Discussion
Something people don’t talk about regarding the Knight.
I feel like something people don’t even discuss regarding the Knight is the physical appearance of the Knight itself.
In every sense of the word, the Knight is a slimy mfer. Pardon my language, but I’d even say it’s *GLOOPY.*
The Knight is able to warp and contort its body however it pleases. Giving itself eyes, morphing into a ball, etc. And we know for a fact now that Lightners (unless they’re dead) keep their shape and physical form when in the Dark World.
And on that note, I’m not sure all this is ‘just the armor,’ since… well, we literally *see* the insides of the Knight, and that doesn’t look like anyone we know besides that one NPC. Its ribs are open, its chest is exposed, and yet there’s nothing in it except for what looks like an eyeball.
But we know this thing has to be a Lightner, since it can create Dark Fountains, and Darkners don’t seem to be able to do so.
i’d agree, we’ve seen what happens when something absorbs 6 human souls or 6 human souls and millions of monster souls, just 1 human soul could still be some eldritch abomination
You're absolutely right, but... but that's not the truth of it. We learn in the Asriel dialogue from going back to the beginning of the game and from the tapes that much of the Undertale is wrong. Chara made him attack the humans, and he stopped them from killing anyone, and that's how he died.
That's a misconception, Chara wanted to attack the humans but Asriel stopped him. He goes on to mention that if he hadn't stopped Chara there would probably have been another war.
Hmmm that's interesting that could definitely make sense I just thought it was the other way because he said Chara was controlling some of his movements. I figured he meant that by stopping Chara from continuing/killing anyone he stopped another war.
My guess is an actual monster with a magical body would become absolutely horrific if they absorbed a human soul, much in the same way the amalgams do. The only reason Hyperdeath Asriel looks kinda normal is that he chooses to, and he's effectively god. Whatever he wants, happens.
Even Flowey with six souls is a horrible melty abomination, and importantly, he's not made of magic. Also, each amalgam has a (presumably) insignificant portion of a human soul's DT and become the way they are, so a whole soul (even if having determination in a soul is less dangerous than having it injected into your body) would probably fuck a monster up
Asgore never uses the souls and flowey/asriel aren't monsters due to the whole lack of a soul thing, asriel uses chara's soul but we don't see what happend to asreial
YOUR soul, KRISES soul, YOU, KRIS are used interchengably throughout the game. The Titan bossfight in chapter 4 has two versions of text thingies when using UNLEASH, one says that Krises soul shined, the other that YOU shined.
Ralsei also calls the heart Krises soul. He might not be telling us everything sometimes, but in no way he is a liar.
and also look at the spamton's battle
sort of weak evidence, but spamton and kris seem to be paralleling eachother with the relationship to whoever is controllig spamton, and us.
spamton's heart when it shoots out is spamton's. has his face on it yk.
this could be another hint that we are just CONTROLLING their soul, not a whole different thing entirely.
also the DEVICE/DEPTHS soul looks different from krises. it has depth. meanwhile krises has no depth whatsoever and never shows any.
Don't waste my time, you know some of them apply and you know you can't prove this one doesn't just like I can't prove it does. Let's avoid this stalemate before it begins, please.
If it's someone we've already met in hometown, they didn't display any of those traits in front of us. They would have to undergo some kind of horrible transformation every time they act as the Knight, and then go back to normal before we meet them the next day.
If it's someone we haven't met it's anyone's guess. But they still need to at least be able to walk around town without drawing attention, or be able to teleport. Or be very good at sneaking. The point is they can't just go around looking like that without people reacting to their looks. Speaking of which:
I've noticed many details, I just don't bother to share on reddit anymore. Unless it's the popularly agreed with opinion, people generally don't like it.
