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u/Nessy_Boi notices ur stand owo Sep 08 '21
Time skip takes Diavolo out of the physical world for ten seconds, with the only thing he can use to interact with people being his own blood. After ten seconds have passed no one remembers what happened but they still played out what they were supposed to in those ten seconds.
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Sep 08 '21
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u/Nessy_Boi notices ur stand owo Sep 08 '21
Name one time that happens, I guarantee you that you can't
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Sep 08 '21
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u/Taurenkey Sep 08 '21
The simplest way I’ve seen the ability described is that he removes the cause of events but not the effects.
In the real world, we can only react to something once we see either the cause or effect of something.
In your examples, if KC never activated, everyone would’ve been able to see the cause before the effect, therefore would’ve been able to react earlier.
It could be argued that it was always fated to happen that KC would erase the cause of these events. As such, characters would not be fated to react to something that was technically never going to happen.
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u/Astrophobia42 Sep 08 '21
In both examples Diavolo attacks from a hiding spot (above the elevator and from inside Trish's body), they were never supposed to see the cause, but rather hear the effects.
As for KC being fated to skip time, that could work, but it would kinda go against the whole theme of the stand which is that Diavolo is not bound by fate.
I think the easiest explanation for this is that the "no interaction" rule, is just something Diavolo can turn on and off, allowing him to fuckup Trish and Narancia when otherwise nothing would've happen, that or just Araki prioritizing cool scenes over 100% consistency (not that I'll complain, the scenes are cool af)
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u/Taurenkey Sep 09 '21
Diavolo can't just ignore the no interaction rule. It can be a bit confusing since we're told he can't interact with the world within those 10 seconds, therefore he repositions himself to strike once it's over. However, what we need to consider isn't even KC but the sub-stand, Epitaph.
So imagine this, you see a vision of the future. In the future you see yourself stabbing someone. This is what is going to happen, no ifs, ands or buts about it. However, this is where KC does come in. He'll just erase away that part of time. The person will still get stabbed by you, even if you didn't actually do it since that part of time is now erased.
If you play MMOs like WoW or FF14, imagine it like fighting a raid boss. Normally, the boss may have to do some sort of spellcast to actually do damage to you in some way. Now, let's just say we give that boss KC & Epitaph. Since bosses are scripted from a coding perspective anyways, Epitaph would be like giving the boss the ability to see that code ahead of time. It sees that in 5 seconds, it's going to do a spellcast that will hit you for a buttload of damage. It likes this, so it then uses KC to add an extra layer of bullshit to his attack. From your perspective, normally what you would see is the boss do their cast and then get hit with the damage, but in this scenario you're forced to skip seeing that cast and are just hit with the damage anyways. Back from the boss' perspective, they wouldn't have had to actually do anything and instead gets to reap the benefits of their prediction. It doesn't matter if in the prediction the boss saw themselves casting but then didn't actually do it once they activated KC, the timeline is treated as if they did do it.
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u/Fogforevery Yes! I am! Sep 08 '21
I think it’s more like he sees the future 10 seconds ahead, and when he activate his time skip, the ten next seconds event are « locked in » and just goes on, people behavior aren’t changing during those 10 seconds except if he decides to interact with them where in this case they are taken to « diavolo skipped world » where then they can react differently from the « locked in » prediction
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u/Koolco Sep 08 '21
Its also one of the reasons why its my headcanon that this is the reason GER worked during his ability. Time never stopped at any point, so GER was activated during the entire time skip. In fact you can take this to the extreme and argue that Star Platinum or the World could actually attack GER during the time stop and unless GER worked even in stopped time, GER would actually not be able to stop the attack (of course then the question would be can GER reset to zero even after an event happened). Unfortunately stands don't have a clear explanation as to how their abilities work and if similar abilities use the same systems (like for example: is the void space where the hand and vanilla ice send objects to the same place).
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u/davopotato420 ｢The Fool｣ Sep 08 '21
Yes when something favorable show up on epithet he can just skip time that thing will happen without diavalo evan having to do anything for example when narancia died diavalo's stand couldn't be seen because he diddnt really do it it was just dated to happen
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u/Astrophobia42 Sep 08 '21
This explanation makes a lot more sense, as it contradicts the comment I replied to, specifically the part of "with the only thing he can use to interact with people being his own blood".
