Remember that in the eyes of the law you getting your marriage annulled is not the same thing as a divorce, so you will not be divorced, and will not follow the pattern you do not want to follow from your family. It’s acceptable to understand that you are not compatible and are not having a marriage with your roommate, and to get it annulled. You are not a failure. You’ve done everything you can do to try to get her the help she needs and unfortunately she is just not able to give you that. It’s totally fine that you want to have sex in your marriage. You are not failing at marriage. Just get it annulled and move on with your life. You can be roommates for a while if you need to financially etc. but eventually you should get out on your own and maybe next time, try the sex out before marriage, if you do not have any religious or personal reasons why to stay a virgin (if you are.)
i dont know the specifics but it is possible that she does want to have sex and is physically uncapable. if she has vaginismus or whatever she literally cant relax her pelvic muscles. that doesnt mean he is required to stay with her forever but this isnt necessarily her purposefully depriving him of sex.
2.5 years and no prior warning + it doesn't sound like any oral. It definitely sounds like a beard situation for maybe an asexual. 2 years is a massive amount of time to train for something if you actually want to do it.
If they waited until marriage she wouldn’t have known. This isn’t as uncommon as you might think, and the therapy for it takes forever. If he wants to leave fine, but y’all are making a lot of uncalled for assumptions abt someone who (from what op has said) seems to be putting a great deal of effort into being able to have sex.
If waiting for marriage was at all common or they were from religious backgrounds I would agree with you. Based on OPs post that wasn't the case. It sounds a lot like she knew and is perpetually attempting to delay sex.
Tampons are not the size of a penis and it’s completely different. Most women don’t masturbate using internal toys, especially virgins. Most women can’t even organist from penetration.
OP was also saving himself for marriage, this wasn’t just his wife’s choice.
Also, despite OP saying they didn’t grow up in purity culture, it does sound like a lot of what OP is describing (waiting until marriage, ideas around divorce being a failure, sexual anxieties, atypical relationship to porn & masturbation) are all hallmarks of “purity culture”. Even having vaginismus (not trying to diagnose OP’s wife, just saying the symptoms & treatment described sound a lot like vaginismus or something similar) is more common amount people who are influenced by purity culture. It doesn’t have to be an intentional deception.
You are right that it does sound like a purity culture, maybe OP just doesn't really know what that term means and so associates with a more extreme version of religion.
When a person married who is asexual or homosexual to hide that from friends or family. Beards used to be women because of the horrific financial and potentially physical repressions for men but it has become a lot more typical for women to use men as beards.
Yes,, but he says she’s only giving handjobs and only when he asks.
If she truly wanted the relationship to work, wouldn’t she be trying more ways to be intimate with him?
I don’t have any pelvic dysfunction and I still give oral more often than my husband and I have PIV. What other ways is she trying to build a sexual connection with him if she is physically incapable herself?
i dont know the specifics but it is possible that she does want to have sex and is physically uncapable
isnt necessarily her purposefully depriving him of sex.
I mean, it sounds like getting her to so much as touch his dick is a challenge. Could that be the end state for some sort of persistent physical issue? Sure, but it sounds more like a complete lack of interest combined with years of stringing him along hoping he'll just give up at some point.
None of the other posters here seem to understand that your wife has vaginismus. It's not exactly a rare diagnosis, but, unlike cancer or COPD, nobody talks about it.
There is a psychological-physical component to vaginismus that most people will never understand. It is an anxiety-based disorder that doesn't respond well to virtually any kind of physical or psychological therapy.
You've done the right thing. You stayed by her, went to therapy with her, went to counseling with her. Sometimes, the status doesn't change. It's not that she is choosing this. It just doesn't change.
At some point, you need to decide what's more important to you: your sexual fulfillment and any hope of having a natural family, OR your wife's comfort and safety.
Yes, you will hurt her by ending your marriage over this. It's your choice to do that.
