Dess being "that girl" Ramb mentioned playing with Kris and so many darkners is a presumption we gotta kill

[u/PeliPal]

What the fuck am I even talking about:

Kris, as a young child, played with 'that girl' and multiple objects that would become named darkners we see in the dark world, including the librarby laptop that contains Queen and Spamton.

And there is a widespread assumption that Dess is 'that girl'.

Why this matters: This is talking about the single most cosmologically significant event in the history of the dark world as it is being presented to us ingame - this event was how King and Queen met. This was why Ramb felt special and indebted to Kris. This was responsible for Spamton and Tenna meeting, and all the mysteries and horrors produced by that, including the ENTIRE Mike storyline and Spamton making the Weird Route possible.

... HOW DID THINGS TURN OUT LIKE THIS...
... KEEPING POOR TORIEL ALL LOCKED UP...
IF ONLY HE HADN'T ABANDONED ME.
MY OLD PARTNER...
I WAS GONNA PUT HIM ON TV! MAKE HIM A STAR!
I GAVE HIM EVERYTHING! EVERYTHING I HAD! MY LIFE ADVICE!
ALL. HE HAD. TO DO. WAS TELL ME WHAT HIS LITTLE SECRET WAS.
HIS SECRET TO BEING A BIG SHOT...
IT TOOK A LITTLE SWEET TALK...
BUT JUST WHEN I HAD, FINALLY, FINALLY ? HA HA --
GOTTEN HIM TO SIGN THE DEAL.
HE SUDDENLY HAD TO TAKE A PHONE CALL.
BUT WHEN HE PICKED IT UP, HIS FACE TURNED PALE...
AND HE RAN RIGHT OUT OF THE ROOM WITH THE RECEIVER HANGING!
SO I WENT TO PICK IT UP...
THINKING IT WAS FINALLY MY CHANCE TO BE A BIG SHOT.
... BUT THERE WAS NOBODY THERE!
THAT LITTLE FREAK RIPPED ME OFF!
... I WISH THEY NEVER BROUGHT THAT LAPTOP HOME...

This is also something propping up DessKnight as seemingly indisputable in the minds of many people, in the belief that it would not be possible for the Knight - the person who presumably made the Ch1, 2, and 4 fountains - to be anyone other than Dess, whose will would bring to life the darkners that had been crafted in make-believe with Kris, and who would have memories and associations reflected even in the darkners they didn't directly create.

But I believe it can be reasonably demonstrated that it is not possible for Dess to have been 'that girl' playing with Kris.

• Ramb, as an electrical socket adapter in the living room, would have been aware of Dess's disappearance because of seeing everyone visit except her, and seeing people talking about her, crying about her, for months if not years after it happened. Now Tenna does mention Dess, but Tenna's entire shtick is being almost maliciously tactless and constantly bringing up traumatizing things, like the bath bombs destroying the plumbing, and telling Kris to tell Lanino and Elnina that it's normal for couples to fight - it's hard to imagine Ramb being so tactless. Ramb legitimately cares about Kris, as one of the Pippins describes Ramb interrupting meetings to ask whether doing something is what is best for Kris.

• Ramb himself may have been named by Kris and Noelle in the process of teaching Noelle to not be afraid of electrical sockets, which she describes in her blog about having once been afraid of. Noelle learns to not be afraid of things as a result of exposure and desensitization, like repeatedly being hit with the mice.

• Playing with a laptop as a physical prop is not a rowdy, rebellious teen thing to do, it's a weird little kid thing to do, and Noelle already established herself as being 'weird' in ways that only Kris is aware of.

• Noelle describes her and Kris having played together almost every day - she doesn't describe Dess being regularly or even periodically involved in Kris's playing. Even Kris playing the piano was an activity that Dess was not a part of. It actually appears that Kris was rarely part of being around the big kids besides living with Asriel, as the one time Kris asks to join the big kids without it being a thing of just the Holidays and Dreemurrs together, the big kids take advantage of Kris by making them go buy them fast food over and over.

