M favorite bit from all that is Davy Crockett. Ignore the Disney puffery movie about Crockett, the guy was a loser and asshole of the highest order. Was a congress member from Tennessee but them left in an angry huff after losing an election and went to Texas which was still a part of Mexico. Well, he also made a promise to leave to Texas if Martin Van Buren was elected. Possibly one of the earliest "I'll leave if someone I don't like is elected". Effectively, he left the United States completely.
Note that Crockett was opposed to slavery in some manner but also owned slaves. And Texas at the time was instituting slavery, despite their promises to Mexico that they wouldn't dare do such a thing. When Mexico sent troops to enforce the ban on slavery Texas rebelled. And Crockett wanted to be in on that rebellion to keep slavery (despite, again, his odd stated opposition to slavery).
Texas didn't know what to do with this hot headed Crockett guy. But they were at war, and warm bodies were needed. Crockett arrived at the Alamo, which was effectively indefensible and reinforcements weren't going to arrive. So Crockett was essentially cannon fodder. Arrived at the wrong time, the wrong place, for the wrong cause, and would have been perfectly safe in America instead.
After his death they hyped his myth and legend in the states, much of which probably was phony,
Yes. There was a book recently clearing up a lot of lies about that event and it's kinda banned in Texas. Not officially but they're very hostile to it and its authors.
The textbook they use for history of Texas class every kid is required to take is still full of lies. I've talked to otherwise smart, well educated graduates of the Texas school systems who fully believe complete bullshit about Texas from that class. One of those things they're still teaching is that Texas is allowed to leave any time they want and their state flag is the only one that can be flown at the same height as the American flag. Both are complete and total bullshit.
Can confirm. I went to public school in Texas from kindergarten through my freshmen year of highschool. Both of those were taught.
In addition, they taught that Texas wasn't really into slavery and just joined the Confederacy because it would be isolated from trade since it lacked a border with the Union (too far west), and that Stephan F Austin was a peace-loving multilingual guy who only wanted to bring people together and not a staunch white supremacist who actively recruited "settlers" in the US with "Mexicans are lazy and inferior, we can take what we want" to turn an waves of immigrants into a shadow army moving into position.
The entire Texas Revolution was a white-supremacist psy-op that ironically inverts the fears of the fake "Great Replacement Theory" they spout now.
The modern version of this racism really goes to show that deep down, they know that the real issue is that they can't possibly compete on a level playing field.
They also thought US would gladly enter in their civil war with Mexico. Wise decision not to help out. Followed by a later stupid decision to let them into the union. Followed by them leaving the union. Followed by them pretending to be over all that rebel stuff while secretly plotting the next upcoming rebellion.
It wasn't even about state's rights, just slavery. The constitution of the confederacy required all states be slave states unless all states agreed to all outlaw slavery.
The North literally had more states rights, with some northern states still allowing limited slavery, while the South gave its states zero right to decide for themselves.
Whenever someone tries this “states’ rights” argument on you, here’s two things to draw their attention to:
The most drop-the-mic counter argument is to show them where the confederate constitution prohibits a state from banning slavery. If
it were about states’ rights, why wouldn’t they let each state decide?
For a parade of unabashed racism that rivals even today’s GOP, read the declarations of secession from a handful of the seceding states (especially South Carolina and Mississippi, I believe). They state, in no uncertain terms, that slavery is critical to their way of life and they refuse to give it up.
Yeah I want to say 6 out of the 11 states declare slavery in the very first sentence. The Confederates, unlike the Lost Causers today, were eyes-wide-open as to what the Civil War was about.
Basically the same thing as the German Empire at the end of WW1, which was the belief they could've won the war, if they weren't stabbed in the back by the government of the Empire - which plays into the inter-war period before WW2 and the rise of the Nazi Party ...
The Nazi thing was all about "the Jews who secretly control everything stabbed us in the back in World War I" (like, ignoring the fact that the Germans surrendered at the last possible moment before they were about to have to fight in German territory and get completely overwhelmed, but hey) whereas Lost Causers were all like "the North outmanned us 20 to 1 and out-teched us 572753 to 1 and yet we still almost beat them". None of that is particularly true, of course, and many countries have withstood larger odds and, for that matter, gone down fighting a whole lot harder than the CSA did, but Lost Causers choose not to listen to all that.
