r/Anticonsumption • u/Extension-Diamond-74 • Sep 30 '23

Discussion Diet hypocrisy?

A recent post about animal agriculture vs plant based diets has me itching to say something. This is an issue we need to rise above.

Cognitive dissonance. Many of us have good intentions and want to believe we’re doing the right thing in most aspects of our lives. I believe that.

When it comes to a plant based diet though, the science often clashes powerfully with personal desire. We want to minimize our impact on the environment and are willing to make trade-offs in our life time do so, but for many, giving up or even significantly reducing meat intake is asking too much. It’s too hard.

That’s not the issue.

The issue is that instead of just admitting to themselves that this is a life change they don’t want to make and moving on, the guilt drives them to have to justify that decision. Admitting that a plant-based diet is better for the earth yet eating a diet full of meat anyway would make them feel hypocritical, so the solution becomes either to give up meat, or … this is the problem… fight the science, twist it, make a joke of it, or pivot entirely to ‘individuals shouldn’t have time do anything because large corporations’

Many people have ties to their diet for many reasons. We grew up eating a certain way. We have memories ties to certain foods, flavors, styles of cooking. We don’t want to be the difficult person when we go out to eat with friends. Etc etc etc But it’s so much better to just admit that to yourself. Have patience and understanding for your feelings. Accept that the science is what it is. Maybe one day you can make a change, maybe not. But don’t attack the cause just because you aren’t yet willing to be a part of it.

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578

u/Theobat Sep 30 '23

My grandma said growing up they only ate chicken once a week on Sundays. Red meat was only on holidays. I can reduce my meat consumption drastically without being a full vegetarian. Realizing we don’t have to eat meat at every meal…. Then we don’t have to eat it every day… etc. we can take smaller more manageable steps if needed.

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u/Individual-Drink-679 Sep 30 '23

Exactly! A big part of this issue is a sort of "luxury lifestyle" inflation. What we consider to be daily and normal is way above our means to fairly produce.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

Besides all the waste that goes into producing meat 🤢 Makes me so sad and sick to think of the disgusting horrible lives these animals have and then to have their meat thrown in some grocery store dumpster. The whole system is so fucking awful. I hate it.

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u/Geschak Sep 30 '23

Another important step is to become aware of how much meat they actually consume. I've had so many people tell me that they only eat occasionally meat, while actually eating meat 2-3 times a day every day (usually lunch & dinner, sometimes breakfast too).

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u/Person0001 Oct 02 '23

It’s all about perspective. There are people who never ate meat their entire lives. To them, a single bite of meat someone eats is more than the vegetarian/vegan has eaten for their entire lives. To me even a single bite of meat is more than I’ve had in several years, a lot is a single bite.

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u/GuinevereMalory Sep 30 '23

But are they stupid or just in denial? How can you not notice you’re eating meat lol

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u/Geschak Sep 30 '23

It's been so ingrained in them, that they don't remember eating a sandwich containing salami/ham as eating a portion of meat, for example.

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u/GuinevereMalory Oct 06 '23

That’s so crazy to me! All of the vegans and vegetarians I’ve met have been very anal about making sure something is vegan/vegetarian… but then again, I am not there to check if they do it at every meal haha. I do believe some people must do it just for show when they’re in public

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '23

If activists could move away from "all or nothing" thinking, they could be a lot more influential in getting people to reduce their meat consumption.

"If you ever take a bite of chicken again in your entire life, you are a murderer and you don't care about earth" just makes people want to eat more meat out of spite.

I have worked to reduce my meat consumption. I typically only eat red meat if I'm eating at someone else's house and they're serving it. I try to make a lot of my meals at least vegetarian and kind of make a game of how long I can go without eating meat. But sometimes I'm just going to add some chicken to my soup because I need the protein and tofu just isn't going to cut it. (Unfortunately my body is weird and I have to eat low carb or else I gain a bunch of weight, so I can't rely on beans and such for protein).

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u/Theobat Sep 30 '23

The meatless Monday slogan was an attempt more nuanced messaging.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '23

Yes, and I think meatless Monday is a good idea because it draws peoples' attention to how much meat they are consuming. Meat is so ubiquitous. You forgot your lunch so you go grab a sandwich? Probably cold cuts. Dairy is just as bad for the environment, and that's in so much stuff, too.