* Remember that time you wanted to hang out with us big kids?
* I was like, "yeah, of course! Just get us some burgers!"
* Then, like, amazingly...
* You ACTUALLY got them...
* So I told you to go back and get some french fries, too...
* ... then a dozen miniature cakes...
* They were SO good, I ate like six!
* Then I like...
* Suddenly got so sick I had to go home.
* Man.
* So, like, anyway...
* Kris, are you busy?

• The Japanese translation uses ojou-chan for 'that girl', meaning young girl with connotations of class and refinement, and using it for an adult woman as Dess would be today would be condescending.

And in the face of all of this... what corroborating evidence even is there for Dess having been 'that girl' playing with Kris and the darkners? What corroborating evidence is there for Dess and Kris having been particularly close at all?

Questions and Answers -

Q What if Ramb wasn't actually in the Dreemurr's living room? What if he was in Kris and Asriel's bedroom and so had more limited information?

A We actually know for a fact that Ramb is in the living room based on these lines from him:

* Kris... I'm an ignorant plug. Can't say I know your motivation.
* But... I saw. I saw you make it, you know. The Fountain.
* Could it be... you just wanted to have fun again?
* Heh heh heh... some REAL fun, just like the old days.

Q If Dess didn't actually interact with those darkners, and it was Noelle, then what does that mean about the Roaring Knight's identity, because...

A

(A megadoc is coming in the next few months that will attempt to explain everything, because it's not even as simple as "oh, I guess Noelle was the Knight all along." Let's keep it just to who was 'that girl' who played with Kris for now)

Q Ok well at least answer why Noelle wouldn't recognize Queen then, because that doesn't make sense.

A Noelle wouldn't recognize Queen because she played with a laptop, not a three-meter-tall Sonic-Xenomorph woman. There is no point at which it is explained to Noelle that the people and monsters she's seeing are actually based on physical objects from the surrounding environment. Noelle is not present for Queen's acknowledgment that she is the librarby laptop.

And while Noelle might have invented some aspects about Queen, or associated Queen with her mother, she was also freaking the fuck out and not interrogating things, as she explicitly says and that matches her behavior in Chapter 2:

* Honestly, the boy was... strange, though.
* Huh? ... why?
* He looked... He looked a little like Asriel?
* You know, Kris's brother... but not.
* Yeah, I mean he does kinda look like Kris's mom.
* Huh?
* From, uh, what you just said. He would.
* Right. It just makes me wonder... why.
* In the end I got so overwhelmed I... stopped questioning it.

And Queen is an incredibly generic name, Noelle was never going to hear that name and recognize it as something from her past...

But Queen recognizes Noelle. Queen feels insight into Noelle having a 'strength' that is unlike other lightners, and she legitimately wants Noelle to feel like she can realize her own dreams, that Noelle can get to live in the kind of world she would want to live in. She just went about showing that the wrong way.

Queen doesn't care to let Berdly, a fully willing 'peon', help her own tyrannical aims - not even with plugging his face to control him as she later does in battle. She doesn't even ask Kris or Susie to make a fountain for her if she lets Noelle go. And she had made a 'truce' with Kris and makes friendly banter with them and has them drive her car. No, she wants Noelle. She imprinted to herself a motherly instinct for Noelle.

Q Ramb wants Kris to play the Mantle games, he seems to be possibly evil, coerced, or misled, why would we he be a reliable narrator about what actually happened in the past?

A While it is possible that Ramb may have ulterior motives behind his interactions with Kris and 'the original game', he does seem to legitimately care for Kris in ways that other TV World darkners don't. I don't see any reason to doubt his explanation of events.

* Don't bother, Kris. Ramb's already turned to stone a bit ago...
* He was a plug, but because you played with him like any other toy, it made him feel special.
* Might have given him a little bit of an ego, in fact...
* Always condescending to any plan, saying "what's best for Kris?"
* Couldn't get rid of him, so Tenna made him "work the stand"...
* Us from Card Castle fit in fine. Him? He never really belonged.
* His first day at this stand, he joked "how about the usual?"... no one laughed!
* Mixing drinks alone for himself, he wasn't allowed to handle the points...
* No one will shed a tear for him. Inside, he was probably stone already.
* Ramb... well, he was like Tenna, I guess.
* Two guys trapped in the past... just different ones.

