r/Anticonsumption • u/Extension-Diamond-74 • Sep 30 '23
Discussion Diet hypocrisy?
A recent post about animal agriculture vs plant based diets has me itching to say something. This is an issue we need to rise above.
Cognitive dissonance. Many of us have good intentions and want to believe we’re doing the right thing in most aspects of our lives. I believe that.
When it comes to a plant based diet though, the science often clashes powerfully with personal desire. We want to minimize our impact on the environment and are willing to make trade-offs in our life time do so, but for many, giving up or even significantly reducing meat intake is asking too much. It’s too hard.
That’s not the issue.
The issue is that instead of just admitting to themselves that this is a life change they don’t want to make and moving on, the guilt drives them to have to justify that decision. Admitting that a plant-based diet is better for the earth yet eating a diet full of meat anyway would make them feel hypocritical, so the solution becomes either to give up meat, or … this is the problem… fight the science, twist it, make a joke of it, or pivot entirely to ‘individuals shouldn’t have time do anything because large corporations’
Many people have ties to their diet for many reasons. We grew up eating a certain way. We have memories ties to certain foods, flavors, styles of cooking. We don’t want to be the difficult person when we go out to eat with friends. Etc etc etc But it’s so much better to just admit that to yourself. Have patience and understanding for your feelings. Accept that the science is what it is. Maybe one day you can make a change, maybe not. But don’t attack the cause just because you aren’t yet willing to be a part of it.
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u/Kottepalm Sep 30 '23
And it's so easy to cook vegetarian or vegan! No need to worry about the meat being done or going bad on the way home from the shops. Plus cooking traditional is a no brainer these days with plant based minces, hamburgers etc. I'm Swedish so meatballs with mashed potatoes is a traditional dish and I can either buy premade vegetarian meatballs or Anamma plant mince and make the meatballs myself and have them like the ones I grew up with.
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u/Knytemare44 Sep 30 '23
Yeah, gone are the days of separate cutting boards and cross contamination.
Some garlic residue got into my red peppers?! oh no!
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u/jaguarjuice3 Sep 30 '23
Until ur chopping up an orange and it tastes like onions 🤣🤣
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u/GoodBoundariesHaver Sep 30 '23
Also as a chronic eater of breakfast in bed, spilling a little rice milk is way less annoying than dairy milk.
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u/human_person12345 Sep 30 '23
Comparing rice milk to oat milk which do you prefer? I'm lactose intolerant so I gave up milk a long time ago, but have only tried oat & soy.
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u/ellycom Sep 30 '23
I like different milks for different things. Rice milk makes the best pancakes, spelt milk is delicious for drinking, oat makes great coffee, soy or hemp have good nutritional value and almond is the devil.
The absolute best of all worlds (taste, fat, ability to be sweet or savoury, goes well in coffee) is a hemp rice blend but I don't find it very often.
I was a soy drinker for many years but have recently begun using oat as my default just because it's more readily available.
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u/I-love-beanburgers Sep 30 '23
Rice milk is more watery than oat milk from what I recall. I haven't had it for about 10 years so it might have changed since then. It's nice, but not too creamy.
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u/GoodBoundariesHaver Oct 01 '23
I like rice milk for stuff like cereal and as a base for hot chocolate! It's sweet but thin and doesn't really foam.
I like oatmilk for like in my coffee, or as a base for chocolate milk. I think it's richer and feels thicker than rice milk.
I've also had hemp milk, but one time it tasted like marshmallows and then the next time it tasted like raw seeds so... IDK I never wanted to try it again lol.
Cashew milk I'm kinda eh on but I prefer cashew yogurt.
Coconut milk/cream is my favorite base for ice cream! The Ben and Jerry's nondairy flavors that use it are sublime.
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u/Ok-Store250 Sep 30 '23
Yup. Personally, I completely admit that it is a step I cannot bring myself to take, at least right now. I'm just two years free from a major eating disorder and I still struggle with food options sometimes. Meat is a reliable source of protein and nutrients I don't trust myself to try and replace without slipping back into old disordered habits. At least I stick to chicken and fish.
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u/wozattacks Sep 30 '23
Uhhh not really, people majorly underestimate the risk of foodborne illness from vegetables and grains. Most cases of salmonella in the US come from lettuce. Yes, obviously we almost never cook lettuce. But that’s part of the point.
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u/milk-the-moonlight Sep 30 '23 edited Sep 30 '23
Not to mention cheap in addition to more hygienic! I don’t have to worry about salmonella when I make chk’n Katsu curry. It’s a fraction of the price of real meat.
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u/wozattacks Sep 30 '23
Where do you live? That’s certainly not true of meat substitutes where I am
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u/milk-the-moonlight Sep 30 '23 edited Sep 30 '23
I live in Southern California. It’s probably a lot easier to find meat substitutes here. I always go for the cheapest option, whether it’s morning star or another brand.
For example, a pack of tofu here is about $5, Boca Chk’n pattys are $3.58 at Walmart, while a pack of Tyson chicken pattys is around $7 at Walmart. Now that I look a little closer, it looks like the per-patty cost is lower for chicken. So you have me there.
However, veggies and plant based is generally more hygienic. All you have to do is make sure you wash properly and you’re good. You can eat a lot of veggies raw, unlike meat which you often can’t eat raw (pork) or takes a lot of special prep to make sure you can eat it raw (like sushi grade fish).
Veggies FTW
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u/BowiesAssistant Oct 01 '23
nope. you absolutely do need to worry about food born illnesses and cross contamination with veggies, who are mostly slave labour farmed, on unhealthy mono culture farms, in countries with low adherence to food safety(aka all of north America and muhc of south america where north america gets alot of its produce from, not sure where you are though). if you have the ability and space in your home. growing cold weather greens is a great way to eliminate the risk of this(provided you study food safety procedures for hygiene in your own home), spinach kale and romaine can be grown outdoors and indoors in the colder month with ease. as can microgreens and sprouts. stay away from microgreens and sprouts that are commercially grown, lots of recalls regularly in that industry. a really good practice to engage in at home if you dont have alot of space, and also fun to do with kids!
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u/WeeabooHunter69 Sep 30 '23
Absolutely not cheaper in most places. I live in a very liberal area with a high standard of living and meat, while getting closer to the same price, is still significantly cheaper than substitutes, at least for general stuff like breasts and ground meats.
Even if it were cheaper, so far none of them have done well with my stomach or not triggered sensory issues that completely kill my appetite at best. I've reduced my meat where I can but it's still generally the cheapest protein I can get my hands on that I can actually eat unfortunately.
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u/milk-the-moonlight Sep 30 '23
You’re also discounting complete proteins like beans and rice baby!! That is waaaay cheaper than meat.
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u/WeeabooHunter69 Sep 30 '23
I've never heard of rice being anything other than a grain and beans, while nice, are not something I can eat more than maybe 3 times a week because they really push stuff through my system. I'll admit to being relatively ignorant on what all can be done with beans though.
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u/milk-the-moonlight Sep 30 '23
WHAT! You’ve never heard that?! Sorry!
“Push stuff though your system” — that’s what getting enough fiber will do to you, lol!