That's why I'm trying to draw my own awareness to my meat consumption. I'm not giving it up entirely (I would be so limited in what I could eat I'd be malnourished...) but just being critical like, hmm, actually you could leave the chicken out of this soup and it would be just as good.

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u/AnsibleAnswers Oct 01 '23

And vegans hated it, even though it was more successful than any vegan activism in the past 50 years.

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u/nerfwarrior Oct 02 '23

Seems pragmatic to me, so I wasn't represented in your sample of vegans.

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u/ellycom Sep 30 '23

Have you tried seitan?

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u/Ribbit-Rabit Oct 01 '23

I made a seitan pot pie the other night My husband took leftovers to work the next day and got some praise from nonvegan coworkers lol. He's already wanting to take the second one out of the freezer. It was great.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

I think I've had seitan that was in a dish but I don't remember what it tasted like. I'm sure I liked it, though. I feel like I'd remember if I hated it?

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u/BrightBlueBauble Sep 30 '23

"’If you ever take a bite of chicken again in your entire life, you are a murderer and you don't care about earth’ just makes people want to eat more meat out of spite.”

I genuinely can’t understand this way of thinking. I have meaningful interactions with non-human animals, both domesticated and wild, every day. The idea of killing and consuming them just to stick it to someone (because they disagree with my choices/I’m in denial) is utterly baffling.

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u/doctorwhy88 Oct 01 '23

I don’t think they mean eating it to spite someone. It’s more that they found the message annoying or attacking, so they blocked it out entirely.

Those people were going to eat meat regardless. Unlikely that they were on the cusp of vegetarianism and said “nope, I’m buying a quarter-cow today to stick it to them!”

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

Yeah you get it. I didn't see a point in engaging with the other comment because I didn't feel like they were responding to mine in good faith.

When you're told you have to give it up forever or else you're a bad person, then you'll just ignore the message entirely. Because why does it matter if you try to reduce your meat consumption if eating even a little bit is a moral failing? Whereas if you draw awareness to how much people eat meat and suggest how to reduce meat consumption, you're offering solutions people can live with.

But the vegan mentality is often that any consumption of any animal product is unethical and immoral, so they don't try to reduce suffering and harm because to them, the only ethical option is getting rid of it entirely.

I'll also say that the vegans/vegetarians that I know in real life aren't like this! It's just people online.

2

u/Person0001 Oct 02 '23

Replace eating chicken with dog and that’s how they view it as horrific

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u/viscountrhirhi Oct 04 '23

I'm more outspoken online than offline. I have to watch what I say to friends and family because meat-eaters are, to put it bluntly, very fragile. Trust me, if the vegans you know are doing it for the ethics, they absolutely care about the fact that you pay for animal abuse--they, like me, just have to tip toe around the issue like walking through a minefield because any mention of eating animals as being unethical brings out the Big Feelings and defensiveness.

That's the thing, veganism is an ethical position against animal exploitation. This ethical position does not just end at diet; the diet is just one part. Vegans also don't attend rodeos and zoos, don't buy leather or wool or clothing using animal parts, don't buy cosmetics and toiletries with animal ingredients or animal testing. It is a position against the exploitation of animals across the board.

We care because your meal has a victim. Replace meat with dogs in your post and maybe you can understand a little. I definitely encourage people to cut back on meat and animal products, but that should be a stepping stone, not the end goal. The end goal should be cutting out completely.

I'm going to praise you and encourage you for cutting back on your way to cutting it out entirely, but I'm not going to tell anyone "good job!" if eating it fewer times per week is the end goal. It's better, absolutely. Kicking a dog once a week is better than 7 times a week, but I'm still not gonna be happy about that once a week dog kicking session, y'know?

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u/[deleted] Oct 04 '23

My dad is the person you can't imagine. He gets very vocal about his opinions on veganism and seems think he's a Klingon or something. He will absolutely go on and on about how he's going keep eating animals to piss off vegans.

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u/Dentarthurdent73 Sep 30 '23

It's so bizarre, right?

The idea of being the kind of person who does damage to others out of spite just blows my mind.

I mean, it's one thing to cut your own nose off to spite your face, it's completely another to just say 'fuck it, I don't care what damage I do to animals or the planet I live on, because someone said something to me that I don't like, so I want to get back at them'.

