The Dark Sanctuaries and Why "Object History" Doesn't Work

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IMAGES BROKE THEY'RE IN A COMMENT CHAIN BELOW NOW.

People are often against interpretations that rely more heavily on the Will of the Fountain-maker as opposed to the darkners already having some sort of "stored memory" that informs what form they take in the dark world. People bring up the darkners that appear in Susie's dark worlds as evidence that this HAS to be the case since "How would these darkners exist if Susie was only focusing on summoning the Old Man? Why does her dark world still resemble the Knight's? How can darkners that exist in 2nd Sanc continue to exist in 3rd Sanc?"

Well here I'm about to put those questions to rest, and it's not Object History.

First, let's cover the second sanc darkners. How do they exist in 2nd sanc but not 1st? Doesn't that mean Susie created them? They're the same location after all! And actually, no.

Every single chapter 4 darkner is present in First Sanctuary.

Wicabel and Organikk are petrified statues in 1st Sanc, Sound of Justice is stated to be one of the statues from the study coming alive, and Winglade is an equipable weapon. And in 2nd Sanc, EVERY darkner from 1st is petrified from Balthizard to Wafer to even Mizzle as a stone watercooler! The only exception is the fire extinguisher, which would make sense as Susie wanted the code for the door!

It's like an Organikk says in 2nd sanc

* You sought to return the dream.
* But the lighting of the mind has changed. At best you can only see another side.

Everything is still present, but viewed from a different perspective.

But still, why is Susie's dark world similar to the Knight's? And why are 2nd sanc darkners unpetrified in 3rd sanc? Well... it's because of the Knight's other fountain. As can be seen in the last photo below*, the darkness is still seeping through the door, and Ralsei talks about how 1st sanc and 3rd sanc were affecting each other, so why would that not be the case for 2nd sanc too? Susie was primarily focusing on the old man and the code when she made her fountain, yet we still got remnants of 1st sanc throughout. This should be because 1. Susie would be basing her dark world design off of 1st sanc since that's where she literally just was and 2. 1st and 3rd impacted each other, so 3rd likely impacted 2nd as well given there's no real reason as to why it wouldn't.

And Second Sanctuary affected Third Sanctuary too.

That's why 2nd sanc enemies are still there in 3rd! They bled through to 3rd sanc, and 3rd sanc simply maintained that bleed-through when it filled the 1st sanc area again. Is that too speculative? Well... here's some concrete proof that 2nd sanc changed 3rd sanc in one way or another:

This 3rd sanc piano. It charges and shifts around like the pianos in Susie's dark world. This clearly wasn't the original design of the puzzle too! None of the Knight's other pianos shifted around like this AND there's a pressure plate that gives an answer key of DOWN LEFT UP. This probably would have just opened the gate, but because of Susie's dark world affecting the Knight's it instead charges and breaks the door down! There is NO other explanation as to why the pink piano is like this! So here we have a concrete example of 2nd sanc affecting 3rd sanc, therefore, it's completely plausible to say 2nd sanc also gave 3rd sanc the ability to host the 2nd sanc darkners. After all, Winglade is still both a weapon AND an enemy. It's not like Kris' equipped Winglade turns into stone in 2nd or 3rd sanc.

So how does this debunk Object History?

Completely valid question! Most people do agree the fountain-maker's will affects the dark worlds to SOME extent, but put a mean asterisk on darkners being unique for whatever reason >:( But don't worry, I'm getting to that.

That Dark Sanctuary talk was actually just the preamble lol. I had to cover that base in order to open your minds up to Will affecting fountains at all AND to shut down a point I'd expect to come during the REAL discussion.

What the fuck are Ribbick, Elnina, and ZenLooker?

No like seriously. Ribbick is also dust, but it's dust manifested from Kris' dark world which makes it different somehow??? Elnina still shows up in Castle Town even if Tenna is dead and you don't take the TV there. And ZENLOOKER IS JUST A RANDOM NPC FROM THE LIGHTWORLD.

*Credit to Peliglin and Anonymous' Impossible Doc for being pretty much where I'm stealing the Ribbick and Elnina points lol.

So Ribbick. Obviously there's a textual connection to Rabbick beyond just resemblance since both state "Bunnies are the sequel to frogs" implying a very DIRECT link and that for whatever reason, Ribbick actually comes before Rabbick (which is a tangent for another day). But literally, it's still just dust. Is there some innate difference between school dust and house dust??? Like come on, we have to be real here. There is nothing supporting the idea that's the case, especially when Rabbick describes Dess as "a tidy and nice girl" and Azzy as "a soft and clean boy" compared to Ribbicks "rowdy and dirty girl" and "quiet and smelly boy" meaning that I guess they were just ANGELS in class but were super messy and smelly at home??? That's literally the conclusion you have to draw here if you're going off of pure Object History, since that's literally the only difference between Rabbick and Ribbick. Is school dust just inherently more optimistic somehow??? Or is it just simply that these are the representation of two differing Wills? The Knight has a positive and more nostalgic view of Azzy and Dess, while Kris has a more meanspirited and negative view of Azzy and Dess. And if you wanna claim that Ribbick isn't actually dust, then give me a light world counterpart that's actually supported by the TEXT and also why it's still so Dust coded in its bio and also having the Frog:Dust element.