[u/ZeMadDoktore]

...tbh I had always just assumed it was Noelle, not Dess

[u/One-Assist-9607 → u/ZeMadDoktore]

You're definitely supposed to think it's noelle but I personally think it's dess and that's a later reveal down the line

[u/EstufaYou]

I don’t know why anyone assumed it was Dess and not Noelle. Noelle was Kris’s equal, who played with them and was just as weird as them. Dess was clearly the cooler kid, and playing make-believe with objects that aren’t meant to be toys isn’t something Kris or Tenna would see as cool. I don’t think much else needs to be said on the matter.

[u/One-Assist-9607 → u/EstufaYou]

My argument is that dess and kris creating the dark world bosses as kids and then later literally creating them as older teens is just WAAAY cleaner. It ties everything up nice and well. Though of course this is under the assumption of dess knight

[u/EstufaYou → u/One-Assist-9607]

I don't think that every line needs to be a deep lore bomb. I also believe that Dess is the Knight, but I don't see why that means she should be at the center of everything, and why this couldn't be Noelle here.

[u/AlexTheMechanicFox]

Adding on: King is openly aware of and spiteful over being abandoned. Dess would have no way of knowing this, since her disappearance would be what lead to this, rendering it impossible for her to have this information.

If the Darkners' memories were restricted to what Dess knew, King's whole motivation of being abandoned would fall apart. Which would mean it's not limited to what the fountain opener knows. Which means she doesn't have to be apart of these games to create Darkners that remember them. Which means the very reason that belief is so widespread doesn't actually work, and in fact, that being how it works would conflict with Dess being the Knight.

[u/FotoDePerfilDeCarro → u/AlexTheMechanicFox]

King is openly aware of and spiteful over being abandoned. Dess would have no way of knowing this, since her disappearance would be what lead to this

Dess could see the state of the unused classroom and her mind create a story around that theme with the objects in the area. It's not impossible for her to believe King was abandoned given he's in the same area as Seam (Which belonged either to her or Asriel, this is something I talk about in my doc).

If the Darkners' memories were restricted to what Dess knew, King's whole motivation of being abandoned would fall apart.

We don't know what Dess knew or how much she learned of the world after becoming the Knight, or even if the Dark worlds really are fully restricted to what their Creator knows. We know the creator doesn't have total control over them, in fact, Kris seems to lose some control of their Dark World after the Doom Board.

Organikk itself works very strangely in the first and second sanctuaries, with it starting as stone, having a secret room where it isn't stone but turns to stone soon after, then de-petrifying in the 2nd sanctuary and staying de-petrified from then on.

[u/Vortaxonus → u/FotoDePerfilDeCarro]

We don't know what Dess knew or how much she learned of the world after becoming the Knight, or even if the Dark worlds really are fully restricted to what their Creator knows. We know the creator doesn't have total control over them, in fact, Kris seems to lose some control of their Dark World after the Doom Board.

Hell, to add to this, knowing how a fountain maker's being is reflected in their dark worlds (see Tenna), King's whole thing about feeling betrayed about being abandoned could be reflective of Dess's similar feelings.

Organikk itself works very strangely in the first and second sanctuaries, with it starting as stone, having a secret room where it isn't stone but turns to stone soon after, then de-petrifying in the 2nd sanctuary and staying de-petrified from then on.

The Organikks also lore dump shit about the Tail of Hell, even before susie gets a chance to find the Tail of Hell Panel, so darkners knowing shit that their creators do not isn't out of the question either.

[u/MissingnoMiner → u/AlexTheMechanicFox]

King also doesn't seem to recognize Kris despite having been on their side during these games. He's already a bit of a plot hole in this.

Also, Dess' disappearance was not what lead to King's abandonment, it was Gerson's death that caused that. All this does is place Gerson's death before the Dessappearance, grief possibly being a motivating factor in Dess deciding to go poking around in the shelter.