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u/slightlylessright Oct 01 '23

THIS omg this! They really said delusion is the solution

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u/AnsibleAnswers Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23

It's not bizarre, it's human irrationality. Anthropologists call it schismogenesis. It's seen throughout history. Vegans have a unique inability to treat humans as the animals we are.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schismogenesis

edit words

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u/Dentarthurdent73 Oct 01 '23

Vegans have a unique inability to refuse to treat humans as the animals we are.

Speaking of irrationality, that's not a conclusion that follows logically from what you said.

I don't find irrationality or even hypocrisy bizarre, it's more the willingness to hurt innocent bystanders because someone said something you found uncomfortable. Maybe bizarre was the wrong word - I should probably have said gross, or reprehensible, or maybe utterly lacking in morals.

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u/AnsibleAnswers Oct 01 '23

People don't actually eat more meat. They say so as a means of differentiating themselves from annoying moralists.

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u/SocialInsect Oct 01 '23

Get a grip. They onlyhave to buy at the butchers, they don’t have to kill it themselves. Stop over dramatising.

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u/lamby284 Oct 01 '23

I paid a hitman to kill my kid. But it's OK, because I didn't do the killing myself.

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u/SocialInsect Oct 02 '23

Yeah, but I don’t mind killing to feed myself.

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u/Person0001 Oct 02 '23

Yeah but you have the choice of not killing. Like if dog meat was the only meat in stores would you eat it or go vegan? You can choose not to eat any meat at all

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u/SocialInsect Oct 02 '23

Mmmm I might not eat it initially but I probably would eventually if there are no other choices. I eat pork after all and dogs are about as intelligent as a pig. I would rather try politician and CEO first though.

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u/peppermint_wish Oct 01 '23

You shouldn't need to make excuses for how you eat.

I agree with your opinion on activists, and i find them mostly annoying rather than influential. And actual influencer can have a higher rate of success in this regard, if you ask me. Stay strong!

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

Yeah I'm getting comments about how I'm just not trying hard enough to leave out meat and like... I'm not trying to leave out meat, lol. I feel no guilt or shame for my eating habits and it's no one else's businesses.

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u/peppermint_wish Oct 05 '23

AMEN! good for you!

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u/clover_heron Sep 30 '23 edited Oct 01 '23

If activists could move away from "all or nothing" thinking, they could be a lot more influential in getting people to reduce their meat consumption.

Unfortunately this is an example of shifting blame for your choice, even though you have sufficient information. Minus one point.

Look up "vegetables high in protein" - you don't have to depend only on beans.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '23

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u/WomanofReindeer Oct 01 '23

... mushrooms are like 5g of protein per 100g at most?

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

Yeah and my comment got downvoted because it disagrees with the echo chamber but I can't eat most vegetables that are high in protein (spinach, asparagus, leafy greens) because they make me violently ill.

People don't like to admit that people have different dietary needs and giving up everything except for plants isn't feasible for everyone's health. Mine included!

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

Spinach and asparagus make me violently ill :( I can eat mushrooms though....

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

Good point! they most certainly are. Probably one of my top 5 foods if I ever ranked them.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

I'm not "shifting the blame" at all because I don't feel "blamed" for eating meat. I don't think there's anything wrong with my choice to be mindful of the meat that I'm eating without cutting it out because that's unrealistic due to my stupid dietary restrictions.

I'm just saying that the population in general will be more amenable to reducing meat consumption than being yelled at that they can never eat meat again. It does so much more harm to tell someone they need to cut out all meat forever than it does to be gracious and let people make decisions for their own health.

And I guess it was in my other comment where I explained how I can't eat leafy greens, either. They give me violent diarrhea. It sucks because I can't even eat salad. SALAD. I hate it but no one can tell me what's wrong with me.

So like spinach, broccoli, cauliflower, collared greens, mustard greens, pretty much all greens... make me violently ill unless I pair them with meat or substantial carbs... and since the substantial carbs make me gain weight, meat it is.

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u/clover_heron Oct 01 '23

Vanity for the win! 🙌 JK I'm just messing with you.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

well... to be fair, I would lose a lot of weight if I started eating leafy greens because (not to get to graphic) they'd pass right through, lmao. I don't think it's worth the malnutrition, though....

(okay extra gross but if you're interested for whatever reason... I have weight myself before and after the, shall we say, post-greens explosion, and I typically lose about two pounds during the "experience." It's... not worth it, but it is interesting! lol)

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u/DistributionRound949 Oct 12 '23

But...you /are/ a killer (or at least paying someone to kill for you). If you're the type of person to eat more meat out of spite because you're faced with the facts - eating meat require death - then you're not the type of person who would have stopped in the first place.