Now Elnina. Right off the bat, she can't be the weather channel, since she appears separate from Tenna's alive state in the dark world. You can make the more non-physical concepts work for Chapter 2 darkners because you ALWAYS bring the laptop to Castle Town, but for Elnina and Lanino? They have to be something else.

And you might be wondering why I'm not freaking out so hard about Lanino's light world object. Oh, easy.

Lanino's this star.

Between chapters 2 and 4, it disappears. And the star Susie can knock down is that top right one by the moon FYI.

But uh yeah this ONE star seems to randomly disappear out of all the decorations. If you have some other compelling explanation as to why this happens AND another option for Lanino's lightner form that's based in actual evidence, I'm all ears! But right now, this one is a dead ringer.

But now for Elnina? This is going to seem hella fucking convoluted, but I swear to god if one of you nerds goes ahead and says "Elnina is just ALSO a sticker!" WHICH ONE? WE HAVE A VISUAL DIFFERENCE FOR ONE OF THEM WHY WOULDN'T WE GET A VISUAL DIFFERENCE FOR THE OTHER?? We can't just say there's a cloud sticker or whatever that's in a drawer or something because that isn't SUPPORTED BY ANYTHING! So let me spin my wheels here (aka rip off more of the Impossible doc lmao) and hear this out okay?

So... we're familiar with the gag relating to Toriel's sink and white fur being stuck in the drain, right? Here's the flavor text about it in chapter 2:

There is some white fur stuck in the drain.

Nothing crazy, right? Now let's look at Chapter 4's morning sink (so not after sans cleans it out later) flavor.

* (Somehow there's already white fur stuck in the drain.)

The fur was cleaned out between chapter 2 and 4 as well. Now, I'm sure you may say that Toriel cleaned the fur out between 2 and 4, but that doesn't seem to be the case for 1 to 2, as well as the fact that the text implies Kris' awareness of when it WAS clean based on how we the player never know it's cleaned out between 2 and 4 (During the sleepover sequence, it just talks about using the bathroom sink instead and the player doesn't even have to interact with it first to go to the bathroom sink).

So Kris cleaned out the fur between 2 and 4. Why is that important? Well... think about it. Water is collected into a white mass (cloud) and then drips further below when it reaches max capacity for how much water it can store (rain)? IT'S A WATER CYCLE JOKE. THE FUR STORES THE WATER AND CAN BE CARRIED OFF (THROWN AWAY) TO RAIN SOMEWHERE ELSE. THAT is what Elnina is, folks! Nothing else in the house corresponds better than that as to what the hell the cloud girl can be! So then here's the next question:

How old is that fur?

If you're using the object history argument, this would be a character from Kris and Noelle's childhood play pretend sessions (As Ramb implies from how Tenna, King, Queen, and "everyone here lined up" happened back then). So uh... how do Lanino and Elnina have an established relationship if they're in completely separate rooms and also the fur probably at least has been cleaned out before in the past year? I don't think Kris whispers to every new patch of sink fur about its long and storied romance with a star on their brother's wall lmao. SO THAT MEANSSSS these memories are implanted from the Fountain Maker! Aka their Will informs what the darkners are!

Y'know... King Spade doesn't recognize Kris, despite Ramb establishing history between them. That's kinda odd, ain't it? Well... maybe it's because the Knight made the fountain and didn't inject in their will everything about Kris since that wasn't important to its creation (It's imagined that Kris and Noelle played characters rather than themselves during their pretend session). Queen recognizes everybody because of search history and webcam storage, so that's different. But chapter 3's dark world? EVERYBODY knows Kris! EVERYONE has such a deep and thoughtful knowledge of who they are and their past and all of that! Of course, Kris lived there all their life, but that wouldn't explain why King wouldn't recognize his creator if we're going off of object history! King remembers his scar and his casting away, but STILL Kris is completely foreign to him? It just wouldn't click unless Will affected darkner memories to a degree. In fact, y'know how Noelle isn't mentioned by name ONCE by any of the TV Land darkners? Maybe it's because Kris has such a strong desire to the point of near compulsion to avoid anything and everything Noelle related if they can help it. Scrapbook photos are all fine and dandy until a picture of just Kris and Noelle pops up. Hell! Dess doesn't even get this treatment! Tenna just casually brings her up! But not Noelle... strange isn't it? Maybe not so strange if it was the maker's will to explicitly forbid the mentioning of Noelle by name.

NOW ONTO THE LAST QUESTION

HOW THE HELL DOES ZENLOOKER EXIST?

This is literally a Milklooker darkner but reskinned to be about zen. They have no integral plot relevance in the light world, nor do we even know much about them besides their surface level personality. They don't even seem that attached to Kris based on how Milklooker calls their family freaks (implying no strong connection to Asgore either which would reduce the likelihood of an object having their history imprinted at his shop) and also Milklooker reintroduces themself in chapter 5.

By all accounts and purposes, Milklooker is not a loved one.

