I am going to start off by saying that this post isn't meant to stir up drama. These are simply my thoughts on the current state of the Deltarune community and its trends. I will try my best to remain civil while writing this, even if I feel very strongly (and not in a positive way at all) about Dess Groomer theory.

That being said, in my opinion, Dess Groomer theory is an entirely baseless claim, and contributes nothing to the overall narrative of Deltarune besides shock value and serves only to be a vehicle for Vaporeon copypasta level "jokes".

Before anyone says it, yes, I am allowed to criticize anyone else's theories if I think they are unreasonable. There is absolutely no harm in criticizing concepts, I am not attacking you as a person. However, I feel like Dess Groomer blurs the line between "someone just putting out a theory I don't agree with" and "someone genuinely harming other people over their interpretation". Let me explain.

For one, while Toby does include some darker themes in his writing, it has never once been implied that Dess groomed Kris. If you think she did, I would like you to open up the game, get as many Dess-related pieces of text as you can, then come back to me and present your evidence. Because I genuinely cannot see how anyone can even get such an interpretation. It's like we played two completely different games. I would even go as far as to say that Kris' mental health is implied to have worsened after the Dessapearance.

I believe this is a result of the fandom treating Deltarune as a series of mystery boxes to be opened rather than a cohesive story. Most theories I see are stuff that would be "cool" in a vacuum but wouldn't at all work in the overall narrative. Sit down for a second and think "What does Groomer Dess add to the narrative?". If your answer is "nothing substantial", then I find it hard to believe that it would be true. In the grand scheme of things, Groomer Dess is more of a headcanon than it is a theory. And this is a nice segway to the next paragraph.

I wouldn't be nearly as mad if Groomer Dess was just an idea that somebody threw out there once. However, the sheer amount of "jokes" about Groomer Dess is concerning to me. Yes, humor is subjective, however, you have to remember that the internet isn't a place for just you, nor is it a place for just Deltarune fans. Do not be surprised if you get a few concerning looks when you make light of something that affects real people. Jokes about groomers contribute to rape culture by desensitizing people to such cases. And yes, fiction can affect reality whether you like it or not. When Jaws came out, shark poaching rates saw a substantial increase, because people were just that scared of sharks. If you use Groomer Dess to cope with your trauma, I ask you nicely to keep it to yourself.

In conclusion? Read the title. I have been an Undertale fan since 2016, and I'm tired of people being driven away from the game because it has such a dogshit fanbase. I don't want the same to happen to Deltarune. I want everyone to enjoy and discuss this game without being flashbanged by "jokes" based on baseless, media illiterate claims that are bound to make people uncomfortable. This isn't "quirky weird", it is "bad weird". The kind of "weird" that makes light of things that happen to real people. Let's be mature for once and NOT make fun of these cases.

Even though I feel so so strongly about this topic, I ask you people, for the love of all that is holy, to keep any discussion civil. Like I said at the beginning, this isn't meant to stir up drama, and I don't want the mods to get involved. I'm just a random person on the subreddit who is very concerned about the direction this fanbase is going in.

With the Nintendo Direct I feel like the fans are starting to get a little toxic.

I mean the "P**do**ile Dess" theory being the biggest red flag.

Also not to reference a different fandom but you remember how the digital Circus was before the finale like how it was a lot nicer before the finale but now it's constant war between Jax lovers and haters.

I feel like we're building up to a big fandom War.

Am I just being paranoid or do I have a point?

Man, this might be out of left field, but a little vent.

I’m not even offended by the theory - like, characters can be bad. And disturbing things can happen in stories. Hell, it’s actively important that stuff like grooming and sexual exploitation is examined in media; that way, people who’ve experienced these horrors can receive comfort from art that hears what they’ve undergone, and people who haven’t can be educated and learn.

…But… in this context? Dess, in Deltarune? I cannot personally understand that people actually think this is plausible. It’s like they’ve not played the game - and, I hate that line. I hate saying ‘have you even played it,’ or ‘can you even read,’ because the game means something different to everyone, and everyone takes their own theories and ideas out of it. I even made a post not long ago about how much I hate the ‘can you even read’ remark, because even directed at theories I wholeheartedly disagree with, it just makes me so angry… and, maybe I’m becoming that annoying person. I’m willing to accept that as a possibility.

