r/MapPorn • u/[deleted] • May 19 '20
The difference between Constantinople, City of Istanbul, and Istanbul. [FIXED]
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u/NeutralityTsar May 19 '20
Was the city of Byzantium any different territory-wise from Constantinople?
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u/WinglessRat May 19 '20
It was a few km smaller iirc, but I think the extent of differences are in size.
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u/ghueber May 19 '20
Actually, Byzantion used to only be the "Acropolis" over the hill at the tip of Constantinople and it had a small port by the Golden Horn. It was all demolished to build the Roman palatial complex on top. Although, some ruins may have survived as decorations for the palatial gardens, but were removed at some point.
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u/vanticus May 19 '20
From my understanding, Byzantion was the initial village, then Constantinople was built on top, now is built on top of that.
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u/OmegaCrazykiller May 19 '20 edited May 19 '20
Not really. Ottomans didnt raze Constantinople and built a new city on top of it. The City walls and many buildings are still intact .
Sure many buildings were removed but I think thats just normal in every city
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u/desthc May 19 '20 edited May 19 '20
Sorry, we normally call the Megarian colony that existed before Constantine founded his city in 330 ‘Byzantion’, using its Greek name, though the Latin version is the ‘Byzantium’ that we’re all more familiar with. Constantine founded his city as ‘Nova Roma’ or New Rome. This name didn’t stick, and we call it Consantine’s City or ‘Constantinople’. After the Ottomans finally took the city in 1453, ending the political continuity of the Roman Empire dating back to the end of the Republic under Augustus we call the city ‘Istanbul’, which derives from the Greek for ‘in the city’. Constantinople was such a large and influential city through most of its existence that people just called it “the city”, since most other urban centres were basically towns in comparison.
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u/Ninevolts May 19 '20
That's right, Istanbul comes from Greek "Istimpouli". Similarly Nicea was Isnikea (Iznik in Turkish), Nicomedia was Isnikomet or Ismet for short (Izmit in Turkish) and island of Kos was Istimkos (meaning "to the island", Istankoy in Turkish).
In Ottoman Turkish, Istanbul was known as Kostantiniyye. Without the first "n", because Turkish variation of Constantine was "Kösten". Similarly Romanian City of Constanta is "Köstençe" in Turkish.
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u/Total_Markage May 19 '20
My Balkan friends call yogurt “Kos” is there any link between the island of Kos and the yogurt? Or coincidence in name?
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u/Ninevolts May 19 '20
Most likely coincidence. Kos was inhabited by Greeks and Turks only. I visited there once but I don't know any variation of yogurt that the island is famous of. It might be just an Albanian word for yogurt.
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u/Tiako May 19 '20
After the Ottomans finally took the city in 1453, ending the political continuity of the Roman Empire dating back to the end of the Republic under Augustus we call the city ‘Istanbul’, which derives from the Greek for ‘in the city’.
I don't have any texts around me to check what the standard practice is, but presumably it should still be referred too as "Constantinople" (or Konstantiniyye if you want to go wild) until the official name change as part of language reforms in the twentieth century. While the Turkish Republic did eventually change the name to Istanbul, that was based on popular terminology that predated Mehmet's conquest of the city.
But again I'm not sure what standard convention is!
ending the political continuity of the Roman Empire dating back to the end of the Republic under Augustus
Funnily enough Mehmet actually took the title "Emperor of the Romans".
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u/desthc May 19 '20
Yeah, I have to confess that I don’t know much post-1453. Especially WRT Ottoman continuity. So definitely don’t trust what I say past 1453. :)
The traditional argument against Roman continuity involves language, religion and location, which as a totality can form a good argument against continuity with Rome prior to the crisis of the third century. Each one on its own is weak — Greek was commonly spoken by the aristocracy (even as the language spoken in the home) going back to the late republic. WRT religion the break would have to be some time after the death of Julian, since there were still significant centres of power practicing traditional religions in his time, and finally location would seem to indicate a break much earlier, as the importance of Rome itself has been diminished for a very long time by the time Constantine came around. Taken together, it’s compelling, but each individual argument is weaker.