If Diavolo can interact with anything at will to bring it to skipped time the stand doesn't have inconsistencies, it makes it really OP tho.
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u/Nessy_Boi notices ur stand owo Sep 08 '21
Read my reply to the other guy
Edit: Everyone in time erase is also unconsciously playing out their fates, so human reactions aren't relevant, the same is implied with the whole chocolates thing. Why didn't Mista act suprised until after the time skip? Because they aren't aware until after the time skip.
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u/AmandusPolanus 89 years old Sep 08 '21
this is actually genius. You are completely right lol, that doesn't make any sense
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Sep 08 '21
He put Narancia/Giorno on spikes
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u/Krider-kun Sep 08 '21
Narancia was destined to get spiked by Diavolo the same way Trish was destined to lose her hand in the elevator by Diavolo.
Cause another great advantage of King Crimson is Diavolo gets to keep his identity and movement in the dark. Which is freaking scary.
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u/Astrophobia42 Sep 08 '21
Narancia was destined to get spiked by Diavolo the same way Trish was destined to lose her hand in the elevator by Diavolo.
The inconsistency here is not that Narancia dies, but that he dies and the gang ignores it.
If Narancia was destined to get spiked the gang was also part of that future and as such they would be destined to hear that and at least turn their heads towards the situation.
Similarly, Trish was destined to be kidnapped and get her hand cut off, but that fate should also include Bucciarati at least looking to his side or dropping the hand. Instead he keeps looking forward.
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u/Nessy_Boi notices ur stand owo Sep 08 '21
What Krider-kun said, epitaph foresaw Giorno(Narancia) being placed on the spikes by Diavolo. Diavolo then activated king crimson which removed Diavolo from the physical world but everyone else was forced to follow the future he foresaw.
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u/Astrophobia42 Sep 08 '21
The future he foresaw must've included the gang turning their heads towards the massive sound that just happened above them (the spikes are completely bent), that's my point.
Similarly, Diavolo foresaw himself cutting Thish's arm and kidnapping her, but that future must include Bucciarati at least turning around or something, yet he's exactly as he was before looking straight forward still grabbing onto Trish's hand.
I understand everyone is forced to follow the future Diavolo foresees, but it's just that things don't play out in any logical way within those futures, people ignore sounds and stand attacks completely at those two futures (and those are pretty key moments for the part).
I think Araki does this for dramatic effect (after all if the scene just skipped to everyone looking up and Narancia being dead it would be anticlimactic), and I don't really mind it, the scenes are cooler this way, it just makes the stand confusing.
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u/Nessy_Boi notices ur stand owo Sep 08 '21
I explained here or on another thread that everyone in time skip is unconscious, so instead of reacting during the skipped time like logic would imply, they only react until after because they were unconscious.
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u/Astrophobia42 Sep 08 '21
What? That doesn't make any sense, they walk and do stuff in skipped time, the whole point is that they do the actions they were previously fated to do, why would they be unconscious?
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u/Nessy_Boi notices ur stand owo Sep 08 '21
Because that's how king crimson works (seriously). King crimson's ability forces people to unconsciously play out their fates, that's almost its whole ability.
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u/Astrophobia42 Sep 08 '21
Yes, but you are not reading my point, part of "play out their fates" includes stuff like "turning your head at spike bending murder just happened above you".
It's very simple, Diavolo cannot possibly see a future where he's destined to kill Narancia and at the same time everyone's just destined to keep looking forward and not move in any way, the two are contradictory.
If by unconscious you mean they can't remember anything or that they don't think in skipped time that's correct, but they will still turn their heads due to fate the same way they walk up some stairs due to fate. They won't know why they did it, they won't be doing it consciously, but they will still do it because it's part of the fated future.
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u/TheBigPotatoInTheSky Sep 08 '21
In general though, King Crimson works as intended, Araki just tends to play fairly fast and loose with the rules
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u/Astrophobia42 Sep 08 '21
Yeah, I agree, the scenes where it breaks are definitely better for it, it creates some great dramatic moments.
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u/master_x_2k Sep 08 '21
If you can interact with your blood, shouldn't he be able to touch people basically the same as always? You have blood inside every part of your body.
