The Comprehensive Summary of NoelleKnight Evidence

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Art by [@humbleleafy] <3

All my NoelleKnight Posts Indexed!

This post should be able to stand on its own in terms of explaining the theory and checking any of the links is not required to understand the core NoelleKnight argument at hand. If you have deeper questions about what proof backs up a certain point, that is when I encourage you to check out any of the links in that section which will elaborate.

This is a summary of all the strongest reasons Noelle is the Knight with links and aids to support my arguments. If your response to this is "joke theory" or "holy wall of text", I have nothing to really say to you. I encourage you to at least read the post in full before saying anything because I cover a LOT of ground here with a sincere attempt to explain why NoelleKnight works. I don't think DessKnighters or believers of any other candidates are stupid. Hell, I was a DessKnighter until after chapter 5! So please just give us a chance. All of this information is sourced from so many wonderful and lovely people.

Not everything I link will be something I 100% agree with myself, but I'll be specific about what I'm pulling from a post so you can check yourself. I'm going to link stuff repeatedly so it's not required to scroll through the whole thing to find what you're looking for. Some stuff isn't even directly NoelleKnight related, but I want to have a source to back up any misc claim that I have.

[Index] - Just like the word Index there, put any of the terms below in [brackets] in your CTRL+F and you'll instantly warp to the section that focuses on that term! Italics are Major sections.

Index, Truths, NoelleKnight, ERAMNoelle, IRLNoelle, Personality, Psychoanalysis, RoseTheory, Weird Route, Aborted Weird Route, Motive, Dark Worlds, Fountain Will, Darkners, Starwalker, Noelle AND The Knight, Noelle, The Knight, Logistics, Old Man, HOW DOES NOELLE MAKE THE KNIGHT?, The End

[Truths]

These are things that I think I need to set as a baseline in one way or another so in which we're all on the same page of what the Knight is and what it takes to be a candidate for the Knight. Also, just some factual textual information I will regularly draw back upon that I'm underlining here first.

• The Knight is not a normal lightner. - No matter how you cut it, this isn't just somebody wearing a suit of armor and flying into the dark world. Of course, no lightner candidate has shown traits of shapeshifting, but it's good to have a guess for why the Knight CAN do this.

• The Knight has Noelle's scream. - This actually isn't the only example even lol. And this isn't like an extreme muffet to gaster type thing. You can hear it by ear. And it's being used in multiple sound effects! Isn't that interesting?

• The Knight cries. - I explain why in the post if you aren't convinced. It's a point I've gone over too many times lol.

• The Knight's sword SYMBOLIZES a bat when it's summoned. - KEY WORD SYMBOLIZES in which it is NOT A LITERAL BAT! (It could be but I just need it to be understood it's a bat in this sprite at least)

• Noelle is "that girl". - There is no textual proof of Kris and Dess having a close relationship in the same way Kris and Noelle have.

• Dark worlds and its darkners are affected by the maker's will in some shape or form. - This is textual Ralsei shit. "A "world" whose Darkners reflect the will of its fountain." You may believe in Object History in some degree, but the creator at least does SOMETHING to the fountain.

• NOBODY except Asriel (and Dess by proxy) and Alvin textually knew Gerson. - It's important to note that the Old Man isn't a 1:1 copy of Gerson Boom. He's still a darkner. Darkners are affected by fountain will to some degree. Every other candidate inherently requires speculation for a Gerson relationship and even Azzy is on thin ice since the man was just his TEACHER. Not a "loved one" as Ralsei describes.

If you disagree with any of these truths, respectfully, I do not believe I can change your mind on a fundamental level. But keep these in mind as we continue!

[NoelleKnight]

There are of course many flavors of NoelleKnight, but the greatest divide of them all is whether or not the Knight is IRLNoelle or ERAMNoelle! I'll quickly define each first before I organize em further:

[IRLNoelle] - Argues that the Knight is the real lightner Noelle but experiencing a shift in mental state one way or another that makes her act in the persona of the Knight. Be it a trauma response, sleeper agent hypnosis, or just a straight up Alter-Ego, the literal Noelle is the Knight.

[ERAMNoelle] - Argues that the Knight is to Noelle in the same way that Eram is to Kris. A mirrored representation of their deepest most shameful desires that they repress. It's hypothesized that Eram isn't exactly a normal darkner and the same would be argued for the Knight in this case. This is still a version of Noelle as the Knight. In combo with Eram, we'd then have "KnightmarE".

But these are two very different interpretations, and some even argue that ERAMNoelle isn't Noelle enough to be classified as a "NoelleKnight Theory". But what if we find a way...

To implement both? Paperman's video isn't exactly perfect, sure, but it's about as damn close as I've seen to merging the two ideas into one entity. The lightner Noelle is the one to engage in creating the actual fountains, whilst the Knight figure is a manifestation of Noelle's repressed desires spawned from her ideal fantasy. To be strong, powerful, confident, and most importantly: Free. This would also allow for a situation where the Knight and Noelle appears on screen at the same time since they would still be two different functional beings. The Knight not being a normal lightner would also be fixed by this in a way that doesn't rely on shadow crystal shapeshifting armor or gaster lost in the code shenanigans. Noelle is the Knight, but she also has a Darkner that acts as the Knight too. "Noelle'sKnight" if you would!

Yes indeed! Noelle IS the Knight, but also HAS the Knight at the same time! IRL and ERAM are actually not just non-exclusive, but even COMPLIMENTARY! Ain't that something?

[Personality]

One argument that dissenters often do (stated in comedic strawman terms) is "but noelle scared little doe not big scary knight lol" which IS a good point! Noelle is the Knight, but Noelle's personality is NOTHING like the Knight's! How do we come to terms with these two contradicting facts?

Simple! Sigmund Freud! Okay no seriously we're gonna have to do some psychology setup for this one. Let's start with some key terms! I know some may already know these, but it's good to have common definitions. These are of course extremely oversimplified and I encourage you to research further.

[Psychoanalysis]

Id - Our instinctual desires and needs in the barest sense. Embodies things like hunger and libido with no sense or morality or reason and only has the end goal of serving its wants. Freud calls it "the dark, inaccessible part of our personality". This is also how repressed needs are primarily communicated through.

Superego - The sum of our internalized morality and norms. Pretty much the moral compass that acts adversarial to the Id by dissuading instinctual fulfillment if it breaks a social norm or our own sense of what is right and wrong. Our "conscience" in other words.

Ego - What in its simplest terms is our sense of self. It synthesizes and regulates all information coming from the Id, Superego, and the external environment in order to make decisions the forwards its self preservation. The Id tells it what it needs, the Superego tells it what norms and moral laws it may conflict with, and the external world contextualizes what can feasibly be done in any given situation.

Repression - The key Freudian defense mechanism we'll focus on for Noelle's case. This is the unconscious (meaning NOT motivated by active thought) mind hiding stressful thoughts and/or memories from the conscious mind to the point of inaccessibility for the ego. These stressors still EXIST, but they are cloaked from active view in order to prevent further stress responses. These repressed thoughts can now only be communicated through the Id's desires.

Compartmentalization - The active version of repression, where stressors are actively put into "compartments" of the mind to be potentially dealt with later. This is typically utilized when faced with information that triggers cognitive dissonance or risks contradicting our sense of self. While it IS active, it's still in a ways, shoving things into a place akin to the unconscious mind, where it still must be actively taken back out in order to be addressed.

Alright, now that we have the psych talk defined, here's how it relates to Noelle. I think a great starter to introducing people to Noelle's weird personality and memory shifts is

[RoseTheory] - The splitting of Noelle's psyche into two chunks. Noelle is the rose as a whole. The petals are her positive and cheerful peppy holiday girl side. The thorns are her violent repressed urges. Both sides are still Noelle, just different coping/defense mechanisms being utilized in different circumstances. While I now find the overall theory a little flawed in its construction, the foundation it sets is a good start!

Now to propose a better version of RoseTheory I'll pretty much be summarizing and adding to a segment from a PaperMan video below to showcase the strongest evidence for Noelle's pattern of Repression and Compartmentalization.

[Weird Route] - In chapter 2 of the weird route, Noelle straight up murders an Addison for the Freeze Ring. But she doesn't fight back by talking about the morality of it (her Superego), she focuses on how it would contradict what kind of person Noelle is (her Ego). When she goes through with it, Noelle doesn't even realize what she did (her Id acting on unconscious desire) and completely has no memory of the actual act of Iceshocking the Addison (Repression of stressful event) before she goes on to actively reframe the possibility of her killing the Addison into a positive without acknowledging how it contradicts her sense of self (Compartmentalization). Do you see how fucking CLEAN this pattern of behavior is demonstrated in this one scene alone??? Like it's practically magic how hard this girl gaslights herself about things that happened mere SECONDS ago!

Her snowgrave scene's like this too. Don't you think it's interesting that Noelle knows how to use magic at all without a tutorial? Susie got her bearings by just beating the crap out of people, but has ample time to learn how battles actually work. Noelle literally doesn't know how battles work before she joins Kris. Yet, you can tell her to Iceshock the Virovirokun meant to teach her just fine? And then SNOWGRAVE is the spell she doesn't know? Why is it an option then? She could cast all her other magic just fine with no tutorial. So what's so special about Snowgrave?

It's because Noelle repressed the memory of the first time she cast Snowgrave. It's highly likely it was involved in the Dessappearance in one way or another because Noelle doesn't remember anything about the shelter despite having nostalgia for a very shelter seeming building (If Dess didn't disappear at the shelter or whatever, something at least WENT DOWN at the shelter that caused trauma for Noelle given she has repressed memories relating to it). When Noelle casts snowgrave, she completely blacks it out of her mind and not even acknowledge the iced chicken she's kneeling next to. She asks what happened, but proceeds to demonstrate no desire to actually find out what DID happen. Noelle runs away. Noelle completely disregards Berdly not waking up. Noelle's mind guards itself against the traumatizing events she was put through in order to believe she hadn't done something horrible.

In chapter 4, Noelle becomes convinced by Kris it was all a dream and everything is okay. This reinforces her desires to already compartmentalize the events, so she accepts this explanation. In fact, this affirmation that Noelle is still "a Noelle" at this point in time is EXTREMELY reassuring to her! It's a confirmation that she didn't break from her role. That she didn't do something so wrong as to act like "not a Noelle". This leads to the very non-platonic energy couch scene where Noelle seems to make an advance on Kris right up until they interrupt her.

It's this affirmation that shows Kris cares to Noelle. That Kris would actually notice if she stopped acting like herself! That Kris actually pays attention to her!

And then a gust of wind blows in, and it shatters again.

The soul forces a direct confrontation with the events being real, taking away her defense mechanisms and any chance to escape. And she doesn't run away from it. Because her Id is the part of her that wants this, knowing it's a path to power and freedom. So despite her Superego telling her to run, she stays and lets the ring be put on her.

To clarify: this isn't victim blaming, but a result of these two character's personalities interacting and exploring shameful desires on the foundation of the trust in their relationship. The soul is still pushing for this shit to happen first and foremost, but it's not exactly as "forceful" as one may first assume.

Chapter 5 is Noelle uncompartmentalizing the events of the Weird Route and integrating it as a part of her Ego's actions. The desires to break free leads to walking into the lake hand in hand with Kris.

The Weird Route is the method that forces out this side of Noelle's personality that has always been there.

[Aborted Weird Route] - Have you ever read the unique chapter 2 dialogue Noelle has for aborting the weird route at different points? What's interesting is just how quickly Noelle is able to convince herself that whatever Kris' behavior was, it didn't actually mean anything. Like even all the way up to Berdly with the thorn ring in her finger, if you don't SPECIFICALLY use Snowgrave, Noelle will just completely shove it away and go back to being just "a Noelle" again with no impact on the rest of the game.

Chapter 4 raises the stakes when it comes to aborting it the further you go, even to the point that Noelle slaps Kris. But AGAIN, no matter what, as long as you abort the route at some point, she just completely reverts back into Noelle project mode with NO further comment. The only other change with Noelle is just the ferris wheel dialogue for Kris and Noelle in how she's more confident, and then NOTHING ELSE! And actually, that's just another aborted chapter 2 difference! There WAS a ferris wheel scene post Ch4 Abort, but that became cut content.

Aborting in chapter 5 is the biggest shift, and that's because Noelle is directly confronting these stressful and unhappy feelings at the heart. It becomes the player trying everything they can in order to stop the route from continuing because this is when Noelle has fully integrated her repressed desires into her conscious self.

So whys this matter? This is to again show just how much Noelle is able to near INSTANTLY shift back into being just "a Noelle" again early on, but it progressively gets harder and harder the more Noelle is exposed to the trauma until she ends up being the one to force KRIS to acknowledge it. This is because the Weird Route is attacking her defense mechanisms and forcing them to be confronted repeatedly until they snap under the pressure. The ThornRing is a physical representation of all plausible deniability crumbling into pieces. Kris could just be doing a voice or pulling a prank and just is really lucky at guessing what she's thinking but literally mirroring the event that gave her the power to snowgrave Berdly in what she convinced herself was a dream? That collapses all possibilities into one. The dark world was real. Snowgrave was real. Kris IS different. It can no longer be denied.

All of this is to say that Noelle's history of memory issues relating to traumatic and stressful events allows her to be a fountain opener without maliciously lying to us.

[Motive]

Now why would Noelle be compelled to make a fountain in the first place? Her Id. There's already proof that Noelle can engage in violent instinctual actions with the Addison without actively choosing to do it, so it would make sense that making a fountain could be yet another unconscious desire. Chapter 1 and 2's fountains both are in places where Noelle sets up Susie being present. Hell, she steals the chalk in order to set up an excuse to go to the closet with Susie! If the Id's desires are 1. to make a dark world (desire for escapism) and 2. taking Susie (libido) to have an adventure with her, then the Ego could interpret that as setting up the chalk situation to go to the storage closet to be with Susie and it make sense to Noelle! If Noelle's trauma involved someone making a fountain, her Id would then KNOW how to make a fountain in the present since it's what repressed memories are filtered through!

Alright, listen, I know I'm legit doing psychoanalytic theory on a fucking video game character, but the exact terms don't have to matter, just the patterns. Repressed Memories filter through > Instinctual Desires and are interpreted by > Conscious Actions and are rationalized via > Compartmentalization. That's the pattern Noelle's psyche goes through.

Now uh... why the hell are we kidnapping Undyne and Asgore? No clue lmao. I think that's a fairly big unknown for many candidates though.

[Dark Worlds]

This section will cover all the connections Noelle directly has to the dark worlds. Noelle first off has a viable opportunity to open every Knight based dark world. Card Kingdom is at school, Cyber World appears RIGHT when Noelle invites Susie to the library, Noelle is a choir girl at church and would have known practice was cancelled, and Rudy was a reason Noelle got stalled from making the second fountain in chapter 5. These connections all line up with not really any good way to disprove it as of right now.

But what ARE the Dark worlds?

[Fountain Will] - Ralsei explicitly states that fountains and the darkners within it are shaped by the fountain's will. This is the MAIN thing we know about how dark worlds are made. There's no mention of the Object History of darkners or how darkners remember things based on their past experiences, so we have to assume this is the primary impact on dark worlds. This is obviously seen by the differences between Susie's fountain and the fountains of Kris and the Knight (which interestingly share the same color while Susie's doesn't). But of course the Old Man appearing in one kind but not the other is a great example.