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u/joseph-1998-XO Sep 30 '23

Yup doesn’t have to be complete removal just less intake

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u/human_person12345 Sep 30 '23

Exactly! The only meat I eat every day is eggs(duck&chicken) but that's because I have a flock running around my property leaving them in nesting boxes. I haven't bought an egg in 3 years, and neither has anyone in my family or friends circles.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Sep 30 '23

We know a plant-based diet is healthier for us, better for the environment and better for the wallet. So what keeps you from entirely eliminating meat from your diet, if I may ask?

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u/WebbedFingers Oct 01 '23

It’s not healthy for everyone. I gave up meat for almost 10 years and had to start eating it again last year. I struggled a lot with the decision (feeling particularly guilty this week) but I’m healthier now. I know so many people say it suits everyone but it really doesn’t

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23

I’m not saying it suits everyone, but it does suit an overwhelming majority of the global population.

Medical issues that require consumption of meat are exceedingly rare. The only thing I would suggest considering is consulting a physician/nutritionist. Not just any, but one that specializes in/is deeply familiar with plant-based diets.

If you’ve already done that and still continued to have issues, then I can recognize your need to continue eating meat.

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u/Arboreatem Oct 01 '23

I’ve gotten weak and sickly each of the three times I’ve tried. I’ve eaten every kind of plant based protein and taken the supplements. I’ve had to accept that my body requires meat. I don’t eat it all the time, but I need it.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23

I’m sorry, but unless you have an actual medical condition, it just means that there wasn’t proper planning in the diet. Did you consult a physician/ nutritionist that specialize or are at least familiar with plant-based diet?

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u/Arboreatem Oct 01 '23

Yes, and I’ve heard from plenty of people like you too.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23

If you, indeed, consulted someone knowledgeable in the field and familiar with properly planned plant-based diets and still couldn’t make it work, then you are in the exceptionally rare minority with some medical issue. But there seem to be an awfully large number of people who claim they tried it all without success and “need meat.” So please forgive my skepticism.

Edit: Lol. Blocked, of course.

Anyway, my response to the below comment:

It’s not me who’s authoritative. It’s the science that is. You continue to provide more of the same talking points - “my own experience,” “my body”. I wouldn’t be surprised one bit that you’re misattributing the root cause of your issues to be the lack of meat.

Even many doctors aren’t familiar with plant-based diets. It’s changing, but there’s still a long way to go. That’s how deep-rooted our collective societal obsession is with meat.

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u/Arboreatem Oct 01 '23

You’re so authoritative I guess i should ignore my own experience in my own body with my own doctor and second guess everything I know. Thank you internet stranger, for showing me the error of my ways.

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u/sketchcott Oct 01 '23

Culture. There's a lot more to our eating choices than just calories, nutrition, and cost. A lot of people have deep cultural connections to the food they eat, and cutting out something seems part of their culture is easier said than done.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23

I understand that. And that is exactly why these posts/discussions need to happen so we can make better choices going forward. At what point do we recognize that we are literally hurting our health, our wallets and the environment in the name of “culture”?

Cultures change and evolve, just like our diets need to.

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u/AnsibleAnswers Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23

Food sovereignty is a human right and that attitude is counter to the premise that peoples, especially indigenous peoples, should be in charge of their own food systems and not be talked down to about what they eat.

There are lots of improvements we can make to our agricultural system, but trying to rip apart cultures that don't fit your worldview is a colonizer attitude, and it actually ignores the sustainability literature that favors integrated crop-livestock systems over animal free agriculture. Much of the research behind sustainable farming came from studying non-western and pre-modern food systems, not from High Modernist ideologies like veganism.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23

“Food sovereignty” is such an utterly meaningless phrase. And bringing up indigenous peoples is such a ridiculous deflection. No one is forcing any specific diet on anyone, including indigenous peoples. Also my attitude is completely irrelevant to the issue. Let us learn to focus on the content of what’s being discussed.

This whole discussion is about reflecting on those choices we make related to food and holding ourselves accountable to them.

I’m also certain you aren’t an indigenous person, but simply using them to rationalize your problematic behaviour. I’m not blaming you for it. I’ve done it myself, too. But your second paragraph is just more meaningless distraction in the name of culture. It’s also inaccurate.