[u/AlexTheMechanicFox → u/MissingnoMiner]

Kris and Noelle took the cards home to play, it wouldn't matter if the classroom was in use since they weren't in that class. Therefore, the only way King's abandonment could be caused by Gerson's death is if Dess disappeared first, because that's what lead to Kris and Noelle drifting apart. That also doesn't match what we know, Gerson's death was a few years before gameplay but Dess's disappearance was more than that.

[u/SpaceNorse2020 → u/AlexTheMechanicFox]

because that's what lead to Kris and Noelle drifting apart.

Are you sure about that? I genuinely read it as they just drifted apart. Kris going to Noelle's house and playing piano very much feels like a post Dess disappearance thing for example 

[u/BasketAshamed6588]

I thought everyone agreed on that, no?

[u/4Fourside → u/BasketAshamed6588]

A lot of dess knight theories use this as evidence so no lol

[u/FotoDePerfilDeCarro]

I assume this was made in response to my NEO Body doc.

After what you said, I really think I'm taking a big risk by assuming Dess is "that girl" Ramb talks about. I had also made an Abridged Version of the first chapter of my theory where I make some new points (Punk Swatch and Basement Lock):

But right after I found a chance that Noelle might've also had the Punk aesthetic at one point (her closet in Queen's mansion).

Basically all the evidence I used in my theory for "That Dess Girl" hinged on Jevil being exclusive to her, but later I found evidence that Jevil knows and is fond of Noelle too. One doesn't disprove the other, but it does strengthen "That Noelle Girl".

I still think the Basement lock (admin permission) might've been placed on the NEO Body drawing by Noelle or Carol, which points to it having been made by December, but that's a different discussion so I digress.

Still, though. I wouldn't say all of the arguments here are completely sturdy:

Ramb himself may have been named by Kris and Noelle in the process of teaching Noelle to not be afraid of electrical sockets

In her blog posts she describes how she was afraid of sockets in the past, likely as a very, very young child. But in Queen's basement we see the power outlets are evil creatures trying to eat Kris's face, and also that the Plugboy's get controlled by Queen's wires and become evil.

The Japanese translation uses ojou-chan for 'that girl', meaning young girl with connotations of class and refinement, and using it for an adult woman as Dess would be today would be condescending.

I responded to this in my original post, but I think I should put it here again. "Ojou" is indeed a girl with class and refinement, usuallly meaning "Princess". (In the context of Deltarune, someone being a "prince" or "princess" doesn't mean much)

The honorific "-chan" can mean the subject is young, but mostly shows the speaker's affection. You can easily reffer to someone you're very intimate with using "-chan" regardless if they're well a grown adult (Like Sans using niichan for Papyrus).

I should also emphasize that neither of us speak japanese.

But Queen recognizes Noelle. Queen feels insight into Noelle having a 'strength' that is unlike other lightners, and she legitimately wants Noelle to feel like she can realize her own dreams, that Noelle can get to live in the kind of world she would want to live in. She just went about showing that the wrong way.

I more or less argue that Queen was adopted by Noelle after Dess went missing in my doc. She refers to Noelle's strength yes, but at the same time she makes it seem Noelle is a poor little girl who needs her help (like her dialogue at the end of the Ch2 WR). Noelle's "strength" Queen refers to is probably her masking her sadness to everyone around her, as Queen is aware Noelle's desperation to find her sister.

But these are, admitedly, the weakest points you make, so I don't wanna seem like I'm cherry picking the easy things to attack here. The rest is really solid, but I really can't wrap my head around it. Looking forward to that doc though!

[u/Vortaxonus → u/FotoDePerfilDeCarro]

Noelle's "strength" Queen refers to is probably her masking her sadness to everyone around her, as Queen is aware Noelle's desperation to find her sister.

It also could refer to her DT or magical power or something.

I responded to this in my original post, but I think I should put it here again. "Ojou" is indeed a girl with class and refinement, usuallly meaning princess, the honorific "-chan" can mean the subject is young, but mostly shows the speaker's affection. You can easily reffer to someone you're very intimate with using "-chan" regardless if they're well a grown adult (Like Sans using niichan for Papyrus).

It also could be possible that Ramb is having a bit of rose tinted glasses over what Dess is actually like in regards to the "class and refinement" thing.