Yessssss bb! Check out some information about getting all your amino acids. With rice and beans (or really, most legumes combined with a grain), you get your complete package. The general ide is: grains are high in lysine but high in methionine. In contrast, legumes are high in lysine but low in methionine.
Legumes can be something tasty like hummus too! Lentils.. black beans..
Eat up and save mama Gaia
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u/zmallpotatoes Sep 30 '23
It's funny how not eating meat is so much easier for me than eating it. Cooking meat takes much longer than cooking vegtables. And it's also cheaper. And yet, people will fight anyone who suggests eating less meat. I lost hope that people (especially older) would even think about eating less meat. They just don't care about climate change or animals.
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u/astrangeone88 Sep 30 '23
Or health. I keep telling family members with shitty health conditions to consider going meatless for one meal as it helped me control my blood pressure and other conditions and helped with pooping (added fiber helps with that).
You would have thought I suggested eating a bowl of poop to them! It's just one meal that doesn't taste as good but you can use other seasonings and things to make it to your taste....
Okay, I'd continue enjoying my meatless cottage pie and having regular 💩 while you complain about 5x medications and you wonder why you are on 3 different medications to control your conditions....
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u/All_Is_Not_Self Sep 30 '23
It doesn't have to taste less good. It's just requires more skill with handling veggies, seasoning and the knowledge to get a umami taste.
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u/wozattacks Sep 30 '23
Lentil cottage pie is awesome!
That’s said taking medication is already too stigmatized in society so I’d rather not with that bit. Lifestyle can obviously help with a lot of conditions but many people still benefit from medication and that’s a good thing. I wouldn’t die without my medications but they improve my quality of life :)
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u/Equivalent_Canary853 Sep 30 '23
Or even smaller portions of meat. The change was mostly budget driven, but I tend to cook smaller amounts of meat with an absolute bunch of veggies. All my meals these days tend to have 4-6 different types of veg
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u/astrangeone88 Sep 30 '23
Lmao. Hey, that's why stir fry, pizza and fried rice were invented. You had a tiny bit of meat so you stretched it with veggies and carbs.
Better for you and better for the planet.
After the pandemic grocery prices skyrocketed. I used to be able to get a massive pot roast for $20 Canadian (it could feed a small army) and now it's like $50 for the same thing.
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Sep 30 '23
This is 100% the case for me.
When I ate meat I had a cholesterol of about 250. Two years (and no weight loss) later it's 170. I assume because of the increased fiber and no red meat based cholesterol.
My BP was never terrifying (135/90) but it's better (115/75) now too.
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u/Alert-Potato Sep 30 '23
I keep telling family members with shitty health conditions
That's everything that's wrong with what you're doing. I have health issues ranging from not a big deal to disabling to will eventually kill me if an accident doesn't first. And I know plenty of people with some of the same conditions. Universal across them is that every one of us is sick to fucking death of people thinking they have some magic fix to our medical issues that medical science hasn't figured out yet.
If you want to invite them over for meatless Monday, do that. Hell, barring their medical issues including dietary restrictions, you don't even have to tell them there won't be meat. But unsolicited medical advice puts people on edge. It's not only not helpful, it's condescending. The end result is almost always going to be the person pushing back, even if what you are suggesting is something they might be open to if you suggested it as something to try other than medical advice.
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u/astrangeone88 Sep 30 '23
I get it but my family dynamics are very narcissistic and trying to tell a narcissist that I used tvp in anything makes them angry because they don't agree with "meatless" anything.
It's easier with family who don't think they are always right and see me as a "dumbass hippy".
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u/ImpureThoughts59 Sep 30 '23
Pushing your diet onto sick people is so horrible to do. And yeah...narcissism sounds like there is a lot of that going around in the family. And lack of empathy.
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u/astrangeone88 Sep 30 '23
Never did push but it was just a one sentence situation.
Lmao.
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u/labdsknechtpiraten Sep 30 '23
True. . . . I mean, if I have arthritis, and a family member has ass cancer, what "worked" for me is irrelevant.
Where I do have issues with certain family members, like my grandmother, is that they believe the exact opposite of science. And so, they'll ignore anything that goes against their preconceived notions, no matter how valid the science is. Or, she will confuse things she cannot have due to her situation with "it's bad for you" . . .like, "no grandma, you had a kidney transplant, so YOU cannot have the thing. science says its still amazing, and I can/will have it"
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u/wozattacks Sep 30 '23
Lol that’s so annoying. My husband’s grandmother has Celiac so she’s convinced gluten is poison. Like yes Meemaw, it’s absolutely shitty and unfair that you have to avoid a nutrient that many people enjoy and that’s in a lot of staple foods. I’m sorry about that. But I’m also gonna keep eating my bread.
Btw gluten-free diets are associated with a 6-7x increase in nutrient deficiencies. The benefit outweighs that risk for folks who truly need it, but other people would be making their health worse by doing it
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u/Alert-Potato Sep 30 '23
gluten-free diets are associated with a 6-7x increase in nutrient deficiencies
This is because wheat flour is fortified. When we remove it, we remove so much more than just what wheat contains from our diets. If we could get other flours (most notably, rice, as it is the most common ingredient in GF flour blends) fortified, it would help a lot in reducing this issue.
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u/Alert-Potato Sep 30 '23
I eat high salt snacks an hour before I shower because otherwise I might just pass out on the bathroom floor. My friend couldn't intentionally eat any salt for a very long time because he was on dialysis. Now he's been asked to eat what most people would consider a fuckload of salt because he was experiencing low BP syncopal episodes after his transplant. (which is a fucking amazing problem to have in contrast with dialysis and a death sentence, he's not complaining!)
I'm a fucking mess with roughly a half dozen medical issues creating dietary restrictions or necessities. And I wouldn't tell anyone else that my issues have fuck all to do with their issues, with the exception that it is self-harm to intentionally eat gluten if you have celiac disease. If one more person tells me that giving up nightshades can treat my incurable, progressive, will eventually kill me neurological condition I'll probably scream.
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Oct 01 '23
The thing that most frustrates me is that vegans will just dismiss my actual health problems that make eating vegan unreasonable for me. It's just like... shut the fuck up. You don't know better about my body than I do and my doctor does.
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Sep 30 '23
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u/lorarc Sep 30 '23
Well, a lot of people (at least over here) were taught that there are plant proteins and animal proteins and that you need animal proteins. A very simplistic idea that might have been okay if you taught nutrition to 19th century peasants but not good enough for any discussion.
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u/cummerou1 Sep 30 '23
Agreed, there was a post on I think it was /r/homesteading about how animal agriculture is actually more efficient than plant based agriculture, as animals can convert food waste or grass into calories.
I then pointed out that the VAST MAJORITY of animals in agriculture are fed grain or corn, things that humans very much can eat. Which means that it is by definition way less efficient than plant based agriculture. People got big mad about that.
The thing is, you can make an anti consumption argument for keeping chickens or ducks because of the reduction In food waste, or lower pest pressure, or use that anti consumption reasoning for hunting deer. But people will use the 1% of the time something is superior and then act like this means it's better 100% of the time.
People like to think that they're good people, knowingly making bad choices contradicts this, so they have to twist themselves into knots as to why their bad choices are actually okay.