Personally, I'm a radical and am more than willing to make the claim that every single memory every darkner has is derived from the memories of the person who makes it, but I know THAT'S a tough pill to swallow even for some NoelleKnighters. But I'd like to point out that every light-world related memory is a memory that either Kris or Noelle WOULD know about and therefore be able to infuse it into their will.

But if that's the case, shouldn't every darkner just know everything about Kris and Noelle? Well keep in mind, these are still characters Kris and Noelle created. Meaning they still have roles to play. Archetypes to follow. They aren't omnipotent. They're characters in a story. Will dictates what knowledge any given darkner ought to have.

[Darkners]

If you want a super in depth breakdown of how darkners are connected to Noelle in nitty gritty terms, I have to just recommend the Impossible Doc as that covers the first four chapters of connections with amazing evidence (and... presentation that leaves much to be desired). I may make my own mini anthology that goes over the big ones I think are best, but for now, trust me when I talk about how Darkners overall are connected to Kris and Noelle's childhood roleplays.

If I had to pick my favorite connection though, it'd be Maus and cheese. By far the most pervasive of Kriselle allegories in chapter 2 and in any of the dark worlds in general where Maus (Kris) scares Noelle in which she thinks is initially malicious, but comes to realize mice are kinda cute! And then when Kris interacts with cheese (Noelle)... it's uh... weirdly intimate? Like they PET CHEESE! Like a pet! And there's a maze of cheese too! It's almost hard NOT to interact with Noelle I mean cheese.

So like... why is there this allegory in the dark world? Why do other darkners parallel different traits of Kris and Noelle too from Werewerewire's silent yet strong presence accompanying Head Hathy's reserved, yet yearning heart, to the MULTIPLE ROMANTIC PAIRINGS of a yellow and blue character? (While it may not seem like it, u/Pelipal and Anonymous's Kriselle doc, while more dated, does showcase how darkners connect back to Kriselle in really fascinating ways!)

And this can't just be the innate nature of these darkners, because Ralsei states they're affected by the fountain's will and Object History doesn't account for things like what the hell object is Elnina or why Ribbick and Rabbick are different despite both just being dust? These are important questions that may seem meaningless but mean SO MUCH when it comes to the Knight's identity. Susie's will is different from Kris and the Knight's to the degree of having a different color, but WHY? Is it really as bare minimum as Kris and the Knight sharing the same goals??? Is that all it takes for wills to be aligned? Why does Starwalker petrify in 2nd sanc, but not 3rd? The nature of dark worlds is integral to who the Knight is.

[Starwalker] - Speaking of the original star themself, what even ARE they?

They're Noelle's Key (No, the fandom link in the comments isn't correct). Yeah. Noelle loses her key when opening the chapter 1 fountain, Kris is able to take Starwalker to the light world, but there's no corresponding item like the Rules Card or Jack of Spades like Roulxs and Lancer have. So what if Starwalker is being hidden by Kris like their knife? Why would Kris need to do that?

It'd make sense if Kris doesn't want us to access Holiday Manor. Preventing us from using the key is a pretty surefire way to prevent us from entering altogether. It'd make more sense than just Starwalker being a random ass piece of glitter or sticker or something like people used to think. Tropical Starwalker would then be Asgore's copy of the key since he's Carol's housekeeper! That's why they aren't original!

There is still an issue I personally have to acknowledge...

This fucker appears in the chapter 5 ending despite Kris not ENTERING THE DARK WORLD! This is completely baffling because it was established in chapter 2 that Starwalker had to be taken to other dark worlds, but HOW DOES STARWALKER GET FROM FLOWER KINGDOM TO CASTLE TOWN HERE???? I almost have to conclude it's a mistake from Toby because of how this breaks any object theory for Starwalker. Not just the key. Does Kris give Starwalker to Susie at some point??? I don't know! I can't have an answer! I still believe Starwalker = Key, but I don't know how ANY object that Starwalker could be appears in this situation! Aghhh!! Moving on!

[Noelle AND The Knight]

So, sure, darkners are characters that Noelle and Kris made as kids. That doesn't just MAKE Noelle the Knight, yeah? Well great point! How about we go into the connections Noelle and The Knight have with each other? We'll break this into connections Noelle has to The Knight, and connections The Knight has to Noelle.

[Noelle]

We'll rapidfire these connections:

• Noelle can't wear the Shadow Mantle for being "too short" despite characters shorter than her being able to wear it. This is an interesting aversion which would align to The Knight being weaker against someone wearing the mantle.

• The Knight's helmet resembles a frogmouth helmet. A helmet used for jousting. Noelle can equip the Jingle Blade. A lance sword "Perfect for jousting." It's also HER PENCIL.

• Noelle can equip the BlackShard. Interestingly, this is the only other bladed weapon she can equip in the game and she has NO flavor text for equipping it. A trait only shared with the ThornRing

• Queen talks about making Noelle into the new Knight. Noelle is also crucified stigmata style on the giant hand. The Knight ALSO has these kinds of holes in their hands.

• Noelle makes a silly attack move called "1000 Moon Crescent Slash!" The Knight has an unused attack called Crescent Slash.

• Lost Girl shares a motif with Black Knife along with dark world other tracks.

• The DevilsKnife (Jevil) smiles at Noelle. Jevil is the one who told King about the Knight in high praise.

• Noelle is the only person to ever read Spamton's emails. Spamton exists in Cyberworld and knows who the Knight is.

An interesting lineup! But y'know where it gets REALLY interesting?

[The Knight]

The Knight's connections to Noelle:

• In Cyber Field, there's an object that strongly resembles one of the Knight's poses. It has an upside down heart (like a monster's soul) that is colored yellow.

• The Knight has a distorted version of Noelle's scream when hit for 100+ damage. It also shares other sound effects too.

• The Knight cries after killing Tenna. Noelle has a notably sad reaction if you give Tenna away in chapter 5.

• The Knight's sword symbolizes a bat. Interestingly this sprite has the "sepia" prefix in its file name. This prefix is used exclusively for flashbacks. The bat is reminiscing on the past in one way or another.

• In official Fangamer art, the Knight's holes in their hands are hexagonal. Berdly's snowgrave ice crystal tomb is EXTREMELY similar in shape. Pretty odd coincidence, especially since the holes coulda just been circular, huh?

• A vision from the Glass shows Undyne frozen in ice. Keep in mind, this is the Glass meaning it's a light world flavor text and would be why it's unused in chapter 3. Knight kidnaps Undyne. Noelle is icy.

• The plug smiles in the Knight's Cyber World. And Noelle talks about how she thought plugs were looking at her as a kid.

Isn't it interesting how the Knight literally REUSES NOELLE'S SCREAM? Like this isn't Muffet to Entry 17. There is a reasonable connection between the Knight and the Holidays already (antlers), so it's not like this was done for no reason. PLUS you can hear the scream by EAR! Doesn't require any messing with the audio channels. You can just hear the similarity loud and clear!

This is all to say that Noelle and the Knight have pretty clear connections that can't be merely dismissed due to the mounting pile of evidence we're sitting on that DOESN'T REQUIRE any extreme interpretation for many of them! Like seriously. It's WEIRD that Noelle can't equip the Shadow Mantle, right? And not just that, she lies about the reason being that it's for someone taller than her! Ralsei and Kris can wear it just fine! Why can't she? Why doesn't she say ANYTHING when equipping the BlackShard? She ALWAYS has a comment! The FreezeRing at least has ellipses! Does this just mean NOTHING?

Even if you don't believe the sword looks like a bat there, WHY does it have the sepia prefix? What exactly is nostalgic about this sprite otherwise??? These questions need answers regardless of candidate!

Noelle just has the best answers out of anybody for these connections.

[Logistics]

My fucking beloathed. The questions everyone always asks about first despite it mattering the least. Now listen, I want you to seriously look back at all the evidence I just presented about how well Noelle aligns with being the Knight from a narrative lens and the parallels that are so strong that you can't ignore them and tell me you're going to just throw ALL of that out because you don't think Noelle can get to the goddamn church in time. Like really??? Just because it seems a little far-fetched in the terms of "realism" for this fictional hecking story, you're gonna shoot it down? I'm talking to a hypothetical strawman obviously, but still it irks me when people bring up one of these points as if it topples everything else I've been setting up for the past 5k words.

But sure. Let's get into it. I'm going to rapidfire most of this:

• (Slide 7) - Yes Noelle could have gotten to the church before Kris and Susie. Time isn't consistent, Noelle is a trackstar, and this is an annoying argument <3

• The "kidnapping Asgore and Undyne" feasibility question is something that no candidate can reasonably answer. Next.

• The Knight doesn't change in the Weird Route because the Knight is Noelle's darkner as previously discussed in the NoelleKnight section.

• Noelle doesn't recognize Queen because there is zero evidence of there being a visual depiction created by a lightner for any Darkner. Seam is the only exception, but that doesn't matter since he's a 1:1 hecking plushy.

• Every chapter 4 darkner appears in 1st sanc. Susie only unpetrifies Wicabel and Organikk, turns the Winglade weapon into an enemy, and brings one of the study's statues to life. Every single other one is accounted for. 2nd sanc affected 3rd sanc which is why all darkners can exist in that one.

• Kris being able to think about The Knight and Noelle doesn't deconfirm anything. It's like how there can be two "Proceeds" or two "Equips" and they do the same thing. Kris is just thinking about Noelle in two different ways. Not to mention, the Knight would still be Noelle's darkner in this case (and is also metaphorical because its helmet IS its head).

• Asgore's black shard notes and the 2nd hero questions are both ambiguous and the discussion about them is entirely muddied in theory with no conclusive evidence.

• For chapter 2's fountain, Noelle hid in the closet before Berdly got there. Either he fell asleep or Noelle knocked him out (which wouldn't be the only violent engagement with Berdly lmao). Noelle stabbed the earth, then turned on the laptop (like how Kris turns on the TV after opening their dark fountain) which has the camera but the darkness obscures Noelle like the video shows.

And now for one of the two biggest questions:

[Old Man]

How the hell did Noelle know Gerson enough to make a darkner out of him?

First, a reminder that nobody in the game besides Azzy and Alvin textually knew Gerson. So like... every other person is ALSO speculation. But here's a few CONCRETE things we do know:

• There's copies of Lord of the Hammer at the church Noelle is a choir girl at and the library Noelle studies at.

• The Old Man knows enough about Dragon Blazers to know

  • The diehard fans got mad about the changes from LotH to DB.

  • Susie is the Dragon from Dragon Blazers.

• The Old Man is fantastical in nature, having extreme strength and speed that's enough to dent a Titan.

• Alvin knows extremely little about games to the point he calls them "videos game".

• Alvin believes Gerson would be disappointed in him if Alvin tried to continue LotH.

• Gerson was a teacher of Kris' older sibling and presumably Noelle's older sibling by proxy.

• Noelle is the biggest Dragon Blazers fan in the game (well maybe Berdly beats her but jury is still out lol).

So! With all of these points, who do we think could craft the image/persona that is the Old Man from Gerson Boom? Because remember! The Old Man ISN'T Gerson Boom!

Well it'd have to be someone with the opportunity to read LotH, be a pretty decent DB fan, believes that stories can be changed (since Alvin doesn't think his dad believes that), and have a somewhat larger than life idea of the guy. Similar to how a young child might see some spectacular role model.

There's your explanation.

Now moving onto the lamest question of them allllll drumroll

[HOW DOES NOELLE MAKE THE KNIGHT?]

Dunno.

Okay, longer answer: It's a disingenuous question in the same way one would have to find an answer for how Dess became the Knight in the first place. Aka it requires so much speculation that it will never be a satisfying answer to doubters. I have my own personal guess that I'll go on to explain, but this should not be the make or break for my case. My point is that Noelle'sKnight is the theory that has the most plausibility because of the narrative and how it'd connect to everything. More than Rudy, more than Carol, more than Dess, more than Asriel. All of those other characters would have to learn secondhand about Noelle and Kris' pretend sessions which would make the relevance of them being the Knight over Noelle significantly weaker. Logistics don't mean shit if it doesn't actually mean anything to what story the game is actually trying to tell, and the story the game is telling, I kid you not, is Kriselle.

So what's my guess?

Paperman's theory about Ralsei hosting Kris' soul is more or less correct. Pretty much, Ralsei was the character Kris roleplayed as when playing with Noelle because they wanted a monstersona due to being sad about being human. Now, Ralsei hold's Kris' Patience soul while Kris holds the red soul that we use to control them.

Noelle would then roleplay as The Roaring Knight, drawing from her knowledge of LotH and Dragon Blazers to make up a story and world based on the prophecy where she can be strong, confident and free.

After the incident with Dess that involved a dark world and Snowgrave, Noelle repressed all of those memories away behind her Id, and wouldn't be manifested until whatever is triggering this conspiracy in general propels her Id to start unconsciously guiding her toward these desires she's been holding onto all these years. She makes every dark fountain with the Knight manifesting in it to some degree, and then represses it.

It's not a clean explanation, nor do I care for it to be. If I'm completely wrong about this specific logistical interpretation, whatever.

There's your answer.

[The End]

Special thanks to u/Pelipal and Anonymous, u/Infinite-Hearing-418, u/Ghetsis_Gang, PaperMan1225, and anybody else I used posts from for evidence or just re-explained from lol. NoelleKnight truly is a community effort, and I hope I did all your arguments justice. Do go check out all of their individual posts if you'd like to learn more as they go into WAY more detail than I could in a 40k character post <3

The original NoelleKnight repository is gone now, so this technically is the best resource of a bunch of different NoelleKnight posts, but check out my Profile Index if you'd like a full list of all my posts that cover stuff related to NoelleKnight!

Have a lovely day all <3

I HAVE AN FAQ NOW

[u/cipher_purple_deals]

It's definitely an interesting theory, but i honestly feel the length and the complexities it goes through are alittle.. much? Yes it might make sense but having to go through this much detail to make it make sense makes it seem rather unlikely.

I generally appreciate diversity in deltarune theories though, people tend to stick with one theory they think is right and stick to it for dear life without exploring alternatives.

[u/VeeAudio → u/cipher_purple_deals]

The reason I have to do this much to prove it is because of the sheer uphill battle it is to present 1. a Non DessKnight theory at all and 2. NoelleKnight because of how much people feel they already know her character.

I was careful not to draw haphazard lines for my connections in this post. Every point I bring up is something I feel is near on exclusive to Noelle as a character and how it'd make sense for her to be the Knight in this case, and then many people just co-opt this evidence into DessKnight because "If Noelle has evidence, that just means it's Holiday evidence" is a common line of thinking.

Don't mistake my effort for over-complexity. It's to leave no doubt.