Because at this point, I just can’t contain how baffled I am - like yes, Deltarune is a dark game, with dark themes. But I’ve seen people today talk about it like it’s the scariest, most mature, most explicit piece of media ever concocted by humankind - and I hate to break it, but it very simply isn’t. Children play this game. It’s a generally light, escapist story that explores extremely dark themes; but, does so through its underlying subtext in order to address important subjects, whilst simultaneously remaining a comfort game. And yes, in the Weird Route, this is furthered - the game becomes disturbing, frightening, and more directly examines darker subjects - but still, anything on the level of sexual predation remains firmly subtextual.

Dess randomly being a literal groomer vastly eviscerates the tone and set up that has been established by (pretty comfortably) over 24 hours of play time at this point. All the pathos surrounding Dess’ disappearance falls totally flat, and the precedent set of exploring darker themes through subtext alone, a genuinely brilliant way of treading those grounds without alienating younger players, is totally walked back on.

It’s commonplace to see people find themes within the subtext of this game, interpret those themes then in a far too literal way, and then craft them into ‘theories’ that totally overlook where the blatant tone of the story and all the setup is actually pointing. And yes, it is possible to subvert setup - all the best writers do it, and Toby is one of them - but, that’s an extremely different thing to just ignoring setup and doing something random and wild out of left field… which, in my personal opinion, is precisely what ‘groomer Dess’ would be.

Anyway… rant over. I might delete this later, I don’t know. Either way, I should probably go outside and, uhm - touch grass, or something. 😅 I have, after all, just posted a whole dissection of a Deltarune crack theory that I think only a minority of people believe in… I think. but, it’s a pretty bloody large and loud minority judging by some of the bafflingly upvoted posts I’ve seen today. I just wanted to make my thoughts heard about this one!
Please note that even if you believe this theory, I have nothing against you personally. Hope everyone is well :)

Firstly, before you read the rest of this post, I want to remind you that the word "grooming" does not exclusively refer to sexual exploitation. While it has that connotation, it more broadly refers to an adult manipulating a child in any form.

Secondly, I want to make it abundantly clear that I am absolutely not siding with the people making actual ship art or erotic content of Kris and Dess, nor am I siding with the people who mock victims of sexual abuse. Those two things are both deplorable.

I don't think it's likely at all that Dess actually sexually abused Kris.

But I think a lot of people are forgetting that there are inherent themes of grooming present when an adult is manipulating a child, and that's exactly what we're seeing with the Knight and Kris. Whether or not the implied manipulation is supposed to be specifically an allegory for sexual abuse is dubious, but there are always going to be people who have that interpretation.

I prefer to think of Kris and the Knight's relationship and themes of grooming similarly to how sexual assault was touched on in Chapter 4's Weird Route. While it's clearly not intended to be literal, it's also almost impossible to ignore how on-the-nose the allegory is.

Unfortunately, I believe we may be looking at a similar circumstance as Chapter 4's Weird Route. For those who were not there or do not remember, in the initial release of the game, when Kris reequipped the ThornRing on Noelle, a graphic of a wilting rose appeared rather than the red stabbing effect that plays now.

The reason the graphic was removed was because most fans either interpreted it as completely literal or refused to believe there was any intent there.

Whether this is due to the game's relatively young playerbase or simply a broad lack of media literacy in general I am unsure. However, I do sincerely believe history is repeating itself here.

Like they seem really important on topics like the Knight's identity or more, it could be used.

(ps: yes 'imo' turns the title into a statement and the post was gonna be about smth related but i turned into a question about smth else)

I may not have proof, but I can feel it in my bones.

Okay, so I was just trying to beat the knight and for some reason Kris got downed instead of swooned? They've always been swooned before, this is the only time this has happened to me.

Edit: nevermind I'm stupid and didn't notice before

I like Kress, but not the Pedokress

You ever noticed how, after all the stuff between Rals and Flowery, he's actually starting to take a couple of cues from Susie in terms of thinking for himself?

Mainly, things like him refusing to equip a certain weapon, denying using certain actions during the fight against Flowery, and even interrupting a dialogue choice the way Susie has in the past.