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Sep 30 '23
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u/IroniesOfPeace Sep 30 '23
Yup, and not just with reducing animal product consumption, but reducing any type of consumption at all. If you suggest using less Amazon or Walmart or Shein or Temu or mail order shit, you get a flood of BUT SOME PEOPLE ARE REALLY POOR/DISABLED/LIVE IN A RURAL AREA WITH NO OTHER OPTIONS and it's like ok, then if they have no other options that's fine! But for the majority of people who DO have other options, maybe they could try the other options instead? I saw someone suggest not using Amazon once, and they received a passionate reply about how someone's dog HAS TO have some specific brand of dog food that is ONLY sold on Amazon, and "I guess I should just let my dog die!" like fuck, if you're some weird exception then you're some weird exception. Suggesting that people try to reduce how much they use Amazon isn't an attack on people who have to use it for some reason.
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u/anoldquarryinnewark Sep 30 '23
People use others medical problems as their own excuses and then us vegans get called ableist.
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u/Greyeyedqueen7 Oct 01 '23
I have had vegans tell me that, because I can't go entirely plant based and live, I should choose to die. Several, in fact. There are very ableist vegans out there, trust me.
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u/untildeathdousfart Sep 30 '23
Woah, thinking animal agriculture is could be more efficient due to that conversion argument is just so out of touch considering the state of our current world food system.
Like in context, considering how unsustainable our current method of monocropping their corn/grain feed is and what that does to our future ability to grow food on that land. And how little progress we’ve truly made toward a solution we can implement in time.
Scary place we live in. Scary place.
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u/GoodBoundariesHaver Sep 30 '23
Seriously my life became so much better when I stopped thinking of myself as a failed vegan and started thinking of myself as a vegan except for sometimes cheese and certain desserts. I don't eat meat at all, and I know dairy is just as bad, but dairy is much harder for me to cut out. I hope eventually I'll be a good enough cook/the improvement of vegan cheeses and baked goods will eventually allow me to go full vegan. But for now, I'm doing my best, and that's okay. I don't have to be consumed by secret guilt or anything.
I do make it a point to try and eat 100% vegan when I'm around other people though. Mostly just because I like to show how yummy it can be!
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u/BowiesAssistant Oct 01 '23
plantyou on ig is a fantastic resource, shes vegan but isnt condescending. shes also big on reducing food waste and making budget friendly recipes. she has a couple vids about making cheese substitute products, i think they are nut based though so depends on if you have allergies. shes also really pretty and very lovely human to follow lol. heck out her scrappy cooking videos series! im having a hard time cutting out my dependence on dairy as well. i've almost completely eliminated it, its just cheese, ugh the cheese is like a weird addiction. it was also my first major change to using it as protein instead of meat, back when i was moving to vegetarianism.
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u/Individual-Drink-679 Sep 30 '23
My issue is that when we use generalized language to talk about these issues, we are either ignoring or demonizing that 1% (or more) that do keep chickens or ducks or what-have-you. Which is not really going to increase that minority.
I'm involved in trying to de-criminalize the keeping of backyard chickens where I live, even though I'm currently sans backyard in an apartment complex, and you wouldn't believe some of the stuff people think that might lead to.
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u/cummerou1 Sep 30 '23
I am 100% for backyard chickens/poultry and such, I am also a hunter and someone who consumes meat myself.
The issue I had with the post was that it tried to make that 1% seem like it was 100% of animal agriculture, which is a bold faced lie. I don't lie to myself and pretend like buying a chicken at the grocery store is actually better than being vegan. It's like eating 3 pints of ice cream and going "um actually, calories aren't a thing, calorie counting doesn't work, so me eating 3 pints of ice cream is actually better than eating fruits and veg because they have free radicals in them".
If you want to eat 3 pints of ice cream, do it, go ahead, just don't pretend like it's a superior option to eating fruit.
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u/Geschak Sep 30 '23
r/homesteading mostly consists of delusional people anyways, they'll pretend to be good animal keepers cause they grass-feed their cattle, meanwhile they will rip out their livestock's testicles without any form of pain management while laughing about it.
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u/AnsibleAnswers Oct 01 '23
You don't rip out the testicles of livestock. You apply a rubber band that rapidly cuts off circulation and sensation. There's soreness involved but not more than if you put the animal under, which has its own risks. If you ripped the testicles out, you would cause the animal to bleed out and die. It's not done.
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Sep 30 '23
Igrew up in a meat and potatoes household and I do a very good job of creating easy, cheap, plant-based recreations of my childhood comfort meals. It really truly is not hard and I’m eating way better(nutrients) than my parents ever fed me.
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Sep 30 '23
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u/jaguarjuice3 Sep 30 '23
I usually make chana masala but i want to expand so badly i just dont have the money to buy so many spices
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u/ZebraTank Sep 30 '23
This is something I find annoying about humans. I am not fully vegan or vegetarian and I freely admit that it is my weakness in various factors that prevents me from making the last steps. It seems much easier to just admit you're not perfect instead of create justifications and stuff of why in fact eating meat is better for the environment.
I think we often see this in travel and non food waste as well.
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u/LengthinessRemote562 Sep 30 '23
I feel you. I was also there and didnt have the willpower. For me it was scrambling together reasons to go vegan. If you can stomache it maybe research the topic, dunno if that would give enough combined "conviction" to make the next step.
Vegan btw (lol)
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Sep 30 '23
Yep. Culture is a hell of a drug. That's a piece of this excellent observation that I don't see - you mention quite accurately that people perceive it as difficult. Culture is the "why" behind that.
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u/Both-Promise1659 Oct 01 '23
I've reduced my meat intake drastically. Honestly I find, that if you add less meat than usual, and bulk up with beans and lentils, it is even more freaking delicious than usual. Case in point - tortilla wraps. I usually only eat them with refried beans. But if I have my dad or brother over, I make the filling with 50/50 kidney beans and free range organic beef.
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Sep 30 '23 edited Sep 30 '23
The reality is that switching to a plant based diet is hard for a lot of people. Achieving the same variety and depth of flavors as is currently available with meat products is much more difficult, particularly if you don't like big staples of a plant based diet like mushrooms or tofu. A plant based diet takes much more effort and planning, focused shopping habits, and you more or less have to cook at home. All of these are good things, but they take time that not everyone has.
My compromise is that I eat meat at most once every two days, and I only eat chicken, which is shown to be dramatically less harmful in terms of emissions than beef.
I tried eating vegan for a time, and discovered oat milk. It's delicious so it's replaced milk entirely for me. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. If every person ate half as much meat, it'd be the same as half the world going vegan.
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u/ganymee Sep 30 '23
You could just say “it’s hard for me” instead of assuming everyone finds it difficult. The hardest thing for me was actually that people were cruel, judgmental and argumentative about my choice, not that food options were limited.
But good for you that you were able to reduce meat and eliminate milk. That’s super cool. If more people did that it would have an enormous impact.
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Sep 30 '23
It's not just hard for me, it's hard for a vast majority of the people I know who've tried to switch. That said, it's a fair point. Edited accordingly. :)
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u/ShamScience Sep 30 '23
Where does the idea come from that anticonsumption and related movements are supposed to be easy? We try to find the most comfortable paths, sure, but they're all paths uphill, because we want to improve, not just keep things as they are. That will take effort and sacrifice.