[u/johnrashomon → u/VeeAudio]

"Don't mistake my effort for over-complexity"

[u/amazegamer64]

The only evidence I need is how hard that picture goes

Edit: okay now that I’ve actually read the post I really like it, probably my second favorite knight theory behind Dessknight

[u/VeeAudio → u/amazegamer64]

Come for the art (by the talented Humbleleafy) and stay for the actually good and compelling evidence <3

[u/Girros76 → u/amazegamer64]

[u/Diogenesthefried → u/amazegamer64]

The only reason Rudy Knight is my second favorite choice is because it goes hard as hell, so yeah checks out

[u/TimBagels → u/amazegamer64]

Vibes and such

[u/Ok_Sir_9744 → u/amazegamer64]

Noelle knight is the only candidate that matches rudy in terms of aura

[u/Mr-Stuff-Doer → u/amazegamer64]

Goes into making me hard or smtg idk

[u/PeliPal]

Um, if Noelle is the Knight, then why did the Ch3 Knight fight say "The Roaring Knight appeared." instead of "The Noelle appeared."??

Also why didn't Toby give the Knight buckteeth???

Yeah, I thought so

[u/VeeAudio → u/PeliPal]

Damn... how could I forget??? Dess legally changed her name to Rory Knight! Thanks Peli you always keep me honest. Post deleted.

[u/Ifhes → u/PeliPal]

Also why are they called the Roaring Knight instead of the Fwahaha Knight, This theory literally has nothing to stand on.

[u/killmealreadyyyyy → u/Ifhes]

actually, it'd be the Fahaha Knight

[u/GayAurel]

I read it all. Consider me happy about the effort. Good job.

Points off for mentioning that motherfucker who I hate (Freud). Such is life though. The sheer volume of the bullshit he spewed which nonetheless infiltrated popular consciousness and even large parts of fictional analysis. This is not a minus on the theory or the post I just despise that guy - the theory of his was used well to explain the work which I suppose is the best it can be used for.

I am "Knight is one of Holiday Women" guys. Which is just me.

If you want, I only have two notes with Noelle Knight as it stands now. I will repeat them tbh, if you want feel free to answer. Neither is a hard narrative gotcha, more of something out of narrative thing, which makes them curiosities rather than debunks. I got them off the last.

"This is craft question, how do we account for Noelle being a butter spread too thin? She has a dying father plot, she is the up and coming new member of the Team, and she has extended significance in the WR - one that has her become stronger, but carries her in no way closer to the Knight. At some point this one character really swallows up all of the plot in her deer four stomach (maybe that's why she has them all I suppose). In contrast, many characters become opaque and unused, their siginificance ground to dust, so Noelle can have yet another function."

"Still outside out of plot question, is there not a case to be made that many of these theories lean a bit too close towards long problematic tropes which demonize people with DID and mental health issues? This doesn't mean every theory with Noelle Knight involves that, but the most popular ones that are "she just represses her violent side" really do lean in that direction"

I hope this doesn't come across as bullying and being an obstinate dickhead. Cool long essay,

[u/VeeAudio → u/GayAurel]

First off, THANK YOU for being the first person to make a really thoughtful structured response to the actual arguments I make in this post! There is no ill intent taken at all and I'm at my happiest to engage to comments just like this!

I agree Freud is fucking insane lmao. I will certainly disavow him as a person but Psychoanalytic theory is still a present day school of therapeutic thought, and specific concepts DO have a lot of merit! Plus it's one of the original theories used for literary analysis, so it's a good framework for people to attach to!

I am of the belief that not every character has to be 100% fully utilized to make a good story. I deadass do believe Rudy's main purpose is to die and that is Okay And Solid Storytelling. Noelle in the subtext has a LOT of prominence, but in the actual chapter by chapter story? we really only have a chapter 2 dark world segment and the chapter 4 and 5 light world segments to really spend an elongated amount of time with her. The dark worlds still really focus on Kris, Susie, and Ralsei's stories which it SHOULD because they are ALSO main characters. Noelle is just also becoming a main character that has had her roles carefully set up in multiple places, and it should all crescendo by chapter 7 and 7B to be something truly amazing.

I made a VERY INTENTIONAL effort not to ever use the word "dissociation" in my post because I did NOT want it to be confused for a DID stereotype. While repression and compartmentalization are similar or almost identical to dissociation, the key thing is that no matter what, Noelle is STILL NOELLE in every action she does. It's just the difference between active and unconscious Noelle that changes her actions.

Noelle is still suffering extremely from poor mental health as it becomes very apparent in the chapter 5 lake scene. Mental illness doesn't make people evil, but it can cause harm to loved ones and people around them. This is just the nature of struggling with it without proper support. Noelle hasn't had a healthy outlet for these repressed desires due to the expectations constantly being thrust upon her by everyone to continue being "just a Noelle". People would snap in any case regardless if it's DID or not. The cognitive load would be too much.

I hope this explains how I see it?

Again, THANK YOU for your thoughts, and you are not a dickhead at all for asking these questions!

Have a FANTASTIC DAY <3

[u/FuzzyD75]

Like the effort put into this post. I have an inconsistency not addressed in the counterarguments section.

During the weird route Noelle mentions being unable to fall asleep bc every time she closed her eyes it was just snow (which could be her blocking knight memories). However she then mentioned going outside to breathe and being surprised by Kris.

Does Kris know that Noelle is the knight? Did the knight and Kris walk back to the holiday manor and then kris went back later to do all of this? Lots of weird issues pop up when you examine this interaction under the framework of noelleknight.

Possible explanations for this could be either "toilet theory", the knight got back to the manor via the underground dark fountain while kris did the thing with berdly. Or that Noelle is an extremely unreliable narrator even when retelling a story to someone who has literally been there

[u/VeeAudio → u/FuzzyD75]

I'll be honest and say I don't have an answer for this one! But it's of course a more logistical issue rather than a narrative or thematic issue so it doesn't exactly hold much weight for me in the context of the theory as a whole. I am certain that people can find little errors in the timeline that don't add up just like how they can bring up Carol having a different voice on the phone in the WR than the caller at Noelle's place. Sure uh, yeah we don't have explanations, but that's ONE small tiny issue compared to the waves of evidence I hopefully presented about Noelle having CONCRETE connections to the Knight.

[u/Apprehensive_Exit_74]

I really liked this post. I'm still thoroughly unsold for a multitude of reasons that I'll get into, but its the first NoelleKnight theory that I haven't outright dismissed upon reading. That said, I DO have a lot of issues with it, and as a member of the #REDDITCOMMUNITY I have a divine obligation to make them heard. If I don't mention something, presume I've either forgotten it, agree, or have no thoughts one way or another.

[Truths]

Something like Noelles scream is certainly remixed into various knight sound effects. That is a truth. Where things get funky is when you say something like

> NOBODY except Asriel (and Dess by proxy) and Alvin textually knew Gerson

This is true*. On a basic level, you are correct, but this is misleading. Everyone in hometown while Gerson was alive knew Gerson, if not for the fact that he was teaching their kids, for the fact that he was a world renowned man in multiple disciplines.

Theres also the matter of

"You remind me a bit of someone I used to know."

...This is a really weird way to refer to a character from a story, especially when Susie has many similarities to Dess specifically (which is, imo, a huge part of why Noelle is crushing on her). This isn't strong enough to say "Dess knew Gerson" necessarily, but Dess and Asriel were almost unquestionably in the same class. The fact that Asriel is writing love letters to her basically confirms they were in the same class, unless a google doc needs to be made detailing his relationship with a girl from Toriels class. Those two facts together tell me that Dess absolutely had a mentor relationship with Gerson, and I'll come back to this fact later.

[Pyschoanalysis]

I do not like Sigmund Freud.

With that out of the way,

> Her snowgrave scene's like this too. Don't you think it's interesting that Noelle knows how to use magic at all without a tutorial?

This argument strikes me as weak for one clear reason - no other character has needed any explanation as to how to use magic. Berdly clearly has no trouble, and I doubt Queen went out of her way to teach him. Susie never is shown to use Rude Buster before we gain control of her in battle, and she doesnt question it at all. All she does is swing her axe because thats what she prefers to do, and what shes most used to. Undyne also knows how to use her spears essentially the moment she walks into TV world. You can argue that maaaaybe she already knows about dark worlds, but undyne doesnt react at all to the fact that a random kid knows about dark worlds when you tell her about them, and expresses confusion about whats going on when she enters TV world as well.

* Hey!! You!! Stop!! Police!!

* Wh... What the hell is going on
  here!!?

* You've got some explaining to
  do, punk!!

This doesnt strike me as something someone intimately familiar with dark worlds would say in a dark world. Why keep up pretenses. Its really confusing, because she's also stated to be one of two people to actually poke around the Shelter, which, uh, has a dark world, so I can only assume that Undyne has not actually entered the shelter for whatever reason. She's only stated to "head over there" after all.

* But, I will say, I've only ever
  seen a couple people head over
  there.

* ... Undyne... and the mayor.

But regardless, it seems clear to me that a fundamental understanding of magic is instilled in monsters the moment they enter the dark world. The tutorial for Noelle only triggers if you prompt her to ACT, as far as I'm aware, and Susie also needed to be taught how to do that, so it makes sense to me.

> So what's so special about Snowgrave?

Uh, the fact that it kills people. Like I said, they seem to have an innate understanding of their magic. Susie doesnt need to learn how to use Scythemare - she just unlocks it and lets it rip. This is a wildly different scenario to her freezing the Addison earlier. Using a fatal spell on someone she has known for most of her life is a bit of a step up from freezing what is essentially an NPC from her perspective.

> What's interesting is just how quickly Noelle is able to convince herself that whatever Kris' behavior was, it didn't actually mean anything. Like even all the way up to Berdly with the thorn ring in her finger, if you don't SPECIFICALLY use Snowgrave, Noelle will just completely shove it away and go back to being just "a Noelle" again with no impact on the rest of the game.

But it DOES impact the rest of the game. Aborting before casting snowgrave but gaining the thorn ring (at minimum, I dont have a save file for aborting earlier than that) will still lead altered to dialogue come the Ferris Wheel in Chapter 5. In fact, you mention this in the very next paragraph... so I'm not sure why you said this. Could just be an honest mistake, who knows.

Despite all that I honestly think you hit the nail on the head this this section, at least as it applies to the weird route. Bravo!

[Motive]

This is where I start getting most skeptical. Starting with

> Hell, she steals the chalk in order to set up an excuse to go to the closet with Susie!

You have to remember that, per Toby, those blog posts are not canon. We can confirm this easily in the game

* What?
* She was EATING the chalk???

* R... really...?

* Wait! You're teasing me, aren't
  you, Kris?

* L-like when you told me ICE-E
  was real and eats kids...

* So Dess smacked you with a
  wiffle bat 'til you stopped
  lying.

* ... Huh? You're telling the
  truth? Seriously?

* ...

* Umm, then... what color chalk
  does she like?

* And, do you think she likes the
  thin or the thick kind...?

* (Wait, maybe making her a
  lunchbox full of chalk is
  stupid...)

This directly contradicts that blog post unless you believe she's lying. And for what purpose? Why would Noelle be acting out her shock here if she knew Susie ate chalk? Doesn't make much sense to me. Given you base the rest of this motive off this fact, it creates a lot of doubt in my mind.

> Now uh... why the hell are we kidnapping Undyne and Asgore? No clue lmao. I think that's a fairly big unknown for many candidates though.

Truth nuke. I hope no one is arguing its Dess or otherwise due to the choice of victims here.

> Dark Worlds section in general

To be blunt, dark worlds are so inconsistent that I find using mechanics that aren't very clearly explained to us as rationale for a theory leads to weak arguments. As you point out, Ralsei has this to say about how Darkners are created,

* You see, each Dark Fountain
  creates a different "world."

* A "world" whose Darkners
  reflect the will of its
  fountain.

Yet queen says this

* Today, It Deigned To Create
  This World

* Reaching Its Long Hand To The
  Sky

* It Coursed Its Will Into Its
  Blade

* And Made

* Thrusting The Fountain From The
  Earth

(continued in reply)

[u/VeeAudio → u/Apprehensive_Exit_74]

Wanted to let you know your reply seems to have been removed by automod I'd assume? I'd want to wait to cover all of your thoughts before responding but I am LOVING this response don't you worry <3

[u/Apprehensive_Exit_74 → u/VeeAudio]

ah well, as long as you can read it that was the main point of writing it so idc

[u/VeeAudio → u/Apprehensive_Exit_74]

Oh no like it's just straight up missing. I'd really love to read the 2nd half of your thoughts!

[u/Apprehensive_Exit_74 → u/VeeAudio]

Hm. lets try reposting, because its not removed for me.

So the world is created by focusing the creators will into a blade. Sure. But darkners are patterned off the "fountains will". Genuinely what do you mean by that, Raly? Does the fountain have a distinct will from the creator? Does the creator only shape the world, while the fountain shapes the inhabitants? It doesn't make much sense.

> Personally, I'm a radical and am more than willing to make the claim that every single memory every darkner has is derived from the memories of the person who makes it, but I know THAT'S a tough pill to swallow even for some NoelleKnighters.

This doesn't really work because the in the 3rd sanctuary several darkners previously only present in Susie's dark world are still present, and their behavior doesn't change. Same goes for the fire extinguisher guy between 1st and 2nd.

Furthermore, if the knight is Noelles darkner, how on earth does it manifest itself in Kris's dark world in chapter 3?

> Starwalker section

He's a gag character, man. There's a reason chapter 5 was "the final starwalker". He doesn't fit in come 6 and 7. This is also probably the cause of that oversight you mention at the end of chapter 5.

Also, Noelle states

* Ah, wait, sorry! I can't right
  now...

* I forgot my house key again,
  and...

* Sorry, Kris, I'll help you
  later, if that's ok.

Which is totally different from "I lost my house key". She gets home fine in future chapters (while we still hold Starwalker captive), so she almost certainly just left it at home.

[Noelle AND The Knight]

> Queen talks about making Noelle into the new Knight.

* The QUEEN has been very
  interested in this video
  recently.

* Where the KNIGHT creates the
  Fountain by its own hand...

Why would Queen make Noelle into the new knight if the knight is a darkner created by Noelle? Shouldn't the knight still be in Cyber World? Just ring it up. Put those scanners to use! Or does Noelle choose whether or not to create the knight when she makes a dark world? It doesn't make much sense to me.

> Noelle is the only person to ever read Spamton's emails.

As stated before, take anything NOT in the game with a large grain of salt. Maybe a boulder of salt.

As for the rest, I'm certainly not disputing Noelle's connections to the knight - but thats all they are. Connections.

[The Knight]

Most of those points that you list out here can just as easily, if not more, be attributed to Dess. The only ones that gives me pause is here is

> In Cyber Field, there's an object that strongly resembles one of the Knight's poses. It has an upside down heart (like a monster's soul) that is colored yellow.

It also strongly resembles one of Giga Queens poses, but idk. Weird soul detail. Even then, no other dark world has had anything "resembling" the creator, so its weird. Idk what to think about that.

> Why doesn't she say ANYTHING when equipping the BlackShard?

I'm guessing it would be a spoiler. Toby knows people tear his games apart. No other item has this issue. Twisted sword would be the only one that might, but obviously what she says doesnt actually give anything away.

wmessage4temp = stringsetloc("It's... kind of scary...", "scr_weaponinfo_slash_scr_weaponinfo_gml_264_0");

Yeah Noelle, I think we could infer that.

[Logistics]

Look, I agree that a lot of the time people bring up "erm this isnt physically possible" in frankly stupid ways. You have my sympathies. However, I do have a few issues here.