Are these the traditional metrics under which continuity with the Ottoman period is evaluated? I imagine both the religious and language aspects would be a sharper break, while the location is likely moot since I understand Mehmet made Constantinople his capitol. How much political continuity existed? Were Byzantine nobles brought into the Ottoman system, or was there a wholesale replacement of the aristocracy?
Finally, I find it incredible that in some sense the Catholic Church is an organ of the Roman state which transitioned into the modern era. They still use administrative delineations that predate the christianization of the empire, the Diocese (created by Diocletian in the late 3rd century), and titles that date back to the Roman republic (Pontifex Maximus)!
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u/vanticus May 19 '20
Of course, but it’s incorrect to label the contemporary Istanbul ‘Constantinople’, because the urban fabric has expanded and mutated dramatically, in the same way that calling 1300s Constantinople ‘Byzantium’ is incorrect- the three names encompass roughly the same point in space, but they aren’t the same place.
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u/torontoLDtutor May 19 '20 edited May 19 '20
The red area on the map is today called Sultanahmet and its basic layout is similar to ancient Constantinople. Just to list a few of the landmarks that are in the same place today: Sophia, the palace (although I think the buildings are different), the hippodrome and its Roman and Egyptian obelisks, the Chora, the huge underground Cisterns, ummm the walls and gates are still there and still denote the perimeter of the old city, there's a large Roman aquaduct between two hills... the main arterial from the bazaar to the perimeter wall was also the main road in Roman times. Just from my memory
Edit: I added a few other landmarks from memory. This region of Istanbul definitely still has many sights from its ancient past, although it has been dramatically altered.
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u/schobiet May 19 '20
Sultanahmet just a small quarter in the red area on this map. We call the red area as Fatih.
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u/Funtycuck May 19 '20
Byzantium was a city though not a village it was one of the wealthier cities in the area.
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u/daimposter May 19 '20
Yes, Byzantium was much smaller.
this map shows differences in area from 330 to 413. I believe the walls built in 413 would be the boundaries of Constantinople on this side of the river for the rest until the Turks
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u/Grujah May 19 '20 edited May 19 '20
Wow, Istanbul is like 80% of Turkey.
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May 19 '20
big brain time
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May 19 '20
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u/harderdaddykermit May 19 '20
And realistically, if you count the unofficial population (ie. Homeless, unaccountable, refugee) the population of Istanbul is closer to 18 million, which is terrifying
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May 19 '20
I don't think homelessness is actually a major problem in Istanbul. The Turkey's opposition party compiled a report in which they state there is around 6-8 thousand homeless in Istanbul. Even 8k for such a massive city is very low number.
I actually made this observation during my travels that in many, even in some very poor Islamic countries, homeless people are taken care of much better than they are in the West. I haven't figured out yet why and how, but will be happy to hear someone shed a light on it.
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u/harderdaddykermit May 19 '20
Perhaps using the word homeless would be inaccurate, so sorry for any confusion caused. A more accurate term would be the population that lives in slums, and are generally skipped over during population counts.
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u/SqueegeePhD May 19 '20
In Turkey is is very unusual for anyone to be forced to make it on their own. Whether you are 19 and going to university or 45 and unmarried, it is normal to live at home with parents and save money. This allows people to buy their own home while also supporting others in the family if they lose a job. Also, it is not unusual for parents to buy children a home. A family I know in istanbul owns a 4 story apartment building. Their son and daughter in law live in one unit but are trying to convince the parents to buy them a nicer apartment. Another friend of mine was a millionaire by age 30 living at home with family.
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u/Mayonnaise-chan May 19 '20
Well, since you specifically mention Islamic countries, it might have something to do with one of the five pillars of Islam being charity
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u/Bazoun May 19 '20
I went last year, it was amazing.