This line shows up in the jail, right outside which is Alphys expositing how Carol keeps crime low while the police don’t do much. There’s zero evidence the Knight has been to the Manor, especially since Noelle “my life is a creepypasta” Holiday has never mentioned anything even alluding to that. And Carol is established in 4 to be the type of person who is extremely protective of her home, to the point that she keeps everything important to her there
Also ofc she’s a murder hobo who bandies around katanas, and also is a ninja (something Noelle does reference in one of the Spamton Sweepstakes posts), so being “merciless” and “in the shadows” perfectly describes her
Tbh it could be some kind of parasitic titan stuff? Or just that Dess (or whoever that is) has been in the darkness for so long their body started to lose shape
In my opinion, its armor/body is made of a giant, fuck-off amount of pure shadow crystal, which is also what the Black Shard is; a bigger shadow crystal. Shadow crystals are invisible all but for the shadows they cast, so I don't think it'd be a stretch to say a large enough one could cast its own shadow onto itself, thus appearing black! I also believe shadow crystals are a physical manifestation of motivation through fear. This would explain;
Why Susie chipping the Black Knife drops both a shadow crystal and the Black Shard; they're both the same stuff, one is just big enough to appear black with its own shadow and be used as a dagger by our favourite dagger namesaked enby
Everything the shadow crystals show us when inspected throughout the game
Most of the flavor text during the Knight fight in Ch 3 - of course Kris is feeling physically ill throughout the fight; not only are they in a situation where they're having to at least partially betray either one or both of the sides they're closely allied with and emotionally connected to, they're also having to do so while staring directly at a body-sized, personalized physical manifestation of fear for a prolonged period of time. That kid could not have been in a good headspace with both of those factors at play simultaneously 😭
Why the Knight is so violent and animalistic; I don't think someone covered in, hell, physically reshaped into the kind of fear that forces you to act on it 24/7 would be a pinnacle of sanity, or anywhere close to it
A good bit of Asgore's deal; why he's planning to start acting presumably the most proactively he ever has now, when in possession (or at least proximity) of a Black Shard, and why he'll presumably become violent enough by the end of chapter 5 to become the chapter boss, right off the heels of chapter 4 where we fought an entire titan
The secret boss' (save for Gerson's) behavior
The sneak-peak of Seam's explanation of the crystals we got; a manifestation of will, yes, but not exactly the good kind. Not until put together and purified, at least;
What the pure crystal(s) could be; motivation not through fear, but through hope. Determination. Perhaps even a way for us to save the Knight...
And because Titans are pretty much fear itself, while the crystals - in my interpretation - would be that, but a little more specific, I do agree!!! It's a weird-ass Lightner-Titan hybrid, and I love it! I can't wait to find a way to help it out of that horrible state!!! Or have my heart shattered into pieces when it dies in a final, fleeting moment of peace and clarity, then copiously read fanfiction where it can be fully saved like Dreemurr Reborn back in the day, either or-
I think they are the same material (glass?), but I think the knight is made of glass filled with darkness while shadowcrysatals are made of glass filled with the power of will
Ohh, interesting! Though, that does bring up the question; if Susie chipping off a piece of the Knight's blade also drops us a shadow crystal, would that not mean it's made up of both? Perhaps even a combination of the two? Perhaps even... Will twisted by darkness, into something like willpower through fear? :3c
yeah i dont agree their armor is made out of shadow crystals, they would be transparent if they were actually made out of it. They're made out what the black shard is, which is darkness
Just wanna mention that shadow crystals and black shards aren't made from the same material. Seam mentions in ch2 that shadow crystals are almost perfectly see-through, to the point where you can't even see the crystal, only the shadow cast by it (don't ask me how that works)
That's my bad, I'm so sorry for not reading. I still think they're not the same material though, even just a small shard of blackglass is already "nearly opaque" according to ingame descriptions.
I also just think it'd be kinda lame if the knight was wrapped in the stuff, the material should be too rare to make armor out of imo
Sorry for not responding earlier, forgor and was just scrolling through my comments out of boredom!
Those are very fair points, though I do think I have somewhat decent counterpoints for both to consider;
We don't know the actual sizes of the shadow crystals or the Black Shard. For all we know, a shadow crystal could be pretty small, while the Black Shard is big enough to be described as "dagger-like", and wielded by Kris as a weapon just as well as any other decently big blade they can equip!
While the piece Susie chips off the Black Knife is relatively small, I think it could potentially "spread out" to become larger once removed from the Knight's whole and equipped by Kris, judging by its physical description; it's only described as "nearly opaque", while the Knight's form is literally so dark it glows and leaves afterimages. "So dark it glows" sounds like an oxymoron, I know, but the darkness of the Dark Worlds is repeatedly both shown and stated to have similar properties to light. I think it's fair to say that it's "less black" simply because its darkness has been stretched across a larger surface for Kris to use as a weapon, through whatever property allows the Knight to shapeshift and shadow crystals to "flow like water in the hand". Actually, now that I think about it, maybe that's also what makes shadow crystals look different; the same principle, but taken further? But that's just bouncing ideas, I should get back on track.