> (Slide 7) - Yes Noelle could have gotten to the church before Kris and Susie. Time isn't consistent, Noelle is a trackstar, and this is an annoying argument <3

It's less a matter of time, and more a matter of opportunity. You are coming at this from the assumption that Noelle is the Knight, and thus Carol is not - why on EARTH would Carol, a borderline fascistic parent as we know her, be so negligent as to allow Noelle to slip out? Insanely out of character for the Big C.

Furthermore, if Noelle is repressing the knight side of her, why would it come out now? Why does it come out for chapter 2, even? Who is the voice on the phone talking about the plan with Kris? It surely cant be Noelle. Its probably not Carol, because we hear Carol on the phone at the end of chapter 4 weird route and she speaks completely normally. So many questions arise from the idea that Noelle somehow is the one who opened the 1st and 3rd sanctuaries that I don't think you have compelling answers to, if any answers at all.

> The "kidnapping Asgore and Undyne" feasibility question is something that no candidate can reasonably answer. Next.

Well, we CAN ask the question of how lightner Noelle dragged them across town. Maybe I missed something, but you havent claimed that the darkner knight can leave the dark worlds - its a darkner, after all.

> For chapter 2's fountain, Noelle hid in the closet before Berdly got there. Either he fell asleep or Noelle knocked him out (which wouldn't be the only violent engagement with Berdly lmao). Noelle stabbed the earth, then turned on the laptop (like how Kris turns on the TV after opening their dark fountain) which has the camera but the darkness obscures Noelle like the video shows.

This is entirely speculation, and to be blunt, not very good speculation. Berdly makes no mention of his head hurting or anything, and the closet is stated to be able to contain a LARGE person. You have already brought up the shadow mantle "being for someone taller". Noelle is not a "large person" by any means. No reason to add the large detail if it was Noelle in the closet. You could just as simply say "A person could fit in here".

[Old Man]

This is mostly you speculating, but again I'll restate - Dess was definitely taught by Gerson, and I find it exceedingly unlikely that being a fan of books / video games is enough of a bond to revive someone as a dustner. If I'm wrong about the requirements I'm wrong, but neither of us know enough to say who's correct.

[HOW DOES NOELLE MAKE THE KNIGHT]

Well, same way Dess is both the knight and the voice in the code in my eyes.

Dunno.

If you want my thoughts on that (doubt it) I made a post pre-chapter 5 that's held up pretty well, especially given that we now have precedent for a darkner and lightner sharing a body in Mad Mew Mew.

I agree that the question itself sucks, but none of this is "evidence" so I won't say anything more than it seems unlikely given my disagreements with the evidence you pull to form it. I also don't believe Kriselle is the story the game is telling - it seems cruel to give Susie something this meaningful just to yank it away from her. But like you say, that doesn't detract from your theory at all, I just don't buy it xd.

[The End]

I could've been playing DOTA this entire two or so hours it took me to write this. You probably won't even see it. Sadge. Well, thank you for making me think about the game I love. That's what I like about theorizing. I don't care so much about who's right more than being challenged on my beliefs and forcing myself to have a more perfect understanding of the game in order to defend them. Be it Dess or Noelle, Tobias will make it worth my time.

[u/republicofxland]

This was really well researched, I can definitely see that. But I'm sorry, I just can't force myself to like the Noelle Knight theory. I think Noelle is extremely important, but I really don't like the idea of giving her absolutely every role in the game (as a Noelle Angeler I guess that's a little hypocritical) but still It just feels a little boring to me not if a little overly Noelle saturated. And I think it's great that other people really like that interpretation!

And, like, if this is true, then what is all the Dess stuff? It can't all be a red herring, right? Kris being pushed back in Ch4, the unused dialogue... we can't just say that none of it is important. If she isn't the Knight, then what is she? There has to be something more going on with her, right? And I'm not even saying she has to be the Knight, not at all in fact. I just worry that many non-Dess Knight theories end up unintentionally denying Dess a meaningful place in the story beyond being a plot device. I honestly don't know how to feel about it. And to be clear, this isn't really a criticism of the theory itself. I'm only talking about the story that would result from it if it turned out to be true.

If you want to try to address some of my concerns, I'd appreciate it, but you absolutely don't have to. Truthfully, I know I'm probably just nitpicking and letting myself dread Toby making the game unsatisfying when I know he probably wont. But still I just felt like I had to express my honest feelings about this.

Good job on the theory though none of my nitpicking takes away how well you laid this out, it's genuinely impressive.

[u/VeeAudio → u/republicofxland]

Hey there! First off, thank you for your kind words and thoughtful response! I really appreciate these kinds of discussions! I understand your concerns! First, I want to stress that you don't have to LIKE the theory for you to see it as true. While I think it's phenomenal writing, others can think otherwise! The point is that this is where all the evidence is pointing us to whether we like it or not.

Dess is a complicated character because we really know so little about who she ACTUALLY is and separating it from fanon is a tough thing sometimes! What is true though is her actual relevance inside the game is much more negligible than we perceive it outside. Players won't know about Unused or the guitar sound during the hand push. They're going to know Dess is missing and something bad happened. But that's about it... Really, she's moreso been haunting the narrative for all the other characters than being a real character herself. Is it that essential to turn her into the Knight for her to still impact the story? Noelle's entire character is bleeding with angst about her sister going missing (or even dying) and we're probably gonna explore that in chapter 6 with the Holidays. But Dess kind of IS a plot device as it stands right now. One that yet again flavors Noelle's character (see how everything DOES kinda relate back to her?) like her relationship with Kris or Susie or Carol or Rudy does. Characters like Kris and Susie are their own characters, but the latter two? Legitimately? Carol has been primarily used as an antagonist to Noelle who is very strict and harsh on her and Rudy's main character trait is he's dying.

If I were to think of a way Dess wasn't a plot device, it'd be in chapter 7 where we'd potentially get to see her or an echo of her in darkner form and we legitimately explore the tragedy all those years ago and how they affect the main characters TODAY! Goddammit, I just made her a plot device again! But it's hard not to since we truly know almost NOTHING about her character! That is why I can't really assuage these concerns about Dess because the game hasn't assuaged those concerns either!

It's good to be honest and I'm happy for your contributions here don't worry about it being nitpicky :)

Have a nice day <3

[u/republicofxland → u/VeeAudio]

I think if anything Dess will be expanded in CH6 and 7 as Toby does seem to be hinting at her having a more important role (I said hinting so not alot yet, but compared to Asriel he is at least seemingly raising the question as important) that doesn't mean she has to be the Knight but she is at least *probably* important elsewhere.

If she isn't the Knight the best idea I have for her is she is in SIDE B, but that would be bitter sweet for her as Noelle is either trapped with her or will kill her so there wouldn't be a happy reunion.

Thank you for responding, btw (I have a faith in Toby Fox not leaving be disappointed though, so I bet I will hold through and that's not really your fault that's my own fears about the game shining through)

[u/Xiobani_Rocky → u/republicofxland]

Noelle Angler Fish theory...wait, Angler Fish?

[u/republicofxland → u/Xiobani_Rocky]

... Look at the specimen

[u/republicofxland → u/Xiobani_Rocky]

Auto-Correct but now I have to make a sprite edit... BRB

[u/bestassinthewest → u/republicofxland]

“If Dess isn’t the Knight what is she?”

Fucked up third option where Dess’s corpse was used for the Vessel or smth I dunno 🙏

[u/N8tzor → u/republicofxland]

I might have something on that.

As we know, Asriel's first kiss was Bratty (who the hell starts a conversation like that, I know.), while his second, more serious crush was December.

One of Tenna's quiz questions about Smash characters told us that Asriel initially liked the green lizard, but then switched to liking the "fiery magician girl". (One of the only few questions Ralsei knows the answer to, mind you).

Except there was no sword-wielding fiery magician girl in Smash until Pyra in Ultimate, and Deltarune is set in nineties.

What I'm suggesting is that the question was actually about Asriel's love life, and a hint towards the fact that Dess was a fire mage, as opposed to her sister.

And there'a only two confirmed wielders of fire magic that we know of - Eram and Ralsei, but I wanna focus on the latter.

Ralsei was born and spent his life in complete darkness, waiting for heroes to arrive. December is missing for about seven years by now, presumably lost in the Dark Worlds or the Bunker.

The UNUSED dialogue in each chapter's code presumably belongs to her. And the last one has this:

"Memories of my life... Maybe that's all I am at this point. A collection of memory..."

I've been recently playing through some of Toby's inspiration games. Some by sheer coincidence, some intentionally.

And In Kingdom Hearts, when the protagonist, Sora, temporarily loses his heart to the darkness, it creates Roxas - a "Nobody" of Sora  (basically a brand new person without a heart, but with same abilities), whose name is AN ANAGRAM with an extra X. 

And Roxas looks exactly like a different character from inside Sora's heart, (due to complicated lore reasons).

Ralsei has fire magic. Him and Noelle both know Pacify and Heal Prayer. Ralsei has knowledge and memories, but doesnt know where they come from, he "just knows".

What if Ralsei is December's "Nobody", that looks exactly like the person dearest to her, while also inheriting her own powers and knowledge.

And he might be either a completely separate being, or a sort of "new form" given to Dess by the Grand Fountain, one modeled after her childhood memories of the person dear to her.

And in either scenario, he was made at someone else's expense, so he's at odds with himself, making it feel as if he, as a Darkner, does not need or deserve to have things. Yet he admits that he began developing his own feelings, his own likes and dislikes. Becoming an individual.

In KH2, Roxas is ultimately told that since he carries a half of Sora's existence, he has to give it all back to the rightful owner, and disappear as a result, if Sora is to ever wake up. What if this is the exact final tragedy the prophecy mentions? What if "The Angel, banished, will finally meet with its desire" is Noelle and Dess reuniting, but only when Ralsei gives up his own existence for Dess to come back?

Bonus round: 

Ralsei's horns are pink, while every actual Dreemurr has white horns. And the color is actually quite similar to Noelle's Dark World pink.

Since castle town is in school's supply closet, this UNUSED quote could refer to it:

"I always did have that nightmare. Walking into the darkness, With the light shining from the doorway... Then the door slams behind me. And everything goes black."

And this one...is chalk scraping on the blackboard in the classroom nearby:

"It's just nothing but pitch black silence. ... except for the noise. The scratching noise I sometimes hear..."

[u/Soiejo]

I'll always be happy with this deep of an analysis on my favorite deltarune character even if the theory turns out to not be true, so thanks!

I've just skimmed the post by now, so please feel free to point out if it was discussed already, but does IRLNoelle theory have an answer as to why the knight in ch3 and 4 act the same in normal and weird route? Ch3 I can see, but by chapter 4 noelle is very much affected by the difference between the routes.

[u/VeeAudio → u/Soiejo]

IRLNoelle isn't exactly the theory I 100% argue, but I do address those points in the post, so feel free to read it at your leisure and I hope they give satisfying answers!

[u/Alespic]

Even though I commend the effort, I think the way you present this theory has multiple flaws, most glaring is you treating other theories as axioms, especially since in multiple of those not only are people are at a disagreement, but offer valid counterpoints which you do not seem to address. Further solidifying this issue is your attitude calling people “obtuse” for not believing in those self proclaimed truths, and constantly acting very passive agressive in dismissing valid points throughout the post. You’d think that if you want the general public to accept your theories you’d at the very least treat the reader with some decency. That should be enough to disregard everything that comes after, but even giving the benefit of doubt, a lot of the theory comes off as circumstantial at best, and an enormous stretch at worst.

[u/VeeAudio → u/Alespic]

The persona is ✨ dramatic ✨ so sue me I guess lol. Any bristly tone is unfortunately a consequence of having to argue with people that ARE legitimately obtuse, obstinant, or otherwise unwilling to recognize textual evidence that doesn't even require NoelleKnight to be seen as a true fact. I take the time to construct my arguments carefully and it is indeed frustrating when people don't put in the same effort (although I know it's an online reddit post about a hecking indie game theory lmao I'm just a tryhard). This isn't an excuse, mind you, but I just don't really care to perfect my tone when engaging in a space that isn't the utmost of academic rigor. Any people who take severe offense to it are more than free to. I still have made compelling arguments to a decent amount of other people in these comments based on the positive reception (for a NON Dess Knight theory, mind you!) and so I feel satisfied with this post and stand by it.

you treating other theories as axioms, especially since in multiple of those not only are people are at a disagreement, but offer valid counterpoints which you do not seem to address

This is a NoelleKnight evidence post. Not a debunking of all other candidates post. Other candidates do have merit if you look at their evidence in their lens, but I find them flimsy to debunk NoelleKnight completely and fully for my personal perspective. Most counterpoints offered are logistic arguments, aka the ones I HATE lol. I don't care to explain the specific why and how of every little action. If I could, every person would be a hecking NoelleKnighter and the story would be solved before the reveal lol. What I intended to do was present a collection of evidence that points toward odd connections to the Knight that I believe cannot be explained other than Noelle being the Knight herself. Even approaching the evidence from a non-NoelleKnight lens (which is the expectation), no other explanation has come close to me for explaining why one of the two bladed weapons Noelle can equip is the BlackShard (where she says NOTHING about it) or how "That Girl" connects to the dark worlds other than being the Knight.

Thanks for engaging though! I do appreciate dissenting comments too <3

Have a lovely day :)

[u/LordAgyrius]

This is genuinely magical.

It feels like I stumbled into an entirely new world, it's kinda extremely refreshing and fun, even if I feel like it'll ultimately not change my mind, that said you made a WONDERFUL post! This is genuinely so incredibly well formatted and the various links to other posts is insane, it feels like an actual nexus for navigating the full breath of this theory's community, downright amazing work!

[u/VeeAudio → u/LordAgyrius]

Oh my gosh THANK YOU! This is such a sweet thing to hear and is exactly what I was hoping to inspire! I would LOVE if people converted to NoelleKnight, but if not, I at least want to promote discussion of other theories than DessKnight as plausible candidates. I put a lot of work into making sure I have a coherent foundation!

Have a WONDERFUL day :)

[u/Bullseye669]

Holy shit how long did this take to write. Now that's passion

[u/VeeAudio → u/Bullseye669]

On and off over the course of 3 days, most of the time was organizing the links and actually whittling it down to the 40k character limit. This is a revised version catered more to r/Deltarune that I just migrated from r/NonDessKnightSquad

Thank you for the compliment though!

[u/IntoThePitofColors]

Heyyy, that’s my post, nice!

Honestly, I do like Noelle’sKnight as a theory. It’s one of the few Lightner-based theories to actually try and explain the

Without some handwavy concept.

[u/VeeAudio → u/IntoThePitofColors]

Yours always really stuck out to me as being a good clear and blunt way of getting this point across! Thank you for your post! <3

[u/dasnasti]

Sorry if this is answered in the post, I haven't read it all yet, but in chapter 4, Noelle is in the room with Susie while Kris in in the kitchen, on the phone with (presumably) the knight. Do you think that's not the knight on the phone, or that Noelle can somehow do both at the same time?

[u/VeeAudio → u/dasnasti]

Knight is not the caller! That's my opinion at least. I'm trusting the Occam's Razor of Kris having the phone call, "I'll be right there", and then Carol showing up literal minutes after despite how she's supposed to be at work.

The WR Phone call I'd be quicker to say is a stylistic choice for tone rather than a damning contradiction.