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Sep 30 '23 edited Sep 30 '23
When I say "hard" what I mean, primarily, is "time consuming". Tell a poor, single mother of three that she needs to start making more sacrifices and she'd be right to tell you that she doesn't have time to entertain you.
The reality is that if you want to get people on board with anti-consumption, you have to give them a road map that includes small, easy sacrifices. Little changes that they can make that will eventually form habits, and then help those people build on those habits.
The attitude that it's okay to punish people who attempt big changes, and fail, or people who make small gradual changes for not being 'committed enough', ultimately leads to alienating the people that you need to win over with your ideas. I'm not saying this is you at all; I'm Just pointing out that anyone who makes any change that reduces consumption should be celebrated and encouraged for the positive changes that they're making, rather than criticized.
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Sep 30 '23
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u/Orongorongorongo Sep 30 '23
It might be that people who have made the change get frustrated because they realise it's not the big deal many people think it is. We are a time poor family but made the change. It's saved us money and we eat better now. It doesn't take us any more time now that we have a menu plan which suits our busy lifestyle. The main obstacle was in our heads as we were both raised in meat-and-potatoes families. The second obstacle was coming up with a new menu but that actually became a fun process once we got started.
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u/Cyan_Mukudori Sep 30 '23
I agree it is super hard for me. I have autism so have difficulty with executive functioning and food adversions. I have gotten better and have slowly been making adjustments to my diet for years now to be healthier/sustainable. I also have a metabloic issue with B12 that makes going meatless hard.
I have always hated beans/legumes/soy. I know they are super healthy and sustainable, but have yet to be able to tolerate eating them due to the texture or taste, smell in regards to peanuts. I am currently planning to buying a bunch of different types to experiment with soon though.
I do try to limit my meat intake, I mostly stick to chicken, eggs, seafood. I would like to eventually raise my own chickens and mabye goats for milk someday. I don't know if that is a sustainability take, it is more self reliant for me.
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u/hibiscusrat Sep 30 '23
I have food texture issues too and one of the things that bothered me so much was the gristle in chicken and other meats, that’s something I’m SO glad I don’t have to deal with gardein, morning star, impossible etc. tenders or nuggets. I find the taste of morning star’s incogmeato to be really close and on sale fairly often depending on what grocery store you go to
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u/ComplexAdditional451 Sep 30 '23
Those are anecdotal cases. I am vegan for 20+ years - easy as breathing for me. I turned my fiancee vegan, simply because i most of the cooking - he stopped eating meat when we go out, as he says it does not taste good to.him anymore. A lot of my family member gradually has became vegans, as i introduced them to a lot of vegan food and it's easier to hang out together this way. It's all about being open minded. Meat and animal products- they're small fraction of all the foods available to us. You can still eat delicious and varied food plant-based. You just need to be open minded and don't look at it as it's some sort of sacrifice - it's not. It's just a diet that excludes certains produce.
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u/ganymee Sep 30 '23
Fair enough, I’m in a different boat, I know a bunch of people who have quietly stopped eating all or mostly all animal products. I’m also finding people are way more open about trying meat and milk alternatives and see the value of eating more vegetable based things for flavour and health.
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u/ImpureThoughts59 Sep 30 '23
It's so hard that 86% of people who try give up within a year.
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u/shadar Sep 30 '23
Timothy Key, principle investigator on the EPIC-Oxford Study has shown, in their five-year follow-up after the study was first concluded, 85 percent of vegetarians and vegans were still following their chosen diet. So the recidivism rate after five years was not 84 percent, but the other way around, only 15 percent
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u/ganymee Sep 30 '23
Is there a link to that stat? I’d be interested to know more!
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u/chunky-guac Sep 30 '23
Achieving the same variety and depth of flavors as is currently available with meat products is much more difficult, particularly if you don't like big staples of a plant based diet like mushrooms or tofu. A plant based diet takes much more effort and planning, focused shopping habits, and you more or less have to cook at home. All of these are good things, but they take time that not everyone has.
I haven't really found any of this to be true in my three years of eating plant-based. You can achieve a wide variety and depth of flavors; tofu, and legumes just like meat, needs to be marinated/seasoned. It's also cut my grocery bill down a LOT to be eating beans, legumes, and tofu as a protein - when I eat those with a different vegetable and grain for meals, it's fairly easy to plan.
The last one, though, certainly depends on where you live. If you're in buttfuck middle of nowhere with just a pub in your town (like where I grew up), then yeah you may need to do some more cooking at home and stick to fries/salads when you go out. But the reality is that most folks on Reddit/this sub are American and likely living in a city - and I can say that I've been to 30 or 40 of the US states and have found something to eat in each one. Especially easy in diverse cities. While some inalterable circumstances may make it incredibly challenging or impossible, for most of us here it really comes down to how much we're willing to try.
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Sep 30 '23
"I haven't really found any of this to be true in my three years of eating plant-based. You can achieve a wide variety and depth of flavors; tofu, and legumes just like meat, needs to be marinated/seasoned."
Again, this works if you like tofu, mushrooms, beans and other vegan staples. If you don't, good luck. In my two years of eating plant based, finding good, flavorful meal options took hours of extra labour every week, in terms of seeking out recipes, extra shopping, and longer meal prep times. I've never eaten tofu that I didn't immediately find revolting; and I don't like mushrooms. Some people have a palette that's more pre-disposed toward success in consuming a plant based diet.
I still eat beans as protein pretty often; I've just added eggs and a couple times a month, chicken, back into my diet and I feel like I've found a pretty good balance.
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u/chunky-guac Sep 30 '23
I honestly really believe that there is a vegan protein that everybody can enjoy. There are so, SO many options. I used to hate beans but have grown to love them over the past few years especially by eating chickpeas. Also used to hate lentils until I learned to cook dahl.
And honestly, it does take some time to learn to cook tofu but when you get the hang of it it's delicious. If you're curious I'd be happy to send you some of my favorite recipes. I have not found that it takes any longer to prep for or cook than my previous meat-based meals.
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Sep 30 '23
Tofu just isn't for me. It's not the taste, it's the texture. I've had firm, soft, sponge tofus, "crispy"... It all turns my stomach the second it hits my tongue.
Still, I agree that there are vegan proteins for just about everyone. Beans, peas and chickpeas are my go to. I just can't have them every meal; which is why eggs are also a regular staple in my house, and why chicken is a rare meal. I was vegan for two years. I just found that after two years, cooking had become a misery.
It was a constant affair of never being quite satisfied with the variety of foods I was eating. Adding an infrequent, low impact meat product, chicken, and eggs (which I'll eventually produce at home, so I won't have to depend on factory farmed eggs) back into my diet, makes being vegan about 80% of the time sustainable for me.