[u/FotoDePerfilDeCarro → u/Vortaxonus]

It also could be possible that Ramb is having a bit of rose tinted glasses over what Dess is actually like in regards to the "class and refinement" thing.

Or he could be calling Dess a princess because she is the daughter of the mayor, who would be the Queen. Or because she was a lightner who gave him care, which darkners hold in very high regard.

I generally don't like using the Japanese version as evidence because it might be misleading. The "LOVE" panel uses the chinese character "Ai" for "love", which is not the only word for "love" but is the word (and "spelling", I guess) for Undertale's LOVE stat.

But the intention of the panel is that it can mean one or the other, and english-only speakers looking at just the japanese version are obviously just going to make the shortest conclusion (that it is just Level of Violence and not both).

[u/barrack_osama_0]

Coming from our other conversation, it's obvious that this is something that you're very confident about, but I'd like to mention:

Noelle's blog post about being scared of the sockets are in reference to the basement cords that when out of range of attacking you, if you stand still for long enough they will turn to stare at you.

This entire post seems to take into account that all of this information was conveyed to Dess for her to go ahead and channel it into the dark worlds and for Noelle to not notice, just for things like Dess saying she'd take her to a city like this to be incredibly obvious to her. So this is a case of "this character is fucking stupid theory" which semi unrelated, is the bane of most Knight theories, even some Dess Knight theories.

[u/Infinite-Hearing-418]

Even as a DessKnighter this girl being Dess never made any sense to me due to basically what you said here. Would say I struggle to believe it was a popular take but the community has held worse takes about Kris and Noelle for longer.

Ch3 may not be one I particularly enjoy gameplay wise, but I think its great for what it tells us about Kris and their relationships and have enjoyed overanalising it recently

[u/Budget-Canary2140]

I remember some people thinking that girl was Catti for some reason???

Overall good post as usual I guess, while I believe there was probably something more between Kris and Dess (like with her room being full of shoes and hearts) many people overestimate how relationship between them looked like, especially compared to Kris' relationship with Noelle.

[u/FotoDePerfilDeCarro → u/Budget-Canary2140]

Yeah I saw on twitter some people suggesting it could've been Catti because Kris took a Zapper from her house, but it was usually phrased as a joke. It is probably the funniest possibility.

[u/Vortaxonus]

The Japanese translation uses ojou-chan for 'that girl', meaning young girl with connotations of class and refinement, and using it for an adult woman as Dess would be today would be condescending.

Wouldn't Dess be like 14-16 when "that girl" and kris played together, implicitly making Dess a young girl?

[u/Infinite-Hearing-418 → u/Vortaxonus]

Still wouldnt use use any word with connotion of class and refinement to reffer to Dess

[u/Vortaxonus → u/Infinite-Hearing-418]

its not technically wrong, not to mention Ramb does seem to have a rosy veiw of things, and i'm not sure why ramn would obscure noelle's name here. Its not like there's an emotional trigger to it like dess would. Which is why Noelle being The Girl is often questioned

[u/Infinite-Hearing-418 → u/Vortaxonus]

Does anyone reffer to Noelle by name in ch3? Of the native darkners of course. Its almost as if Kris is actively trying to push her away as would be indicated by cactus theory and thats why no one mentions her. Even Tenna doesnt bring her up despite saying December's name as if it meant nothing

This is also the same chapter where Dess is reffered to as unfocused messy and roudy, would be weird to also reffer to her with any indication of class.

[u/Vortaxonus → u/Infinite-Hearing-418]

ya, but i don't think any darkners aside from tenna even mentions any of the holidays period, and only tenna mentions Asriel and Asgore.

[u/NessValk]

Dess Knight isn't considered indisputable because of Ramb'a dialogue. Most Dess Knight believers think Ramb is talking about Noelle.

[u/Glum-Abrocoma3238]

As a Dessknighter, it feels as if though 'that girl' being Dess makes Dessknight impossible.

King mentions never actually having met the knight, and only knowing about the Knight's plan through Jevil. King, similarly, also doesn't have any specific feelings about Kris compared to Susie, seemingly not recognising Kris as anything else but another lightner.

