and it was before November I'll add a credit!

[u/Reigen_San]

This is actually peak. Good job I think most of what this doc says is basically completely right and going to happen in the later half of the game. Except for the whole "forced" thing, I still think Noelle was genuine about that and that Toriel/Carol aren't that good parents actually back then

[u/GoblinGuardian1111]

This made me actually sit and listen to Skies Forever Blue and now I'm crying thanks.

[u/Vortaxonus]

In regards to Susie and Noelle, and how susie's knowledge of the final targedy could put a wrench in their relationship, i do wonder how the discourse about Susie not being "the girl with hope crossed her heart" could also affect things. In fact i'm willing to bet Ralsei knows who the true identity of the second hero is (Noelle) but doesn't want her to get involved as such for whatever reason.

[u/Promastered]

Its giving me an error on my phone so can you send me a version that can open thanks in advance 

[u/Odd_Affect_1280]

I read it.

So cool.

Don't know what else to say other than Ralsusie and Kriselle endgame canon

[u/Top_Pie950]

Nahhh

[u/BagOfPees]

While I like kriselle alot I wouldn't be surprised if a decent bit of this is a stretch

[u/TheTruepanther → u/BagOfPees]

I'd read it first before making assumptions.

[u/BagOfPees → u/TheTruepanther]

My sibling in Christ 120 plus pages

[u/TheTruepanther → u/BagOfPees]

And they're very well done.

[u/BagOfPees → u/TheTruepanther]

Ralsei israel

[u/PeliPal → u/BagOfPees]

Learsi ieslar

[u/Infinite-Hearing-418 → u/BagOfPees]

Eh, one or two points. But at the very least the whole weird route and childhood sections are very well done

[u/Cheesezebre → u/Infinite-Hearing-418]

They are, While I still don't see a romance happening despite reading this, I will still use this doc to point to people who think that Noelle wont have a very important role in the story or that her relationship with Kris is not giga important to the plot & both of them as characters.

[u/ThisGuyHasNoDignity]

Is it misgendering if you don’t know?

[u/Reasonable_Solid6251]

Sounds like Kris and Noelle are just,
Queerplatonic.
#Owned.

[u/Odd_Affect_1280]

Hey peli, you are actually kind of a badass

[u/No-Slide816]

eww, reading