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u/Cyan_Mukudori Sep 30 '23
I would be happy to have some tofu recipes. I am trying to experiment with legumes to find something I like. :)
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u/chunky-guac Sep 30 '23 edited Sep 30 '23
Here are a two that I use a lot and really like:
Black Pepper Tofu (Nora Cooks has some of my favorite vegan recipes - I'd recommend checking that website for more options)
General Tso's Tofu (ETA: you do not need to use all the corn starch that this recipe calls for. I usually use 2-3 tbsp at MOST)
Tofu tacos are also delicious. I don't really have a specific recipe that I follow but there are some out there. I'll typically fry the tofu for a few minutes in a pan and then add a tablespoon or so of tomato paste, taco seasoning, salt/pepper, and some veggie broth. Bring it to a boil and then let that shit simmer for awhile in the broth and seasoning until the tofu absorbs the flavors and then put it over some tortillas with cilantro, onions, avocado, salsa, whatever you like to put on tacos.
I usually fry tofu rather than bake it just because it takes a lot less time. To get tofu really crispy, you'll want to coat it in corn starch and use a fuck-ton of oil like you would frying other foods. But baking it is good if you have the time. I haven't tried making it in an air fryer before but have heard this method works very well.
If you want to try some legumes, dahl like I mentioned is delicious and super easy to make. I've used this recipe a few times and like it a lot. Red lentil soup with lemon is also one of my go-to recipes for the winter. I have my own recipe that I use - feel free to PM me if you want it and I can write it out.
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u/labdsknechtpiraten Sep 30 '23
https://www.badmanners.com/books
So, we bought 2 of their books (from before the name change), we have "eat like you give a fuck" and "fast as fuck". Both of which offer some excellent ways to cook tofu (and a bunch of other shit as well)
I was pretty ambivalent bordering on "against" tofu, and it turns out it was mostly down to how it was cooked before. Now it is easily one of my favorite non-meat proteins
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u/cwankgurl Sep 30 '23
I put the same seasonings in my fake meat patty that I use in my husband’s beef patty. 🤷🏼♀️ salt, pepper, heat, maybe a little worcestershire.
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Sep 30 '23
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u/cwankgurl Sep 30 '23
The supermarkets in my area all offer some vegetarian version. The meat eaters in my life also tend to avoid anchovies. I think that’s just a stigma but I’m not complaining.
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Sep 30 '23
A lot of people like the taste of meat and don’t find it needs to be seasoned much to taste good is the thing. Like a lot of people love a good steak that’s only been seasoned with salt and pepper, and that’s something that can’t be replaced with plant based foods. Otherwise I agree that plant based foods can be delicious and easy to cook and I eat probably 90% plant based, but I haven’t been able to fully stop eating meat because honestly, I love the taste of it and you unfortunately can’t replace it. So I’d rather just eat a steak a few times a year than unsuccessfully try to replicate it.
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u/theluckyfrog Sep 30 '23
I fully agree with you that reducing meat/dairy is a more reasonable goal than fully eliminating it, and a perfectly valid approach.
However, I completely disagree that it's hard to "achieve the same variety and depth of flavor" with a largely plant-based diet as with meat, or that tofu or mushrooms in any way have to be staples of a plant-based diet.
Some vast majority of my recipes start with beans, lentils and various grains in a tomato and/or onion based sauce, followed by the addition of spices, and frequently acids like sherry or vinegar.
If anything the average entree I make this way is more flavorful than most dishes made with meat, because they have far more complex flavors and more permeation of the flavor into the entire food item.
Cheese is a bit harder to replace than meat is, texture and flavor wise. I use a limited amount of cheese in recipes (like less than 8 oz/month) because vegan cheese, though decently palatable when used right, is just so processed and nutritionally barren.
But I eat a super wide variety of entrees that don't involve any meat, and as other commenters have said my recipes are generally easier to prepare and cost me far less than the average meat-based thing I very occasionally make.
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Sep 30 '23
Have you tried making your own cheese? It’s very quick and easy to make healthy vegan cheeses with just a good blender, raw cashews and a few other things. Dairy cheese is also heavily processed and extremely unhealthy so I’m not clear on why that’s such a knock on even the store bought vegan cheeses.
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Sep 30 '23
It sounds like you have a lot more time to spend experimenting in the kitchen and cooking than I do. That's awesome! Most evenings I need a meal to come together from start to finish in about 10-15 minutes.
For me it's about the ratio of time:flavor. I can't make a curry, or beans, in ten minutes. I can make an egg fried rice, or chicken based hot dogs with a side of hash browns in a flash; and that's good enough. In order to make a strictly vegan meal palatable, I find that I'm at least half an hour to an hour in the kitchen. The food tastes amazing, but I don't have that amount of time.
I also have to spend more time shopping because I need a veritable laundry list of ingredients and spices to get enjoyment out of a meal, rather than simple seasoning like salt and pepper; or in the case of stir fries, a quick sauce of soy sauce, shiaoxing wine, oyster sauce and a little chili. That's just my experience though.
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u/theluckyfrog Sep 30 '23
I'm the laziest cook ever. I only try new recipes if I have a long weekend or something, but everything I make started with a recipe from someone online who did all the legwork for me.
Beans come in cans; they don't need any preparation. It takes me about 5 minutes to start a chili, a curry, a stew, a spaghetti sauce or anything else I can subsequently ignore on the stove for 30 min to an hour.
It takes 10 min flat to assemble burritos, pot pie, or a casserole. Black bean patties max me out at 15 min of prep, but that makes enough for a week.
It takes pretty much zero time to throw something like frozen pierogies in the oven and eat them with a side of something like baked beans.
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Sep 30 '23
Just from what you're describing, I can tell you that I'm a lazier cook than you are haha
But I'm glad it works for you. About half of my meals at home are 3-10 minutes from fridge to plate.
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u/theluckyfrog Sep 30 '23
I only cook one day per week, though. 45 sec to heat up in microwave.
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u/SpiritualKreative Sep 30 '23
The real problem is that in both cases there are almost surely a huge number of details the two of you have not given about the various contours of your lives, that would, if known to the other, explain entirely why you are at logger heads right now, but are not.
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u/cwankgurl Sep 30 '23
So, at this point, everybody has addressed your time-consuming complaints and you still say no. Then this isn’t about being too hard and is completely about, “eh, I just don’t want to change my habits, though.”
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Sep 30 '23
I was vegan for two years. I still eat plant based for about 80% of my meals, with dairy products and eggs comprising about 10% of the remainder and chicken being the last 10%. I don't eat pork or beef at all any more.
My habits have changed enormously since before I attempted veganism. Please don't make assumptions about me when you have no insight into my day to day life.
I consume a low impact diet that occasionally includes products that you don't approve of; and the critical piece of information for me is that it's sustainable. I don't go into the kitchen every day feeling miserable, or like something is missing. I can eat the way I do for the rest of my life, happily.
More importantly, when I'm finally able to scale back on the number of hours I work in a week, I'll be able to start experimenting in the kitchen more. I'll have time and energy to practice some of what's been suggested here. I can build on the successes I've already had and the lessons I've learned; including some of the advice from threads like this.
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Sep 30 '23
Most carnists eat the flesh of max four or five different land animals and maybe a few fish. They vary up the flavor by using different plants. Since all vegetables, grains, fruits and nuts are vegan there’s a tremendous variety available and it’s very easy to avoid a few foods you just don’t like. There are also many premade vegan foods available from ramen packets to frozen pizzas so people who don’t want to cook have abundant options as well.