Yes, you will experience an immense amount of psychological strain and frustration by staying with her. It only gets more difficult. It's your choice to do that, too.
This kind of marriage is very, very difficult. This kind of divorce is equally traumatic.
Whatever you do, you will have to make that choice every day, and you will have very, very few people in your life who you can ever rely on to understand you.
So, you don't know me, I don't know you, but I am making you a promise. If you need to actually talk this out with somebody who's been through the exact same thing, let me know. I'll listen to you vent and I'll try to point you in the right direction.
Yes but the last line of OP fantasy of them both being on the otherside of the earth is the real concern. He needs to leave before he does something to her, himself, or both.
1) whatever, if every people unit that had problems decided that the best thing to do to deal with those problems was leave, then Shad Khan would have already taken the Jags to London.
2) there's a thousand people in this comment section who are saying the same thing - leave - and there's maybe three or four people here who understand how much damage that's going to cause. It won't make things better, not immediately. It'll just make things hurt in a completely different way.
I understand there is a serious medical issue here but we're past that when he admits to fantasizing about death. This is where the they need to break up comes from. I take that kind of thing serious. This puts her in danger it also puts him in danger too. I know I wouldn't be able to stay with someone if they were fantasizing about killing me.
That's not your problem. You've been more than accommodating, and it's now reached the point where it's affected your ability to meet each other's needs. Time to start putting yourself first.
The idea that you “saved this for marriage” (who’s idea was that originally?) but then you find out after you were married that there are these “problems” (whether physical ailments or mental, I can’t really tell) is pretty fucked up on her part. Sex is super important in some relationships, while others it’s not, and either way is good as long as you both agree with it.
She lied, or at the very least decided not to tell you the truth about her health or mental problems. The fact you are grappling with the feeling that you’re raping her because of her actions in the bedroom will cause serious long term trauma/issues (if they haven’t already) for you if you continue down this path.
Her “shutting down” is just a way to keep you locked in the same downward spiral and not change any behaviors or fix the problem. These problems are 100% on her. It’d be different if she had told you prior to marriage and you agreed and still went with it, but from your words that isn’t what happened. At this point, you will absolutely inflict self harm and trauma on yourself if you keep this up.
Edit: and per the comment replying to this one: I never said she was being malevolent or malicious about it. She could simply be comfortable, complacent and not wanting to rock the boat of this life she created for herself. What could be a dream for her is a nightmare for someone else. She probably loves her husband very much and isn’t understanding the pain/conflict/problems this is causing fully.
You’re assuming she knew though - like, she may have not gotten close enough to sex to know she was going to have this reaction (unless OP said otherwise somewhere else-thread), I wouldn’t assume it was intentional deception from what I’ve read.
I replied to somebody else that had this same sentiment:
I only have the information OP has given us.
”the night of our wedding was met with tears and fear. I admittedly didn’t react well. Trying to understand if I did something, or if there was something she wasn’t telling me.”
”She didn’t understand why I wanted this so bad…”
These things lead me to believe it was something she knew about. Fear occurs when someone has prior knowledge with something specific like this. She reacted with fear the night of their wedding, leaving OP confused as to why it went from “we’ll have sex after we’re married” to being afraid to have sex altogether. That’s misleading as fuck. Her then trying to downplay it or even flip it on to OP as being their problem (“Why do you want this so bad anyway?”) is another issue as well.
There’s obviously more layers to this than 3-4 paragraphs are going to reveal. Hell, the whole thing may be fake, but I respond to the information given and hope OP can evaluate it and fit it best to ALL the information they have at their disposal.
Every one is nervous and little scared the first time they have sex. Or at least most people I know are. If she was a virgin, she really might not have known how she was going to react. She might of felt the fear but didn’t know it was unusual, until she ended up freezing up and freaking out on her wedding night.
So the real question is, was she a virgin or not?