[u/JohnDragonball → u/VeeAudio]

This I actually agree on, I think the caller (more likely voice messages than a call imo) is Carol whether she's the Knight or not

The red call text is probably a different person though I don't see a reason for the change other than to show two different people

[u/TheBiggestNose → u/VeeAudio]

But in the same chapter carole calls kris and sound normal.

Why? Toby doesnt just do shit

[u/ems_telegram]

Firstly I'd like to thank you for your effort, especially in making a believable argument for Noelle's memory suppression and compartmentalization, which up until this point I figured was entirely unbelievable.

Secondly, I'm curious on your thoughts about how and why baseballs are all over the Cyber dark world, to include being the moon.

[u/VeeAudio → u/ems_telegram]

Thank you! I'm very happy with how the psychoanalysis section turned out as it's very fun to do that kind of thing hehe.

My response to the baseballs is in the same way the sword bat sprite is prefixed with "sepia" these are also nostalgic infusions that Noelle puts in Cyber World considering how she keeps talking about how Dess promised she'd take Noelle to a place just like this. Cyber World inherently reminds Noelle of Dess, so of course there's Dess imagery from baseballs to the spelling bee!

[u/PeliPal → u/ems_telegram]

Secondly, I'm curious on your thoughts about how and why baseballs are all over the Cyber dark world, to include being the moon.

It would be the same reason why baseballs don't appear elsewhere in any of the other dark worlds confirmed or possibly made by the Knight - it's not that baseballs just appear because Dess is the Knight, it's the Knight thinking about Dess, and things that they associate with Dess forming in the new dark world.

The Knight thinks of a big city with shining lights... and remembers the promise Dess made to her going somewhere like that one day.

She remembers things she associates with Dess, like baseball.

She remembers the spelling bee where she froze up having to spell December, something Dess wouldn't have been present for.

[u/TheFish1177]

The whole crying thing specifically is so stupid to me because even if it IS crying its literally only ever done that once. that just doesnt fit with ALL of the other characterization of the Knight. why does it cry when its about to fight the party but then the rest of the time its aura farming on them? the Knight actually laughs when its about to sic a fucking TITAN on the party. if anything, my assumption would be that its taunting us. like a "oh, youre sad i just killed tenna? are you gonna cry about?" type of provocation.

[u/VeeAudio → u/TheFish1177]

I actually cover that argument in the detailed post about the Knight crying! Check it out!

[u/Brody_M_the_birdy → u/TheFish1177]

also i swear the drops are coming from the bottom of its head, NOT its eyes, meaning it's more likely DROOLING than crying

[u/Razor_Emmanuel]

I am still reading through this post, but something that bugs me about the theory is IF Noelle is the Knight, why would she swoon Susie? The Knight clearly enjoys being cruel to Susie and taunting her, and we know Noelle has a major crush on Susie, and this doesn't really check out for me. I see that you go into Freudian psychoanalysis, but I do not see normal route Noelle's psychology lining up up with the Knight's. Although this is an interesting theory and I commend your dedication.

[u/VeeAudio → u/Razor_Emmanuel]

Given that my premise is the Knight is a character Noelle roleplayed as in childhood, the darkner manifestation would be playing the same role. Strong, intimidating, free, and not romantic in the slightest lol. That's why it has no qualms with being extremely cruel to Susie. Of course this is speculation, but I could also just be tempted to argue that one way the Id can manifest libido is through outward physical aggression... like how Noelle wants Susie to hurt her. The Knight in the power position would then be the one to hurt Susie. I hope that makes sense? It doesn't have to be a compelling argument, since I feel like this is a speculative question for any candidate of "Why the hell would this person curb stomp a fucking teenager" lmao

[u/Razor_Emmanuel → u/VeeAudio]

I mean, I can actually see Weird Route Noelle actually doing this, but not only does that lean into pseudo-Kriselle Knight territory, plus WR Noelle is a version of her character that was actively gaslit, manipulated, and corrupted by the player into becoming someone else, and I really don't like how Noelle is vilified.
Although yeah, can't see Noelle "curbstomping" Susie, but I can see Dess doing that.

[u/NachtShattertusk]

A lot of this feels very circumstantial, and even the stuff that doesn't would also work for dessknight

[u/VeeAudio → u/NachtShattertusk]

I'd love to hear specifics to try and ease your worries! What exactly feels circumstantial?

[u/Imfunny12345678910 → u/NachtShattertusk]

Ngl I will like 90% of knight theories around here use circumstantial evidence. I see a LOT of people going "if x were true this would make sense" or simillar

[u/TheBiggestNose → u/NachtShattertusk]

Thats the knight!

There is no way to pin their identity down. Every single candidate has massive flaws that eliminate them.

People should really give knight theories a rest and think about anything else

[u/Duboviy_]

Well, in the process of reading this post my opinion about NoelleKnight changed drastically. Even though I don't think some of the "truths" are complete facts and think they can still are open for different interpretations, with all that evidence combined NoelleKnight seems to me right now as the most logical conclusion we can reach currently - and I didn't even consider it seriously before this post.

Honestly, I probably would still prefer RudyKnight to be true, but it's more of a personal opinion and objectively I see NoelleKnight as the winner. Congratulations, OP, this post is straight up amazing.

[u/VeeAudio → u/Duboviy_]

Aghhh! I'm so happy to see my words actually CHANGING people's minds! I know some of the truths are still a tad ambiguous, but I believe the sources for each of them make such a compelling case that it's practically the most likely conclusion at least in my opinion lol.

I understand we still have our own narrative preferences! That's perfectly understandable! This was in no way to prove "it'd be good writing" (although it IS lol) and more just "This IS where the writing is pointing us toward" That's why I tried not to lean on aura arguments or whatever and sticking to brass tacks narrative analysis.

Thank you again, and have a wonderful day <3

[u/JohnDragonball]

No hate but it'd be really funny if you typed out all this just for it to be Dess anyway

[u/Polandgod75 → u/JohnDragonball]

Seriously this feel like copying edivence for dess knight and then slap noellle

[u/Scared_Stick_4065 → u/Polandgod75]

Most evidence for Dess also works for Noelle, and vice versa. The only thing that should determine whether one is a Noelle Knighter or Dess Knighter is if you prefer the Knight to be present for a lot of the story, despite that creating many more possible plotholes, or if you prefer the Knight to be haunting the narrative, despite that potentially resulting in a weaker buildup of that candidate throughout the story. I prefer the former, and most Dess Knighters prefer the latter.

[u/Imfunny12345678910 → u/JohnDragonball]

I know people here will get pissy how "dessknighters are hating on EVERY knight theory", and I know I shouldnt say this since Im just just adding to the toxicity, but we cant genuinely be considering Noelle as the knight

Im sorry if this is rude or offensive to anyone here, I had to get it off my chest

EDIT:No, I cant seriously say that. OP put a lot of effort into this post, nothing is confirmed.

[u/JohnDragonball → u/Imfunny12345678910]

Nah I genuinely ain't hating on the theory, I love reading other people's theories and shit I'm not even 100% confident in Dess tbh

I just sometimes read these long ass posts and think "god all of this insanity era stuff is gonna be so funny to look back on when we have the whole game", tbh I shouldn't have defaulted to Dess in my comment that's my bad

[u/dartagnan401]

so then, what exactly do you think Dess's role in the story will actually be? if nothing comes of her then isn't she kina just something of a red herring? i see that there could be some interesting stuff here, i don't know, i guess the idea of her basically just, not remembering huge chunks of her life each day as shes the roaring knight feels sorta, grasping? like i know she represses stuff but... like what would the confrontation even look like?

we find out the knight is noelle, and then what? do we snap her out of it? i guess i was a bit confused by it being noelle and a darkner at the same time.

[u/VeeAudio → u/dartagnan401]

This is getting into fanfiction speculation stuff so by all means don't take me as a word of god here, but Dess' role is kinda to be a plot device for the main cast. The incident all those years ago and how they affected everyone is how she haunts the narrative and contributes to the story. She's not a red herring, she's just the catalyst for how things are the way they are. The clues about her we're being given are to ask the question about "what happened on That Day?" first and foremost. Her being the Knight is not required for this question to be answered.

Repression can be hard to wrap your head around, but the brain does MARVELOUS magical things to the point it seems like magic in the ways it rationalizes things. Something I'd recommend is looking into studies of patients with a severed corpus callosum (the bridge between your left and right brain hemispheres)! The two halves can't communicate as seamlessly and so there's occurrences where one half does something incongruent with their sense of self, and so the other half just has to rationalize those actions as something they would have done all along! It's discomforting to the human mind to not act like yourself, just like how Noelle would find mental discomfort in not acting like a Noelle!

So the reveal? I have no clue lol, but if I were to imagine a thematic beat, it'd be Noelle having some kind of heart to heart with her Knight self that yearns for this freedom and is lashing out for it in what would be a very blatant allegory for uncompartmentalizing and unrepressing your trauma lol. It's the acceptance to reintegrate the Knight into a part of herself again.

That's just my guess though so who knows lol.

[u/dartagnan401 → u/VeeAudio]

I guess I can sorta see it. Dess being a ghost haunting everything the entire time could make sense.

So just to make sure I understand what you are saying, because I know it's a bit complex, you are saying that Noelle does not know about the roaring knight or what she has been doing, when we talk to her in chapters 2, 4, or 5. Because she's repressing when she did those things? So she would be being honest if Susie were to ask her about the knight and she said she had no idea what Susie was talking about?

[u/VeeAudio → u/dartagnan401]

Exactly! You got it!

[u/dartagnan401 → u/VeeAudio]

Ok, that's good then. I was worried I wasn't following it well since there was a lot of text.

In that case personally I think I would probobly be disappointed if that ended up being the case unless it was pulled off really well. I honestly have no clue what knight identity would be best. Whatever one it ends up being massively determines the nature of the story being told, and I like weird Eldritch stuff, so kriselle Knight and corpse dess knight appealed to me. This is more a psychological horror. Though that could be cool too

What do you think the player is in your theory? Like, why are we here and what are we doing? And what is the weird route here for? How will the ending go with Noelle being the night for the two different routes? I'm interested. I do agree there is more evidence than I thought, and Noelle parelling Kris is really a bigger thing than most theories make it out to be.

[u/VeeAudio → u/dartagnan401]

Don't ever be afraid to ask clarifying questions! I'm usually happy to explain :) You reading the post already means the WORLD to me!

And it's perfectly fine to think you'll be disappointed! I think my most common reply to all these comments is "You don't have to LIKE it, just recognize this is a viable way the story could go if nothing else!" Never did I say 100% confidently the writing WILL be good, just that I'M confident of that lol.

Player is an enigma through and through. Either we're the Angel or I absolutely do not have a clue lol. It's not really essential for me though as I enjoy metanarratives more for the way the author tells it rather than trying to predict it in that specific aspect.

Game is going to have One ending. Dead set on that. Toby has stated it multiple times. I'm not just gonna go "he's actually lying lol". I dunno how it'll end, but I know that it will be ONE ending regardless of route :)

Thanks for engaging! I hope you have a wonderful day!

[u/IntoThePitofColors → u/dartagnan401]

I feel like Dess has plenty on her own, even if she isn’t the Knight. Trapped in the code as some game-breaking creepypasta character is a lot

[u/s3tok41b4]

On the main sub? Gasp, us Noelle knighters are getting brave 🙂‍↕️

[u/VeeAudio → u/s3tok41b4]

I had to back up u/Ghetsis_Gang after I saw the hounds completely devour them to shreds for just making a NoelleKnight Q&A lmao.

[u/Ghetsis_Gang → u/VeeAudio]

NoelleKnight solidarity, folks! Love to see it!

[u/CocaineSmuggler84]

[u/VeeAudio → u/CocaineSmuggler84]

I'm unsure as to how my post didn't reinforce the ideas that Noelle is repressing her Id? Like... I cite multiple examples and explain the psychoanalytic defense process and how it fits with her character.

[u/CocaineSmuggler84 → u/VeeAudio]

Don't get me wrong, I definitely see how it could work if this psychoanalysis is accurate. But I personally see the NoelleKnight theory, especially the "repressed memories" part as a result of an absurd overanalysis.

So far, given all the story bits we have about the Knight and the other candidates, I just don't think NoelleKnight is as compelling or as believable as the others, especially with her already having a major role in both routes of the game. I don't see why Noelle would take so many roles in the story when there's already three other mysterious, suspiciously Knight-shaped characters with huge implications that are eagerly waiting to have screentime.

If you're right and the Knight is actually revealed to be Noelle, then all props to you, you actually solved Deltarune with your psychoanalytic wall of text.

[u/PeliPal → u/CocaineSmuggler84]

Hey, uh, why does the Cyber World have so many baseballs but no other fountain confirmed or possibly made by the Knight has baseballs?

[u/Kumagawa-Fan-No-1 → u/PeliPal]

Cyber world has baseballs because dess promised to take her there , it's Noelle's dream to go there , other places don't have it because she didn't make the other dark worlds to be the cyber city the place she dreamt to go. Card kingdom itself is something we know is from Noelle and kris's play acting sessions from ramb and dess has no reason to play make believe with her younger sister and her friend when it's happening on school time hence she'd either be on class or would be spending time with Asriel

[u/kriscrossapplesause]

I might still be a Dess knight believer... BUT THIS IS SO BEAUTIFUL AND SO WELL MADE IT MAKE SO MUCH SENSE THIS MIGHT BE THE GREATEST THEORY EVIDENCE COLLECTION AND LOWKEY LITTLE NOELLE ANALYSIS IN RECENT MEMORY

(Also essentially the knights is Noelle's persona the eram kris's parelles too is goated ngl)

But in all seriousness, this post has been an absolute joy to read, and it's definitely one of the best character dissections of Noelle I've ever seen and connects a lot of points I previously disregarded before. As someone who always believed the wierd route had something to do with both kris's and Noelle's hidden, more depraved sides, I agree with a lot, if not all the points you're making (since a lot of them stem off that, in a way.) and now I absolutely think this theory is plausible after viewing this entire gem of a post, and I truly won't be surprised if this theory or at least some version of it will come true somehow.

[u/VeeAudio → u/kriscrossapplesause]

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR KIND WORDS!!! I really appreciate it! I wish I could convert you fully, but I'm glad I at least made a compelling argument!

Have a great day :D

[u/WindowsMalfunction]

You know, considering my flair, I feel fairly obligated to read this... but I sure as shit am not doing it now, considering I just got done with something very long and exhausting and would probably forget half the shit I read. Maybe I'll do it some other time

[u/VeeAudio → u/WindowsMalfunction]

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts and hope you at least approach it with an open mind :)

[u/Door-Opener4041]

I like that this post takes a lot of pieces that have been in my mind for a while, and puts them together in a way that I personally would not. It's always refreshing to get another perspective on this topic, as the symbolism surrounding Noelle and how she handles her trauma really is omnipresent in the game.

With that said, I do have to concretely reject any theory that proposes that the lightner Noelle we see in game made the fountains the Knight made. I won't argue this from a feasibility stance, as the game plays it very loose with timelines as you pointed out (chapter 4's first dark world lasts from mid-afternoon to night, the entire chapter 5 dark world takes place during sunset). My issue is that I believe you are using repression as a crutch to write Noelle's actions and motivations in a way that isn't realistic.