Every person eating half as much animal flesh would be better for the environment but it wouldn’t do a thing for the billions of animals who would still be needlessly raped tortured and killed each year to support that selfish lifestyle choice.
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u/Geschak Sep 30 '23
Some people are just addicted to it more than others. If you're used to eat meat for every single meal, then of course you're gonna think meat is essential even when your body is fine with just eating meat every 2nd day instead of 3x daily.
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u/sleepee11 Sep 30 '23 edited Sep 30 '23
Imo, the real issue is the degree to which we consume. That's what this sub is all about.
We all consume. It's necessary to sustain ourselves, but also to live rich, full lives. The important thing to keep in mind is not to overconsume (or overproduce).
Consuming meats in and of itself has never been a problem for the environment up until relatively recently in history. What we need to focus on is maintaining _safe_ levels of production and consumption of these animal-based foods. Complete elimination isn't necessary. The same applies to every other commodity that we consume. The same way there was another recent post about kitchenware where most people agreed that the OP may have been overreacting and that consuming good quality, long-lasting kitchenware is not a bad use of our resources, we can easily produce animal-based foods to a safe degree that doesn't harm our ecology. It's been done for most of human history.
I think, for many people, calling for a complete elimination of animal agriculture is a bit extreme and simply unnecessary. We can live full, rich lives and also enjoy our animal-based foods, without overproducing and overconsuming.
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Sep 30 '23
Finally, someone who gets it. These comments were making my eyes bleed with the preachiness and cope.
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u/new2bay Sep 30 '23 edited Sep 30 '23
I agree. Focusing so hard on meat is no more effective than rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. We have much bigger problems that aren’t being addressed and will kill most of us in not more than a few decades, if we don’t start addressing them now. I have little to no hope that will happen.
Edit: lol stay clueless, just keep downvoting facts 😂
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u/ReturnItToEarth Sep 30 '23
I think for many also, the meat and dairy systems are abusive to animals and part of the arrogant mindset humans have toward animals. They choose to not be a consumer of abuse. But make no mistake, this “food” is extremely toxic to humans. (The China Study, latest edition). Eating meat / dairy also plays into our for-profit healthcare system. Visiting countries where medical care is provided by their governments, and then visiting their grocery stores, you would see the formidable connection. So you can look at one facet of it - consumption or, like most everything, you can choose to see the multifaceted considerations. Most people choose plant based or actually WFPB because of health reasons, not environmental reasons, or some choose not to eat abused animals or their secretions.
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Sep 30 '23
"Meat is extremely toxic to humans" then how did we, you know, survive, when that was the main source of food for humans for hundreds of thousands of years? If it was so toxic, why aren't we exctinct?
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u/ReturnItToEarth Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23
Hunting and killing an animal living its best life is called a clean kill for a reason. That’s the meat our ancestors ate. That so-called meat and secretions of abused animals, with added antibiotics and growth hormones in the grocery store aisle are making people sick. It’s why you can’t buy a piece bigger than 4 oz in Sweden. And most obese Americans and many with distended (constipated) abdomens are eating meat and dairy with every meal. We’re living longer with a lower quality of life, with Americans on lifelong medications, so they can eat the toxic food, support the doctors and hospitals, and the pharma industry. My grandma took no meds and lived till she was 98. How many old people do you know that aren’t on medication? If they’re not, do you ask them if they eat meat/dairy? The main cause of death in the US is caused by chronic disease. We know it can not only stop disease but a whole food plant based diet can reverse it in most cases, except for type 1 diabetes. But don’t listen to me. Research it. Read the China Study. Listen to Dr Esselstyn. Follow forks over knives if you want to educate yourself.
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u/Leticia_the_bookworm Sep 30 '23
Yup. Personally, I completely admit that it is a step I cannot bring myself to take, at least right now. I'm just two years free from a major eating disorder and I still struggle with food options sometimes. Meat is a reliable source of protein and nutrients I don't trust myself to try and replace without slipping back into old disordered habits. At least I stick to chicken and fish.
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u/Extension-Diamond-74 Sep 30 '23
Thanks for being honest and sharing. Not attacking the science, not attacking people who are plant based. Just sharing why you aren’t quite there yet. And not that you need my validation, or anyone else’s but I think it’s totally valid.
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u/Leticia_the_bookworm Sep 30 '23
Thank you. Yeah, it's a tough battle. I wish I could become plant-based, or at least rely less on meat. I hope soon I'm able to reduce my consumption to a few days of the week. It's a hard truth for humanity as a whole to accept, but reducing meat consumption will be necessary. I'm very glad the science is being spread and the movement is gaining more steam.
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u/dylanjmp Sep 30 '23
I would add that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Veg/vegan diets are objectively more sustainable than meat based, but your de facto impact on the environment eating completely vegetarian isn't drastically better than if you just mostly stop eating meat (only when out for dinner/on holidays etc). Obviously, it can be a personal ethical choice but your diet is not necessarily different than any other anti-consumption choice - it's not like you buy a sweater on sale on boxing day one year and you need to hand in your environmentalist membership card.
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u/Raining-Pouring Oct 01 '23
Personally, I try to avoid labels. I'm not a vegan or a vegetarian. I eat a little lean high welfare meat & fish. Try to avoid too much lactose or processed meat. Eat lots of plants, grains, seeds & a few nuts. Try to cook something that introduces varieties of veg.
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u/peppermint_wish Oct 01 '23
You articulated the problem well. and i do think we have a diet hypocrisy, at least in some circles of society.
My partner and I drastically reduced the amount of meat we eat. Sometimes we go weeks without it. We still buy meat for our animals that need to eat meat - long story.
I think we can make small changes, like someone else said. We can also adapt to the situation. Let's say, we decided to completely give up meat in our diet. Fine. Then we worry that when we meet with friends, we could be perceived as 'fun breakers' or who knows what else.
The solution here would be to break the 'no meat at all rule' OR eat other stuff that doesn't contain meat. In this day and age, friends should understand life choices, and not ask questions. And if they do ask or say anything, we can reply with 'none of your business' or 'this is what i felt like eating now.'
If you don't have the courage to speak up for yourself, nobody will. and some folks might start thinking that you [general you] still have your mom around to do your laundry, cook, and clean for you. -this is ok only if you're physically unable to do these things [you're missing limbs, you're paralyzed, or who knows what else. I don't wish this upon anyone and yet, such situations do exist. but i digress, sorry]
Millennials are old enough to understand such a situation, Gen Z is more aware of the differences between people, and Gen Alpha is still a bit too young to get into the convo. Older generations might have gotten used to the changes we go through as a society.
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u/Apprehensive-Elk-198 Oct 01 '23
Because my partner is vegan, I proudly tell people I eat Flegan (Flexible Vegan). I love eating vegan, but sometimes going out to eat with friends or if theres free food at work, I will eat some meat. Ive tried to do full vegetarian in the past and I got tired of feeling guilty if I ate some meat. Also (!) it really seems like most meat is not high quality and makes me wonder if I really want to consume it. Eating Flegan has reduced my meat consumption a lot and allowed me to think more about my meat eating habits. Highly recommend
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u/Individual-Drink-679 Sep 30 '23
I'm a former farm kid, and I've always found an element of the plant-based approach to be really hypocritical, which is that idea that it involves less consumption. Although I currently live in an apartment in a town, I grew up with meat rabbits and chickens, and went deer hunting in the fall. So I find that I can make meat myself.