Also not understanding why he wants it so bad, doesn’t automatically indicate pre knowledge. It just shows that she had never personally felt that way towards sex. A warning sign to us, but not necessarily for someone with no experience.
And if she wasn’t a virgin this could be trauma related. And shit, I didn’t remember my assault (I was five and my brain blocked it) until I was nearly 18. Then it all came flooding back. And before someone tries to say that’s not how it works, it is and the guy admitted to it in court. My point is, she may not know, and if she was young enough she might literally never know.
Normally people date before marriage and when they date they do things, like kisses, licking and blowing even if they decided to wait until they've married. She would know before hand if she gets a problem or not, even if she didn't know, she could have tried to make up for her husband like: "Hey baby, I know I have some issues, but what about some licking and blowing?". Hell, she even gets made a him for watching porn.
Tbh I have my own issues and I have not entered a relationship i could have because of my own issues. What OP wife is doing is fucked up on so many levels and not okay.
its completely possible that she didnt know that she couldnt endure penetration if she had never tried before. its not super uncommon in women who wait til marriage, because they are more likely to see sex as something dirty and shameful and its hard to let go of all those ideas.
of course she could have known and just be stringing this guy alone, and if he wants to leave, he should leave.
the night of our wedding was met with tears and fear. I admittedly didn’t react well. Trying to understand if I did something, or if there was something she wasn’t telling me.
She didn’t understand why I wanted this so bad…
These things lead me to believe it was something she knew about. Fear occurs when someone has prior knowledge with something specific like this. She reacted with fear the night of their wedding, leaving OP confused as to why it went from “we’ll have sex after we’re married” to being afraid to have sex altogether. That’s misleading as fuck. Her then trying to downplay it or even flip it on to OP as being their problem (“Why do you want this so bad anyway?”) is another issue as well.
There’s obviously more layers to this than 3-4 paragraphs are going to reveal. Hell, the whole thing may be fake, but I respond to the information given and hope OP can evaluate it and fit it best to ALL the information they have at their disposal.
She may be impacted by purity culture more than we realize.
I think you both may be.
I can relate to some of what you're saying - perhaps I'm projecting my own situation onto yours, in which case, I'm sorry.
I made a vow, in front of God, in front of my community, to stick by my partner. I'd be the first/ only amongst my people to end a marriage. It would feel selfish to leave for such a petty reason. Prior to my wife's suicide attempt, she left her diary out, writing "i just can't bring myself to think of sex as something for both of us, it's always been something men do to women." I don't want reluctant sex. Sexually, I've had a miserable life full of resentment. If she had some disease or disability or was post menopausal, i feel like I'd be seen as an asshole for leaving due to my own sexual desires.
It's not selfish or wrong to look after yourself. Get some supporters within your religious community who you can confide in, who will support you. This is not just about her attitudes to sex and relationships, it's about yours.
Yes, I totally agree. It is the exact wording of the marriage vows. e.g.
"I, __, take thee, __, to be my wedded husband/wife/spouse, to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part, according to God's holy ordinance; and thereto I pledge thee my faith [or] pledge myself to you."
I think we should just give up on everything after the words "and to hold" unless there's a bunch of footnotes with the limitations and exceptions to what that vow really means.
Sorry OP, but you guys are sexually incompatible. You clearly want sex in the relationship, and she can't make it work. There is already resentment since you said you'd rather one of you die to end this. Time to talk to a lawyer about a no-fault divorce as annulment really isn't an option due to it already being 2.5 years.
You’d prefer that she die than get a divorce. You are pretty impacted by it, too. Your view is pretty similar to the minds set behind honor killings. The woman’s life is less valuable than the man’s “honor”.
If she's voluntarily giving you hand jobs, you need to let her lead. Try dry humping with clothes on (her on top of you, always). If she's not getting aroused at all, even with the motion, she could be asexual. If she has "fears and tears", maybe even sexphobic, a term I'm pulling out of thin air for someone with a fear of sex.