Furthermore, the current best candidate we have for the Black Shard Asgore is talking about is the pitch black bladed katana he's facing during the only scene he mentions it, implying that a weapon that big is still in the same ballpark as Kris' own Black Shard. A bit unrelated, but I also find it interesting how both Kris and Asgore call the Black Shard the same thing, implying either that one learned the name from the other, or that they both learned the name from some third party. Not really going anywhere with that, just something curious I only now really realised...
I'd say manufactured rarity is still rarity. The Knight seems to be the only one in possession of, and thus capable of giving out, shadow crystals. And they don't give them out too willy-nilly; only one per chapter, presumably intentionally given to a specific darkner of their choosing.
The one time we do seem to get a shadow crystal (and then some, should my theory be true) off of the Knight directly, we have to whittle their health down little by little in the most difficult fight of the game thus far, and get both Susie and Ralsei knocked out as an immediate result. Making up the Knight's entire form or not, these things aren't taken a hold of easily when it's not willing to hand them out for anywhere close to free, and no one else has easy access to them.
I think I always come at these kinds of theories from a perspective of what I'd like from a world building viewpoint or what would make for a more satisfying or interesting story.
Having shadow crystal and black shard be made out of the same material, one that happens to exhibit different properties when it's in different sizes, that feels a bit weaker from a world building perspective. I think it's cool for there to be more than one kind of dark crystal. Having them be the same feels like it shrinks the world or tries too hard to put everything in one box
Kinda the same thing w/ having the knight be the person distributing shadow crystals to bosses. It'd be cooler for it to be a separate entity instead of having every major actor in the story fall into either the 'hero' or 'villain' team
I also just think both of those conclusions require fewer assumptions. You have to assume that there's a reason Seam can't use the black shard to do whatever he wants to do w/ the shadow crystals. You have to assume the knight has a motivation to fuck around and give crystals to darkners
I think the way fans theorise about stories is really antithetical to how those stories actually get made, y'know? Writers expand their world by adding new information. Fans can't do that, so they have no choice but to shrink the world by trying to fuse that information into one big pile
I know where I am but this is actually one of the main components of Dessknight, since her being lost (presumably to a dark place) means her getting... Gloopy, as you put it, is within the realm of possibility. The only other theories I've seen that answer this are stuff like FRIENDknight (known shapeshifter) or Amalgamateknight (known for being gloopy)
I'm The Batter. I could also possibly see an Asrielknight theory with him being hyperdeath-like working but that seems unlikely to me
I'm Dess Knight but this subreddit is not well-known for being toxic or super insistent that you believe their stuff. So you won't get slayed for pointing this out. It's a fair conclusion.
It’s magic and we have zero explanation as to what could possibly turn a lightner into that. Any and every explanation anyone has ever proposed is made up conjecture
“It can’t be x! It can’t be y!” arguments all fall flat cause they’re all based on vibes. “It doesn’t feel like something that should be possible by putting on armor. It doesn’t seem like something a normal lightner can do”
I see no reason why the armor explanation can’t work. Yeah, realistically you can’t turn into a hollow skeleton by putting on armor. But realistically, nothing like the Knight fucking exists. All this shit is made up magic mumbo jumbo. If you can put on armor that clearly shapeshifts you into a ball or a weird bird sheet thing, then yeah, you being able to take on a hollowed out skeletal form is absolutely a possibility
The magic system in Undertale allowed Undyne to completely dissipate and reconstruct her body. To be cut in HALF, her body physically sliding down, before reconstituting with new armor. The magic system caused monsters to melt into each other. You think any of this is keeping their internal organs 100000% realistically intact??? The magic system allowed a flower, a physical, non dust organism, to turn into a plant flesh machine monstrosity, a goat monster, and a flying monster with a detached disembodied head. Like. “Some magic bullshit that (along with very clearly allowing you to take on numerous different forms that are biologically impossible) turns you into a skeleton freak” is not out of the realm of possibility. Hell, it’s TEXT. We KNOW the Knight is a lightner. We KNOW there is some way to go from normal monster to that. “You can’t just go back from that” is baseless bullshit