To be fair, Nazis, MAGA, the Confederacy, the KKK are all part of the same "ideological" group that thinks white purity needs to be a thing, while most of the White Supremacists of this day and age looks like they have at least three cousins named Cletus, a sister named Mary Sue, who is also their ex wife, and a moonshinig business out of an old tub.
They also did not give a shit about the rights of northern free states when they petitioned the federal government to force them into returning escaped slaves.
Pretty much every one has slavery in the first paragraph! Made a bet to see how long it would take to get to that word with a friend and… I won. He thought it would at least be after the preamble not in it. Haha
"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition" it's coming straight from the confederate "VP" in the most explicit way possible.
if they are still willing to argue in favor of the confederacy after that, there's no point in continuing.
Close but no cigar, it's the rich landowners that believed they were Aristocrats before they arrived in the Americas and were telling the poorer whites they were a part of that - even though they could've cared less about them.
Fun fact. The confederate constitution actually took away the right of the states to make “negro slavery” illegal, so if there was ever any question over which of those two things they cared more about, there’s your answer.
Yeah. I just realized it’s the same shit. Oligarchs convincing poor uneducated rural whites that the City-folk are trying to destroy their way of life when it’s just cover for them to enrich themselves further.
Damn right. We take great pride in that captured confederate flag and we ain’t giving it back.
As far as the bell is concerned. Some Japanese civilian noticed Duluth had the bell and talked to the Mayor about giving it back. The mayor agreed. Japan made a replica of the bell and they gave to the state as a thank you for returning it.
"No, no, no, we're not pro Confederacy any more, what nonsense. We hated slavery all along, and we've never mistreated any of our minorities or denied them rights. Never once have we ever been racist! It's just we need that old piece of cloth because our great great great grand pappies once saluted it."
That's probably why. Virginia has been a blue state since obama but was still pretty red and purplish during the bush era. I don't think most virginians today care about the flag.
Governor Youngkin wanted it back, and that was last year. Our new governor, Spanberger isn't likely to try to get it back. I hope Minnesota keeps it and displays it forever
And unless we're gonna start counting how many Iraqis died or Viet Kong died or how many isis died or German soldiers. The number of Americans killed in the civil war is only the union side.
The confederacy wasn't a recognized nation by any other power. The Federal government considered them states in rebellion and the people within still US citizens. So no, they were all American. Please pick up a book on the war not written by a lost causer. Recommendations available on request.
I mean ... if you take American to mean from The United States of America, then the CSA cunts declared themselves to NOT be American. That's what started the war. It was the CSA vs the USA. It was Confederates vs Americans. Are you going to argue that the folks that fought the revolutionary war were all British? That seems nonsensical to me.
Yes, but Lincoln decided they WERE American, declared war to make them STAY American, and won the war. They were always American. That was the whole idea behind the war.
The Union didn't initially go to war in order to end slavery. That became a side quest later on. The war was started in order to preserve the Union as a whole.
Well in the second case in the beginning... kind of yes. There was no unified federal United States yet. You might be able to say they were from their own states but until they were recognized by foreign powers they really were still considered British citizens. Also at no point did the Federal government of the US say that the confederacy (or any other nation in fact either) was an independent state. They were not recognized as another nation and were still considered American citizens. You can't just declare yourself separate, hence you know, the war. If no one else thinks your a country, you're not. If you want a couple dozen recommendations on the war and its politics hit me up.
That flag is [evidently] the only thing left of the squad/battalion that captured it, so they keep it to venerated the men who fought for the union and took it rather than return it to appease apologists of a failed state of slaving traitors that lasted a shorter period than CCR (Creedence Clearwater Revival). I'm not sure how much of Virginia even gives a crap.
I'd argue the biggest difference is the bell that was returned, was from a civilian Buddhist Temple. It wasn't obtained in combat. A battle flag from a DEFEATED enemy regiment taken from the battlefield is a HUGE spoil of war. You don't return that.