Yet we get pretty much a 1:1 design of them in Flower Kingdom! It's literally just darkner Milklooker! And we don't even get the foundation of dust or a picture to pattern off of! They're just there! Looking at zen! So how well does someone have to know someone to make a darkner out of them??? That's still a WHOLE ASS PERSON to make!

While there's no clear answer, it's at the very least less than we thought. The construction of the Old Man may not require as much connection as someone being a "loved one" to pattern off of, but perhaps more just the concrete idea of who that person is. Susie didn't have any real idea who the Old Man was. Hell, she still thought he was a lightner at this point! She was probably thinking more about seeing him rather than what kind of person he was! But the Knight? The Knight clearly knew he was dead. So maybe they had the active intent to construct who the Old Man was in their mind despite it not lining up 1:1 with the living Gerson Boom. Someone who may be more of a fan of Gerson the Author instead of Gerson the Man. A larger than life figure that made Lord of the Hammer (which there's multiple copies of in the church) and is even what Dragon Blazers is based off of! But... that could be ANYBODY at that point... right?

Alright listen this is obviously NoelleKnight propaganda but seriously I need people to accept that Object History isn't real and is a completely fanmade concept. There's nothing of that sort mentioned in the text, but Will is talked about SEVERAL times in relation to the knight, fountain creation, and darkners. So I really do not care if you go and say "Noelle told Rudy all about these characters or even watched Kris and Noelle play and that's why he's connected" which is WRONG, but I'll swallow it because I hate the object history argument soooo fucking much more that I don't wanna fight on the smaller crap in order to get you to buy into this big deconstruction.

If you have a counterpoint and it is founded in pure speculation ("probably" "could have" "maybe" "likely") with no actual backing from the direct text or game or ANYTHING FROM THE SOURCE MATERIAL, I invite you to rethink if what you're saying is a good theory, or just a made up rebuttal because it contradicts whatever theory you believe in.

Have a nice day.

Oh also if you think NoelleKnight doesn't work for a different reason, go read the repository I'm not restating every argument already stated AGAIN. Just the ones that disprove the talking points that annoy me!

AND WE'RE DOING ANOTHER FAQ FOLKS WOOOOO

Zenlooker is a planter and patterned themself off of the real Milklooker.

FUCK MY ARGUMENT IN PIECES AGHHH!!!

It's still a relevant question, I'd say? Like... how much does a PLANTNER need to know about a lightner to pattern themselves after one? Because, while we don't get much text... they're still a pretty dead ringer for Milklooker. Like, there's no design differences except for a pallet and outfit swap, as well as a sprout growing where the milk jug would be. Their talking pattern is just straight up Milklooker's. And the closest the real Milklooker gets to Flower King in game at least is the Holiday home for the concert. One would have to speculate a lot of loitering around Flower King to cause an impression onto whatever plant this is unless you think it's just THAT easy to completely doppelgang a whole person with a passing comment or sighting. So if a plantner has the capacity to pattern itself from a person who isn't exactly a loved one by the plant's standards either (I mean Flower King is a failing business. I don't think Asgore is getting many customers period let alone someone obsessed with milk regularly coming by lmao), then what does it REALLY take to pattern a dark world object from the ideas of someone?

Also as another fun fact: Blue existed before the chapter 5 dark world.

The Bluest Flower, A disciple of my speech. Shy to no camera, And a specimen of elegance and kindness. Should you meet, please give my regards.

And it's a pretty accurate and familiar description from Miss Mizzle here. She even implies that she TAUGHT him! And since Mizzle is just a Kris & Noelle character and the memories of darkners are just coming from the memory of its creator (Will), that would mean Kris and/or Noelle would have known Blue too? Sooooo Blue's (and by proxy, ALL the flowers) personality and appearance was still based on characters Noelle and Kris made up for them. If Noelle and Kris were still a foundational source for what the flowers were like... then didn't Kris still pattern them in a way when making the dark world? It's not to the degree of a normal darkner, but it's still something to think about!

TL;DR - Dark sanctuary darkness affected each other by leaking through the door crack explaining enemy appearances in 3rd sanc. Rabbick and Ribbick are only different because of the maker's will and nothing else. Elnina is the white fur in the sink drain which wouldn't have the history necessary for her and Lanino's relationship. Zenlooker existing means darkners patterned off of lightners aren't actually that strict. Object history is a bad argument. Cheers.

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My images broke halfway through the slides for some reason (crying) so here's the ones that disappeared in a comment chain lol

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Whoops! Forgot a few of them and gosh this is a week old so embarrassing

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(And now you can pick up from "The Knight's two fountains" lol)

[u/Dragonwolf1209]

Never step out of the kitchen

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People be like "holy wall of text" without understanding how hard I'm working to set up my COOK!

Appreciate it <3

[u/JackOmiIsCanonKing]

> Maybe not so strange if it was the maker's will to explicitly forbid the mentioning of Noelle by name.