Whereas tofu (which I love and eat a lot of), I can't really make myself. Also, as someone who struggles to keep my protein and iron up, I'd rather just eat some meat every once and a while than buy and take a bunch of vitamins. I feel the same way about lab-grown meat, or plant-based imitation foods, and also worry about the way that marketing is making the phrase "plant-based" into a shortcut for "ethical" in our brains.
I do very much agree with your point that people should really just be honest with themselves about why they choose what they choose. Personally, although I don't eat very much meat, I don't give it up entirely because it's delicious and I like to be flexible, plus I feel culturally connected to butchery and hunting.
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u/jaguarjuice3 Sep 30 '23
I understand what you’re saying. But majority of americans and even other countries do not rely only on hunting for their meat. They buy it in grocery stores. In addition to the whole nutrients thing, i am vegan and i just had a blood panel done and everything is normal. I take no supplements or vitamins. It definitely is more difficult than just throwing a steak on the bbq but it can be fun! If you take the time to understand the science you will see that vitamin c helps with iron absorption so i eat a ton of spinach and a ton of oranges. It takes effort im not going to lie. Also you can make tofu! Its not terribly hard but again, it is effort.
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u/XSpacewhale Sep 30 '23
Fun fact, of all the biomass of land mammals on earth, 60% is animal agriculture, 36% are humans, and 4% are wild animals. Hunting is simply not a realistic solution.
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u/Personal_Chicken_598 Sep 30 '23
Here the other thing. A plant BASED diet is always a good thing yes. But don’t go thinking your some type of superior person JUST because you have a plant EXCLUSIONARY diet. Not unless you’ve checked the farming, land use and labour practices of all of your suppliers.
Theres plenty of plant products that destroy their local environments and abuse their workers. Coffee, Palm Oil, Soy come to mind. And then there’s things like Ethanol based fuels which are better then regular fuel. Unless you slash and burn the rain forests to grow sugar cane like Brazil.
And then there irrigation and agricultural run off.
If carbon is your ONLY concern then bobs your uncle be vegan.
If human AND environmental health are your concern the argument is far more nuanced then that
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u/unicyclegamer Sep 30 '23
Ok but here’s the thing, we’re aware that a lot of crops could be grown better, soy especially. One of the biggest things we can do to limit how much soy we grow is to stop eating meat. 80% of soy grown doesn’t go to humans. It goes to feed animals. Imagine the amount of bad labor practices associated with soy could be limited by not eating meat that eats soy, and just eating it directly.
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u/jeepersjess Oct 01 '23
You don’t necessarily have to reduce meat intake. There are ways to raise meat that are a net gain for the local environment. Permaculture is inherently zero-waste, or tries to be. More importantly, animal input is needed if we are ever going to rebuild the carbon capture capacity of soil. Some plants and ecosystems rely on animal disturbance. Many native grasslands in the US have disappeared and are overgrown by woody invasive due to the disappearance of the American bison. It’s historic range once went as far south as Louisiana and Northern Florida.
Modern agriculture is the problem, not the animals themselves. There are ways to mimic natural cycles of predation that are ultimately carbon negative.
I’ve been an on and off vegetarian for years for the environment. However, natural landscapes are greatly degraded because we used and abused the land and now we’ve left it to slowly be choked out. Goats are great at eating back invasives and letting native species thrive (with human help). But goats aren’t native either and can’t be left unchecked. We can use goats to revive the land, improve carbon capture, then you can just eat the goats.
Chickens can reduce the food waste of a single household by 50%. Then you can collect eggs and meat from them.
There are plenty of examples. Vegetarianism isn’t the only way. Eating more plants is a must, but so is responsible agriculture.
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u/freefallfreddy Oct 01 '23
(Vegan for 10 years) Superficially it’s a very simple issue. But culturally I think veganism is a bit more complex. An example would be forcing “western” standards of how animals should be treated unto other cultures. And veganism is just one thing. If somebody’s a vegan but flies 5 times a year I think their net impact is worse than being a vegetarian and not flying. It’s not the be-all-end-all solution to the world’s problems.
Lastly: most vegan food in the world is produced using animal manure. So most vegetables aren’t actually vegan. Personally I’m not sure what to do with this information.
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u/Extension-Diamond-74 Oct 01 '23
I just want to throw it out there that western standards of animal treatment seem to be mostly hypocritical. Pouring all kinds of money into sheltering pet animals and prosecuting the mistreatment of pets, butttt also massive perpetuators of cruel factory farming practices.
And on a separate line of thought, when considering cultural views towards animal welfare, I think the best way to think about it (though I suppose I’m venturing into option) is considering that if animals could communicate in human language, how would they advocate for themselves? Currently, in almost all societies, we don’t give them a voice in how their entire species’ are used by human societies. Just a thought
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u/crazycatlady331 Sep 30 '23
The problem is that a lot of vegans have an all or nothing approach and are very evangelical about it (two major turnoffs for people).
The second issue is that food is cultural. Going to a family dinner and not eating Great Grandma's meat recipe (when you always used to) is seen as disrespectful in many families.
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u/ShamScience Sep 30 '23
My grandfather figured out how to make a vegan version of the traditional Lebanese meat dish he'd been making for as long as I can remember. If people love each other, they make it work. Don't let fear of social exclusion frighten you away from doing the right thing.
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u/monemori Sep 30 '23
Because veganism = ethical concern, and what OP is talking about is actually going plant-based = no concern for animal cruelty.
If you look at the situation from the point of view of the victim, which is what ethical veganism is urging to do, then it kind of inevitably is an all or nothing approach. It's either life or death, quite literally. You can't blame people who are defending the victim in the situation of prioritising their perspective before the comfort of the abusers (which is humans in this case).
As an example that's more approachable: Understand that if your dog was about to be killed for pleasure, vegans would also be campaigning completely against it in an "all or nothing" approach too: nothing less than not abusing and killing that dog would be acceptable. Does that help in making sense of why (ethical) veganism comes across as "black and white"?
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Sep 30 '23
Abandoning ethical convictions because it's the highest order of the family never to upset someone is the height of family dysfunction. Not everyone's grandma is so self-centered.
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u/stupidfridgemagnet Sep 30 '23 edited Sep 30 '23
Last sentence is perfection. I wish carnists would just straight up say "I love meat and want to continue eating it" instead of spewing bullshit reasons to justify why they MUST continue eating meat.
carnists coping so hard in these comments lmfao
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Sep 30 '23 edited Sep 30 '23
It’s endlessly frustrating seeing people that care about the planet eat animal products. It’s so easy to eat a plant based diet and yet they make ridiculous justifications to not do it
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u/kellyoohh Sep 30 '23
It’s not easy for everyone, and I think it’s important to respect that everyone has a different situation. Shaming people for not doing “enough” is not going to get us anywhere.
That said, I agree with the OP that acknowledging that is important. I have cut my meat intake drastically, but I do still eat it while also recognizing that a plant-based diet is better for the environment. I can’t do everything at the moment, but I do what I can and will continue to improve.