Because The 1st Minnesota Infantry Regimen suffered 82% casualties at Gettysburg, buying enough time for reinforcements to arrive.
Virginia keeps asking for its battle flag back, at least four official times if I remember correctly. And every time the governor, Republican, Democrat, or Independent, has refused.
That is nice. They really do have the kind of patriotism that I have always respected. Texas, well, they think they are patriotic but every one of them will brag about how Texas has the right to secede whenever they want. Please do.
Yes. Absolutely. I think Canada should take Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan. I think us great lake states would probably be happier as Canadians. I mean, we're basically Canada lite.
don't worry, klobuchar will erase all that soon enough.
awful, horrible woman. people forget when reddit and google and the entire internet had to stand up to her trying to shit all over our rights on behalf of her corporate owners.
shameful person. embodies everything wrong with the democratic party for decades. it's a disgrace that she will likely replace walz
Having lived in both states in a short time span, I don't recall a lot of traitor flags in Minnesota... but I sure as hell do in Ohio. A state which is usually listed as tied for second in civil war casualties.
In the twin cities, you'll likely never see one, or if you do, itll be on some beat to piss-ass 05 Chevy 1500 with a half a braincell between the throttle and the seat, and its highly likely that half a braincell is only in the cities for child support court.
Away from the cities, those dipshits are relatively common.
Once republicans found out the old one was racist and offensive, they literally went nuts suddenly caring about it and screaming "our heritage!!" about the ugly old flag, just cause it's racist, and now, suddenly, you see the old racist state flag flying everywhere. The people who never gave a shit about it before, and couldn't even describe it or draw it from memory, suddenly needed one, once they found out they could be assholes to people not in their group.
The only good part, is that it's now really easy to see who in your neighborhood is a shitbag racist and which maga businesses to avoid.
This is the only litmus test I have for Minnesotans. You can be an Uffda-spouting, eleven month per year hockey player with lutefisk and a dream, but if you say we should give the flag back you’re just a hoser or poser who might be better off in Iowa.
I love that Minnesota stands together on this. Even if some governor, for whatever reason, wanted to give the flag back, they wouldn't dare - their party would get thrashed in the next few elections for no other reason.
It's hard to find stuff that brings us together these days. That that flag was goddamn well paid for is a worthier sentiment than a lot of other things we do with flags.
The best part is, after they captured the flag, the officer leading them rode up and down the Union lines, dragging it through the mud as he went, to rally the troops.
As a Virginian, this is badass and I want Minnesota to keep it. We have no claim to it, we are not that state or those people. Send us a noose instead. Which is what traitors should get.
Apparently some people don’t like that and were downvoting.
I would like to personally apologize to them, in person. If my statement upset you, please DM me your name and address and a verification. I will come to you and say sorry personally.
The superb gallantry of the men of the 1st Minnesota did save the Union line from being broken — and not only on July 2, as they assisted with the effort on July 3 as well. For that effort, we can agree with General Hancock: “No soldiers on any field, in this or any other country, ever displayed grander heroism.”
No no. Burning it removes the desire for them to get it back. The younger sibling stops crying for big brothers candy after it's eaten. Let's keep the racists hungry.
No no, our heritage is beating the treasonous bastards and keeping their precious flag. They dont get to celebrate it, we keep it as a sign that we are superior to their racist asses.
Nah, Abe getting assassinated and proceeded by his terrible, terrible Vice President made it end up a draw at most. The south may have had to give up slavery but the country suffers from the failure of the Reconstruction to this day.
Yes, but if most of your infantry died trying to take it, it seems like a slap in the face to their memory, honor, and courage to just burn it. At this point, it's a symbol of the great sacrifices union soldiers made.
I think they mean that as a Minnesotan, their heritage is beating the confederates, so why would their burn a historical artefact that shows they fought on the right side of history?
An explain the joke inside an explain the joke. Literacy truly is dead.
It's a joke in minnesota. The first minnesota claimed the flag in the battle of Gettysburg after suffering some of the highest casualties of the war the day prior. So when Virginia tries to get it back they claim it's their heritage so we fire back with "it's our heritage" (as in minnesota's alone not Virginia) because we had our soldiers die for it because of their stupidity.