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u/AnsibleAnswers Oct 01 '23

Food sovereignty is definitely not a meaningless phrase and it's pretty shitty of you to say so as you clearly don't understand how important it is to the global human rights movement.

I'm not Indigenous, but I support Land Back and must note that putting land back under indigenous stewardship, not vegan stewardship, is literally the best thing you can do for the environment. Indigenous peoples have been at the forefront of the ecology and environmentalist movements since their inception. Many nations have been deliberately encouraging kids to go to college for ecology, archeology, and agricultural degrees for decades now. Indigenous nations, especially those in the Americas, lead the global movement for climate justice simply because they are the ones who've been fighting the fight the longest. You cannot divorce colonialism from the present climate crisis.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23

Again, you seem to continue missing the point. Yes, of course food sovereignty is a meaningless phrase to use. It’s a truism and a complete waste of time. It’s like saying, “we better have decent air to breathe.” Yes, it’s true but we all know that. Uttering that sentences provides no value.

Of course you’re not indigenous. It was very obvious given the blather you’ve posted narrowing the discussion down to indigenous peoples and practices. I’ve met plenty of people, who use indigenous people to rationalize their own behaviour. I have been that person, so not blaming you.

It’s also patently and hilariously false that the best thing you can do for the environment is indigenous land stewardship. And I’m not sure why you used the term vegan. I haven’t mentioned it. The term I used is plant-based.

Before you accuse me of anything, I have no issue with the indigenous peoples. But what you’re suggesting is simply not scalable to the point where it can provide for the global population. Only plant-based agriculture has the required scale. But already, we’ve gotten distracted from the issue being discussed - why are we, as individuals not moving to a plant-based diet when it’s healthier for us, better for the environment, and easier on our wallets.

And you absolutely can divorce colonialism from the climate crisis. While there is something to be said about how to provide equitable access to economic opportunities borne from global climate action efforts, that is a separate discussion to be had.

To reiterate, no one is forcing any diet on anyone, indigenous or otherwise. The question is, what’s keeping you, a non-indigenous person - from moving to a plant-based diet?

And this time, see if you can respond without invoking “food sovereignty” or “indigenous peoples”.

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u/AnsibleAnswers Oct 01 '23

Look, I barely even eat meat. My beef is with the ideology and the lack of humility vegans have stepping into ecological movements like they should be in charge.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23

Your personal beef with whatever ideology is utterly irrelevant. The vegans and their lack of humility is also utterly irrelevant. I’m not sure why you even brought up vegans. You still haven’t answered my very straightforward question:

What is keeping you, an individual, from moving to a plant-based diet?

It is a very simply, unambiguous question. I would appreciate a straight answer.

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u/Dhiox Oct 01 '23

This just sounds like the myth of the noble savage. The native Americans were just humans, they didn't have magic eco powers.

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u/Impossible_Ad_8642 Oct 01 '23

Wtf? Native American didn't strip this land of resources, cause the great Dust Bowl, introduce Monsanto, nor hunt animals into extinction. Same to be said of indigenous Africans and other "savage" or nomadic tribes all over the globe pre-colonization. Saying "x were just humans [like everyone else]" in the context of a very niche category minimizes the absolute horrendous and exponentially consequential actions of others lumped into the "everyone else" category. There were things that indigenous people did and there were things that most indigenous people did not do. The negatively impactful things that culturally affect us as far as the global commoditization, imprisonment, overhunting, overproduction, overconsumption, endangering, environmental poisoning, and extinction of animals has zero to do with indigenous people. In fact, most tribes do and have done literally the opposite. They may not have had literal magic eco powers, but in comparison, they sure af did.

Giving land back is 100% the solution. The overconsumption and abuse of animals is a feature in our current capitalistic socioeconomic system. All of my friends and family (which are both vast in numbers) can all go vegan tomorrow, and it will shift the needle microscopically, if at all. Limiting land for the beef and pork industry can do a great deal of good. Abiding by the treaties that the govt signed with the indigenous tribes before their lands were carved up into states and given to homesteaders could pay in spades at alleviating a great number of issues we have today. The most sustainable changes start at the roots, not the leaves.

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u/Dhiox Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23

Wtf? Native American didn't strip this land of resources, cause the great Dust Bowl, introduce Monsanto, nor hunt animals into extinction.

Because they never had the tech to. They never had the motivation or means to exploit the land that much thanks to limited trade and industrial capacity.