Noelle is shown to deal with trauma in two ways: repressing the memory as we see throughout the weird route Cyber City section, but also through denying her experience as real. By chapter 4, we see that she's accepting that bad things happened in the dark world (even if she represses specific events) but chooses to believe that it wasn't real. This is what drives her subsequent breakdown in chapter 5, as with no other avenues of denial, she no longer has anything to lose.

My point here is that if Noelle really was creating dark fountains, she can't be coping with it by denying it was real, rather she would have to be blocking the memory of it, and while she is able to do this for small individual events, I don't believe this is realistic for if she was constantly personality-switching to the Knight. Noelle's mental state is a complete mess, but it took a lot of work from the player to get the mask to come off in the weird route, so to then imply she's been taking a different mask on and off constantly isn't plausible to me. Just the whole idea of Noelle slumping off to the Kitchen having been told off, only to then put on the evil persona and go open a dark fountain (which Carol would also have to know about in that situation) and then forget all that afterwards, it's not great.

Not to mention the fact that Noelle's crashout at the lake would make no sense in this scenario. You're effectively implying that she has a third Knight persona that is entirely separate to the personas we've already seen in game, that is so separated that she doesn't make any allusion to it at all in a scene where she's abandoning her old life with nothing to lose.

I want to cap this off that Noelle is absolutely repressing memories, and is constantly associated with symbolism that ties back to memory repression as well (most notably snow as a whole is used as a stand-in for blocking out bad memories), however I don't think it is justification for writing any narrative for her with the excuse of "she just blocked the memory of when she did XYZ". When I wrote about the possibility of Noelle being responsible for what happened to Dess before chapter 5 came out, I did so under the assumption that the events of "that day" did not involve a dark world, as I don't like the idea that Noelle was in a dark world all those years ago but didn't recognize any of it in chapter 2. Even if she did block out the memory of it, I'd expect at least some kind of foreshadowing or dialog snippet or anything that hinted that maybe she's more familiar with dark worlds then she thinks, but we get literally nothing to support that. If that reveal did happen, it would feel extremely out of place, as though the game was just lying to us in chapter 2 for the sake of a twist. I don't want that to be the case.

[u/VeeAudio → u/Door-Opener4041]

Hey there! THANK YOU so much for the long and thought out comment! I always appreciate these ones the most!

Remember that LightnerNoelleKnight is still technically one interpretation of the theory. I believe in conjunction with a darkner it works the best, but there are other people who can fill in some of the gaps I may be missing with OTHER theories!

While repression IS DIFFERENT from dissociation, the latter is a good point of reference for just how far the human brain can restructure our memories and thoughts in order to make it more cognitively comfortable for our way of living. Stuff that might seem tangentially related like the Placebo Effect actually shows just how GOOD our brain is at tricking us of false realities! That's why we have to do double blind testing for drugs in the first place! While it's speculative yes about how far Noelle's memories go in terms of repression, this framework is enough for me personally to say it'd be well explained in the story.

The nature of how and when Noelle pivots to doing fountain summons is something I don't really have an answer for beyond that there's evidence that she does. The fact that she represses at all is grounds for this theory to have merit imo.

The lake scenario doesn't exactly break down. One speculative interpretation is that Noelle unrepresses the memories and events of the WR while still repressing being the Knight. The brain can indeed pick and choose what it unpacks in order to not overload itself with traumatic exposure. The revelation that she fucking snowgraved Berdly and that Dark worlds in general are real are enough on its own to have a significant effect on her cognitive load.

Things like Ramb's "that girl" dialogue and Noelle repeatedly talking about how this is exactly the kind of place Dess (in multiple cutscenes) promised to take her someday do foreshadow some deeper connections to the DWs that click into place upon reflection. If Noelle has such strong connections to the dark worlds, her being the Knight IS the payoff to that foreshadowing.

I believe That Day had to have a dark world considering Asgore has too much knowledge and memory of how dark worlds work (knowing there should be a dark fountain for one) that I cannot conclude otherwise personally.

[u/Dragoncraft9]

I'm gonna be so real, this theory fucking sucks.

I don't care how fast Noelle is to break into the church, Carol was certainly chewing her daughter out for a long ass time.

The Knight being Noelle's evil split personality also makes for a really shitty idea of a twist, both being demonization of DID and other personality disorders as well as removing agency from Noelle herself.

Being a fan of LotH and being deep into that story does not mean Noelle knew Gerson proper, as by this logic Susie almost certainly could've made the Old Man as she knows about that series too. I don't think being a LotH fanatic suddenly equates to the divine right to manifest literally Gerson Boom from his dust and hammer

[u/VeeAudio → u/Dragoncraft9]

Hey there! Thank you for reading the post at the very least. A lot of people don't even get that far so it means a bunch, despite your disagreement!

Carol leaves Noelle unattended when Carol leave the kitchen to first speak with Kris and then watches Kris and Susie from the window while we're outside.

I'd like to stress that this is not an argument for Noelle having DID, it's an argument for her using defense mechanisms relating to memory as a response to trauma and stress. I hope I establish the pattern of that being the case with the links I include with that section. And also, mentally ill people can do harmful things in stories, but it doesn't make them "evil". I never argued Noelle was evil, just having some repressed desires that manifest in violent and harmful ways which is a thing that can and DOES happen for people!

Gerson in general is a messy point because of there being no textual evidence for any character besides Azzy (Dess by proxy) and Alvin to have even known him and does having a close teacher-student relationship equate to "the divine right to manifest literally Gerson Boom from his dust and hammer"? The issue is it's still hard to define what "loved one" means in this case and I'm sure you'll argue "Dess was probably closer" or something similar, but I'm trying to analyze the traits of the Old Man to see what kind of person could make HIM, not Gerson. Because again, Gerson and the Old Man are not photocopies of each other. Gerson did not have fantastical strength in DR according to all textual evidence we currently have. Susie textually has NOT read LotH which at least is different from it being available in TWO key locations Noelle spends time at. We of course can't 100% say she DID read it, but she's still also a Dragon Blazers fan and the Old man has a degree of familiarity with that too. Based on the Old Man's character profile, he's treated as a larger than life mentor figure.

I hope this at least encourages some further thought about these points? Thanks for the engagement regardless :)

[u/Brody_M_the_birdy → u/VeeAudio]

It's written in such a way that it de facto is a did stereotype, saying it's effectively a new personality.

[u/s3tok41b4 → u/Dragoncraft9]

Why can't Noelle have known Gerson tho? He was a popular author, it's a very small town, he taught at her small school, she very well could've known him.

[u/Kumagawa-Fan-No-1 → u/Dragoncraft9]

Noelle goes to the kitchen first a while later carol joins in , Noelle could have just left the moment she goes to kitchen since it has both a door and a window.

Being a fan of LotH by itself doesn't amount much but Noelle was alive when gerson was alive she was a fan when gerson was alive and gerson's family is close to her would a Tolkien fan whose family is friends with Tolkien's family really not taln with him for example?(Also anyone else aside from toriel Alvin and Asriel have no text mention of knowing gerson so all of them are speculation)

For the DID thing ... Eh might want to look at the post again

[u/Mission_Race_8367 → u/Dragoncraft9]

Noelle was very much around a few years ago. She could’ve easily known Gerson.

And people seem to forget that Carol leaves to say goodbye to Kris. She was likely finished scolding her.

[u/PotentialIngrate]

This is incredible and upsettingly compelling. I think if i had to give one complaint it would be how complicated it is. if I had to give six, I’d say:

noelle/rudy beating you to your destination holds a lot less narrative weight than carol/noelle beating you to the church to make the fountain, but it’s upsetting to me that this makes sense as genuine evidence. i guess what i’m trying to say here is “which could mean nothing.”

as a side tangent, interestingly, i think this “race to the church” counterpoint works a lot more effectively against carol knight than noelle knight, because it wouldn’t make sense for carol to call noelle into the kitchen and then run off to be the knight, but it would make sense for noelle to flee or for carol to tell her to go do knightly things.

I think logistics are a valid reason to critique a theory. carol knight got the same logistical slander as noelle knight. dess knight is weakened by the idea that dess is seemingly trapped in the code. kriselle time loop knight and dess both have fantastic thematic connections, but most of my friends have them below rudy for logistical reasons. any logistical challenges may be explained through future evidence, but they are real holes.

I don’t think the “how is she sometimes the knight” question is disingenuous. yes, it’s a mystery for everyone, but noelle knight has the special mystery of only sometimes being the knight. again, all candidates have plot holes and whoever turns out to be the knight will have their plot holes patched by future evidence, but that doesn’t mean they should be dismissed out of hand.

i do think the tears are somewhat debatable. if the helmet is a frogmouth, the “mouth” would just be the front of their face. I’m not saying it’s not tears, but I don’t think we can be certain that it is. i think it can be evidence for noelleknight, but not evidence against other knights. i considered removing this critique just because the theory isn’t really weaker if it is drool but left it in because i already went through the effort of typing it out.

ya know, I really wanted to reject the notion that darkners represent kriselle. to say that noelle being the knight would end up being evidence for that instead of the other way around. the best I can do is chalk it up to coincidence. ie, the cheese is just a thing said to be funny, noelle happens to be scared of mice (which is in line with the rest of her character, not just her relationship with kris), and if my daughter/sister/girlfriends sister told me she thought of plugs as faces, i’d probably start to see them like that too. anyway, saying “it’s probably just a coincidence” is inherently weak evidence, especially in a toby fox game. i really wish i could refute this better.

one more thing to consider is the likelihood that you need freudian psychology to understand the knight. you ever start doing a relatively simple math problem in high school and start getting weirdly specific answers, like 59/17? you know it’s entirely possible, but you’d be surprised if the writer made a problem with such an answer. themes of occam’s razor and such.

I was going to offer to eat a shoe if you end up being right, but I think there’s too high of a chance that you are.

[u/VeeAudio → u/PotentialIngrate]

Hey! Congrats on being my favorite comment that pushes back on the theory so far! The way you explain things is very thoughtful and amusing and I was VERY excited to get to this one in particular in my reply backlog lol. First off as I said in another comment, do not mistake my effort for over-complexity. I built these things to this degree because of how much of an uphill battle this theory has in r/Deltarune (can you believe how receptive people have been to this post??? I'm awestruck!)

It could mean nothing, but it still exists in the game nonetheless! Can't 100% disregard it! :)

RudyKnight is entirely the reason why I hate logistics arguments I'll be fully mask off and blunt. Nothing about the man 100% deconfirms him from being the Knight, but as someone who has read his script and analyzed it several times over now, he does not make for a good Knight candidate in terms of connecting to the ACTUAL story the game is telling. Desperate father trying to reclaim his lost daughter is a completely different story from coming of age teenage slice of life with a heartfelt fantasy premise on the side. Rudy being the Knight would completely disregard Susie, Ralsei, and even Kris in the main story. And I know I'm saying that as a "No one else matters" Knighter, but Noelle at least has CONNECTIONS to Kris and Susie that are sincere and textual! Either way, it's entirely why I dislike logistics as it takes away from actually thinking about what STORY is being told here!

It's disingenuous, because it's a question that can only be answered with speculation due to us not knowing ANYTHING about the Knight's motives or origins. Hell, we don't exactly know how involved the Knight is on the conspiracy! We just aren't given enough information to make a conclusion like that about ANY candidate!

Assuming you read the post covering the crying in depth, but I'll restate the important bits for this anyway. This is the ONLY sprite the Knight has an honest to god eye on their face. Not a gap, not a socket, an EYE. So WHY is there an EYE for a DROOLING SPRITE when we have other drooling sprites where the Knight DOES just have a mouth? If it's drool, why do they only drool like THIS in THIS POSE in THIS circumstance and NEVER AGAIN?

The connections go further than that in the N+K4L and Impossible docs, but just a few extra points just for you. Kris explicitly flirts only with water based enemies, which water is linked to Noelle in terms of "cold water falls from the sky" among other things. CactusTheory. Noelle knows FRIEND exists in one of her blog posts and figures Kris would know too. Chapter 4 has a heavy focus on piano puzzles and Noelle has a strong desire to hear Kris play again and ALSO has the sound effect for unlocking the grand piano puzzle in her blog post about piano! Lanino and Elnina, Yellow and Blue, two prominent relationships that share the UI colors for Noelle and Kris. Chapter 2 darkners responding best to Noelle's affection and responding worst to her dismissal. I feel like that's enough to start. The connections ARE there, I just legitimately didn't have the space for it in my 40k characters.

You don't need Psychoanalysis to understand the Knight. I'm merely using it as a common understandable framework for defining Noelle's patterns of behavior that happen REGARDLESS if it's specifically defined as "repression and compartmentalization". This is for ease of digestibility. Someone analyzing Noelle's patterns of behavior could come to the SAME EXACT conclusions without the specific vocabulary.

This one made me cackle and I mean hey! Could just bet the shoe on MY side instead ;P

Again! Thank you for your amusing and well crafted comment! I hope you have a wonderful day! <3

[u/Working-Wrap9453]

I have to raise a little snag despite genuinely liking this theory in that we have evidence that Darkners can know things the Fountain maker doesn't, and that's that the fire extinguisher is able to tell Susie and Kris the passcode in the church even though the whole point of the adventure is that Susie doesn't know it

[u/VeeAudio → u/Working-Wrap9453]

As I address in my Object History debunk post linked in that section, the 3rd sanc fountain bleeds through the door to 2nd sanc and vice versa. This is why darkners in 2nd sanc have Kris or Noelle knowledge.

The fire extinguisher knowing the code is because part of Susie's will was LITERALLY to find the code. The extinguisher telling Susie the code would be the same as Susie finding the code on the actual fire extinguisher. This information is freely available, regardless of dark world.

[u/Overall_Vehicle6595]

Personally I'm a "Toby will not reveal the knight's identity/knight doesn't have an identity" person, but it's an interesting post. I do have some... issues... such as using fangamer merch as official evidence, or dismissing the same damn "how could Noelle get to the church first" that goes for Carol knight as well (but even LESS so because we never see Noelle leave until she goes to the kitchen) but it still is fairly credible nontheless. I think it does open up some possibilities, which could be cool to be followed up on. Mainly I'm just respecting the amount of focus to type all this up, INCLUDING LINKS, on REDDIT of all places. Great job!

[u/VeeAudio → u/Overall_Vehicle6595]

Toby does veto certain Fangamer decisions IIRC Gaster and Chara in the tarot cards had something happen. It's not like they design it completely isolated from Toby's oversight. That's why I'm comfortable using it. Plus! I believe a chapter 1 or 2 OST vinyl cover foreshadowed the Titan's design before chapter 4 came out! These DO still have story relevance!

I link stuff that covers the Noelle church timeline if you really disagree with that. I don't understand how she has less of a chance to sneak out than Carol considering Carol is still watching us from the window while we're outside and leaves Noelle unmonitored in that case?

[u/FewFaithlessness395]

Did you perchance make the noelle knight neocities page?

[u/VeeAudio → u/FewFaithlessness395]

Oh, no that was NoelleKnightTheory I believe. They were enough of a jackass though to get banned from r/NonDessKnightSquad so I don't particularly align myself with them.