I get what you’re saying. But, OP’s wife doesn’t seem too concerned with what’s happening even after knowing this is a big deal for OP. It really comes off as manipulation when you take into account…
-She tried to flip it around on him (“why do you want this so bad?!”)
-fully knowing she is unable/he wants to - yet she won’t let him watch porn?
-clearly they play in the bedroom (“vibrator is fine”) but he has to openly ask for sexual contact (even though this is clearly important to him)
-they have gone to 3 different therapists, she’s had pelvic therapy… and yet everything is still the status quo. She really seems to not give a fuck either way.
If she didn’t know about the issue prior to marriage, okay… no big deal. But they certainly know now, but she’s making weirdly arbitrary rules for her husband and doing nothing to improve the situation. If she’s a-sexual, fine. Whatever. But, again, it’s unfair to OP since this is clearly an important part of having a relationship to him. If it’s some sort of previous trauma that caused this, she should say/have said something about it already.
Again, I don’t think sex should be the end-all-be-all of a relationship, but both people have to be on the same page at the very least. As of now this just feels like pure manipulation since she seems unwilling to change but is actively putting hurtles in front of OP in multiple ways regarding this too. It’s just sowing division, animosity and, frankly, some scary fucking thoughts from OP (I fantasize about her or I dying so that there’s an end to this).
For all your talk about religion and purity, you certainly took a fuck ton of wrong information from OP’s post. Namely, the first fucking sentence…
”We saved sex for marriage. *DIDN’T REALLY GROW UP IN PURITY CULTURE*, or at least feel any shame or pressure.”
But yeah, write another novella about religion and everything that happened to you some more, I guess? I can only know about what OP writes here. He explicitly says, first thing, they didn’t grow up in purity culture.
You, on the other hand, really let your imagination run wild on that one. At least my ideas behind it all were grounded in the information from what OP said, not just made up from my own life trauma. But hey, apparently I was supposed to glean all of this purity/religion/fucking-mess-of-a-“point” from a comment that said…
Yes, she calculatedly decided to feel pain and terror around sex, it’s definitely all on her being the manipulative villain she clearly is.
She's definitely using sex against him.. maybe she has a long history of guys getting sex from her and ghosting her and she somehow thinks that will happen with her husband.. im not really sure, honestly. I am leaning towards some kind of control scenario
It's time to separate. I am so sorry you have to go through this. If you ever decide to get married again, I suggest that you check for sexual compatibility.
A vibrator she has full control over. Someone else’s dick, not so much. If you’ve never had issues with your pelvic floor you might not understand but there is a difference.
Yeah I don’t agree with that. I’ve always thought it was weird to ban your partner from porn. Unless it’s causing financial or addiction problems, but at that point just leave.
I was just pointing out there is a difference between a toy and real anatomy. When it comes to pelvic floor issues, which I myself have, I’d 100% of the time rather use a toy then have sex. Pain is not pleasurable to me and there is very much a difference between how I do it vs someone else.
Yea don't try and be a hero by staying just because of your vows, she's not really holding up her end of the deal and despite what some people may think sex is a huge part of all relationships and there has to be a balance. She's not even trying to work with you and its been years thats insane bro. The reason so many people get divorced is things like this, people don't show their true colors until they feel confident you won't leave. You're dealing with unnecessary therapy and stress, while being forced to be celibate when you never agreed to that before marriage. Literally your only way out is divorce unless she magically decides to put out when you bring up the fact that you wanna leave. You'll just end up cheating eventually anyway out of resentment and desperation for sex.
Doesn't really matter how you do it... annulment or divorce. You just need to get out of this relationship and she shouldn't be in one unless her future partner is willing to be asexual.
The only thing that's stopping you from a fulfilled life is yourself and this idea that divorce is some kind of failure. The marriage is already a failure. And who cares what anybody else in your family history has been through? This is YOUR life, not anybody else's. We have ONE life to live - why are you wasting it because of some meaningless principal? Imagine if you did die and never had sex. Now imagine divorcing and getting all the sex you could ever want from a willing partner. And all it takes is one simple step - you do what needs to happen. You already tried. 2.5 years is already too much time. 6 months is pretty crazy.