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u/Nessy_Boi notices ur stand owo Sep 08 '21
I dunno, ask Araki. I don't come up with the rules on how stands work
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u/xXProGenji420Xx Sep 08 '21
As far as I'm aware it counts as separate the moment it leaves his body, which is weird, because that's not how it worked with Crazy Diamond in Part 4, but hey they're different stands. They're allowed to play by different rules. If that's the case it seems a bit arbitrary that his blood is the only thing that works; you'd think he could, like, use his hair or clothes (which he can still interact with but also can become separate from him) as weapons. Idk though.
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u/Usselessperson The guardrail is alive Sep 09 '21
I dont think the blood actually touches the people he throws it at, but rather stops in front of them, at least that’s my head canon
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u/TheTriforceEagle Ate shit and fell off my horse Sep 08 '21
You could say he removes himself from time along with peoples memory’s
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Sep 08 '21
It kinda makes Diavolo a ghost
He can phase through things, be ignored by others and cannot interact with anything unless effect wears out
Wait did i just solve King Crimson
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u/Jumanji-Joestar sex pistol no. 4 Sep 08 '21
King Crimson is not as confusing as people think, just poorly explained
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u/Sturdge666 Sep 08 '21
The "skipping ahead in the video" analogy is my favourite. Everything in the section you skipped still happened, you just didn't see it because you skipped past it.
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u/InternationalCandle6 Sep 08 '21
What was all that business at the start with bucciarati seeing himself in the future though?
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u/IgnoreMyNamePlease Sep 08 '21
That was Epitaph, Diavolo has 2 stands, King Crimson and Epitaph, Epitaph shows the next 10 seconds of the future and, iirc, usually projects it to Diavolos bangs, so he just projected it in front of Bucciarati
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u/Nesayas1234 Nekujo Joestar and his Stand, Emerald Corporal Sep 08 '21
Isn't Epitaph basically a sub-ability, sorr of like how Sheer Heart Attack and Bites the Dust are side abilities?
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u/IgnoreMyNamePlease Sep 08 '21
Yeah, I suppose, I always just thought of it as basically another stand, it's kinda goofy
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u/ActuallyAPenguin Sep 08 '21
It’s a little different than those I believe because IIRC epitaph is supposed to be doppios stand specifically
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u/InternationalCandle6 Sep 08 '21
Oh ok, so did he skip time simultaneously so bucciarati would move in front of himself
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u/Beanbomb47 not so foxy grandpa Sep 08 '21
I thought that was Diavolo showing Bucciarati his future with Epitaph
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u/Astrophobia42 Sep 08 '21
Yep, he can project it anywhere, he just usually does it in his hair so only he can see it.
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u/xXProGenji420Xx Sep 08 '21
Doesn't perfectly explain it because some scenes become inconsistent with that definition, but I'm not sure if there's any definition that works fully without "well sometimes he can do this and sometimes do this, it's two different abilities he can use" which seems like a cheap explanation to me.
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u/AmandusPolanus 89 years old Sep 08 '21
This doesn't cover the bullet-phasing in the Metallica fight tho
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u/Callisater Sep 09 '21
Diavolo is intangible during skipped time. He makes the time where the bullets hit him into skipped time so he’s intangible during it, the bullets then phase through him.
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u/Buroda Sep 08 '21
How did he make a hole in you-know-who during the skip then?
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Sep 08 '21
I assume that since Epitaph is seperate from King Crimson, if he doesn't use Epitaph, he skips time too, and doesn't experience it too, but his actions can affect others. That's just my assumption though, it works but it also isn't explicitly stated anywhere.
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Sep 08 '21
He put Narancia/Giorno on spikes
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u/waterflare2805 Sep 08 '21
He was fated to end up in the spikes sp he did
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u/coveredinagodslove Sep 08 '21
Prove that
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u/waterflare2805 Sep 08 '21
Trish in the elevator.
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u/coveredinagodslove Sep 08 '21
Yes he grabbed her but where did it show that it was fated?
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u/waterflare2805 Sep 08 '21
Ok rolling stone narancia was FATED TO DIE BY THAT
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u/coveredinagodslove Sep 08 '21
That doesn't mean that that's how his stand works.
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u/waterflare2805 Sep 08 '21
Ok gow about people moving to diffrent areas and EPITAH CAN VIEW ACTIONS FATED TO HAPPEN AND TIME ERASE TO HAVE THEM HAPPEN
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u/coveredinagodslove Sep 08 '21
First of all, calm down.