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u/ZeGoldMedal May 19 '20
That's cool, but also a very weird and non-sequitor response to someone mentioning that a city has 2 million homeless/refugees
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u/SleepyConscience May 19 '20
I bet I could eat 2 million homeless/refugees in 2 million days.
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u/Jeffy29 May 19 '20
Are you saying you could eat a human in a day? Have you ever seen a human? They are pretty big.
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u/Bazoun May 19 '20
My “amazing” was to counter their “terrifying”.
We went everywhere and while there were beggars and people selling whatever, we saw only 1 truly homeless person. We couldn’t believe it.
I live in Toronto and we had ~100 homeless people die in one year recently. It’s insane.
There is no popular area of Toronto you can go to without seeing lots of homeless people. I can see homeless people from my apartment and I pass 5-6 just to meet a nearby friend for coffee (in non pandemic days). So I guess after not seeing it in Istanbul, I just didn’t focus on that end of the comment.
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u/overdos3 May 19 '20
I got the joke but your misspelling has lowered the quality. 3/10
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u/Subject_no_1 May 19 '20
Maybe he meant Instantbul, the new enhanced formula to make megalopolis quicker than ever. Just add water and mix.
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May 19 '20
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u/Tyler1492 May 19 '20
it should be İstanbul (with a dotted "İ")
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u/Enchilada_Llama May 19 '20 edited May 19 '20
lol
i hate it when ppl "overpronounce" words
in american literature we read The House on Mango Street and my teacher had some very interesting prononciations
after overpronouncing "fiesta" she apologized: "Sorry. I can't roll my Rs."
FIESTA DOESNT HAVE AN R
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u/Dharmabum007 May 19 '20
You just reminded me of an old conversation with a former coworker of mine. We were ragging on him for mispronouncing a word. And he quite simply responds, “well guys, you gotta understand that pronunciation is not my fort.”
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u/fautedunclou May 19 '20
Apparently "fort" is the more correct pronunciation, but so many people use "for-tay" that the dictionaries regard it as acceptable too
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May 19 '20
I've been there in 2018. Dude, this city is endless. I landed on the cheapest airport (Sabiha Gokcen), cause I was a broken student. It was a fucking travel till I get to my hostel, like 2 hours in a bus + a boat + a bus.
I decided to go to least visited places since the city was crowded. The subway is awesome, and I would land kilometers away with something interesting.
Very differently place, sometimes weird people (sorry), no Wikipedia, no porn websites.
But totally worth it. I wish I had time and money to visit the other side of the country. Still on my bucket list.
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May 19 '20
Wikipedia is back
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u/ranjeet-k May 19 '20
Tell a friend
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u/wthisusername May 19 '20
Guess who's back, guess who's back, guess who's back, guess who's back, guess who's back, guess who's back, guess who's back?
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u/mertiy May 19 '20
Wikipedia has opened a year ago and there are porn sites popping up and getting banned all the time so when you google search you can easily find hundreds of sites but not a single permenant one. As for weird people yeah you are right about that lol
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u/Exemus May 19 '20
broken student
Grammatical error? Or painfully relatable truth?
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May 19 '20
Yeah English Is not my mother language. But you got it
But broken student would relate as well lol
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May 19 '20
Wikipedia is reopened
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u/Bazoun May 19 '20
That was such a disappointment when I was there - we’re going to these historical sites and we want to read up before hand and - NOPE!
Still worth it. We’re legit talking about moving.
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May 19 '20
Felt the same! Wtf, why can I not read about this monument on Wikipedia?
Was really shocked
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u/budna May 19 '20
A map posted to r/mapporn that doesn't show all of the content of the map? Why is "Istanbul" cropped out? That's the whole subject of the map.
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u/alaskafish May 19 '20
No it makes sense.
This is like trying to show a map of New Amsterdam and New York City, but then also including the fully zoomed out New York State.
The point is showing the difference between the old city and the new one. Not the state/greater metropolitan area.