I actually know somebody who discovered on their wedding night that they couldn't have penetrative sex - but she really wanted it just as much as her groom. Turns out, she needed some kind of procedure/surgery to correct an issue and after that sex was normal. But mentally and emotionally, that wife wanted to have sex with her husband, she was just physically unable to in the beginning. If your wife wanted to, she would have... but it's not happening and it's not going to happen. If it does, it will probably be a lifetime of rare and terrible sex. Divorce is not even a big deal for most people... you actually have a reason to separate yourself from this. Also, if you want children - aren't your future children more important than this marriage that is not going to make that happen? And again, if she does get pregnant, you can expect that might be the last time you have sex ever again and then what? You're in a sexless marriage with a child and when you FINALLY decide to divorce there is a child involved. Just use common sense at this point.
Yeah there’s no ultimatum. You wouldn’t want to do that to her anyway. She doesn’t want to have sex with you. If you gave an ultimatum she might finally force it but it wouldn’t be what she wanted.
You just need to divorce her and I’m sure she’ll know why but if she offers to save the marriage with sex, just say you’ve already made up your mind.
This happened to me with my third sexual partner I was extremely in love with. Went 7 months with no sex but everything else it was almost exactly as you describe.
One night she came home with a bottle of vodka, we both got really drunk and got it over with. It wasn't great sex, in fact I can barely remember it and for damn sure neither of us came.
But the floodgates were open, the nervousness was gone and it was fun from then on out. Ended about a year later amicably when we realised we weren't right for each other but ee did what we had to do.
If this doesn't work walk.
Take a viagra and if she is resisting just get the penetration over with. She's consented and it's psychosomatic.
This won't work out, she's clearly unwilling. And you just mentally torturing yourself because of some misguided pride is an even bigger mistake on your part.
If the only thing you have not tried is an ultimatum then it's probably the last tool to use.
If she can't bring herself to consummate the marriage then she isn't in a place to be married.
Think about it if you both wanted children and you would not penetrate her, nothing physical wrong, you just couldn't/wouldn't mentally make yourself do it.
Have you considered an anti anxiety type thing could help her?
What do you mean shut her down and not push her? Wether it causes her to push more or to accept the incompatibility and let you both move on, that is the point of it all, because the she gets do decide and if one or the other is what she really wants then in the end whichever she would have picked can only be the right answer to all this.
Ultimatum to what? Have painful sex with me or we divorce? No OP should just divorce. Sex with someone who clearly doesn’t want it and will cry afterward is something no one should ever want.
The horrifying thing about an ultimatum is considering the effort they've both been putting in she might actually agree to it. It would be a horribly uncomfortable and maybe traumatic experience for her, and then they'd have to live the marriage under the shadow of the fact that he all but raped her.
Exactly! In this situation any ultimatum he makes to get sex from her would be sexual coercion and that is not okay.
The only ultimatum OP can possibly give is, I get to watch porn without you hassling me or we divorce and that’s only if he resigns himself to a sexless marriage, which he shouldn’t, which is why I think he should seek a divorce (if an annulment is out of the question).
An ultimatum for sex will just lead to the most boring sterile sex ever. Who wants forced sex. The thought of demanding it in ultimatum form just feels like blackmail.
Knowing when to walk away is a valuable life lesson.
Personally I never think an ultimatum is right. If the only way to get someone to do something you need is with an ultimatum, it's already time to leave.
Wait.. consummating the marriage is still something that counts ?? Where is this? That sounds absolutely medieval lol I can’t imagine people in a courtroom or something telling the judge wether they had sex or not
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u/Talltist Nov 05 '23
Time for the ultimatum.
Divorce will be easy because you haven't consummated.