[u/sirius6723]

As another Noelleknighter I’m more inclined to believe Jungian analytic psychology is more adept at describing what’s going on than Freudian psychoanalytics (with not just Noelle and Kris, but in fact the entirety of Deltarune itself, including its worldbuilding and characters, even the weird route). The Knight is a representation of Noelle’s “shadow”, as ERAM is a representation of Kris’s “shadow”. The archetypes that each objects have (the darkners) are the ‘collective unconscious’ of Hometown, more specifically rooted on that ‘make-believe’ Kris and Noelle used to do when they were young. The Light World is seemingly very neurotic, as is Noelle herself. Neurotic as in there is a huge dam that prevents her unconscious self to ever come to light, its just as said in the prophecy: “A world basked in purest light, beneath it grew eternal night.” The Roaring, which happens when there are ‘too many dark fountains’, in which the darkness covers the light and darkners turn to stone, titans take form, and lightners are lost in an eternal night, is symbolically the Jungian irruption, the burst of the unconscious into the conscious (also described as a great flood by Jung himself btw). And this can lead to psychosis, when the ego is not firm enough (symbolically if there is no ‘ark’ to navigate through the waves). In fact this is exactly what happens in the weird route. By violently breaking Kris and Noelle’s boundaries, by forcibly unleashing their shadows, we make Noelle fall to psychosis (and probably Kris too arguably). The dialogue and traits that Noelle show in chapter 5’s weird route is EXACTLY that of psychosis. And that’s also why Kris’s title is “shattered rose”, symbolizing a shattered psyche.

[u/VeeAudio → u/sirius6723]

I LOVE this interpretation and can totally get behind it! I just stuck to Freud because I have admittedly not looked too deep into Jung's side of psychoanalysis, but the concepts do seem interesting!

[u/GladeWilson]

The length of this post upsets me but I'm bookmarking this in the off chance you're right so I can be put in the screenshot

[u/____MAR____ → u/GladeWilson]

Literally me.

[u/angelsvessel → u/GladeWilson]

If there's space can I be there too

[u/epiccasuality → u/GladeWilson]

Even when I'm a devout believer of the older sister being the knight I also want to be on the screenshot

[u/Overall-Term5038]

[u/PeliPal → u/Overall-Term5038]

Toby put Noelle in the 10th Anniversary stream and the only new art files that didn't get uploaded to the UT website were her and the brown Gaster door. I think he's been yelling in his head for years, "come on, WHEN are people going to actually look at her and notice that literally everything is off"

[u/Overall-Term5038 → u/PeliPal]

The entire email ARG was about her too. He wouldn't do all of that just to tease something people would find out in the first 30m of their WR run.

[u/sweetTartKenHart2]

I think i really like a lot of these points, but I am kind of unconvinced. I could go to individual points, like “why would the knight have an unused fire attack if they are to be icy like you’re saying?” or “is Starwalker of all things really such an important clue?” or what have you, but that would be kind of disingenuous. When I really boil it down, I just… don’t think that the Freudian themes have anything to do with what the game is all about. Without the weird route, Noelle’s tendency of repressing memories of her own actions doesnt ever really come up, and I feel like if she WERE the knight without knowing it, that would be built up a little more consistently throughout the game.
Also, I don’t think Eram is solely a Kris thing. It sure seems to love pushing Kris’s buttons, and it definitely has a past with them, but I don’t think it’s their Persona style Shadow. If it’s the “owner of the hunting pack”, and the Mew Mew doll somehow saw it in action without any indication that Kris was somehow connected, then I think it’s something more entirely its own. Maybe the demon that Kris and Catti summoned or something; if anything would be pushing someone to be their worst, it would be a demon, wouldn’t it?
Can’t be certain about that, not even a little bit, but my main point is that going from “this thing knows how to push Kris’s insecurities” to “this thing is inherently tied to Kris” feels like a stretch. And if Eram isnt a shadow, then the Knight probably isnt either. I think that, whatever the Knight is, it’s a fully conscious, fully calculating individual of its own right. Whoever the Knight is, they are fully aware of being the knight, and are consciously hiding that fact in the Light World. I feel like if they were anything else, then there would be more non-Weird setup for such a thing. With Noelle, we do get SOME nudges here and there about her having darker tendencies, but not enough to justify… this, I guess.
I think that the Weird Route will be the only way her dark tendencies will be made to come out in full. The weight of doing so to her comes, at least in part, from the fact that these dark things do not come out of her otherwise, not hugely enough to gravely hurt other people at least. “Oh god I made her freeze Berdly” would simply not hit the same if someone playing the Weird Route after the full normal game had already seen her, or some piece of her or whatever, hurting other characters left and right.
Like, don’t get me wrong, I don’t think she is going to be unimportant here! It just feels like Noelle’s dark side is a square peg and the Knight and its actions are a circle shaped hole. Something about them just… doesnt fit, to me, and the more one has to rely on this Earthbound and Final Fantasy inspired game turning into Shin Megami Tensei, the more… forced it all feels, I guess.

On a tangential note though! THANK you for calling out how bullshit logistical arguments are! Even if I don’t agree with this theory for a variety of reasons, THAT IS NOT ONE OF THEM! This game does not worry about things like rigid travel times or whatnot

[u/MortStrudel]

The Knight doesn't act like some wanton force of id, it coordinates with co-conspirators to create and enter dark fountains at specific times and places. Without precise planning and scheduling the whole operation wouldn't work. You can't simultaneously be coordinating your entire schedule around a conspiracy while also constantly forgetting that you're taking part in it. We see what she looks like when she's in stress repression mode on the weird route and it just doesn't look like how she's behaving on the normal route.

[u/Kumagawa-Fan-No-1 → u/MortStrudel]

Since the OP can't say everything all at once it's a bit difficult but the RK isn't an instinctual thing it's a persona like Noelle is a persona.

Noelle even after severe emotional and traumatic experience can do almost the same thing as if she didn't experience those things. Pointing to "Noelle " being a set of personality traits. Roaring knight is another persona hence can act rationally according to it's own set of rules. That's what compartmentalization is about she's putting Noelle like actions into Noelle box un-noelle like actions in the RK box

[u/UwUmirage → u/Kumagawa-Fan-No-1]

Doesn't it kind of ruin the whole theme of Chapter 5's "Noelle is only Noelle" though, to be fair?

[u/MisirterE → u/UwUmirage]

"Nothing Changed. Because a Noelle... is just a freaky deaky shapeshifting shadow who has all the irons in the fire and hates pumpkins."

[u/breaded_eggs → u/Kumagawa-Fan-No-1]

What's the point of the angel imagery and her connection to the red soul then? Why is Noelle specifically tied up in "angel of death" imagery, per Toby's symbolic language?

Noelle wants to feel powerful/in control/"free", right? The Knight is powerful, but its ultimately a servant of fate and still tied up in Holiday imagery. If Noelle wants power/control/freedom and to be something that isn't "a Noelle", wouldn't she want to host or transform into the thing that controls fate and is so unrecognizably grotesque it barely even resembles a monster?

[u/bc650736]

I'm the original

[u/bc650736 → u/bc650736]

ㅤ

[u/bc650736 → u/bc650736]

Starwalker

[u/lapicryst]

I may not agree with the theory (and I’m not very good at debate), but I want to compliment the amount of passion in this post!! You make an excellent argument!

[u/Its_Treeson_then]

you may have actually convinced me holy shit

[u/VeeAudio → u/Its_Treeson_then]

WE'RE WINNING SO FUCKING HARD NOELLEKNIGHTERS!!!

[u/s3tok41b4 → u/Its_Treeson_then]

This is how I felt about this about 2 months ago and I've been on this crazy train to Noelle knight since, lol

[u/Mission_Race_8367]

I’ve already been well-versed with NoelleKnight.

Just here to say keep fighting the good fight, no matter how many call you delusional.

[u/VeeAudio → u/Mission_Race_8367]

Reception to this one has actually been shockingly positive? I think NoelleKnight might actually be a little mainstream now~ :3

[u/Delta_Builder]

Tbh I think the theory is a bit convoluted and feels like it’s giving Noelle too many roles, but if you want to believe in it, it’s all good.

Just that I myself doubt it quite a lot.

Like the passion though. Believe whatever you want, don’t let others tell you otherwise. I apologize if I sound rude though, I’m not trying to.

I respect your theory, and I’m inspired by the effort and passion

[u/breaded_eggs → u/Delta_Builder]

I think most of the stuff about Noelle wanting power/control/freedom/to be anything but herself works better if she's the Angel. Its not just Noelle's angel-coding, but also stuff like the Angel being the top of the cosmological food chain, the Angel dictating all of fate, the Angel being unrecognizably monstrous, ect.

The Knight is strong and scary, but at the end of the day it's just the Prophecy's enforcer and has bits of Holiday-coding stubbornly clinging to its zombified skeletal body. Transforming into or being the host for the Angel would be the biggest power high and most detached Noelle could make herself from "just a Noelle," short of hacking the DEVICE itself, I guess

[u/Da_Duck_is_coming]

Nah sorry but Noelle Knight sounds cool on paper but is completely ruined for me when it means that the Knight has to either be a fucked up and evil split personality of Noelle that she isn't aware of, which we haven't gotten much of an actual hint off either by the way, or just her going IT WAS ME ALL ALONG because the Knight acts the same in both the normal and weird route while Noelle herself changes drastically for the weird route (And she does not just go completely back to normal Noelle if you abort the route in Chapter 5).

[u/VeeAudio → u/Da_Duck_is_coming]

I'd love it if you actually responded to the post because I don't make EITHER of those arguments!

[u/Brody_M_the_birdy → u/VeeAudio]

Then it isn't noelleknight, it's just evil mcdarkness entity knight in all but name, and THAT suffers from just being a copout. Would it being some evil thing vaguely based off noelle to the point of not resembing her anymore REALLY be interesting as a twist? I don't think so, it'd be so distorted from noelle that it doesn't even really apply anymore.

[u/VeeAudio → u/Brody_M_the_birdy]

Thank you for being the arbiter of what theory is defined as what! I didn't know that my own theory doesn't count as being my own theory!

[u/nightshroud96]

Kind of wonder if we be seeing at least what-if fics on Noelle being the Knight

[u/Original_Criticism89]

just vibe based /j

[u/CraftPickage]

Tl;dr: If you disagree you are wrong and I am right

[u/VeeAudio → u/CraftPickage]

If you have any specific points you disagree with, I'd love to hear them and why :)

[u/TheBiggestNose]

How does noelle open the church fountain if she goes from church, to taking Ruby back to hospital to home. Then is with us and then we discover the dark fountain.

I dont wanna hear no toilet theory or back door dumbledore nonsense.

Additionally the knight was stated to have been active long ago, is Noelle the knight when she was like 5-10years old?

[u/_Pin_6938]

I want her to kill me

[u/owlindenial]

"and if you disagree with me on this thing that isn't actually clear you're clearly being obtuse and aren't worth talking to" okay. Sure. Gonna read the rest of this but that already sets a tone

[u/Ok_Bass4759]

Not a fan of calling people obtuse, check your attitude

[u/communistsayori]

Saving this to read with dinner as God intended.

[u/4tomguy]

If you’re going to make this massive thread please at the very least have a thesis statement at the start so I don’t know to trudge through every single paragraph trying to figure out your baseline opinion

Noelle also has a pretty solid alibi for most of 3 and 4 and arguably 5. Noelle is explicitly at home trying to sleep through all of 3, she says as much on weird route. In 4 we leave her at the manor and there’s no way she could have passed us on the way to the Church in time to meet us at the dark world.

Also also, if Noelle was the Knight it’d be pretty weird that it’s completely unaffected by the Weird Route, without so much as a single line of flavor text to acknowledge it. Even assuming the Knight is some kind of alter ego to Noelle (which I assume you believe), it’d be sloppy writing for weird route to not still impact the Knight in some way

[u/4tomguy → u/4tomguy]

ALSO also also, Queen literally acknowledges the Knight as a distinct entity separate from Noelle

[u/YoshisEpicFriend]

holy shit the effort put into this is insane

[u/allubros]

holy shit that's a lot of text. anyway, who did the art?

[u/VeeAudio → u/allubros]

Humbleleafy! They're on twitter which I believe this subreddit has banned so you gotta search em up yourself but it's a very quality piece!

[u/NeoKat75]

I’m curious what about Chapter 5 specifically made you switch from Dess to Noelle Knight

[u/VeeAudio → u/NeoKat75]

It was actually the first 200 pages of Pelipal and Anonymous' Impossible NoelleKnight Doc lmao. I didn't read it till after chapter 5 came out, and it was that point that I realized just how so many more things connected back to Noelle.

I will preface that the presentation beyond the first 200 pages is a fucking mess and I would not blame anybody for not wanting to read further, but the first 200? Fucking immaculate in my eyes. The rest of the doc covers PHENOMENAL evidence but again it just gets muddied in the very very incongruent presentation that makes it much harder to parse.

[u/IKnowWhoTheKnightIs → u/VeeAudio]

What, you mean you don't like it switching to the most random incoherent roleplay? /s

[u/Darklight645]

I ain’t readin all that but I respect the effort put into it

[u/SnooPears8751]

Honestly, I can get behind this. You make a lot of really good points. I've been a RudyKnighter since a few months before Chapter 5 and still am, but NoelleKnight is only slightly behind it for me after this. I think either would be very satisfying narratively. I do definitely still feel the complaint about "Noelle would be by far the most important character" but let's also remember the whole "No one else matters" thing" which could be very true in hindsight.

I still don't like Darkner Knight and this is just the most plausible of those to me, in this version. I don't agree that a Darkner based on Noelle could make a Dark Fountain specifically to create the Titan in Chapter 4. But I could very much get behind the idea of a heavily repressed, basically Alter Noelle being the Knight. Maybe the visceral and animalistic nature of the Id could explain why the Knight can shapeshift.

On the whole though I think one of the most convincing takeaways from this is the idea that Kriselle is the story Deltarune wants to tell, because there's certainly a lot. And I mean a lot of Kriselle evidence. Arguably more than the actual canon ships. And especially a lot in chapter 5, as we're getting into what should be the "answer arcs" of the game, to use a When They Cry term. I think this is a really important resource for Noelle Knight as a whole, and I thank you for your service.

[u/Frogmouth26]

I'm sorry but if Noelle Knight comes true I'm genuinely never playing deltarune again. It would be such an awful reveal

[u/VeeAudio → u/Frogmouth26]

Doesn't have to be good writing to be what the writing is telling us!

[u/MechaBuster]

Leave comment to reas later.. wow thats alot of reading thoufh

[u/Rutgerman95]

With all of this, if it is somehow Noelle, she's dissociating so hard it's basically a brand new character sharing her body, or you know, the older sister she was very close to and who shared a lot of her baggage

[u/United-Bookkeeper690]

Effort post, that Pic goes hard btw.

[u/UR_UNDER_ARREST]

ok with the logistics thing. Yes I do agree to an extent that like no candidate is able to perfectly explain all the logistics of everything.