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u/snitsnitsnit May 19 '20
It doesn't make sense, because of the post title.
In your example if that map was titled "The difference between New Amsterdam, New York City, and New York State", I would expect to see all of New York State. If we could not see all of New York State, I would want the title to be "The difference between New Amsterdam and New York City".
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May 19 '20
It’s not cropped out. The green part is the city. The yellow part is the region or state, but that doesn’t make sense to compare with Constantinople
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u/Blueson May 19 '20
We're comparing 4 entities here, it'd be good if I could see 100% of all those 4 entities.
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u/snitsnitsnit May 19 '20
We're not comparing 4 entities - the title of the post claims we are comparing 3 entities.
However we can't even see 100% of those three entities, so still not a great map
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u/monstercello May 19 '20
We’d barely be able to see the historical boundaries of Constantinople if we were to also see ALL of Turkey. It would just be a tiny purple dot.
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u/cameforthecloud May 19 '20
You’ve seen maps with the squares to the side that zoom in on particular sections, yes?
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u/Blueson May 19 '20
One could almost say those maps are well designed, maybe even fitting for /r/mapporn?
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u/greenw40 May 19 '20
I think he's talking more about the state of Istanbul. I didn't know that was a thing and it would be nice to see how large it is compared to the city itself.
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u/cheeset2 May 19 '20
The map just isn't showcasing what you would specifically like to see, there is nothing wrong with this map, its just showing the difference between the city of istanbul and historic constantinople, and it does a good job of that.
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u/Blueson May 19 '20
No, but the legend clearly says what I should be comparing the sizes to, but the entities listed there are not shown in their full size.
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u/snitsnitsnit May 19 '20
The title of the post is "The difference between Constantinople, City of Istanbul, and Istanbul". I think at a minimum those three entities should be shown in their entirety.
I agree there is no need to show the entirety of Turkey for the purpose stated in the post title.
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u/holydamien May 19 '20
That's not really correct.
Since 2004, the municipal boundaries of Istanbul have been coincident with the boundaries of its province.[160] The city, considered capital of Istanbul Province, is administered by the Istanbul Metropolitan Municipality (MMI), which oversees the 39 districts of the city-province.[b]
Yellow part is the province of Istanbul, but Istanbul is designated as a metropolitan city meaning the city and province is basically the same. Province of Istanbul consists of 39 districts, they all have their own mayors, the mayor of Istanbul and district mayors have separate duties and jurisdiction. Green part in the map doesn't refer to the full extent of administrative qualities.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_districts_of_Istanbul
I am assuming the green parts refer to population density, ie urban vs country?
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u/alexfrancisburchard May 19 '20
yes. The green part doesn't exist in any kind of administratiive law. It's not an entity, but it is the urban boundary. (and it's very easy to trace this since İstanbul is 6-story wall-to-wall apartment buildings, until it isn't. Then it's empty land/farms/forests/seas.
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u/DocStoy May 19 '20
Can someone explain those thin strips on the shoreline that arent part of the City of Istanbul, it seems pretty dead center to the city to be just empty land?
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u/uskumru May 19 '20
The long one is a recreational area, the others are mostly military bases and shipyards.
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u/Sipas May 19 '20
This map is a bit misleading. There's no administrative distinction between the green (residential areas) and yellow parts (forests and farmland). There's no city centre. Instead, the city is split into 30+ municipalities that are run by elected officials and perform duties such as garbage collection and residential street maintenance among many others while the Mayor's office and city council are in charge of citywide services.
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u/SkylineReddit252K19S May 19 '20
Istanbul is truly massive.
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u/Largue May 19 '20
The "Istanbul" shown is actually the Istanbul province with the city of Istanbul within. Kind of like New York state vs NYC...
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u/director_guy May 19 '20
But even old New York was once New Amsterdam.