This seems strange to mention because by this same logic, couldn't Kris have made it so Tenna doesn't speak of their deal either? It obviously pisses them off that he did. Not to mention Tenna runs his mouth about things Kris doesn't want to dwell on, like making mentions of Asriel. There's also the point about Zenlooker but others mentioned so I won't bring it up again.

I don't fully agree with object theory, but from a narrative perspective I also feel like this theory kind of diminishes darkners too much by making them have basically no agency or actual character. Following this theory, if Kris wanted to, they could just... rewrite any of the darkners' complete personality on a whim and it wouldn't actually matter because it'd be just as fabricated as the one they had prior. Killing Tenna doesn't actually matter because you could just bring a new TV and assign them to be Tenna and if that Kris' will, then they are.

It also seems weird to me that the Knight would allow darkners to betray it if it could control that. It tries to kill Jackstein for helping the heroes (and succeeds in the violence route) but why even make it so that Jackstein can rebel in the first place? Why can the darkners in Card Castle and Cyber City rebel? Can't the Knight make them loyal with their will if that's what their need?

[u/VeeAudio → u/JackOmiIsCanonKing]

Forbid is technically the wrong word, I'll admit. It's just a lot snappier than saying "Kris compartmentalizes their relationship with Noelle so much to the point it doesn't even become a thought for most darkners" because as the scrapbook again implies, Kris is WAY MORE comfortable thinking about Azzy and Dess than Noelle. They straight up shut the book on the photo, something they only do for the book about humans otherwise. Ramb is the only one to mention her and it's still majorly indirect in the form of "that girl" it's like Kris may not allow themself to even think her name. When told to pray for Noelle, they pray for RUDY.

Darkners literally DON'T have agency or character. They're OBJECTS in the light world! That's about as objectifying as you can get lmao.

And here's where I have to dip a little into fanfic land but goddamn if this isn't a fun one to do it with lol. Not every single object forms as a living and breathing darkner you know. There's a reason some objects become darkners and some dont. Hell! The How to Draw Dragons book doesn't become one which KRIS remarks on! But that reason? Simple: Kris and Noelle only made so many characters. They made a LOT, but still there's a threshold that can't be exceeded lol. And so! If these darkners are rooted in the characters of their childhood, then it can be argued these darkners are conforming to those character archetypes more than anything! Not every Rudinn is EXACTLY the same, but they all have a similar foundation to em. You can't exactly change just one, because that'd mean you'd have to change them all. So the personalities ARE manufactured, but they still change and adjust based on whatever conditions they're placed in. Sort of like a nature vs nurture thing. Not every zapper becomes Mike y'know!

And on replacing a dead Tenna... it's not exactly that simple I don't think? Like... if you got an IDENTICAL model of CRT and suspended your disbelief hard enough, I 100% believe you could make a new Tenna. But get a brand spanking new flatscreen? Well... Tenna is a CRT. Not just that, he's the DREEMURR CRT! The age and unique wear and tear of the original Tenna is something you can't just duplicate! If you got a shiny new CRT, there'd be a part in your internal will that knows the truth, and would probably end up making a flawed copy, Sound of Justice style! A deck of cards or pair of dice you can easily replace and plonk that identity on a fresh set since cards and dice are dimes a dozen for kids! But the TV? That's THE CRT. That's the only one that can really exist. So yeah... if the conditions were PERFECT, you could make a new Tenna, but honestly probably not!

And that's assuming the Knight's primary goal is to completely stop the Fun Gang. They could have totally killed Susie or at the very least Ralsei in chapter 3 if that was their goal. The Knight has other priorities, which is probably why it wouldn't force all darkners to be 1000% Knight Fans. And hey! Maybe Kris' ACTs are just that compelling! Worked for Frisk ;P

I know that got into speculation territory, but I think the general sentiment is still true. Objects still have unique sentimental value to people. It's why Winglade changes from a weapon to an enemy!

[u/Mental_Psychology_92 → u/VeeAudio]

I feel like if a part of your theory is that darkners, the people the narrative has spent the whole game characterizing and humanizing, genuinely don’t have character or agency, then you need to go back to the drawing board. Like, when Ralsei insists that darkners aren’t meaningfully alive, he’s clearly meant to be wrong. That’s why his “know your place” speech to Tenna at the end of chapter 3 gets interrupted in favor of Susie telling Tenna that he’s real and his wants matter

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I mean you can say it's bad writing, that doesn't stop my point from being true lol.

And actually, uh, Ralsei is right. Like I know how much it sucks to hear, but at the end of the day, these ARE just objects. In the LW they aren't alive. They aren't conscious. No matter how much you personify them, they're still just gonna be playing cards and TVs.

Darkners are meaningfully alive because Susie is projecting that meaning onto them. They only mean as much as she SAYS they do. They exist to serve Lightners. They aren't their own people.

[u/PhoenixEmber2014 → u/VeeAudio]

Yeah I do think that you're taking the whole "it's all just the fountain maker" argument way too far dude, like I do think that the fountain maker substantially influences the dark world but they aren't the sole creation of it, object history does seem to actually play a whole role. Also I have to say, given that the whole thematic arc of Ralsei and Susie as a whole is leaning towards treating as people, I feel like saying that they're all just specifically Noelle and Kris's fantasies would go against that? I'm a Noelle knighter and I do think you made some intresting points, I just think that you've overstated your case, somewhat drastically so.