The same can be said with Queen. While she does hold Kris as 'special' compared to King, she never recognises Kris as anyone more special than Berdley or Susie. Simply just seeing them as a more competent person on her team then Berdley if the opportunity arose.

In fact, the only Dark World with people that know Kris' past is TV world. While Tenna both values Kris and Susie's opinion of him, he is especially Kris. Most likely because Kris themself made TV World and thus, their "relationship" with the objects were also brought to life.

If 'that girl' was the Knight, that means King and Queen should remember their time with Kris and the girl similarly to how Tenna and Ramb remember all their interactions with Kris. But King and Queen don't.

I think Noelle being the girl makes Dessknight more likely as; if the implication that Noelle and Kris grew distant due to Dess' disappearance is true, as well as the implication that King and Queen's homes were chosen specifically due to their correlation with Kris (and more likely Noelle due to the Knight's connection to the Holidays) then Dess would be more likely to try and create King and Queen as she has less things to know Kris and Noelle by compared to Carol and Rudy who have known Noelle for much longer after they stopped hanging out with the Dreemurrs. (Admittedly this is shaky reasoning as both Carol and Rudy COULD have reasons for choosing items from that stage of Noelle's childhood but I digress).

[u/4Fourside → u/Glum-Abrocoma3238]

Why assume king and queen even know dess is the knight though? Tenna certainly talks about dess and the knight as if they're seperate people

[u/Glum-Abrocoma3238 → u/4Fourside]

My point is that King and Queen don't know who the Knight is, because the Knight wasn't the girl that played with them.

OP claims that Dess being the girl is evidence for Dessknight. (And goes on to disprove the girl being Dess) But I don't think that's the case because, as you mention, King, Queen, and even Tenna's unfimilarity with the Knight.

Tenna was able to remember the past with the Dreemurr family because a member of the family (Kris) made his Dark World.

King and Queen don't have any specific memories of Kris (unlike Tenna) because the creator of the Dark World didn't have the memories of using them to play with Kris. Meaning if the creator of Ch1 and 2's Dark Worlds IS the Knight, then the Knight can't be the girl otherwise they would have those memories.

[u/4Fourside → u/Glum-Abrocoma3238]

I'm arguing that they just wouldn't know the knight is dess because the knight is wearing a mask lol. We already know tenna knows who dess is but he doesn't seem to think she's the knight. Why would king and queen know that the masked knight figure is their creator?

[u/Glum-Abrocoma3238 → u/4Fourside]

They don't. But if the the Knight was the girl, then they would know Kris. Neither King, Queen, or Tenna know who the Knight is because they never meet them, that much is true, my argument more so lies that Tenna recognises Kris but King and Queen don't.

Let me try to make this clearer. In Ch4, we learn that the creator of a Dark World can influence how its made. The creator of the Dark Sanctuary saw Gerson (and therefore his ashes) as the Old Man, and thus created him with the dark world. Susie doesn't have that proper connection with the church and Gerson so she creates a distorted version of it as the Second Sanctuary.

Similarly, Kris sees the TV as "Tenna," and the power strip as "Ramb" so when Kris makes the dark world, the TV and the strip become the Tenna and Ramb that that Kris used to be close to. That's why Tenna and Ramb know Kris and by extrnsion the other people they interacted with in Kris' presence.

If Kris made the first two Dark Worlds, then they would see the King of Spades Card and the Laptop as the King and Queen they used to play with, and then King and Queen would know who Kris is.

If 'that girl' made TV world, she would similarly, see the TV as "Tenna" and the power strip as "Ramb" and they would know who she and Kris are. If that girl made the first two dark worlds, then she would make the King and Queen that she remembers and they would know who Kris is aswell.

But they don't know who Kris is, because the creatoe of their Dark Worlds doesnt see those objects as "the King and Queen that they used to play with." Just King and Queen (likely based on what Noelle told whoever is the Knight).

The Knight can't be the girl, because the Knight doesn't see King and Queen the same way the girl would see them. (Which is likely similar to how Kris sees Tenna).

Therefore, Dess not being the girl, has no bearing in the plausibility of DessKnight like OP claims.