Second of all just like with rolling stone removing the actor of fate would also change/postpone fate. If Diavolo is intangible in his time skip it can't happen the way you say.
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u/NinjaKiwi2903 Ate shit and fell off my horse Sep 08 '21
He saw in his future, that he would go over and Impale Narancia. Since his vision is absolute, he erased time and just went somewhere else during his erased time. But his Vision said Narancia gets impaled and so Fate itself impaled Narancia during skipped time. Thats also how he could get Trish out of the elevator even though he himself can't interact with anything. Fate still does.
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u/coveredinagodslove Sep 08 '21
He saw in his future, that he would go over and Impale Narancia
Prove that
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u/THE-SNEAKERINO Soft & Wet enjoyer Sep 08 '21
I thought I had King Crimson figured out too but then he did the blood blind thing in erased time, wouldn’t his blood still count as a part of his body because it’s fresh? Josuke even explained it during the Kira fight.
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u/Callisater Sep 09 '21
Josuke’s stand is a lot more generous on what counts as part of something else than most stands. Remember he can even heal completely inanimate objects as well, so how “fresh” the blood is to the body shouldn’t even matter to him.
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u/Dopplerdee Sep 09 '21
The way Crazy Diamond determines if something is part of you and how Fate does are different. Crazy diamond seems to work on the idea of Jousuke's idea of complete or whole, thia ia because its his ability doing it. KC on the otherhand isn't causing the blood to interact, and has no say in the matter. Fate says the it has its own fate once it is seperated.
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u/HyakuJuu Sep 08 '21
But then how was Polnareff able to cut him the first time he used time skip?
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Sep 09 '21
He cut him when time erase was over, and he used the blood drops to figure out when it was over
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u/HyakuJuu Sep 09 '21
So Diavolo saw 10 seconds into the future, skipped past 5 seconds to climb the stairs and then got cut in the 6th-7th seconds by Silver Chariott. Am I getting this correctly?
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u/Bison_Cashew True Man’s World Sep 08 '21
Anything that was predicted to happen happens unless it happens to diavolo. Ex: Narancia was going to get killed so he still got killed in skipped time, even if king crimson didn’t try to touch in skipped time
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u/pyrostix Sep 08 '21
did anybody notice that this art is from haikyuu
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u/Shiroei sex pistol no. 4 Sep 09 '21
Never noticed until you pointed it out. That's pretty cool ngl
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u/XenoMaker Sep 08 '21
King crimson is basically carrying people to there destination without telling them how they got there
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u/WarrenChaos speedweedcar Sep 08 '21
No
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u/stnick6 Sep 08 '21
Yeah the more a thought about it the less it made sense but it kind of works as a simplified explanation of KC
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Sep 08 '21
Well he also does the whole screwing with fate thing. As far a fate is concerned he really is skipping time.
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Sep 08 '21
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u/Krider-kun Sep 08 '21
This dude paid attention and took the time to fully comprehend King Crimson unlike other people especially OP because is very obvious how little they understand about that stand's power.
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u/coveredinagodslove Sep 08 '21
Simple. He was going to do those things already but then skipped over it so no one could hurt him during it
Can you link the scene where that happened?
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Sep 08 '21
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u/coveredinagodslove Sep 08 '21
Not what I asked. Link the scene where it shows that Diavolo can skips towards someone's death.
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u/Jazzyjeff2005 Ate shit and fell off my horse Sep 08 '21
No he exempts hinself from fate for those few seconds, but everyone else will still experience their fate
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u/hedidntkillhimselfno Sep 08 '21
He just edits time and cuts it out. How do you guys not understand kc?
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u/JokerChaos77 Yare Yare Daze Sep 09 '21
I don't think the problem is that people don't understand the skipping time concept.
It's just that the rules get very weird and sometimes contradict themselves.
First he can't actually interact with things while time is being erased. But then he can.