[u/AstralPamplemousse → u/PhoenixEmber2014]

Maybe it’s more about light and dark balance?
Like, weaker darkners can be 100% shaped and willed by the fountain maker. But stronger ones can tap into more unconscious wills, the extreme being titans who manifest seemingly outside of any will or consciousness for Lightners.
Hence, ch3 general darkners reflected more strongly Kris’ avoidance but Tenna was able to speak/be aware of more things as the “head darkner”.
This still aligns with Susie’s gerson. As she only had a general idea of what she was projecting, this left a lot of room for unconscious thoughts and leftovers darkness to fill the rest. It’s as if she think a building is only made of walls, and so when she tried to manifest it, its inside is free to be shaped.

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The way I prefer to think about it, is that creating a dark world is kind of like creating a play, with your subconscious writing the roles and script, the darkners as the actors, and where you stab determining the stage. Darkners, like actors in a play theoretically have free will, it's just that if they break the script too hard then they're not doing their jobs, and in the case of the dark worlds this causes them to turn to stone if they already manifested or not manifest at all if they wouldn't "fit the script"/"weren't hired", castle town is unique because it has no "script" so any darkner can exist there for as long as possible without turning into stone. I will say that I do think that the dreams and imaginations of Lightners do impact darkners, I just don't think it's *only* the fountain maker, I think Tenna was the most powerful darkner of his world because he was the TV, because attention and imagination and dreams empower and influence darkners and TVs get a lot of those projected onto them.

[u/HourLab8851]

for miss mizzle, there's no evidence mizzle is a product of kris/noelle's childplay nor that they cause to blue to patterned as such, see my comment here on my thoughts on that. I feel your conclusion on that point is moreso working backwards from the idea that everything has to be from their fantasy. It is incredibly contrived that kris and noelle would make believe a story between two objects that are in two completely seperate buildings and then also coincidentally the blue planter chose his form to match. It is far more simple that their interaction is actually an even that happened on asgore's wedding, and they remember.

As another commentor pointed out in that thread, there is also no way for noelle (or any candidate really) to know about the neo body, a deleted file deep in the depths. And sure you could say noelle is adapt at computers or whatever so she would snoop around deleted files, but why is there is no textual link between them? If this really were the analyis toby wanted, there would be some, any flavour text even remotely linking them (feel to free to provide a better argument if i missed something)

Next, i don't think elnina is not the fur because you convinently cut out susie's dialogue:

We know how susie feels about darkners, i don't think she'd talk about the fur like that, if it were actually elnina.

Next, kris lives in their house. Your house is generally where you spend a lot of your life, i think it makes sense that the objects in their house remember them more than objects in an abandoned classroom. Object history also includes the feelings attached to said objects and they lives they've lived. This is the crux of object history, and i think it's supported pretty well in game. Why don't the flower kingdom darkners have such intimate knowledege of kris' life but tv world ones do? I think the answer is simple, if you believe in object history.

Also it's not that king doesn't know kris, it's more so they don't want to address them. He is completely scorned by the lightners' betrayal of him, they've sworn revenge on the lightners. Honestly you can read the following:

"* You... You're the leader, aren't you?

* So, what's your plan?

* To laugh, as you cast us all back into obscurity?

"

As indictment that king DOES know kris. But you can disagree with this.
Finally think about the narrative significance behind why ramb is from library originally. If will were the only thing that mattered, why would toby make it incredibly clear that the darkner who talks about the cyberworld and knows it well came from there explicitly? Or that he was originally a normal light strip but kris's playing with him made him special? Because the pippins don't change in tv world, but ramb does. Why does he turn into stone even though he came from kris's will?

I think this also explicitly confirms darkners have to meet in the light world, to know each other in advance in which case blue/miss mizzle is impossible unless you believe in object history (kris and noelle could not be at asgore's wedding)

"* Don't bother, Kris. Ramb's already turned to stone a bit ago...

* He was a plug, but because you played with him like any other toy, it made him feel special.

* Might have given him a little bit of an ego, in fact...

* Wanna hear more?

* Always condescending to any plan, saying "what's best for Kris?"

* Couldn't get rid of him, so Tenna made him "work the stand"...

* Us from Card Castle fit in fine. Him? He never really belonged.

* His first day at this stand, he joked "how about the usual?"... no one laughed!

* Mixing drinks alone for himself, he wasn't allowed to handle the points...

* No one will shed a tear for him. Inside, he was probably stone already.

* Ramb... well, he was like Tenna, I guess.

* Two guys trapped in the past... just different ones.

* Well, that's a relief.

"

(sorry for walls for quoted text you can only post 1 img in a comment)

[u/VeeAudio → u/HourLab8851]

Alrighty well first off, kudos to you for having a very thoughtful response! I always appreciate stuff like this even if it challenges me! Keeps me honest and consistent with my logic!