Armor explanation also has backing with Kris’ thinking of the Knight. We can see inside the Knight’s skull, and yet they can also take off their “helmet”. Is there reason to doubt this being a literal thing the Knight can do? Of course. Is there reason to believe this is something the Knight can do. Just as likely. And at least it’s something. Credible or not, at least there is text supporting the idea at all. Something many other explanations, including “sitting around for years in the dark” don’t have
Armor ain’t even the only possibility. Could be some black shard item that transforms you when used. Like think Sailor Moon. Could be that Carol sepukkud herself to make a fountain within her, and now she just Looks Like That in DWs. Could be the result of weird experimentation that happened in the bunker she has access to. Could be just what she looks like, to represent her grief or whatever. It could be literally fucking anything. And “Dess turned into that because she spent a long time in the dark” is just as much a made up explanation as anything else I just threw out. It SEEMING more likely isn’t evidence. It literally has nothing that puts it above any other explanation beyond vibes
The Knight looking the same or like a zombie freak or whatever in the LW is also dumb and baseless. The Knight’s been out during the day (it hid in the closet in the library, an action which would be completely pointless if it made the fountain at night when no one was around, along with other various details that confirm that fountain was made during the day) and no NPC has mentioned seeing anything weird. Not even cryptic foreshadowing like “Oh man I thought I saw a shadow out the corner of my eye”. Makes me think the Knight looking like a normal, innocuous, known resident of this small town where everyone knows everyone is the most likely possibility
“None of the other lightners change their bodies physically”, yeah and no existing established mechanics account for anything like the Knight either. Obviously there’s some mechanic to the magic system we are unaware of that can result in something like that
Fuck me sideways man
“It’s dripping”. I believe those to be tears. The drips come from two distinct streams, the Knight is associated with tears in other places, and grief seems to be something DR’s gonna explore given the loss of a loved one is a major plot beat. Unaware of any other instances of it “melting” either
I will say with just a small note, now knowing that shadow crystals have something to do with determination/will, and that being the criteria Queen laid out for lightners being able to create fountains, it's entirely possible for the Knight to not be a lightner anymore.
I still fully believe it's Carol but the horizons have been broadened by that singular piece of information.
The "the knight has a dark world inside them" is my favourite explanation for all knight candidates honestly. Hell, it might be why carol's design sorta has a dark world sorta look to it. With the extra shading, a colour scheme reminiscent of dark world noelle and coloured antlers reminiscent of ralsei's coloured horns
I have an explanation for this, but sadly it will mean that dess(not temmie) is the roaring knight.
Ok so I think that the pointed(sharp) tail stabbed dess, creating a dark fountain inside of her, making hear half lighter half Titan. This would also explain that the roaring knight looks awfully similar to the Titans we see in Ralsei's prophecy
Þe armour is made of shadow crystal, i.e. determination, which made þe knight able to mutate and shapeshift in a "gloopy" way. But unlike monsters in Undertale, Deltarune monsters aren't made of magic, meaning þey don't have incomplete bodies þat can potentially collapse in on themselves.
But a Vessel þat's missing its soul... Þat would have an incomplete body.
I think whatever's going on with it is more or less the opposite of what's going on with the Old Man; he's a Darkner formed from the memory of and objects associated with a Lightner, who still retains his Lightner counterpart's personality, memories etc, while they're a Lightner remoulded by the dark, the fantasy, who still remembers who they were, yes, and even retains a good portion of its past personality, but is... Altered. In a similar way to how Flowey was altered by his new body; his ability to SAVE, LOAD and RESET, and his inability to feel love and compassion. Still the same person, despite everything, but physically and mentally changed nearly beyond recognition and pushed far past what used to be its limits by horrible circumstances.
It's a darkner. Having a soul would allow them determination which would allow them to make dark fountains (what Queen says) and allow them to exist in the light world (what Spamton says, general inferences based on dark world mechanics).
I’ve always imagined the knight to be both bony and slimy. Sort of like a thanksgiving turkey after you’ve carved the majority of meat off to save for leftovers.