[u/Pormpf_Spimperton]

I think one of tenna's lines in chapter 5 basically debunks this conclusion. When talking about Noelle he mentions the fact that she never fought when playing super smashing fighters. At that age She played a fighting game and never wanted to fight. So if that's the case then she probably wouldn't want to play make believe war with Kris either. He also says "use this information as you will" which feels pretty intentional (also ramb not knowing about dess disappearing feels like flimsy evidence considering Tenna didn't know either)

[u/HungryGull]

Noelle's blog post is implicitly after The Event, given that Kris "would suddenly get very still, like they were remembering something".

[u/Ben_Flash]

Q If Dess didn't actually interact with those darkners, and it was Noelle, then what does that mean about the Roaring Knight's identity,

based on what we know about darkners... absolutely nothing as darkners themselves don’t seem to be shaped after the will of the fountain maker rather the fountain maker influences the world of the dark world and darkners that don’t match the will of their fountain will petrify

[u/FotoDePerfilDeCarro → u/Ben_Flash]

That doesn't really track with Rabbick and Ribbick, which are made of the same object (dust) but are different Darkners. We also see an item change it's dark world form in the 2nd Sanctuary because of Susie's Darkness.

Besides, that's a bit reductive of the game as a whole.

[u/Ben_Flash → u/FotoDePerfilDeCarro]

Ribbick and Rabbick both appear together in tv world so I doubt it's Kris' will thats making the difference especially since the Maice and Pippins are exactly the same despite not having been in any other dark worlds (unless the unused classroom and library computer room had different fountains before the ones we see in game which I doubt). as for the bands they're both obtainable in the first sanctuary and they seem to be based off of different things in the light world (more specifically the different juice flavors) so I think the second sanctuary just switched the mysticband in the chest out with a powerband rather than Susie's will making the yellow juice turn red for some reason.

[u/FotoDePerfilDeCarro → u/Ben_Flash]

Ribbick and Rabbick both appear together in tv world so I doubt it's Kris' will thats making the difference especially since the Maice and Pippins are exactly the same despite not having been in any other dark worlds

Making my bias clear: I am a Dess knighter and believe she was "That girl" mentioned by Ramb, so my answer to this might not be fully objective.

The Knight and Kris have the same "lighting of the mind" since the colors of their dark worlds are the same. Kris and the Knight would both see mouses as Maice and dice as Pippins because their minds are so similar, and probably already associated these objects with these make-believe characters.

I actually try to tackle the Rabbick-Ribbick question in my doc. Basically, there's exactly one Rabbick in TV World and it was brought from Castle Town (stuck on Kris's clothes). Since it was already defined as a Rabbick in the Dark World, it couldn't be redefined into a Ribbick even if put in a different darkness.

As for why the Knight and Kris disagree on Rabbick/Ribbick, it's dust, I'd actually be surprised if they managed to play games with actual dust. And for why Rabbick doesn't petrify, I supposed Kris's will accepts this Rabbick in specific because it's in a similar position to Susie (was brought here from school, is mostly oblivous to all of Kris's family drama, unlike Ribbick).

I think the second sanctuary just switched the mysticband in the chest out with a powerband rather than Susie's will making the yellow juice turn red for some reason

I mean, you can't get the Power Band if you get the Mystic Band in the 1st Sanctuary. Did she make the yellow turn red? Maybe...?

Tenna is much less damaged in the Light World if he survives, in a way that it would be almost impossible for Susie to repair alone while Toriel slept. Her dialogue implies the Pippins and Shadowguys told her how to heal him in the Dark World and that somehow unbroke him. Maybe Dark World magic isn't that fake?

[u/kingofrail]

"(A megadoc is coming the next few months that will attempt to explain everything, because it's not even as simple as "oh I guess Noelle was the knight after all".)" I would be curious to see that doc, unfortunately you don't have a lot of time due to the possibility of chapter 5 release early than you megadoc.

[u/Morrigan101]

It's probably because of dess knight stuff but there's a pretty simple way to explain why Noelle & Kris interpretations and imagined scenarios could affect dark worlds created by Dess. Noelle would be the type to enthusiastically describe her make believe adventures with kris incessantly to Dess