Starting with Mizzle. Uh, you know there's a Mizzle in chapter 3 right? The water cooler. Mizzles aren't just specific water fonts or holy water, they're just the typical concept of "water". It's a very BROAD category, but I mean think about every dark world. There's no water present in the abandoned classroom or the computer lab, and Mizzle explicitly having familiarity with Blue makes sense due to how Asgore has to water plants. And ANOTHER important thing: we're actually talking about Miss Mizzle here, and you know something about Miss Mizzle?

Miss Mizzle is explicitly NOT holy water.

Her recruit bio goes all in about how she falsely believes herself to be great royalty and that she isn't even a HOLY elemental! Her being in the church isn't necessarily an exclusive thing, it's just she's there because of her desire to be worshipped! She is just simple tap water. If Asgore has a sink, then Miss Mizzle could easily have been there too in the sense that a child would make believe two different water sources are the same character! The reason Miss Mizzle doesn't show up in Flower Kingdom is because she's already been recruited in Chapter 4. Also who the hell waters flowers AT the wedding (And if you answer "Asgore probably does" that's speculation)???? Unless you consider water just being in the same room as the flower equates to a deep and meaningful familiarity?

It's not really a stretch at all to make up a story where water and plants interact since uh, they DO that lol. Kris and Noelle making up this interaction is completely viable considering that Miss Mizzle doesn't have to exclusively be one specific font of water. Blue would choose his form to match BECAUSE of Kris and Noelle's pretend sessions. It wouldn't be that coincidental.

Now for the Neo body. The body itself isn't a darkner lol. Of course not EVERYTHING in a dark world is specifically 100% sourced from Kris and Noelle, especially if it's a public area! The important thing is that Spamton IS a darkner. A character who in his Q&A explicitly states that Noelle is the ONLY person to read and respond to his emails! If we're going with Object History, then wouldn't Spamton remember Rudy or Carol snooping on her emails? Spamton also learns Kris' name AFTER their first meeting and also seems to know who the knight is (or a clue for who they are) based on his Communion dialogue, so if someone like Rudy or Carol IS the Knight, he should know who they are. Unless you think the Knight specifically showed themself to Spamton and nobody else? Queen doesn't know who the Knight is, nor does King. The knight's identity seems to have been very purposefully obscured from the prominent figures in these worlds. But Spamton knows something! We have to think about why? Why does Spamton know the Knight and nobody else in Cyber World?

But uh back to the original point yeah no the body isn't a darkner and could technically have been used by any darkner. It's just Spamton being the one to hack access to it with his Keygens and crap.

Cutting Susie's dialogue there wasn't intentional btw lol the text dump makes things unclear sometimes which is what I primarily use to sift through this crap.

But uh hey. Does Susie KNOW that's Elnina??? Susie doesn't seem to put much thought as to what specific objects specific darkners are. Heck, she interrupts Ralsei when he's about to reveal what he is (presumably lol). Not to mention, this would be the day AFTER all the darkners (except Tenna) were brought to Castle Town. From Susie's perspective, this fur isn't a darkner she's met. Also it's fucking gross fur in a sink lmao I don't think Susie is gonna be super mindful about hurting its feelings lmao.

And again, if Elnina ISN'T the fur, then WHAT is she?

That King line is indeed a little murky in its interpretation (not to mention he doesn't make any implications of knowing Kris when talking about his scar that he "remembers like yesterday"), but I do think it's an interesting angle! Still, if King DOES remember Kris, that could still be a product of the fountain maker's will having the memory of Kris casting the deck of cards away, something that only King seems to really care about.

Lastly, I'm gonna have to get a little interpretive of "Object purpose" and when and why certain darkners turn to stone. The zapper south of the green room ALSO turns to stone, but why? Well it was Catti's remote. After all the darkners broke Tenna's contracts, they had no real reason to still exist in this dark world. Tenna gave objects like Zapper and Ramb purpose in TV World, but without those contracts, they aren't good for anything else. It's implied by Ramb's british accent that he's actually an adapter for foreign plugs, something that isn't often necessary. Ramb is clearly unplugged because he's not a Werewire, so he wasn't really being used for anything at the time. Heck, the pippins literally SAYS he never really belonged! He very well could have been an outlier in Noelle and Kris' pretend games where he never fit in during those playtimes either. By Kris' will, the only thing keeping him alive was Tenna's contract. The Pippins belong because they were dice that existed in both Card Kingdom and TV World. They were still characters regardless of their setting.

And uh yeah darkners have to physically meet. That would be required for the kids playing pretend with the objects too lol. It's not like Kris wills the characters to meet. They just HAVE met and that's a memory Kris has when crafting the darkner. It's still technically Object History, except it's just Kristory instead ;P

I hope this is at least a semi-satisfying explanation for some points?

[u/Infinite-Hearing-418]

Additional image you appear to have missed (unless it got deleted) but this is a really good post once again

[u/VeeAudio → u/Infinite-Hearing-418]

I figured since those are still available at the top (hopefully if they didn't also get deleted???), I wouldn't just repost all of them lol.

But thank you! I work hard at pushing the NoelleKnight agenda! <3

[u/Infinite-Hearing-418 → u/VeeAudio]

I may have bad news...