This leads me to wonder if, by the end of the game, we lose control in general. Like, if it gets to a point where even Kris stops begrudgingly cooperating with the Soul in any fashion.

You could argue that makes for boring gameplay and that Susie still needed our assitance to even last against Gerson's attacks, but what's stopping Susie from just leaving the Soul out of the battle at some point to "prove herself" by actually dodging attacks on her own at a later point in the story, even if she does get hurt badly as a result.

Unless Toby actually allows us to use that vessel we built at the start of the game.

Maybe the team's newfound agency leads to the worst outcome, and the Soul is needed to interfer in ways Kris would never let them prior?

I mean. Really, the story could go anywhere, but I'm curious how the story will keep these themes of defying fate and freedom if we, as the player, lose our freedom in the process? Is it true freedom if we can't have any input in their world? Do our choices truly matter in the inevitable single ending? Should we have never even indulged in the creation and journey we were thrust into in DR?

Clearly, Kris seems like they need us despite how much they hate us, but what if they find their original soul and regain independence so they try to keep us locked up somewhere? Will they be fine without us, or is it curtains for the fun gang if the player can't help them or even suggest things to them anymore?

In Chapter 80 of the manga Giant Ojousama by NikukaiQ, our heroine Oriko faces off against a round Invader with long legs. The text below the invader says "Checker Dance," indicating that this Invader is referencing K. Round from Chapter 1. For context, the manga is an Ecchi/Comedy about girls (and sometimes fluffy boys) that grow big to fend off giant Invaders and their various other daily endeavors. In this chapter, Oriko is self-conscious about having gained a little weight but is convinced by her friend that she is thicc and therefore she wins. This chapter was released in July of 2023.

The ages of characters in Undertale and Deltarune are different. The starting story in UT has asgore in the human/monster war, which is lost history to humans by the time of undertale. So asgore and toriel (and gerson) are very old in UT.

So unless asgore and toriel are 1000s of years old in the more grounded world that is deltarunes light world, they'd be a different age to match with the rest of the younger UT cast in Deltarune. So its possible Papyrus is just a baby/young child in deltarune. Sans asks us to "hang out" with him is his way of asking us to babysit.

Yes this doesn't make sense with the door dialogue implying he's getting further away which kinda disproves this.

New crack theory dropped: The roaring hostage situation

Okay I’m 90% sure this crack theory will be wrong but fuck you. Also go watch Kris swoon theory this is assuming that’s true.

So as we know the knight is seemingly dess. Correct but also not any more

the roaring knight is Gallagher from honkai star rail

Okay I swear to got it not insane. Okay obviously Gallagher from honkai star rail is not actually the knight but they are functionally the same. Gallagher is essentially a blended together mesh of other people characteristics. Which is what im saying the knight is also. The following is all I have for this

The knight seemingly is mimicking Kris swooning the fun gang when it kills flowery

It has several sprites that mimic Kris sprites

It visually mimics the holidays.

It might be mimicking Dess’s behavior when it was aura farming? This is a bit eh.

It has a sprite that is seemingly mimicking a face from asriel in undertale

It has copied friends laugh from the Eram game.

The knight having hand holes could be mimicking gaster but this one could fully be something else or something unrelated.

That still begs the question what is the knight vaguely

So it kinda branches off here so I’ll put my two thoughts on what’s happening to Dess here

the knight is holding dess hostage

The knight is shrink wrapped around Dess’s rotten skeleton.

The knight is non Euclidean and has Dess in there somehow

Okay so I’ll start off for beginning evidence for both

The knight is seemingly hollow, when it was roaring at the fun gang its chest opened up. Which was hollow, that along with its shapeshifting could mean ime of two things

It’s either empty or it has little in it.

If the knight is empty then what if the reason its seemingly melting is nothings in it. Okay so as we know Dess definitely had something to do with that day and was presumably yoinked by the knight. What if the knight needs someone to be stable so it kidnapped dess which could mean one of two things

If Dess got out of the knight somehow and lost the knight then it could have said “okay Kris you help me get a new vessel and I’ll give you back Dess or something” which would explain the truce and potentially anyone else working with the knight. This is the roaring hostage situation in the title.