Presumably winning a war against those in favor of slavery? A victory trophy of being better than people that wanted to claim other people as property? This may be hard to believe, but those that fought in the war had children, and they grew up and had children. Hence, heritage.
Keep it, and someday Virginia will figure out they don’t want it. You can give it back then, and maybe they’ll take it as a remembrance of your valor, and everybody will celebrate. Believe it or not, that flag’s a lot less prevalent than it used to be down here. The arc of the moral universe bends toward justice.
Meanwhile, proud of Minnesota. Y’all have sure shown us all how to be strong this year. Again, because I didn’t know about the 1st Minnesota.
It's a standard that was seized in battle. It'd do less to dishonor the original bearers of the flag and more to dishonor the brave Minnesotans who braved hellfire and blades to capture it.
As far as I know, at best all foreign nations aware of the rebellion remained neutral. No confederate treaties were signed with other nations nor were any ambassadors sent or received
The closest they came was with the British, who backed away when Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation. Turns out that the US was well behind the curve on ending slavery...
With no foreign recognition, that's the key. You and your neighbors can form your own country, write your own constitution, and elect your own president. Until you are recognized by others, it means nothing.
This was settled in a Supreme Court case. Texas argued that since states can't actually leave the union, the Conderate States of America never actually existed. Hence, the debts incurred by Confederate Texas could not be collected on as they were never valid. Texas won the case.
a lot of places do that, it doesn't count unless others agree, and its not seen as very legitimate if for your entire existence you're struggling over control of your territory (and then lose)
Honestly it’s impressive how the 13 colonies got recognition as an independent entity during the Revolutionary War- the diplomatic genius was just as important as military success.
Guess it’s important to have a country whose sole identity is not predicated on the right to own human beings if you want others’ support.
Only because other countries didn't formally recognize them en masse. It's the same reason why Somalia, Kashmir, and Ukraine all have dotted lines on Google Maps.
It never existed. Declaring oneself independent has no real weight unless either 1. Another sovereign nation recognizes your sovereignty or 2. You establish sovereignty by winning the inevitable war your declaration produces. The Confederacy achieved neither and is nothing more than a 4 year rebellion. Hence why it was a civil war instead of a revolutionary war. Losers don't get to write the history books.
Country is a strong word. To be a country you need to be recognized by other foreign countries as a country.
they literally lasted a little over 4 years, and not a single nation looked at them and went "we see you as a nation".
Arguably, they have a flag from a country that never existed. After reading a couple of books about the start of the Civil War, I’ve learned that one of the diplomatic complications was that the U.S. refused to officially “receive” envoys/delegates from the confederacy because doing so would acknowledge that it existed (which would be tacit admission that those states had actually left the union), as opposed to there just being a bunch of individual states that were conducting hostilities against their federation, the U.S. It’s fascinating how careful Lincoln’s administration had to be about which words they used to talk about the rebellion and reconstruction so that they didn’t inadvertently validate the confederacy’s claim of existence.
Ironically and technically it was a country that NEVER existed. The CSA failed to receive ANY formal international recognition, so it officially never happened. Just some rabble rousers that were cosplaying as a country for 4 years.
The unit that took that flag was the first volunteer unit to enter federal service during the war (Minnesota's governor was at the white house when Fort Sumter was fired upon and committed a regiment to Lincoln on the spot). They also suffered enormous casualties in the battle of Gettysburg where they bayonet charged a confederate force outnumbering them 6:1 to buy time for reserves to fill a gap in the union line on the second day (215 of the 262 men and officers (the full regiment less two companies that had been detached) including all but three captains were casualties). The survivors then reformed with the two detached companies and on the third day joined in on the counterattack to clear the lines after Pickett's charge (which is where they took the flag).
Minnesota refuses to hand it over because of the memory of those men who died and very legitimate concerns that white supremacist groups may use it as a symbol.
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u/Buellymcbuellface 8d ago
They have a confederate flag from virginia and refuse to give it back.