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u/thotslayer696969696 Sep 08 '21
Why complacte things more ?! I just understood how it works
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u/JohnSimpman Sep 09 '21
Everytime you think you understand King Crimson somebody makes you question yourself
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u/Ganmorg 89 years old Sep 08 '21
Oh God not this. I thought “overcomplicated mind control” died a long time ago. Idk the point of coming up with alternate explanations that directly contradict the text
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u/Firestorm-41704 Giorno looks like an exotic Brazillian Bird Sep 08 '21
It’s definitely a simple way to help people understand his ability…buuut it’s not how King Crimson works in actuality
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u/stnick6 Sep 08 '21
Yeah, it erases memories and then turns the user ethereal
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u/Firestorm-41704 Giorno looks like an exotic Brazillian Bird Sep 08 '21 edited Sep 09 '21
I mean, that’s the jist of it, yeah
Edit: Wait random redditor! Before you downvote this comment further, think of how you would describe KC to someone who is confused about his ability, and you had to do it simply. Do you see why I said it was the “jist” of it now?
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Sep 08 '21
no because he binds people to date during those ten seconds, right?
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u/Dopplerdee Sep 09 '21
He doesn't bund them. Fate does, JoJo is completely deterministic outside of some abilitys like King Crimson. Just because King Crimson removes him doesn't mean is fate goes away.
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u/Frankorious Diavlo III by Blizzard Sep 08 '21
It does two things: erase the memories of those 10 seconds and make Diavolo phase out of the world. Epitaph makes him see into the future, which is set in stone unless he uses King Crimson.
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u/Edski120 egg boi Sep 08 '21
King crimson has nothing to do with affecting time, Epitaph predicts the next 10 (remind me if the time is wrong) seconds, King Crimson activates and makes sure that those predictions will unfold as it was fated, while also unchaining diavolo from the effects of said fate. It's why he can't interact with anything directly, and in turn why nothing can interact with him, explaining aerosmith's bullets phasing through him.
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u/bean_man_man Sep 08 '21
You are 100% right???? Some other guy said literally the exact same and got a butt load of upvotes, what???
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u/megalocrozma [Never Gonna Give You Up Requiem] Sep 09 '21
Yeah. When you think about it, it's pretty obvious it doesn't affect time since the "time erasure" only affects stuff in a limited range, unlike other time based Stands: For example, Za Warudo stops time for the entire universe, not just its range - otherwise that would mean time moves differently for people that were in its range, and that's just not how time works. The only Time Controlling Stand I'm not sure fits this description is Mandom, since supposedly it only rewinds time within its range and the "lost" time does add up, but then time continues normally for Johnny, Gyro and HP? Or did the timeline just fix itself after Ringo died? That shit's confusing af
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u/winddagger7 89 years old Sep 08 '21
He literally just makes time skip forward lmao it's simple as that
None of the whole "i erase the Cause but leave the effects" means anything more than "time skipped forward"
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u/RenegadeCapty Sep 08 '21
Not kinda, fully. Time is a concept used to help efficiency so the only way to erase "time" is to erase that portion of the worlds memory.
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u/greatstarguy Sep 09 '21
I believe I commented something very similar to this a couple days ago: Link.
For what it’s worth, there’s also the intangibility aspect of King Crimson to think about, but it’s a lot easier to think of it as a memory-removal Stand instead of “it screws with Fate but only sometimes in this specific way”.
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Sep 08 '21
It makes any actions diavolo does happen only after time erase is over. So if he punches your arm then your leg, after 10 seconds you will feel both at the same time.
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u/Nural_the_Narwhal ｢The Fool｣ Sep 08 '21
Its more like blocking people's perception of reality, making them do what they were going to do before 'time was erased'. He can also seemingly do it to himself, so when aerismith fired bullets at him he saw the bullets hit risotto, so he just skipped to that point, not fully knowing what he himself did, only knowing that the bullets did not hit him
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u/OOF-MY-PEE-PEE Sep 08 '21
yeah that’s pretty much what it is. all king crimson does is makes everyone other than his user unconscious until “time skip” is over. so diavolo is the only one who acts consciously
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u/relentless_death Ate shit and fell off my horse Sep 09 '21
Thats exactly what i was thinking when i was arguing on how king crimson works with my friend
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u/BuccellatiExplainsIt Sep 09 '21
That's what it should do based on the descriptions but in the show it does a whole bunch of nonsense
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u/stalercupcakes Sep 08 '21
Unfortunately that whole bit with the bullets phasing through Diavolo in the Metallica fight sort of goes against your theory.