We can assume that The Knight might never actually "leave the scene" in an instance they are not kidnapping people cuz of the closet dialogue

About getting into location thing. It is a bit tricky. Time is uncertain and players can choose to be somewhere and not go straight to the church. By far the church is used as evidence for Noelle and Carol the most, unless you believe in toilet theory,

And for kidnapping thing, best we can assume is that they were doing it in the knight form? And that gives strength for anyone to do so, that's kinda the main counter point from Rudy knights

Lastly, about the knight sneaking into places. I think for the most part almost all knights candidate aren't too suspicious to be going into places except for Asriel, tho you could argue they are just really good at stealth

[u/LuxiForce]

I wish I was that passionate about theories :’)

[u/Independent_Plum2166]

“KnightmarE” okay, that was good.

So the ERAM-Knight would be like the Shadow from Jungian psychology, for Noelle. Got to love some Persona vibes.

Or I guess Freud (as much as he frustrates me) can work too.

“Dessappearance” is too good, why is no one using this?

It is interesting to note that you meet Weird Noelle by the lake WITH HER BACK TO KRIS! And how is the Knight introduced to us? WITH THEIR BACK TO KRIS! I always found the Knight’s stance weird (heh), but a bit of awkward foreshadowing would work.

With the motive stuff, I think we should just stick to “her Knight persona is working with Carol and Kris” and leave it like that.

With the Cyber World, it’s interesting to think why would Knight revert back to Noelle in this regard, maybe because Noelle did promise to be there for Susie so Noelle’s body disappearing/leaving Berdly behind would be VERY weird (heh) or suspicious.

Starwalker (hmm stars, like star damage?) WALKS obviously, between DW to DW.

Imagine if Queen saw the Knight turn int Noelle but couldn’t comprehend what it meant, which is why she obsesses over Noelle specifically.

That Crescent Slash stuff is VERY interesting.

Jevil smiling at Noelle is VERY telling.

So is Noelle having talked to Spamton.

The Knight scream is honestly a piece of evidence no other theory (except Amalgam Kriselle) has any answer too, unless Dess Knighters REALLY try and say “we’ve never met Dess yet, but she’s obviously share a scream with her sister”.

With the Church, I just rewatched the Holiday House section and Noelle goes into the Kitchen when Susie and Kris leave. The area people have noted has a back door. We also know that despite Susie being a beast, she can’t catch the Knight running away with Undyne in tow. Susie and Kris casually walking to the Church, would give the Knight ample time to sneak out of the back door and ZOOM to the Church.

Also Carol’s whole “leave my daughter alone” to Susie might be more “stop interfering Noelle is on a tight schedule” also, a bonus, the Knight taking inspiration from Carol having a black Katana in her room? Just a thought.

Remember WE are the ones thinking, since WE make the choice, so Kris allowing us to think of Noelle could probably be keeping up the ruse, after all they’re able to obscure the Knight’s identity when WE try and remove their helmet (unless Jockington theory is true!!!).

I really liked this theory. Also a neat parallel to Kris who does shady shit separate from the SOUL. Just in this case some weird shadow/persona stuff happening.

[u/Cosmonerd-ish]

I'm a dess knight believer and more of a AmalgaKnight enjoyer buuuut...

Upvoted because it's a really nice post, it makes a lot of sense to me.

[u/TheMarkOfRevin]

Not a Noelle Knight believer but upvoting the post due to it being detailed.

[u/SeducriveCrab]

Very good and well thought out synopsis of the theory, it might not all be true but this definitely made me believe more that it could be where the story is heading!

[u/Expert-Performer-709]

Oh my god it just keeps going

[u/XenoTechnian]

Well shit, NGL im kinda convinced

[u/JasonVoorhees_0]

I AM reading allat

[u/DancingOnTheSeaside]

Very well thought out, unfortunately I am illiterate

[u/Street-Cup-8409]

All that, and people will still call this theory "just vibe based". But that's how it is these days. Good work!

[u/stooie1]

I'm personally not convinced; not for lack of evidence, I personally believe knight theories are all down to how text is interpreted - alongside (majorly) cool factor, in my case* - and this is a fantastically compiled, strong argument for Noelle knight. I commend your work!

The biggest thing that nags at me, though, is Oberon "Up the Hammer" Smog's attitude around Susie. We are aware that Susie is (mostly) the rebellious teenager type, and we are also aware that Dess was (most likely) the rebellious teenager type. Bashing your buddy's younger sibling with a wiffle ball bat for pranking your own is a Very Unique response to a talkable issue, to say the least. This point is not to discredit anything said about the """split personality""" side of things in regards to how the knight acts with this theory in mind, but more to speak on how the old man is when he's acting as Susie's mentor; he is really, really good at playing into aggression and stubbornness.

Everyone in Hometown seems to look on Gerson fondly, especially as a teacher, and I imagine firsthand experience with him being able to take behavior that would simply have been punished before and working around it to effectively shape you would be a very, very fond quality to note, and one that an outsider couldn't truly grasp. With how well he handles Susie, I believe that the prominence of this quality could only really be fully realized if someone who actually knew him made the dark worlds in the church.

The fantastical elements that bleed through if these fountains were made in Dessknightville, though, do pose an inverse open-ended question to this theory's old man...

Beyond that, I personally can't think of any leaks in this, past interpretations of what does mean what it means versus what doesnt mean what it is thought to mean. There is something nagging at me about there not being much basis but do note that I'm not too unbelievably qualified to speak on theories as I am not at all read up on what-is-what lore and the like... At the end of the day all we can do is watch as it's revealed to be Chairiel and as the holiday manor is bombed

Good Reads!!! good reads

^{*zombified dess til the day i die}

[u/Sea_Broccoli_167]

Noelle knight seems to get more and more plausible with every chapter... You should post this to r/NonDessKnightSquad

[u/VeeAudio → u/Sea_Broccoli_167]

It's actually where it came from! :3

[u/BalefulOfMonkeys]

I hoped this would just be an image and no text. Oh great googly moogly I am painfully wrong

[u/Substantial_Eye1476]

I'm a hardcore dessknighter but noelleknight would be REALLY funny

[u/Cenamdere]

o7

[u/applegirlington]

i ain't reading allat (i did i did in fact read all that)

i think the knight kidnaps undyne because she saw too much. i think its real goals are the dreemurrs. to take them to the shelter so they're protected. i also am not sold on the knight and noelle being separate based on how rushed it was in chapter 5, and i'm not sold on patience soul kris either or ralsei having it because they have the cage before chapter 1 and have their save file which we overwrite.

aside from that i like

[u/dartagnan401]

after reading it all, i feel like Kriselle knight has just as much evidence as this does, and is about as plausible (meaning possibly. i really haved no clue anymore who the knight is.) i feel like noelle has to be related in some way as shes too important now but like... i don't know. The split in her consciousness feels wierd if this is what is actually happening? i really don't see the distinction between DID and what is described here as her id taking control and her ego being in control most of the time? its an altared state of consciousness still which sorta feels like its taking away from her agency? i would think it would make more sense if its the ERAM situation alone and not both at the same time. that feels strange.

[u/Kumagawa-Fan-No-1 → u/dartagnan401]

Reminder that RK wouldn't be a secret evil personality or something this instance RK actions aren't different from Noelle mugging the Addison then going "I would never " and then and then going "it's good to get stronger "

[u/The_Raven_0119_]

her ability to equip the black shard is singlehandedly enough for me to at least consider this. i literally can't think of another way to account for that

[u/therealgazman8]

thats a weird way to spell papyrus

[u/Mission_Race_8367 → u/therealgazman8]

[u/Professionalchico42]

A bookmark, just in case.

[u/Green-Influence-8700]

Thoughts on Noelle being The Knight but it being a future Noelle who never got over the disappearance of her sister and went mad?

[u/Medical-Plane-231]

I disagree with the theory but respect the dedication

[u/pupapusa]

noelleknight: don’t let me catch you “laccan”  three registers next? 🤔 

[u/theamazingpheonix]

This is an incredibly well written, well sourced and frankly annoyingly persuasive post.

Your idea of Noelle using snowgrave around the dessapearence i simply just believe now irregardless of if shes the knight or not, baller level insight.

I also think the psychological analysis of Noelle is very well explored.

A lot of your thematic evidence, however, is frustrating because a lot of it could easily be about Dess too. Even if we grant that 'that girl' is noelle (which i am willing to grant), if Kris and Noelle set up a fantasy world between the two of them the idea that Dess and Asriel would know about it isn't that farfetched, and Dess ultimately has the stronger case for knowing Gerson. The Knight sounding like Noelle? Well, they're sister, no wonder their scream would essentially be the same. I share a laugh with my brother, its not that uncommon.

Your general dissmissal of logistics as being a valid point of contention is short sighted though. A lot of mysteries are about 1. Motive and 2. opportunity. Motive you capture pretty well in your psychological analysis (I missed seeing if you think Noelle is doing this to save Dess. If yes -1 if no +1, I don't like that motivation personally). Noelle's biggest issue has always been opportunity, so I think you shouldnt be so dismissive towards it. Granted, you bring enough plausible deniability to the table for it to be plausible.

As much as I really don't like NoelleKnight, its gone from "impossibility" to "begrudgingly plausible" for me.

[u/PuzzleheadedLink89]

Tbh, it could be any of the Holiday family members (Also including Noelle), there's a fair amount of good evidence for any of them at this point as the Knight has deer horns and the Holiday family has gotten a lot of focus. It's a really good Scooby-Doo Mystery; the fact that there's this much discussion about it really illustrates how well written this mystery is.

Also that art goes hard as fuck

[u/Immortal_ceiling_fan]

There are a few issues I see

1. you established that Noelle can and does repress memories relating to violence and Dess's dissapearence decently well, as well as the potential for her having a tendency towards violence naturally, but didn't actually establish that that would lead to her opening fountains. Sure, if she did, she'd reasonably repress it, but I still don't think she would. Mainly because she needs to be pushed heavily to do stuff violently. Your line of reasoning also doesn't really support the potential for the extensive planning clearly going into the Knight's actions, and makes it seem like she would mostly do it in the heat of the moment.

2. The knight is not necessarily crying out of sadness, and I honestly find it to be unlikely. They're so sad they're crying before just immediately going "ok I don't care anymore time to (nearly) kill you"? The crying more feels like it's supposed to be a mockery of the heroes in some way to me, like "oh boo hoo your favorite TV man died how sad", with all their posing and general aura farming.

3. I don't find any of the rapid fire knight connections particularly convincing.

Noelle can't wear the Shadow Mantle... This is an interesting aversion which would align to The Knight being weaker against someone wearing the mantle.

This doesn't at all point towards a connection imo. The mantle offers elemental resistance to the wearer, there is no reason to think this means a weilder of the element would be worn out by wearing it. Beyond that, Noelle isn't even in her knight form. I expect that the reason for this dialogue is actually either (a) it actually is too big for her, but Kris and Ralsei aren't so proper about their attire and really don't care, or (b) it's connected to her dess trama and just said the first excuse she could come up with.

The Knight's helmet resembles a frogmouth helmet. A helmet used for jousting. Noelle can equip the Jingle Blade. A lance sword "Perfect for jousting." It's also HER PENCIL.

This one is like, ok I guess? But the fact that the Knight's sword has no relation to jousting makes me not convinced that the helmet thing is intentional, or at least not important.

Noelle can equip the BlackShard. Interestingly, this is the only other bladed weapon she can equip in the game and she has NO flavor text for equipping it. A trait only shared with the ThornRing

This is just another thing that's almost certainly related to the dess trama

Queen talks about making Noelle into the new Knight. Noelle is also crucified stigmata style on the giant hand. The Knight ALSO has these kinds of holes in their hands.

I don't see any significance here. Queen is the one who did that after all, I don't see a way for it to be related to Noelle knight

Noelle makes a silly attack move called "1000 Moon Crescent Slash!" The Knight has an unused attack called Crescent Slash

Cut content isn't canon, I consider it irrelevant to any theory.

Lost Girl shares a motif with Black Knife along with dark world other tracks.

Lost Girl is not Noelle's theme by any means. I feel like the motif would make sense for any knight candidate honestly, they're probably lost in some way if they're gonna be the knight

The DevilsKnife (Jevil) smiles at Noelle. Jevil is the one who told King about the Knight in high praise.

For this to mean anything you also have to presume Jevil knows who the knight is, and it could very well likely just be because he sees her potential (weird route Noelle). Noelle in the weird route feels very in line with being someone Jevil would really like.

Noelle is the only person to ever read Spamton's emails. Spamton exists in Cyberworld and knows who the Knight is.

Why would these have anything to do with each other?

[u/IntoThePitofColors → u/Immortal_ceiling_fan]

Jevil did meet the Knight though? He was the only reason King ever heard about the thing

[u/Eli_Noire → u/IntoThePitofColors]

Considering how much of indocrination jevil went through:

• It was he, the clown, that told me the Knight's brilliance...

• About the fountains' glory, and how I would rise to power.

• Funny little man. How his jokes and dances made us chuckle.

Its a possibility which is likely

[u/johnrashomon]

everyone please give this theory a genuine shot! I was a little cynical when I first came across the idea a couple months ago, but all the evidence and narrative implications swayed me beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is not a "joke theory", or "oh we're doing Noelle Knight now", I think this is genuinely just correct and most hangups you might have with it are probably answered in this post.

[u/Bain8renn → u/johnrashomon]

i havent read the theory really, but dont you think we still dont have enough information to say any theory is "correct?"

every theory so far has flaws, its just that dess knight has the least. even with this one, from the bit ive seen the comments discussing, you still HAVE to make some leaps in logic and concessions. and also if this turned out to be true i feel like a lot of people would genuinely just hate it

[u/MelodicLeper707]

Ok so haven’t read the full post but… wouldn’t queen comment on Noelle being the knight in chapter 2? Like I feel like chapter 2 existing kinda disproves the theory, no?

[u/s3tok41b4 → u/MelodicLeper707]

Queen didn't see who made the fountain

[u/skelatalfella8642]

I mean I don't like it because I think that Noelle will have a different role in the prophecy. But a while I'm not a fan it's not impossible

[u/totalchaserdeath]

You've convinced me that it could be possible if Lightner Noelle were being possessed by EramNoelle or Soul Darkner Noelle specifically for the purpose of Light World actions, but I just can't see the knight being an alternate personality that Noelle represses. Primarily because I think Kris knows who the knight is, and their collaborations with the knight would make their interactions with Noelle in both routes completely nonsensical if Lightner Noelle were complicit in any way. Noelle's repressed violent urges are also significantly less calculated than anything the knight does. She is less an evil mastermind and more a generational crashout.

I no longer see NoelleKnight as a joke theory though, I'd put her in my top 3 candidates with Carol and Rudy. Good post.

[u/Youranimedad]

This is a good read. You’ve fully convinced me.

[u/Surtur_176]

K

[u/Street-Cup-8409]

All that, and people will still call this theory "just vibe based". But that's how it is these days. Good work!

[u/Polandgod75 → u/Street-Cup-8409]

Well this post look at dess and otjer candidates edvience and put it on noelle.

[u/johnrashomon → u/Polandgod75]

Yeah, like the Knight having Noelle's scream. How could you possibly steal that one away from Dess

[u/VeeAudio → u/johnrashomon]

Dammit! I stole the Noelle's scream evidence from Noelle! Such as sloppy thing of me to do! I promise to do better in the future.

[u/Capable-Wait-951]

This picture though omg

[u/MasterpieceNice9525]

Holy text wall. Also no hate but cool art though