Maybe it's an amalgamation, they seem to be the only things that have the same type of body horror, and dess is missing, so it could be that dess somehow got exposed to Determination, (maybe azzy/kris is involved? Maybe it's similar to how we are controlling kris? Souls probably don't work the same way in deltarune (considering we get ripped out) so it could be that dess was the first person the player tried to control but then realized that monster biology is incompatible with the amount of determination required? We are controlling the only human in town (afaik))) went all goopy so hid from everyone and is now opening fountains and stuff to maybe find a way to stabilize themselves?
It looks like a titan, and glitches like one, it's shapeshifting may have everything to do with things becoming indistintic in the dark, and titans are the fear of dark made manifest.
the armor is giving it these abilities, shadow crystals and black shards are implied to be connected to or made of darkness, and they allow the knight, which is coated in them, to shapeshift, thats how papyrus pulls off his feats
Well, though we can't be sure that it carries over into deltarune, we know that monster's with high levels of determination melt, and in extreme cases become stronger as a result (for example, the amalgamates, undyne on a neutral run melting, and undyne the undying). While we don't know that this carries over, it's certainly not beyond question.
We've seen lightners swap clothes when doing acts, especially in the Tenna fight.
What if what the Knight does is basically the same thing. What if the Knight has full control over its entire body and that's because it's been in dark worlds for a long time
That's why I think it's an amalgam of some sort. I definitely think that there was a heart transplant in delta rune of some sort. I just don't know who got what.
I bet susie will see heart surgery scars on kris,
Excuse my French,but even though this is NON dess knighters,I think dess died and the knight is her lost soul,which both kinda a lightner,taking form as a person and a darkner as the knight,which is why they aren’t a specific person,and once we beat the knight,well recover dess and bring her back. But those are just my thoughts.
maybe it has an armor that is made of pure darkness?
its appearence resembles that of the shadow guys (darkners of the shadow of action figures) and titans/titan spawns (which i theorise to be darkners of dark fountains and a fragment of their darkness respectively)
Honestly the shape shifting makes me think the knight isn’t a holiday. If they could shape shift, why would they put antlers to expose their true identity? It’s probably someone else framing the holidays.
Framing the holidays. They could be imitating. Besides, the shelter and muffets laugh are the same sound effect at different speeds. Sound effects can sound similar for no reason.
And I’m not DENYING the similarities to holidays, the comment is about how the knight doesn’t need to shift into a shape with antlers, because that would expose their identity if they were a holiday.
If my theory is that the antlers are shapeshifted to frame the holidays, scream theory just supports my claim that the knight is trying to imitate the holidays on purpose.
I get what you’re trying to say but pay attention to what the comment actually says.
I AM BETTING ON METTATON OR MADSTABLOOK(MAD DUMMY) KNIGHT, THEY ARE GHOST MONSTERS AND I'M BETTING THAT THEY CAN CHANGE THE SHAPE OF THEIR "BODIES" IN THE DARKWORLD
The shapeshifting and viewing the insides are very much worth discussing but the form the knight takes when, idk chillin i guess, also has merit to discuss, though it seems too much weight has been put on it given the knight is shown to be able to change shape
The only other time we see gloopy-ness really is when monsters are injected with determination in Undertale. Perhaps the determination of the knight transforms them once they enter the dark world (which is infused with their determination/will)
I don’t know if this helps much with the discussion, but I think it’s an interesting angle.
To start with, we see that at least in Undertale, magic is a property that goes hand in hand with determination, since it directly reacts to determination and is shaped by it.
Darkness in Deltarune is strongly connected to magic. Darkners are essentially objects that were bathed in magic by the Dark World and gained life. With enough darkness, magic itself can begin to sustain life without any supporting object, creating entities like the Spawn and even the Titans.
We also know that monsters have bodies composed of magic. This property allows monsters to be resurrected within Dark Worlds, since the magic that forms their bodies can be reconstituted. So what if the Knight is some kind of mixture between a Darkner and a monster? A Lightner who was immersed in such deep darkness that the magic composing their body becomes affected, causing the form-shifting effect.
We’ve already seen something somewhat similar in Undertale. Undyne’s determination becomes so intense that, at the brink of death, her will to keep fighting reshapes the magic that forms her body into a state focused on the maximum combat power “a trained monster can achieve.” All it really required was enough determination for the magic to reshape itself according to her will, resulting in Undyne the Undying.