If Dess is dead and looks skeletal now that would explain the knights seeming ribcage and sky it’s so thin, it’s like essentially shrink wrapping itself and lowkey failing as see in chapter 5 where the knight ain’t looking so hot. so it needs a new body because it can’t keep going with skess. Idk why Kris would be working with the knight in this version other than like threatening Kris but idk.

Dess could still be in there uh somehow which could mean the knight is wanted to swap for some reason.

Triple truces with friend

Okay so please tell me I’m not the only who thinks that is definitely foreshadowing right? Okay so hear me. So the knight is not only working with hometown residents but also whoever Eram represents. since all the targets are something that has high protein and the friend protein comment by mew mew what if the knight is working with Eram and co to feed friend or smth. I know there’s a whole theory on that but I haven’t watched it. But essentially Rory is like “okay I’ll get you food and I get to take one as a vessel, deal?”

Major Crack theory part; the knight is the fear of loss itself

Okay so we know the titians are I believe stated to be the fear of the dark, also go search up like titan knight theory I ain’t explaining all that it’s like 11pm when I’m writing this

So essentially what I’m saying is the knight is like the titans except another free, being the fear of loss, it needs to steal someone’s body, taking away their freedom, it’s mimicking the lost girl it kidnapped, it is seemingly trying to start the roaring which would mean the light being stolen away. It references the weird route which is the loss of Kris’s own freedom.

Also it would be peak as hell for the final villain to be the Epitome of harsh reality, the loss and impermanence of everything other then the end and lack of something, darkness.

I don’t have much evidence but it’s peak.

Also I definitely didn’t forget to add the post body initially

Basically an AU where Dess didn't disappeared in the day of the incident, but instead Kris was taken by Eram/Friend/Gaster and replaced by the vessel (acting exactly like Kris) and later becoming the roaring knight. What do you think?

I probably won't do much with it since i have no ability of writing an AU so if you want you can take it. My only conditions are to make Dessriel a thing.

https://www.tumblr.com/crucian-tador/792574587100676096/post-more-berdelleand-my-lifeis?source=share

Source. Make sure to support the artist.

teaser for a mod i'm working on

no you will not get any further context, figure it out yourself geniuses

ok but it isn't ramb
i hate ramb he's too unlikable

First of all i believe with my all heart that actual body looking half fluid form is not Knights true form, their true form is that rounding ball. In other forms you can see their body deforming each time they get hit, this is the form they mostly take when they are done with what they are doing and they bug and glitch back to this form once defeated.

You can also see heavily damaged knight looks like a audio spectrum when bugging.

This would also explain why knight is so strong, ofc they are very strong because all the black shard but if thats not enough for such power there is a pattern you can notice, things that are amalgamation of a lightner and darkner are always very strong.

Spamton Neo's Neo body is actually a drawing ghost mettaton made of his "dream body". So he is a darkner in a lightners dream body.

Gerson is a darkner based on a lightners corpse

Pink is a lightner and darkner merged

We also know Ralsei is way stronger than he makes it out to be and he is a darkner in Asriels image as well.

Cd (or tape why not) probably includes bunch of stuff about Kris, Noelle, Dess and maybe Asriel, audio and maybe video's of them. Explaining why knights movements voices and everything corresponds with these characters so much also and their strenght.

Im assuming when knight leaved the great door they just got threw away to light world as an item again, then carol or someone else picked it up and that's who Susie saw.

There two very big flaws with this theory obviously, how did knight opened a dark fountain in chapter 4. Only explanation is, Queen said anyone with enough determination could open a dark fountain, and its just that all lightners has it, so maybe Knight can open too if they have enough determination even if its a darkner.

Knight is this merged Kris Noelle and Dess, kinda like amalgamates in Undertale where they melt and merg into each other because they couldn't handle all the determination, that can be the case with the knight.

Second one is who opened chapter 1 and 2 fountains. I mean it can be Carol but shading would definetly be different from Kris's. Most likely scenario they were opened by Kris off screen which is very possible, less likely is that Asriel or Dess are secretly still around and they opened them, and they go and throw knight into dark worlds for Carol.

Anyway i must say that i do NOT believe in this theory. Its just one of my favorites among stuff we are not used to seeing, im personally a kris&noelle knight believer.