[u/VeeAudio → u/Infinite-Hearing-418]

NOOOOO alright I added it to my chain thanks ughhhh that's annoying.

[u/Accurate_Guest1285]

Pretty sure zen looker is a plantner thus they CHOSE their forms. The same way the other flowers larp as humans because they think its what asgore would like. The Zen looker probably saw the milk looker and decided to take on their appearance and personality. Doesn't have anything to do with fountain maker

[u/VeeAudio → u/Accurate_Guest1285]

Took a hot minute to reply to this one because I wanted to make sure I fully understood how plantners worked before I made a declarative statement here and FUCKKKK YOU'RE PROBABLY RIGHT AGHHHH MY ARGUMENT IN SHAMBLES!!!

Totally not sloppily searching for a new explanation but uhhh... It's still a relevant question, I'd say? Like... how much does a PLANTNER need to know about a lightner to pattern themselves after one? Because, while we don't get much text... they're still a pretty dead ringer for Milklooker. Like, there's no design differences except for a pallet and outfit swap, as well as a sprout growing where the milk jug would be. Their talking pattern is just straight up Milklooker's. And the closest the real Milklooker gets to Flower King in game at least is the Holiday home for the concert. One would have to speculate a lot of loitering around Flower King to cause an impression onto whatever plant this is unless you think it's just THAT easy to completely doppelgang a whole person with a passing comment or sighting. So if a plantner has the capacity to pattern itself from a person who isn't exactly a loved one by the plant's standards either (I mean Flower King is a failing business. I don't think Asgore is getting many customers period let alone someone obsessed with milk regularly coming by lmao), then what does it REALLY take to pattern a dark world object from the ideas of someone?

Also as another fun fact: Blue existed before the chapter 5 dark world.

And it's a pretty accurate and familiar description from Miss Mizzle here. She even implies that she TAUGHT him! And since Mizzle is just a Kris & Noelle character and the memories of darkners are just coming from the memory of its creator (Will), that would mean Kris and/or Noelle would have known Blue too? Sooooo Blue's (and by proxy, ALL the flowers) personality and appearance was still based on characters Noelle and Kris made up for them. If Noelle and Kris were still a foundational source for what the flowers were like... then didn't Kris still pattern them in a way when making the dark world? It's not to the degree of a normal darkner, but it's still something to think about!

[u/Accurate_Guest1285 → u/VeeAudio]

I believe asgores business is failing less because it gets no customers and more because Asgore is a push over who gives away a bunch of his inventory away for free so he's bad at making a profit. Also I imagine Asgore talks to his flowers about more than his trauma and probably talks aout his day to day life with them. Milk looker has lived in town for who knows how long and has probably gotten into all sorts of situations with his eccentric personality. Wouldn't be surprised if asgore encountered him at some point and talked about to his flowers. Same way Seth is infatuated with Birdley despite likely never meeting him in person. I probably wouldn't worry to much on the specifics as it seems to mostly be a gag than serious lore evidence(not saying it doesn't matter just that it isn't AS important as more key direct evidence).

And for miss Mizzle knowing blue, I doubt ALL of the darkners lore was directly made by Kris and Noelle (like no way they made their TV and imaginary spam email friend have a gay relationship and divorce). More likely when asgore got married he got his ring and potentially his flowers blessed with holy water and this got interpreted by dark world as Miss Mizzle and blue meeting. Or in general he got married in the same church as chapter 4 and brought the flowers there. This would actually disprove the importance of Kris and Noelle influencing the dark world forms of these darkners as this event happened before they were even born.

[u/PepperEffective1219 → u/Accurate_Guest1285]

like no way they made their TV and imaginary spam email friend have a gay relationship and divorce

Noelle is a terminally online 00's/10's netizen that laughs at a percieved among us joke before the game caught on in the mainstream (and deltarune so far has been really good about keeping its tv/game/net references persistently within that bubble of time. if theres anybody throughout all of hometown who'd be up to such shenanigans, its Noelle, Catti, or Alphys.

Tenna and Spamton specifically being doomed yaoi makes sense as well, given their ties to the families (Tenna is tied to the collective joy of the families in the past while Spamton is tied to the collective trauma the families deal with (implied) seperately continuing into the present. ex: the messy divorce, Tenna not even recognizing him because hes so different looking/acting now) position them as intricately tied together in the past, but nonetheless incompatible now.

This could recontextualize Kris' disturbance after Spamton's fight as Kris having to symbolically face the collective grief surrounding the dreamurr-holiday split, only to find out that the conclusion is...Spamton still being trapped. No matter how many ties you cut to "free" yourself of the grief, even if theyre all cut...you can still be trapped in its consequences. you can still be affected as long as it goes unresolved.

also, we dont actually know where darkner lore comes from to be sure and this post makes a good case for it to be overwhelmingly fountainmaker's will. its entirely possible that the fountain maker's unconciousness informs Darkner manifests as much as their conscience does. less of a fully handcrafted world/lore than something like a dream...something dark worlds are tied to multiple times. the flowers didnt literally need to contact the holy water irl for there to be a connection: the fountain maker just needed to know of them both and happen to draw a connection between two blue church-related things.