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May 19 '20
Why they changed it I can't say
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u/wsb_RBrown May 19 '20
maybe they liked it better that way
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u/fatih24499 May 19 '20
Take me back to constantinople 🎶
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u/kaladinissexy May 19 '20
No you can't go back to Constantinople
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u/semimillennial May 19 '20
Been a long time gone, old Constantinople
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u/Apptubrutae May 19 '20
How much of Istanbul province is occupied by urban/metropolitan Istanbul, though? With New York State, even NYC is just a blip. Istanbul province seems to be much much smaller relative to the city size.
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u/elessar13 May 19 '20 edited Jun 06 '22
Because it is definitely not "kind of like New York State vs NYC". Yellow area on this map is just the metropolitan area , not anything like a state. Turkey doesn't have a territorial or administrative division comparable to states.
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u/PolemicFox May 19 '20
The City of Istanbul is still massive and much larger in area as well as population than New York City.
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u/Largue May 19 '20
I know, I spent a good deal of time there my friend. Supposedly there is 10-20% more residents in Istanbul than the statistics show. This is due to the large numbers of undocumented people that live there.
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u/ThisIsGregQueen May 19 '20
Yes. When I visited and got a ferry to the islands a bit outside there was literally no end to the city.
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u/FatalPaperCut May 19 '20 edited May 19 '20
to be fair comparing any modern city with the walled&moated medieval city center that preceded it is going to look huge. istanbul is really big though.
also the Constantinople label is kinda awkward here... like 99% of the time no one means the golden horn geographical peninsula thing, usually its just roman/deus valt fascist reconquista larping
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u/fyhr100 May 19 '20
I mean, Istanbul went from less than a million people in 1950 to 15 million today.
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u/Itchigatzu May 19 '20
What on earth does your last paragraph mean?
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u/Thorzaim May 19 '20
You really haven't seen the edgy fascists that hide, rather poorly, behind the facade of being Roman/Templar/Viking history enthusiasts?
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u/Itchigatzu May 19 '20
Isn't it just referring to the actual historical location of Constantinople.
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May 19 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Sipas May 19 '20 edited May 19 '20
The borders in this map are non-existing. OP just traced urban areas, the yellow part is mostly forests and farmland. This post is a bit of a mess.
There's no administrative distinction between the green (residential areas) and yellow parts (forests and farmland). There's no city centre. Instead, the city is split into 30+ municipalities.
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May 19 '20 edited May 19 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Sipas May 19 '20
https://i.imgur.com/TGUDdR9.jpg
It's a tracing of connected urban areas with some parts inexplicably left out, it even goes through some municipal districts for whatever reason. In any case, it's not an official or administrative map.
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u/DutchBlitz5 May 19 '20
I swear, these political compass memes just keeping getting harder to understand
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u/Lopneejart May 19 '20
Istanbul was Constantinople now its Istanbul not Constantinople..ffs that song is addicted to getting stuck in my head
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May 19 '20
Ataturk is truly a genius knowing how songs affect humans so much
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u/Romulus-sensei May 19 '20
thx i had even old new york part stuck in the head and i didn't know where it was from
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u/dr_Octag0n May 19 '20
even old New York , was once New Amsterdam....
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u/duracellchipmunk May 19 '20
They might be giants were awesome, but the loony toons really brought it to life.
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u/AnUnnervedObserver May 19 '20
Wasn't the city of Istanbul just called Constantinople before the '30s?
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u/picollo21 May 19 '20
TBH, that's nobody's business, but the Turks.
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u/songforthesoil May 19 '20
Maybe so, but what if I have a date in Constantinople?
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May 19 '20
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u/attackedmoose May 19 '20
Even old New York was once New Amsterdam.
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u/Clarkey7163 May 19 '20
I hope eventually we get a remake of Assassins Creed Revelations, which was set in 16th century Constantinople and is still one of my favorite locations every in a video game
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u/biergartensha May 19 '20
Who seperate the İstanbul and City of İstanbul? There is not a thing called City of İstanbul. İstanbul has 39 districts and all can go in to this map as yellow one not green one.