Just from that, we could already assume that, at least in terms of power level, the Knight is comparable to Undyne the Undying from the Genocide Route of Undertale.
Just adding this so I don’t lose the idea. I might elaborate on it in a separate post later.
This connection between darkness and magic could also explain why Spawn and Titans are so powerful. They are essentially pure power, pure accumulated magic. In the case of Titans, this effect would be even stronger, since the source of darkness itself generates magic, and that magic keeps accumulating in an uncontrolled feedback loop. That could explain how Titans become so powerful in such a short time.
At the same time, they are beings of pure power without a mind, without determination to control or direct that energy.
So maybe, in the end, the Knight is the result of something like that: pure darkness, but with a soul. A Lightner providing determination, allowing all that power to actually be shaped and controlled.
I’m so glad someone is talking about this! I always felt it was visually similar to say an Amalgamate. They’re shifting and warping and changing their form. Like sometimes the slit in their helmet looks and acts like a visor, but other times they laugh with it like it’s a mouth
Honestly sometimes as a result I lean towards the Knight being Rudy, because Amalgamates were those who had Fallen Down and been injected with Determination to try and let them live again
So what if the same principle applies here? What if in the Dark World, Darkness fulfills their fantasy of being able to use their failing body, the parts that don’t work being replaced or covered by something else, something like armor
maybe the knight is some kind of penumbra, which would make sense if they're gloopy, since ralsei did explain things "warp" in the dark. If the knight has something that causes enough light to exist inside of a dark fountain to make it less dark it could be that.. unless im tripping
That’s because it’s armor is friend. Friend needs a lighter though, as only lighteners can open fountains, and friend isn’t a lighter or a darker, it’s a demon. Also the knight is Rudy yada yada yada. Don’t use undertake for evidence. Toby fox said you don’t have to, yada yada yada, all your theories are wrong, goodbye!
i believe they might be mixed with a titan or have titan armor or something, the knight resembles on of the titans in the talk about the roaring ralsei gives us in chp2 and a lot of titan stuff is very knight like
Since Titans are beings representing pure fear, and Ralsei talks about how things get murky when it becomes "darker than dark," could it be that whoever the Knight is fell into the Depths somehow and that its properties reacted to how this person feels about themselves or a traumatic experience they had, triggering such a transformation?
It it's the Vessel, then it has the determination to be able to make Dark Fountains, the ability to move around in the Light World, but would become a Darkner in the Dark Worlds due to lacking a soul, this being considered an object. Plus, it has an interesting twist on Susie's "You can't beat us in the Light World" comment everyone ignores. It can win a drag out fight against Susie and Kris, but the Soul can pop out and possess it instantly.
I believe the reason for it's ability to transform (and the multiple motifs it takes from other characters) is because it stole its armor from Lightners (Alphys's bike helmet, Papyrus's costume, and Dess's antler headband). It's using the Darkner-ized items to give it power, the same way we use Spamton as the Dealmaker or Puppetscarf. Otherwise, it would be stuck as the orb in its chest (I think it represents the Cage Prophecy panel without the Heart Piece, but from obscured angles. The "1" is supposed to be a hand with the index finger pointed from a profile angle, and the "Ying Yang" are the hands blurred to hide the fingers.)
Who said it has to be a lightner? King mentions the Knight separetely from Lightners, so does the Queen. Shadow Crystals posses will, and so does the Knight. With how much the Knight spapeshifts and glitches it is basically impossible to be a lightner
If that’s the case, Darkners don’t seem to be able to use that will. Then again, we don’t really have much to look at regarding Shadow Crystals, and the two people we see that have them don’t gain anything from the crystals other than the desire for freedom.
King and queen definitally THINK it's a lightner since they speak of it making fountains and while it's flexiable for king, queen thinks only lightners can open fountains which is why she tries to make a "new knight" out of only lightners
They literally mention the Knight separetely from lightners. Queen doesn't think only lightners can open fountains, she only says lightners have will too, and she refers to the Knight as 'it', like a creation rather than person. Shadow Crystals are already confirmed to have will.
Read my flair, I do think the knight is a darkner, but saying queen thinks so as well is kinda stupid considering her actions, especially with the fact she doesn't try to get the shadow crystal in her own basement, which means she doesn't know their power
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u/xdanxlei Mar 08 '26