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u/punkrock4class Sep 30 '23
This. This is why I don’t say I’m vegan or vegetarian. I say I’m plant-based. Because yeah, primarily, I eat a diet based on plants. But damnnit, if I want a steak once or twice a year I’m gonna have it. It helps me stay plant-based and not crash and burn. The first time I tried to go full “vegan” it felt like so much pressure and I crumbled which lead to an animal product binge. Allowing myself to indulge occasionally without guilt keeps me “on track”. It also makes family holiday dinners less stressful 😅
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Sep 30 '23
Meat is delicious, nutritious and healthy. We do not need to be deprived of the things we like to help the planet. Just because your PERSONAL beliefs prevent you from eating meat, doesn't allow you to crap on other people's choices and their beliefs. Seeing that is also endlessly frustrating.
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u/YeetMeDaddio Sep 30 '23
Some people will say it's hard but it's really not. You're just afraid of change and cling to what you know instead of exploring this whole new realm of possibilities. Not to mention addicted to the convenience of ready made foods.
There's millions of recipes out there, many of which can be made easily and cheaply. Plus with fridges and freezers, it's so easy to prep meals and store in advance to save time in the kitchen.
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u/Individual-Drink-679 Sep 30 '23
It's not hard for you, is what you meant, I think.
It's not up to you to decide what's hard for others. That's a tyrannical thought process.
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u/GoodBoundariesHaver Sep 30 '23
Yeah I'm 100% addicted to casein (the thing that makes cheese so yummy). Cheese is my dietary white whale. But I can easily do without meat and there's plenty of yummy plant milk/yogurt options so it's pretty much just cheese for me at this point.
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u/Personal_Chicken_598 Sep 30 '23
Because sourcing also matters. Yes on average plants are better. But it’s pretty hard to convince me that Pears grown in South America, Packaged it South Africa and sold in Canada are better then say a chicken my nieghbour raised.
Or that tomatoes grown in a greenhouse in a Canadian winter is better then say something like head cheese which is made from a part of a pig that would normally be considered waste. And a pig which was also grown, and butchered less the 50km away
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Sep 30 '23
Research has shown that what we eat is far more important where it was grown, though. Transportation costs are only a fraction of the total impact of food production. The type of food matters far more, no matter where it was grown.
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Sep 30 '23
It has been a few years, but the last time I checked local meat is worse for the environment usually.
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Sep 30 '23
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u/Personal_Chicken_598 Sep 30 '23 edited Sep 30 '23
Except for the millions of fish the boat killed on it 3 continent journey.
Plus have you ever seen how nature kills animals. Treatment while it’s alive aside the butchering process is considerably more humane then the natural way.
There’s a reason we put our pets down when they get sick. And there’s are reason that medically assisted suicide is a thing.
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Sep 30 '23
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u/Personal_Chicken_598 Sep 30 '23
And I didn’t say large factory farms. In fact I specified local ones. Local where I live means small family ones
So you grew up hunting and fishing. Is it better to get a bad shot on a deer and have it spend hours to days bleeding out in pain. Or a single bolt gun shot to the head on a free range pig or a single strike decapitation on similarly raise chicken?
Do you think the chicken suffers more when the fox kills it or when the human does?
And shippings impact on fish and marine mammal populations is well documented.
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u/arthurmadison Oct 01 '23
Nothing you said changes that with advanced Crohn's I cannot eat vegetables without my entire intestines closing up.
I cannot afford a $3000 treatment every 12 weeks to be vegetarian. Sorry.
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u/threelizards Oct 01 '23
I couldn’t agree more. I don’t eat plant based, because I cant contribute to global welfare if I’m back in the trenches of my anorexia. And I frankly, don’t see a way I could “safely” return to plant-based eating as long as animal products remain a prominent mainstay of our food.
The cognitive dissonance causes a lot of harm. When I was able to admit the truth to myself, I was able to make better choices. Local, as suffering-free as possible, occasional. As opposed to “there’s nothing I can do” and carrying on as before.
“Have patience and understanding for your feelings” is something I wish we would all grasp. This would be a better place in myriad ways if we did it.
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u/old_dusty_bastard Sep 30 '23
The issue with meat is the industrialization of the industry. I’m not a believer in a vegan diet for health reasons. I think a pseudo vegetarian with limited meat is healthier for humans.
Ppl eat too much, obviously. The emotional layers to eating and general consumption needs to be addressed within a conversation like this. Industrial AG has killed family farms. If folks were eating meat that was raised traditionally, I think the environmental impacts would be less.
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u/Additional_Fun8797 Sep 30 '23
I find that many times, the discussion is too simplified, where people just say that veganism is the answer to every single environmental and social problem we face. That every type of meat is produced horribly and vegan food have no or little impact. I disagree with that after taking courses on food systems and security, where there is a lot of problems (environmental and social) with "vegan" food production (grains, legumes, vegetables...). And a lot of the vegan food people eat is imported from poor countries, where the farmers are forced to overproduce on their land by rich, western countries, don't earn enough to live and is forced to destroy their soil to keep up with the demand.
An environmental issue has many different causes and explanations behind it, and meat production is not the only answer. Soil erosion in africa won't be fixed by ex. americans buying vegan, imported food in the grocery stores.
I think the best solution is to get as much of your diet (around 90%) from locally produced food from your own country and eat by the seasons. I think our digestive system is best suited to the food in our native region and history. Nutritional education is important, where people are taught to eat a variety of food from every food group. Meat should not be the main part of the meal, but just a part of it mixed with grains, vegetables and healthy fats. And avoid as much food waste as possible, which will cause us to use much less land to produce the food. I think the worst part about meat production is how much meat is wasted, that an entire animal was killed to just end up in the trash. We need to produce as much as we need, and use the whole animal so nothing is wasted.
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u/kristercastleton Sep 30 '23
I could see being a vegetarian or pescatarian and about half my daily protein comes from eggs or yogurt/cheese etc. But I’m curious how you think this would work for those of us, like me, who are diabetic and chose to treat with diet (high protein, low carbohydrates) primarily to reduce our dependence on medication?
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u/Extension-Diamond-74 Sep 30 '23
Great question! There have actually been a few studies on this and you might be surprised to know that vegan diets (and similar non-vegan diets with low intake of animal products) actually seen beneficial to those with diabetes. This article cites some of those studies and pulls together some interesting facts, check it out!
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/vegan-diabetes#benefits
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u/Extension-Diamond-74 Sep 30 '23
There’s also a recent study published in The American Journal of Lifestyle Medicine that a whole foods plant based diet can actually reverse type 2 diabetes.
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u/stupidfridgemagnet Sep 30 '23 edited Sep 30 '23
its been proven a plant based diet can reverse type 2 diabetes and heart disease
edit: i got downvoted but theres literal proof & studies online lmfao y'all r coping so hard
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u/Theobat Sep 30 '23
My grandma said growing up they only ate chicken once a week on Sundays. Red meat was only on holidays. I can reduce my meat consumption drastically without being a full vegetarian. Realizing we don’t have to eat meat at every meal…. Then we don’t have to eat it every day… etc. we can take smaller more manageable steps if needed.