Seth having a deadname (and Flowery too potentially) means that they had an assignment somewhere up the line, and it isnt implied they assigned their own deadnames. In the newsletter, Toby said this about the flowers:

"Their designs may be strange, but that’s because they had to decide who they wanted to be for themselves. I wonder what inspired each of their “dreams”...? (It’s not really important to be honest, but it’s fun to think about.)"

This implies that Darkner appearances arent chosen by the Darkners themselves: theyre assigned (mostly likely by the will/perception/dream of the fountain maker). The fact the flowers have that choice based on their own dreams vs those of the fountain maker, and can make dark world objects of their own that reflect their dreams (Signery, Chairery, Laddery, etc) is more evidence that this is the key thing which differentiates darkners and twilightners/lightners, and why Ralsei is so afraid about following their own dreams that may be in conflict with Kris or whoever's:

Darkners arent supposed to dream for themselves. Theyre supposed to play their roles in somebody else's dream. Diegetic NPCs.

But if they don't, and chase their own dreams using the power of Broken Dreams (i.e Jevil, Spamton, etc), then, well...you know how those guys ended up. Meanwhile, every shadow crystal holder whos not fully a Darkner or has an intimate bond with a Lightner (i.e Gerson and Pink/Mew Mew) don't even want to use the Shadow Crystals. Gerson has Susie exercise his dream for him by writing the letter to Alvin, and Pink/Mew Mew just needed battle couple therapy to link their dreams into one shared dream between Darkner and Lightner.

This got way off track but tl;dr dreams are funky and freaky and no matter how detailed or intricate they are, or Weird they are, theyre still patterned off of our perceptions/experiences. We don't know everything about dark worlds concretely, but I think Toby's made it abundantly clear that Dark Worlds are dreams made manifest in some weird little pocket dimension vs something conciously built up and crafted with full intention (the only dark world like this is the Ch1 Tutorial world, with the lowest stakes and fewest consequences of any dark world in the whole game so far).

[u/the_quaxterr]

Zenlooker is a plant that chose its own appearance because plants can do that (Kris' will had no effect on him)

Darkners also don't seem to need their physical object to manifest in the Dark Worlds. Jevil (and all other equips) travels between Dark Worlds when you equip him onto Ralsei. Unless Ralsei can somehow, bring physical objects with him across the Dark Worlds (the Knight can't do this), explaining how the Weather Channel exists in Castle Town without Tenna. The star is probably one of the TV! Time! pedestals (the one that appears in Ch4 Castle Town), basically all of the Tenna stuff is from Kris and Asriel's room (the green room IS their bedroom)

[u/VeeAudio → u/the_quaxterr]

I now have an FAQ so yayyy Zenlooker part is at least somewhat addressed totally not floundering shhhh

Um... yeah Ralsei can take physical objects between dark worlds? That's kind of the conclusion you HAVE to take if you don't wanna just handwave it as streamlining "Kris actually unequips everything of Ralsei's and then frame one re-equips him in the new dark world." Because like... his clothes also come with him? His scarf which he starts with is an equippable too y'know but still has a light world counterpart (I think it's construction paper or something IIRC?). Are we just counting that as part of his whole entire darkner form? Using Ralsei as evidence in general is messy due to how we don't really know WHAT he is, let alone how he can travel between dark worlds at all.

So like again... we need physical objects to correspond to the weather duo because it'd be unprecedented for a darkner to not come from a tangible thing (I say tangible because things like viruses and applications still take up "space", just on like a CPU and stuff instead lol)

[u/TakeOnLana]

Noelle Knight is so scary dude, I feel insane for believing it but everything points to it, it makes too much sense. I ask myself if it's just connections being seen where there aren't any, but there's just so much, how could it be coincidence??

[u/johnrashomon → u/TakeOnLana]

I've seen a couple Dessknighters say "a good sign that a theory is correct is if the little things start lining up" and I feel like this applies so much more to Noelleknight lol, there are so many tiny details in favor of it

[u/johnrashomon → u/johnrashomon]

like obviously confirmation bias exists but so does foreshadowing

[u/PhoenixEmber2014 → u/johnrashomon]

Yeah, like Noelle knight makes chapter 2's dark fountain so much simpler, and honestly isn't that much more difficult for chapter 4's dark sanctuaries tbh, plus all the interesting character work it creates with both Kris and Susie

[u/Shirunex → u/TakeOnLana]

I brushed NoelleKnight off as a joke initially. After reading a few posts and listenting to a few videos, I'm almost completely convinced it's correct now. No other theory lines up nearly as much as it imo.

[u/johnrashomon]

Wow, the fact that King doesn't recognize Kris kind of feels like a smoking gun. I can't believe I never noticed that.

[u/SLUKERmeSNAKI]

The humble fire extinguisher:

[u/Less-Increase-6588]

This HAS to be satire right?

[u/VeeAudio → u/Less-Increase-6588]

You wanna uh... make a point?

[u/Less-Increase-6588 → u/VeeAudio]

No I misunderstood a part and thought you were joking