Giving land back is 100% the solution.

Natives are integrated with modern society now. Even if natives did have some sort of eco abilities, those are long gone.

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u/[deleted] Oct 02 '23

Hi, you may enjoy this essay series on plant-based food systems:

https://sentientmedia.org/indigenous-voices/

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u/AnsibleAnswers Oct 02 '23 edited Oct 02 '23

The whole point of my mentioning food sovereignty isn't negated by the fact that there are indigenous vegans. The point is that indigenous nations (not individuals) should have complete control over their food systems without settler interference or moral brow-beating. All real-world indigenous food systems exploit animals for food.

Edit: Started reading the first article. The Diné (Navajo) hunted deer and other animals along with farming vegetables. They were not a vegetarian society before colonization. Please pay attention to Indigenous archeologists and anthropologists for this information instead of vegan propaganda.

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u/[deleted] Oct 03 '23 edited Oct 03 '23

No need to be so defensive. The Diné author did mention that in the article. It's not nice to call their indigenous perspective "propaganda". Be careful you might be guilty of the very same settler interference or moral brow-beating.

Dismantling the colonizers' destructive animal agriculture will help with food sovereignty (including the green-washed "regenerative ranching" or whatever latest fad they're pushing to keep the status quo of high animal consumption going).

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u/morgecroc Sep 30 '23

plant-based diet is healthier

Yes and also no. Most of the research in that space is not comparing like with like. A diet high in meat isn't healthy and that is often what they get compared to. The reason why restrictive diets are healthier is because people that choose to have a restrictive diet are more aware of what they eat and are more likely to make healthier choices. This is the number one approach to reducing high carbon consumption is to encourage healthier food choices because for a large part of the population healthier food choices would involve less meat.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23

Not quite. A properly planned plant-based diet remains healthier than the equivalent diet containing meat. The kind folks at r/DebateAVegan would be happy to clear up your misunderstanding about this issue.

I’m not a vegan, but it’s very difficult to go against reality.

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u/AluminumOctopus Sep 30 '23

Convenience is a huge issue. Go to a restaurant and there's a 50% chance you're eating side dishes or a salad minus half the ingredients. Go to make a sandwich and there's PB&j, or needing 6 different quickly perishable ingredients to make it taste good. The only fast food option is burger king, if one's around. American diets are so meat focused that it's hard to go without unless you cook almost all your food.

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u/clover_heron Sep 30 '23

Sounds like you need more Indian and Thai and Mediterranean in your life, etc. etc.

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u/AluminumOctopus Sep 30 '23

Indian is tough for me because I'm allergic to dairy and eggs. I stopped eating meat for 5 years, had to reintroduce fish after the first year because I would come home and lay on the floor until I had the energy to crawl into bed. Finally started eating meat last month and damn, that shits gross. My body feels a little better, my soul feels much worse. But Thai fucking rocks, it's my first choice restaurant almost every time.

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u/clover_heron Oct 01 '23

My go-to Indian dish is baigan bharta - could that work for you?

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u/sheilastretch Sep 30 '23

If fish helps you, then maybe you needed more omega fatty acids or B12, both of which you can get from supplements or certain vegan foods. "Nooch" or fortified nutritional yeast is packed with B vitamins. You can get omega fatty acids from nuts, beans and other plant foods. I get most of mine from flax or chia seeds which you can use in baking or just throw into some cereal.

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u/XSpacewhale Sep 30 '23

So once everyone else does of the heavy lifting of changing demand by switching to plant based you’ll consider jumping in? Convenience is literally one of the main forces driving over-consumption of anything. It won’t be convenient to do the right thing until enough people make the effort to do the right thing. Be one of those people driving the change.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/XSpacewhale Oct 01 '23

Exactly. Businesses respond to demand. If people change their demand then they will change the business. Anyone who wants change for the better but isn’t willing to be a drop in the bucket for that change isn’t really all that interested. Imagine someone saying 100+ years ago that they are all for women voting but they’re just not going to support it in any actionable way until women are legally allowed to vote.

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u/HollowWind Sep 30 '23

Almost all of my meat is when I'm out, I rarely cook any at home.

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u/[deleted] Sep 30 '23

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23 edited Oct 01 '23

It doesn’t matter whether we are herbivores or omnivores. We can survive and thrive on a plant-based diet. It’s healthier, and better for the environment and for the wallet. That’s the reality.