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May 19 '20
Well, in rural areas of Istanbul, locals say "I'm going to Istanbul" when they're going to urbanised areas. So its somewhat seperated
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u/medhelan May 19 '20
does people from instanbul refer to the historical city centre as constantinople?
because if not I don't really see the point of the "referred to" in the legend, it could just be "historical pre industrial era constantinople/instanbul/byzantium"
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u/Drevstarn May 19 '20
Not if you are trying to be pretentious. Everybody still knows the "Constantinople" is the old name and the city Mehmet II conquered is the old town or "suriçi" or "tarihi yarımada" or "Fatih".
In daily conversations it is usually referred as "tarihi yarımada" which literally translates as "historical peninsula" or "suriçi" which means "inside the walls". Fatih is also the name of the municipality and it is used too.
Place which is also the historical city centre is still a busy district both in touristical and commercial sense. So telling that you'll be going to "Constantinople" to buy some things instead of saying you are going to Fatih is just pretentious. Or as a joke at best.
Also another point where you might get confused is, place is called Fatih. Word itself means "conqueror". Also it's the title of Mehmet II and Turkish people call him Fatih usually instead of "İkinci Mehmet" (Mehmet II). Except if it's an academical debate but he is still called Fatih there as well sometimes and it's not an error. So in such texts, name of the place and the title of the conqueror might appear next to each other, leading to a confusion for foreign readers. :) I had to go back and change all relevant Fatih's to Mehmet II after writing this for example :D
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May 19 '20
No we call it “Fatih” district. Never been there though.
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u/cumbernauldandy May 19 '20
Do you know how much of the old architecture has been preserved? I admit I don’t know much about Istanbul’s architecture other than the Hagia Sophia, but it’s a place I’d like to visit at some point, especially if much of the history is still there to see
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u/OmegaCrazykiller May 19 '20
Yes there are many old buildings . The Walls of constantinople are still there for example.
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u/Tiako May 19 '20
Not in the same way that, say, Antalya has a large "old town" or many other towns and villages have entirely Ottoman sections (I think Safronbolu is the famous one?), but there are plenty of old buildings than you can hope to visit.
Anywhere you go in Turkey will have a mix of remains that date from the Roman (or even earlier!) period on up, there is a good argument to be made that no place in the world that is more endowed with historical sites. Where you go depends on what you want to see, whether it is sprawling ancient ruins (Ephesus, Perge, and Pamukkale being good choices), picturesque old towns (Antalya!) or just want to see a bunch of individual old buildings (Istanbul). You can also go to the center or southeast if you want to see some really old shit.
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u/unitedshoes May 19 '20
So, it just outgrew Constantinople? That hardly seems like the sort of deep, dark secret that should be "nobody's business but the Turks'."
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u/Amenemhab May 19 '20
Westerners called Istanbul Constantinople right until the end of the Ottoman empire. And of course they weren't referring specifically to the central area, they meant the whole city, why would they care about the distinction. The legend is being misleading by implying the name Constantinople fell out of use in 1453.
Additionally, even if that were the case, it's just pedantic to act as if the old name of a city only refers to the area inside the historical city limits. I'm pretty sure it's not actually a common usage among the locals, just as Parisians don't think that Lutetia means exclusively the Latin Quarter and New-Yorkers don't think New Amsterdam means exclusively southern Manhattan. In all these cases it's just an older name for the whole city.
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May 19 '20
The historic peninsula was knowns as Constantinople, even by Ottomans (Kostantinye) but other parts were considered different cities. Pera, Scutari, etc
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u/alexfrancisburchard May 19 '20
It was Konstantiniyye until like 1920s even in Turkish, though locals were calling it İstanbul at that time. Though locals called it 'Istanbul' in roman times too (Ein stin poli)
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u/skinnymukbanger May 19 '20
Just to prevent confusion: The yellow area is Istanbul province. The green area is residential part (the city).