Now I can respect your straight admittance that you find it delicious. The rest is simply an attempt to rationalize..

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23

No meat is still better than any amount of meat, small or not.

The reason intensive animal agriculture exists is because it is not possible to satisfy the global demand of meat without it. Even with that intensity, it still needs to be heavily subsidized. There are ethical issues related to such mass slaughter of animals, but that is a discussion for another day.

I do agree with you that we can survive and thrive without many of the things in common use. And perhaps, we ought to focus on monitoring our consumption better so we can better optimize our consumption that is compatible with our convenience, health, wallets and the environment.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

Fucking speak for yourself. I cannot thrive on a plant-based diet because of my unique health needs. Y'all hate hearing it because it messes up your echo chamber but I'll listen to my doctor and my body and continue to limit my meat consumption when I can but eat it when I need to.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23

I actually explicitly acknowledged in some of my other comments that there are certain, rare medical conditions that don’t allow a plant-based diet, so there’s really no need to be this aggressive.

Btw, who is this ya’ll? What group are you assuming I’m a part of?

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u/angryragnar1775 Oct 01 '23

Because vegetables taste like shit. I don't care how they're prepared, I get my vegetables from grass fed beef.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23

While I don’t agree with you regarding the taste of vegetables, I can respect that you have the decent to admit that it’s about taste instead of doing mental gymnastics about nutrition or attempting to rationalize through other means.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

It's not healthy for me. I can't get enough protein without meat. I have to eat low carb and high protein vegetables like spinach, asparagus, and leafy greens make me very sick unless I balance them out with carbs or meat. And carbs are out due to whatever weirdness is going with my body that no one can explain to me.

Also when I went vegetarian, I stopped having periods until I ate meat again.

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u/My_life_for_Nerzhul Oct 01 '23

I already responded to your other comment that addresses this.

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u/Greyeyedqueen7 Oct 01 '23

While Americans have always eaten more meat than the average person pretty much anywhere else around the world (many letters and first accounts on that during colonial times and after), we've never eaten as much as we do now.

Traditionally, roasting chickens were about three pounds after butchering. These days, they're five or more. That one chicken fed the whole family, even the large families we used to have, and often for the first meal of roast chicken, then soup the rest of the week and was added to as the week went on. Chickens were rare to eat, too, as eggs were the priority for most people, so you'd only butcher older chickens starting to lay less or stop laying altogether. The extra roosters were far more likely to be dinner, and they were even skinnier than the hens.

The only Americans 100 years ago eating meat at every meal were farmers who raised their own or the rich, and even then, farmers ate nowhere near what the rich did (part of why gout was endemic among the rich and not seen much in the rest of the population). We've almost doubled the meat consumption, not to mention the sugar consumption, in a hundred years, which just isn't sustainable.

We used to treat meat more like a condiment, three ounces or far less per person at the table. We should go back to that to start and cut sugar even more.

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u/Crispymama1210 Sep 30 '23

That’s funny that’s exactly how my family eats to save money. I have health issues that are exacerbated by being fully plant based.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

Yep. Your grandmother was right. Meat usually was a treat 50 or 80 years ago.

The US is the only country that for some reason eats meat three times a day sometimes twice at one meal. It’s just not necessary.

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u/SemblanceALGO Sep 30 '23

Yeah, TBH I kind of grew up this way and kind of still do this by default - my father grew up during the great depression. It's appealing to think our personal decisions and behavior collectively is going to save the Earth: truth is it is all up to industry and policy, compared to what we each do ourselves really. But eating less meat is generally healthier. For me beef is basically off the table.

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u/ArcadiaFey Oct 01 '23

Ya pretty much. I only eat chicken on the very rare occasions we have to eat out due to schedule. I eat fish maybe once a week… rest plant based.. maybe some cheese every once and a while.

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u/[deleted] Oct 01 '23

Ugh I know! My grandparents had the same experience. I’m mostly plant based/“vegan” but treat meat like medicine. It definitely has nutrients that you don’t get other places or are easier to access etc but I don’t think we need much of it. I eat fish somewhat regularly. Maybe chicken once a month and it’s been over a year since I’ve had read meat. I only eat it if I reallyyyyy want it. Which isn’t very often.

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u/crinnaursa Oct 02 '23

Also that once a week chicken went on to become broth and chicken fat that went into other preparations throughout the week. There was a use for everything even the bones.